I like where this is going.
Coming from a minmaxer from 1st edition days, I know Dex SHOULD be doing more for us, but it isnt. When I reread just crit, I felt like rerolling on the spot to not grab that 18.
As it stands, What would be optimal? Im somewhat racist against halflings and orcs, so I'd rather not be an orc and prefer human.
But meantime I figure put the +2 to str, and get highest str/cha with that. Every time you can pump up stats, are you going str and dex or str and cha?
Im only lvl18, after already deleting a lvl 13 rogue so no real care about going again. I already have been working on location awareness for Combat Advantage.
I consider this a design flaw. Sure str rogues were a thing in classic DnD. but this game says dex is primary and its not even close. I don't know why, or who did this.. but..
In regards to starting stats.
str is by far priority, then cha, and dex is the least. heck, dex is less useful then int.
str>cha>int>dex
str gives % damage. And stam regen, and dot resist. all 3 are very useful. stam for dodge rolling, in and out of aoe, as well as damage avoidance. lets you dps more, and catch runners. so even that is pretty nice.
dex gives crit, deflection at .5 per. Cha gives deflection at 1 per. and deflection is pretty meh in the first place. % chance for 25% damage reduction. as if we dont use impossible to catch on call either.
aoe resist from dex. again meh. its not like it helps any. either you live or you die. 10-15% doesnt help. avoid it entirely.
Seriously I would rather have the recharge from INT.
But lets talk damage.
skill coefficient x (weapon + power) x str % bonus x random % buffs x combat advantage / armor=damage
damage x crit severity= crit damage.
Its important to note that each increases damage multiplicative.
a 10% str bonus increases your total damage 10% more or less.
So, why is str so strong? well, because its alone.
20 str gives you 10% increased damage.
20 dex gives you 10% increased crit chance. 10% increased crit chance however is NOT 10% damage increase. astute observers would note that 75% crit severity means that 10% is reduced to 7.5%. However, that is still not complete.
you have 5% base crit, and how much crit rating? dex's crit % adds into your crit rating, and the 5% base.
lets say for a moment you have a 1000 damage attack. and it crits for 175% damage, or 1750. You have a 50% crit chance, from 5% base, 10% dex, and 35% from crit rating. 50% chance of that 1750 is 1375 average damage.
lets add 1 dex.
1000 damage attack, 1750 crit, 51% of the time, 1382.5 average. .54% damage increase.
Lets add 1 str instead.
1000 was 20 str, so we need to remove that 10% first. base is really 909.
909x 10%=1000, 909x 11% is 1009 , and 1766 crit. 1387.5 average. a .9% damage increase over 1375 average.
Each point of dex crit is devalued by the 5% base crit, and crit rating.
adding 1% of crit via dex is a drop in the bucket to the 30-60% of total crit.
meanwhile adding 1% str is adding to a much smaller pool of 3-20%.
disc of str ADDs 3-6% btw. which does devalue each point of str.
20 str, and disc of str feat, is as if you have 26 or 27 str. (it actually appears to give 7, not 6%)
Can you account for the fact that crit has synergy with the executioner tree?
Upon crit, one of your next attacks gets 30% of your crit severity added to it.
25% crit severity with stealth, 10% more after a shocking execution.
Also, how does CHA compare to DEX? If you assume a rogue goes STR primary, then should they follow with dex or cha?
I guess i've never seen a good explanation on how 1% combat advantage exactly works...
Can you account for the fact that crit has synergy with the executioner tree?
Upon crit, one of your next attacks gets 30% of your crit severity added to it.
25% crit severity with stealth, 10% more after a shocking execution.
Also, how does CHA compare to DEX? If you assume a rogue goes STR primary, then should they follow with dex or cha?
I guess i've never seen a good explanation on how 1% combat advantage exactly works...
while higher crit severity does help.
in no way does that address the issue that dex is completely trivialized by crit rating.
Look at the effect of your stats... I went with a half orc for str bonus, took the highest STR/CHA combo i could and dropped dex as much as i could
Highest I'm seeing is 15 str, 15cha and 17 dex, but 12 int worth noting
Some of the potential combinations on Half Orc
S/Ch/D/I
15, 15, 17, 12
15, 15, 18, 11
17, 13, 17, 12
17, 13, 18, 11
So what would be better, 17str over 13 cha or the even 15, 15? And in the the case of 17 dex/11int vs 18dex/12 int, 1 dex worth 1 int?
All I can say is that I can't stand the thought of playing a Half Ork Rogue just because a bit of extra strength will pump my overall DPS by some percentage.
I'm a Dex-based Halfling Rogue, & though I'm still utterly clueless about Stealth, I seem to do OK anyway, I have fun, & that's all that matters to me.
Game on!
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
I'm a Dex-based Halfling Rogue, & though I'm still utterly clueless about Stealth, I seem to do OK anyway, I have fun, & that's all that matters to me.
Game on!
Bah! I'm not that cool with the idea of being an Orc, but I'd rather be a full orc then a half-halfing. Midgets.
And fun? Game on?
Bah! Games are contests. Contests have winners. Winners have to do stuff that non-winners don't do.
Bah! I'm not that cool with the idea of being an Orc, but I'd rather be a full orc then a half-halfing. Midgets.
And fun? Game on?
Bah! Games are contests. Contests have winners. Winners have to do stuff that non-winners don't do.
We obviously won.
We are having fun enjoying a game instead of stressing out on it as if it were a contest.
Long but very well written argument. On thing I was wondering though is how good the additional deflection chance from DEX is versus AOE at endgame. Sure you might do less damage, but have more survivability - would this be worth it?
Currently I am running a DEX/STR based rogue on the basis that I heard that AOE is a pain at end-game and this gives me more consistent damage then investing in CHA, at least when I solo.
Any comments, damnyounames or anyone else.
That right there is where imo... when you step outside of talking purely damage (which is certainly one of the first things ppl want to focus on and look at) that there really does begin to be a far greater value lost, possibly, with going so high into str at teh detriment of other Ascores rogues are designed to synerigize with. I just skimmed through the 2 pages written since your post but I just saw something that might address it in a better way than I could do.
It is true... there is more to the game than damage. And esp when it comes to survival in pvp or high end epic content, that rogue that is dead who "could" have been popping off enormous damage is less value than the rogue that survived to tell the tale. In that regard, I think the jury can only reasonable be called "out" still until we see more in game experience and chop it up a bit.
FUn to take look at, even still I too would like to see how things outside of damage boil down a bit better.
I agree with Casia345 un terms of possible design flaw... TBH i was VERY surprised to see how devalued Dex was vs Str in the way the actual numbers have played out... I really expected something along the lines of a passive weapon finesse with added effect to damage as well as to hit to keep Dex as the clear stat that would favor rogues all around. While I ended up building my rogue much the same way I built staff wielding acrobats in the past in other games, I was disappointed to have to... esp with rogues using daggers instead of weapons classically viewed as str based weapons..
I know its a silly hair to split, but I really expected the "primary stat" of a class to be valued at at least double the effect you would get from stacking another stat. Eh well...
Actually I believe that executioner way benefits from Dex very well. When player gets to 150+ crit strike rating it turns the tide I believe. Otherwise STR + CHA is way to go...
Actually I believe that executioner way benefits from Dex very well. When player gets to 150+ crit strike rating it turns the tide I believe. Otherwise STR + CHA is way to go...
the thing is and remains.. the small amount of crit you get from dex is a drop in the bucket compared to what you get atm from gear.
No one is saynig that crit rating isnt important. THe argument is whether the contribution to crit from dex is worth it vs those same pts into STR. In that regard, STR still wins.
Again.. I am guessing you get this but for those that don't... its not an argument of crit vs the damage % from str. The arguemtn is the miniscule effect dex gives you towards crit, vs the larger, non devalued benefit of STR.
You can make up the 4 to 6 pts of dex loss easily with even green gear. You will never find gear that can make up for pts in str you don't take.
What are your STR and DEX scores at level 60 or what will they be when you hit 60? Seeing a lot of people talk about 'my build' without actually including numbers. This just gives me the impression that all these statements are coming directly from your thumbs rather than being true. I'll start if you'd like. ~lvl 50 gear with the following stats:
Offense slot = radiant R4 for every gear piece, pretty much all my gear is cirt/pow/ap based and a few with max LP/defence on it. I've always done the most dmg in a group of similiar gear leveled people. Surviving hasn't been a problem either unless I got outnumbered. I have no idea if this is good or bad, I'll leave that to the experts. Please include stat numbers though, lol.
David Valtiere, Lvl 70 TR with perfect Lvl 60 gear which I don't want to replace cause nostalgia yo ;_;
What are your STR and DEX scores at level 60 or what will they be when you hit 60? Seeing a lot of people talk about 'my build' without actually including numbers. This just gives me the impression that all these statements are coming directly from your thumbs rather than being true. I'll start if you'd like. ~lvl 50 gear with the following stats:
Offense slot = radiant R4 for every gear piece, pretty much all my gear is cirt/pow/ap based and a few with max LP/defence on it. I've always done the most dmg in a group of similiar gear leveled people. Surviving hasn't been a problem either unless I got outnumbered. I have no idea if this is good or bad, I'll leave that to the experts. Please include stat numbers though, lol.
Ok... level 44 rogue, 6th rogue built (half orc.. built a human, halfling, elf, tiefling, dwarf etc previously... Went with half orc for str build for obvious reasons... bonus to str and dex as well as combat charge and 5% crit severity... and for those who dont like how they look... she looks like a slim pretty blonde woman... with tusks. You get more than enough char creation options to tone down any racial effects to nil almost)
22 STR 24 at 60
11 CON
19 DEX
11 INT
11 WIS
16 CHA 18 at 60
Power 1766 (not sure where itll be at 60...)
Crit 1272 (same.. wearing some 30s gear, mostly low 40s with a few blues)
AP 842
Attack 3877
Recovery 364
Lifesteal 1196 (not things id generally gear for but levelling gear is what it is...)
Crit Chance: 30.2 Severity: 80%
Plenty of other stats that arent damage oriented. Recovery is included because it is damage oriented in that its calculated into your attack score.
Ofc using rad enchants in all offense slots.
Will update this when i hit 60 with this char... survival as well is generally not a problem. Also kinda sad IMO in that it devalues CON, and contributes to the theme of min maxing, eliminating the desire to have any of a stat that isnt "MOST" useful.. even though they retain some usefulness.
Survival has been fine... TBH, so far, though havent gotten her to max level yet, I haven't noticed any difference in survivability while under attack. She definately kills much more quickly. Was frankly surprised initially how small a difference dropping her dex down made in the long term. If i were to really go for gearing for crit in all slots, the difference would really be negigible. But with the crit severity, with similar gear to what my other rogues were wearing at this point, her lethal strike opener crits from stealth with lurker's assault hit for about 15k. That was an enormous difference from my previous favorite rogue, who maxed out at about 8k. WIthout lurkers, theyre at 8-10k. Amazing to me that without lurker's assault going I crit for about what I did previously WITH it. Not sure how/why that math works out... but it seems outrageous, tbh.
So, we'll see how she looks at 60 and update.
Oh, I should add that while for some this might not account to much, it is very noticeable how much more often I can dodge. About 5 dodges in roughly the amount of time I'd get 3 to 4 in previously.
The clearest thing I've seen so far... and this is the absolute truth and is actually what initially convinced me there was something wrong with the way they are valuing dex atm... With this particular build, I have not yet been beaten on the damage chart... even in grps where there have been up to a 6 level difference between me and the other dps. There has been an average damage gap of about 1M between my char and the next closest dps, with that gap having been as great as 3M on a couple dragon runs (non epic runs, mind you). At those levels, thats an extreme difference. Granted, player skill plays a role, but I've certainly been in grps with ppl I've run with plenty of times before and know to be perfectly skilled players, but even when sitting back in the cut a bit, letting them get a lead, as soon as she starts hitting, she makes up the gap and surpasses them in short order.
So... still not sure what I think about it. Seeing dex more or less chopped up atm by str is disappointing. I can't believe its what the devs intended, esp. considering they didn't seem to be presenting their iteration of a TR as a str rogue (which it isn't). Anyhow... we'll see how things continue to shape up.
(I understand some ppl see posts like this and assume its an "in your face"... Well, I'm not talking to you... for those who want some info, stats, and anecdotal play experience, there it is)
I find this thread really interesting and I am now looking forward into trying out a STR build.
I am just about to roll so after STR should I look to put all my points in CHA or DEX, If the toss up is between DEX and STR builds surely a STR build with DEX as secondary would be perfect?
So for starting stats I guess I have to go for 16 DEX 16 STR and 12 CHA as I need as much on STR as possible?
I find this thread really interesting and I am now looking forward into trying out a STR build.
I am just about to roll so after STR should I look to put all my points in CHA or DEX, If the toss up is between DEX and STR builds surely a STR build with DEX as secondary would be perfect?
So for starting stats I guess I have to go for 16 DEX 16 STR and 12 CHA as I need as much on STR as possible?
Thanks for any advice, I am kind of new to this
Thats a perfectly reasonable starting point... with possible variations from ability score bonuses you'd get due to race... those taken into account, you really want to try to get at least an 18 if not a 20 in whichever score youre going for as your foremost stacker (getting a 20 in str is pretty hard if not impossible due to the fact that the roll generator prioritizes Dex over str and CHA whether you want it to or not... so taking a split between the 2 of 18 str 18 dex, or if possible 19 str 17 dex, etc.
There is something to be said for letting your dex sit after youre initial ability score roll and using your ability score boost every 10 levels on STR and CHA as well instead of STR and Dex... but in order to make that decision for yourself I'd just keep reading up and decide what you want to be doing. Cha's effect on combat advantage damage is much the same as STR is all around... where dex's % is additive to your dex score, STR and CHA are multiplicative... So, read up and go with what you think makes sense..
More than anything.. don't fall in love with and marry your first character.. level it a bit, but dont be afraid to reroll a few times and try new things before settling.
yup.. which is frustrating with the way they have ended up weighting the scores.. But yep.. i ran into same thing.. you can deal with it a bit with a half orc.. but still not the way I would like...
Somehow, they not only managed to make the "primary" attribute of the class the least desirable one, and then they also force you to allocate points to it. Now that's some awesome class design, isn't it?
If you want a truely unique build try going deflect + str.
My TR has so much deflect gear on in PvP when someone attacks me they are basically killing themselves, the deflect + str damage pretty much owns anyone in PvP.
I especially love it when I am chasing down CW's and having the enemy TR come up behind me to unleash his skills only to see himself ending up with 1/2 health for attacking me.
Deflect doesn't deflect damage.. it ignores it right?
If you deflect, then you get a 25% base damage reduction. A few ways to increase the amount of DR, but in general you'll be increasing the chance to deflect itself, not the amount deflected.
There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding. THe way the deflection mechanic works, nothing is being "reflected'... it is simply"deflected harmlessly"... it isn't retributive damage back to the attacker.
So, I'd say Mickst3r its probably the fact that you have some kickass damage to begin with with your str build that is causing havoc for ya
Comments
Coming from a minmaxer from 1st edition days, I know Dex SHOULD be doing more for us, but it isnt. When I reread just crit, I felt like rerolling on the spot to not grab that 18.
As it stands, What would be optimal? Im somewhat racist against halflings and orcs, so I'd rather not be an orc and prefer human.
But meantime I figure put the +2 to str, and get highest str/cha with that. Every time you can pump up stats, are you going str and dex or str and cha?
Im only lvl18, after already deleting a lvl 13 rogue so no real care about going again. I already have been working on location awareness for Combat Advantage.
Can you account for the fact that crit has synergy with the executioner tree?
Upon crit, one of your next attacks gets 30% of your crit severity added to it.
25% crit severity with stealth, 10% more after a shocking execution.
Also, how does CHA compare to DEX? If you assume a rogue goes STR primary, then should they follow with dex or cha?
I guess i've never seen a good explanation on how 1% combat advantage exactly works...
while higher crit severity does help.
in no way does that address the issue that dex is completely trivialized by crit rating.
Some of the potential combinations on Half Orc
S/Ch/D/I
15, 15, 17, 12
15, 15, 18, 11
17, 13, 17, 12
17, 13, 18, 11
So what would be better, 17str over 13 cha or the even 15, 15? And in the the case of 17 dex/11int vs 18dex/12 int, 1 dex worth 1 int?
I'm a Dex-based Halfling Rogue, & though I'm still utterly clueless about Stealth, I seem to do OK anyway, I have fun, & that's all that matters to me.
Game on!
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
And fun? Game on?
Bah! Games are contests. Contests have winners. Winners have to do stuff that non-winners don't do.
We obviously won.
We are having fun enjoying a game instead of stressing out on it as if it were a contest.
That right there is where imo... when you step outside of talking purely damage (which is certainly one of the first things ppl want to focus on and look at) that there really does begin to be a far greater value lost, possibly, with going so high into str at teh detriment of other Ascores rogues are designed to synerigize with. I just skimmed through the 2 pages written since your post but I just saw something that might address it in a better way than I could do.
It is true... there is more to the game than damage. And esp when it comes to survival in pvp or high end epic content, that rogue that is dead who "could" have been popping off enormous damage is less value than the rogue that survived to tell the tale. In that regard, I think the jury can only reasonable be called "out" still until we see more in game experience and chop it up a bit.
FUn to take look at, even still
I know its a silly hair to split, but I really expected the "primary stat" of a class to be valued at at least double the effect you would get from stacking another stat. Eh well...
I'd rather not be alone, because I value friendships more than anything else.
Proud to be a part of Graviora Manent
the thing is and remains.. the small amount of crit you get from dex is a drop in the bucket compared to what you get atm from gear.
No one is saynig that crit rating isnt important. THe argument is whether the contribution to crit from dex is worth it vs those same pts into STR. In that regard, STR still wins.
Again.. I am guessing you get this but for those that don't... its not an argument of crit vs the damage % from str. The arguemtn is the miniscule effect dex gives you towards crit, vs the larger, non devalued benefit of STR.
You can make up the 4 to 6 pts of dex loss easily with even green gear. You will never find gear that can make up for pts in str you don't take.
-Human Rogue-
18 Str
12 Cons
24 Dex
9 Int
11 Wis
14 Cha
1637 Pow
1631 Crit
1168 AP
Attack 4258
Crit chance 34%, severity 75%
18.2% dmg res, 11.4% deflection
20.5k LP
Offense slot = radiant R4 for every gear piece, pretty much all my gear is cirt/pow/ap based and a few with max LP/defence on it. I've always done the most dmg in a group of similiar gear leveled people. Surviving hasn't been a problem either unless I got outnumbered. I have no idea if this is good or bad, I'll leave that to the experts. Please include stat numbers though, lol.
Ok... level 44 rogue, 6th rogue built (half orc.. built a human, halfling, elf, tiefling, dwarf etc previously... Went with half orc for str build for obvious reasons... bonus to str and dex as well as combat charge and 5% crit severity... and for those who dont like how they look... she looks like a slim pretty blonde woman... with tusks. You get more than enough char creation options to tone down any racial effects to nil almost)
22 STR 24 at 60
11 CON
19 DEX
11 INT
11 WIS
16 CHA 18 at 60
Power 1766 (not sure where itll be at 60...)
Crit 1272 (same.. wearing some 30s gear, mostly low 40s with a few blues)
AP 842
Attack 3877
Recovery 364
Lifesteal 1196 (not things id generally gear for but levelling gear is what it is...)
Crit Chance: 30.2 Severity: 80%
Plenty of other stats that arent damage oriented. Recovery is included because it is damage oriented in that its calculated into your attack score.
Ofc using rad enchants in all offense slots.
Will update this when i hit 60 with this char... survival as well is generally not a problem. Also kinda sad IMO in that it devalues CON, and contributes to the theme of min maxing, eliminating the desire to have any of a stat that isnt "MOST" useful.. even though they retain some usefulness.
Survival has been fine... TBH, so far, though havent gotten her to max level yet, I haven't noticed any difference in survivability while under attack. She definately kills much more quickly. Was frankly surprised initially how small a difference dropping her dex down made in the long term. If i were to really go for gearing for crit in all slots, the difference would really be negigible. But with the crit severity, with similar gear to what my other rogues were wearing at this point, her lethal strike opener crits from stealth with lurker's assault hit for about 15k. That was an enormous difference from my previous favorite rogue, who maxed out at about 8k. WIthout lurkers, theyre at 8-10k. Amazing to me that without lurker's assault going I crit for about what I did previously WITH it. Not sure how/why that math works out... but it seems outrageous, tbh.
So, we'll see how she looks at 60 and update.
Oh, I should add that while for some this might not account to much, it is very noticeable how much more often I can dodge. About 5 dodges in roughly the amount of time I'd get 3 to 4 in previously.
The clearest thing I've seen so far... and this is the absolute truth and is actually what initially convinced me there was something wrong with the way they are valuing dex atm... With this particular build, I have not yet been beaten on the damage chart... even in grps where there have been up to a 6 level difference between me and the other dps. There has been an average damage gap of about 1M between my char and the next closest dps, with that gap having been as great as 3M on a couple dragon runs (non epic runs, mind you). At those levels, thats an extreme difference. Granted, player skill plays a role, but I've certainly been in grps with ppl I've run with plenty of times before and know to be perfectly skilled players, but even when sitting back in the cut a bit, letting them get a lead, as soon as she starts hitting, she makes up the gap and surpasses them in short order.
So... still not sure what I think about it. Seeing dex more or less chopped up atm by str is disappointing. I can't believe its what the devs intended, esp. considering they didn't seem to be presenting their iteration of a TR as a str rogue (which it isn't). Anyhow... we'll see how things continue to shape up.
(I understand some ppl see posts like this and assume its an "in your face"... Well, I'm not talking to you... for those who want some info, stats, and anecdotal play experience, there it is)
I am just about to roll so after STR should I look to put all my points in CHA or DEX, If the toss up is between DEX and STR builds surely a STR build with DEX as secondary would be perfect?
So for starting stats I guess I have to go for 16 DEX 16 STR and 12 CHA as I need as much on STR as possible?
Thanks for any advice, I am kind of new to this
Thats a perfectly reasonable starting point... with possible variations from ability score bonuses you'd get due to race... those taken into account, you really want to try to get at least an 18 if not a 20 in whichever score youre going for as your foremost stacker (getting a 20 in str is pretty hard if not impossible due to the fact that the roll generator prioritizes Dex over str and CHA whether you want it to or not... so taking a split between the 2 of 18 str 18 dex, or if possible 19 str 17 dex, etc.
There is something to be said for letting your dex sit after youre initial ability score roll and using your ability score boost every 10 levels on STR and CHA as well instead of STR and Dex... but in order to make that decision for yourself I'd just keep reading up and decide what you want to be doing. Cha's effect on combat advantage damage is much the same as STR is all around... where dex's % is additive to your dex score, STR and CHA are multiplicative... So, read up and go with what you think makes sense..
More than anything.. don't fall in love with and marry your first character.. level it a bit, but dont be afraid to reroll a few times and try new things before settling.
Thanks for the reply
My TR has so much deflect gear on in PvP when someone attacks me they are basically killing themselves, the deflect + str damage pretty much owns anyone in PvP.
I especially love it when I am chasing down CW's and having the enemy TR come up behind me to unleash his skills only to see himself ending up with 1/2 health for attacking me.
If you deflect, then you get a 25% base damage reduction. A few ways to increase the amount of DR, but in general you'll be increasing the chance to deflect itself, not the amount deflected.
There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding. THe way the deflection mechanic works, nothing is being "reflected'... it is simply"deflected harmlessly"... it isn't retributive damage back to the attacker.
So, I'd say Mickst3r its probably the fact that you have some kickass damage to begin with with your str build that is causing havoc for ya