I come at this issue from a different trajectory altogether. I have two accounts: one a "Guardian" level Founder (the $60 buy-in), and one freebie. In the interest of full-disclosure, I don't PvP on either one...not my thing.
Was leveling in the early game easier on the Founder account? Between the blue weapon which was unsurpassed up until around level 20, the blue ring which some of my 20's characters are still wearing, and the Dire Wolf companion to assist from the moment I was "feet-wet" in Protector's Enclave, it was undoubtedly a bit easier. That being said, I am enjoying my freebie account as well even without the perks. I have to be a bit more situationally aware, and can't typically just hack-n-slash my way out of a jam, but that's just fine.
This is particularly true on my Great Weapon Fighter, which is on my freebie account. Despite being a mail-wearing class, they can be particularly squishy early on. The only "advantage" I've given this toon is to mail a stack of 99 healing potions I had already outgrown on my other characters. He pops these like candy to stay healthy, but otherwise all his gear is standard-issue stuff. I suppose I could spend some money and mail him a healer companion, and indeed may do that if he runs into a wall prior to hitting 16 and getting his starter companion.
The point is, while I have indeed spent money on this game (including a visit to the Zen store for the Founder account), I'm playing the "froob" account with as much enjoyment as I do the Founder one, perhaps with even a bit more personal satisfaction, since I'm not benefiting from any of the front-loaded gear that I have on my paid-for account and still somehow managing to prosper.
May I humbly suggest, OP, that your expectations of what is "power" or "advantage" in a game may need to be re-aligned to conform to "what is" and not simply "what I wish it was." Food for thought.
You're speaking about the entirety of the game from a mere pre-16 level viewpoint. When your free account is level 40, 50, or 60 I will be interested to see how you feel about it.
Burden of proof is on you. Please name the MMO that is immune to 3rd party gold farmers and power levelers. You have made the statement that you cannot buy power in any MMO.
Prove it, or continue to be a troll.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think shadeypwnz is saying that sure you can illegaly buy power through powerleveling and gold farming services in games such as WOW but the majority of people won't engage in such an action. Where as here in this game you are encouraged to buy power by the devs so that you can keep up with the people who have the disposable income to spend hundreds of dollars on the "micro"transaction store. Or you can spend hundreds of hours grinding to try and keep up, but by the time you have amassed enough AD the people who pay will have already bought themselves to the next level. Hence the cycle of grinding continues.
How is wrong that people who spend money for a product have better treatment than leeches?
gotta love your attitude my fellow mmo player i dont give a monkeys what you got for your $200 or your $60 i have played mmo for 18 years p2p, f2p and b2p i refused to b2p this free game this time round on its release in wanting to see how it all pans out and im a leech no wonder the mmo market is fading the new mmo generation has got its head so firm up its own <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> i would not want to be one of its number let alone one of the so called founders club.
I work for the money I make. I spend my time working, to earn money to buy the things I need and want. That is pretty much how the world works, except for the few who think they should have what I do without ever doing any work.
If I take my money, that I worked to earn, and I buy a faster mount in game, then what is the problem really? You can get one too. You can choose to spend some money and get it.
Or, if you prefer, you can just get one with time. It takes time to make money, so it stands to reason that spending your time in game should give you something equal to money. And it very much does.
I bought a new car a month ago, an Aston Martin Vantage. It's probably faster than your car I bet. I saved up and spent the last three years working extra hours to get this car, so I spent not only money but time to get it. And there is nothing in the world you can do that would allow you to get one without also buying it, and do you think you should have one too? Just because I do?
Now, take this to the game. I spent time at work, earning my money, and I spent that money on the game. I got a faster mount than you. But unlike real life, you can just spend some time in the game and get one too. You can't do that in real life.
Honestly, you are looking at this the wrong way. You actually have the advantage when you don't spend money. I bet you are wondering how. What a crazy thing to say, right?
Let's look at it.
You only spend time. You spend some time in game, you get a Rank 3 mount without ever spending a dime. All your real world money is still yours.
I spend money on the game. I had to earn that money, which took my time to do. I get a rank 3 mount too, but I don't have my money anymore.
So, you spent only some time. I spent time and money.
Also, if the game shut down in a year or two, you never spent a dime. Anything you no longer have because the game is gone didn't take away from your real life. I spent money, that means when the game shuts down I have nothing to show for the money I spent.
The only way anyone could complain about someone being able to spend money to get something, power or otherwise, is if they couldn't get the same things. You can. You can get the same things by spending only time.
The only difference is how quickly you get it. In the end, we are equal, just you had to be more patient because you refused to spend money. I didn't get any power you can't get. You can get the same power.
It's only unfair when you get power that other's cannot get.
That isn't the case here. If it really means that much to you that you have it now, spend some cash.
If you are going to be a free player, then you live with having to be patient. It's a choice you make.
You should be thankful for people like me, and the others who spend money on the game. Without us, you don't get to play the game. It's the people who spend money that keep the game going, and if the people who pay money don't get something for their money, they won't spend it. Then it won't really matter, because the game will shut down.
If anything, the people spending money are taking the biggest hit. It's like paying child support for a bunch of kids you shouldn't even be responsible for.
They could switch to the monthly sub, then we all get things equal...but then you'd be FORCED to spend money to play. Since you obviously don't want to spend money, what exactly do you feel you have the right to ***** about?
I would very much prefer a monthly sub with everyone on equal footing, that is a great idea. Imbalancing a game to favor people with extra cash to blow is quite unreasonable. Congratulations on being richer than me though!
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skeeter82Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You're speaking about the entirety of the game from a mere pre-16 level viewpoint. When your free account is level 40, 50, or 60 I will be interested to see how you feel about it.
My god...nothing makes you happy. It's either your way or no way and everyone is wrong.
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oriodixMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
How is wrong that people who spend money for a product have better treatment than leeches?
If non paying players are leechers, then this game shouldn't be called f2p but p2p
As i said, we have same goal, same route, but you got shortcuts through same maze. We will spend entire life chasing you, and that's sad because we can't play head to head.
It's not item shop, it is game economy which forces to buy ZEN and items from IS. There is a cancer, which slowly kills non paying players, killing their fun.
I don't care about mounts, but i care about system in game, spend diamonds on everything, but from where i can get those bilions of diamonds? Ninja stealing dungeon drops? Farming 24k/day? You know that is possible, but where is fun?
end of the argument. Anything said past this point is the beginning of a new argument.
Except that the "argument" you quoted is reducto ad absurdium.
As repeated in many threads, including this one, the speed of acquisition of Zen through AD is so slow that it may as well be considered lip service.
The post you quoted tries to say that "money=time=money, therefore your time is equal to my money". No, it's not. Google says the minimum wage in America is $7.25, meaning that you could theoretically buy a $40 mount in 5.5 hours. In that same time farming AD, assuming 425 AD per zen which is the cheapest price right now (the ratio will go up as inflation does), you'd need to farm 309090 AD per hour. If we assume a more reasonable salary for someone likely to be playing a video game and buying a $40, say $25 an hour, that means you buy the mount in 1.6 hours, and the equivalent in AD farming would be 1.0625million AD/hour. So, divide by the amount you make per hour, multiply by the cost of the item you want, and divide by the actual amount of AD you make per hour, and you can see how asinine it is to suggest that farming AD is a relevant way of acquiring character progression. Also, don't count anything you make through the AH, since that does not create new AD but mearly shuffles it, meaning that when everyone wants to do the same, the relative value of each item in terms of its worth in Zen drops through the floor.
It clearly isn't if you are advocating that an entire industry changed their model of business to suit your inability to solve your own problem.
The behaviour of PWE is not remotely representative of "an entire industry"; it is representative only of itself. There are plenty of other microtransaction based free games that do not charge close to what PWE does for things, nor so drastically limit gameplay without paying (lol, 1 bag without paying $10 per bag per character.. what a joke).
The model clearly works by charging less and retaining more customers, but for some reason PWE is happy to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off more people and charge the less remaining more money. The question is, why are you happy to be charged so much?
Let's be absolutely clear here; no-one with any common sense has any particular issue with micro-transaction based stores. They work functionally well in many online games. You aren't silly for buying a founders pack to support the game you like, nor are you silly for buying a mount you like. What you are silly for is not fighting for yourself to get things at a more reasonable price from this point on. Do you all actually believe that you are getting value for money from the items you buy? Those people that do, have you actually played any other microtransaction games? I can only imagine that the people who are happy with paying $40 for a spider that goes %110 are those who are heavy D&D fans who really haven't had much experience with the rest of the industry outside of PWE.
You're speaking about the entirety of the game from a mere pre-16 level viewpoint. When your free account is level 40, 50, or 60 I will be interested to see how you feel about it.
I'll take you up on that. My Guardian Fighter on the free account is near 40. Still enjoying it. :cool:
Will /danceseductive for ZEN. :cool:
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fmstalkerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 3Arc User
You're speaking about the entirety of the game from a mere pre-16 level viewpoint. When your free account is level 40, 50, or 60 I will be interested to see how you feel about it.
I could throw the same question to you.
Since you don't have the founder account to compare, how do you know there is any advantage beyond level 20?
I have 180K AD on my lvl 60 character, and I haven't touched a single AD that came with my pack.
And I have spent AD that I made on some scrolls and such. I would say I probably earned 220k total, and spent about 40k of it.
The game is two weeks old for me, and I haven't done the daily quests since level 25 or so simply because I out level the dungeons and skirmishes before I could get in a group for them.
So, exactly what advantage do I have here? The only advantage I see are the rank 3 mount and the fact I started with a companion. But my Man at Arms companion, he does more damage than my cat, and he is maxed out already. My cat is 27 out of 30 possible levels, does less damage. Prior to level 16, I had an advantage...but at lvl 60, I do not.
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joeamaxinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 21Arc User
So, we have casuals who don't invest the time but also won't contribute to keep the game going.
Trying to find a reason to care about youb at all. You sound like a parasite who wants stuff for nothing.
Actually I did support the game by buying the guardian pack (i just dont know how to make it my title on the forums).
And I would happily support this game further but the fact that I have to pay for basic items like bags makes me not want to.
In other words I am speaking with my wallet. I have bought in game currency for other games like LOL, Warframe, and Smite because I think that they have a fair pricing structure and a fair way to get stuff from the cash shop in game.
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mutharexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
gotta love your attitude my fellow mmo player i dont give a monkeys what you got for your $200 or your $60 i have played mmo for 18 years p2p, f2p and b2p i refused to b2p this free game this time round on its release in wanting to see how it all pans out and im a leech no wonder the mmo market is fading the new mmo generation has got its head so firm up its own <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> i would not want to be one of its number let alone one of the so called founders club.
You are very confused, very very confused
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think shadeypwnz is saying that sure you can illegaly buy power through powerleveling and gold farming services in games such as WOW but the majority of people won't engage in such an action. Where as here in this game you are encouraged to buy power by the devs so that you can keep up with the people who have the disposable income to spend hundreds of dollars on the "micro"transaction store. Or you can spend hundreds of hours grinding to try and keep up, but by the time you have amassed enough AD the people who pay will have already bought themselves to the next level. Hence the cycle of grinding continues.
IT'S NOT A COMPETITION. The thing that people don't seem to understand is someone else having an epic and you not having it does not lessen your gameplay unless you make it so. Just because someone else has something that you don't doesn't mean they are automatically better than you, or that you deserve to be equally powerful with them.
Enjoy the game and play it. If you want to invest money in the game and buy perks for your character great the devs will appreciate your support, but if you want to grind it out and spend time instead of money you can do that too. There is NOTHING in this game that you cannot buy with time grinding vs actual monetary cost. If someone is bragging about how they are in fully decked out epics because they bought their way to the top is a completely different issue.
People need to stop defining their own progress or goals in the game based on what everyone else is doing. If you don't enjoy the game then don't play it. Play something else that you like more. This game does allow you to buy some perks with money, but it is far from the best stuff in the game. Not to mention the fact that you can grind the AD to buy the things you can buy with money anyways means that there is no advantage other than time.
I spent $200 and I still have 5 characters that I'm grinding AD on to buy other things. That's because I like the game and I wanted to support it. The perks of the mount and what not are just perks to me. I would have still given them the $200 for the game. If you find it a mediocre game and don't want to support it that's your choice, but that doesn't give you the right to ridicule or condemn other people for their support. You can like things that other people don't and I can like things that you don't.
You only allow others to affect your gameplay if you choose to allow them. You don't have to judge your own progress by how you rank with others in the game. You can use whatever criteria you want or none at all.
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rakeleerMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think shadeypwnz is saying that sure you can illegaly buy power through powerleveling and gold farming services in games such as WOW but the majority of people won't engage in such an action.
Just a clarification, it is more akin to a breach of contract. It is not illegal. There is no law I'm aware that prevents gold sales and power leveling. If there were, most of the F2P games would probably be in violation.
Where as here in this game you are encouraged to buy power by the devs so that you can keep up with the people who have the disposable income to spend hundreds of dollars on the "micro"transaction store. Or you can spend hundreds of hours grinding to try and keep up, but by the time you have amassed enough AD the people who pay will have already bought themselves to the next level. Hence the cycle of grinding continues.
Throw away the gold farming/power leveling argument. If I have sufficient disposable income, I can forgo employment and spend %100 of my waking time in the game. I have now purchased power.
If he wanted to make a more qualified argument "Purchase power only from within the game through game-owner's legitimate source", etc, he could have.
Instead we get a pithy, and incredibly inaccurate:
I want people to not be able to buy power.
OP does not understand the concept of "buy" or "power". OP has a weird, egalitarian, unrealistic view of the world, and is now fighting a losing battle trying to project it into gaming, so will rely on all kinds of vacillation and dissemblance to make its point.
Anyway, trolls gotta troll.
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mutharexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Shadey, by any chance did you use to post on SWTOR or Rift forum with a similar handle? You sound...familiar.
how so in the fact u founders gaurdians labeled people leeches or the fact that f2p will buy only if they like what they play or the fact that mmo nowdays has more trolls than a lotr film:p hmmm im intrested
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xervaiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
gotta love your attitude my fellow mmo player i dont give a monkeys what you got for your $200 or your $60 i have played mmo for 18 years p2p, f2p and b2p i refused to b2p this free game this time round on its release in wanting to see how it all pans out and im a leech no wonder the mmo market is fading the new mmo generation has got its head so firm up its own <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> i would not want to be one of its number let alone the so called founders club.
Wait what? If you don't pay for anything, no founders pack, no nothing. You get a great game, not the best without lots of grinding for AD in later levels, but we ALL have to do that at level 60.
Those 2.5m AD they give you? Most people spent that in the first 5 minutes of logging in. It doesn't go for squat currently, but things are slowly going down in value.
That's making things like the Idols worth a lot more. We all need to sell things for AD, we all need to grind for loot, we all sell things on the market.
Anyone coming in here from <60 viewpoint has no idea how easy it is to get the AD you want to supplement your alts. Guess what? EVERY MMO is like this. When you have a high level toon you can easily help your alts.
You can:
- Solo/duo/trio lower level dungeons and keep the loot for alts
- Use the seals and trade for alts
- Farm for enhancements and then combine them
Some current Prices on Dragon:
- Bags are currently <500k AD (or $10 in the store)
- Coalescent wards <150k AD (or $10 in the store) - ALWAYS BUY WITH AD
- Tons of T1/crafted gear going for <300k each
If you're going off of the store, and not paying attention. You deserve to have an unhappy experience in this game and you are WHINING. Seriously, none of these concepts are new to an MMO. If you need some one to help you, ask more intelligent questions.
IT'S NOT A COMPETITION. The thing that people don't seem to understand is someone else having an epic and you not having it does not lessen your gameplay unless you make it so.
Yes, it is. The fact that it isn't for you doesn't make it less so for anyone else.
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mutharexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
how so in the fact u founders gaurdians labeled people leeches or the fact that f2p will buy only if they like what they play or the fact that mmo nowdays has more trolls than a lotr film:p hmmm im intrested
No, I labelled leechers people who want to play this without spending a dime AND moan and whine on the forum because people who spend money get stuff faster..
I want it NOW. I Want it FREE. Sounds like my 2 year old son. Kids will be kids though. They get an entire game for free and it isn't good enough. They also need everything NOW for free. You kids kill me...
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skeeter82Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
I think the OP and a few others are taking a game way to seriously.
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Let's be absolutely clear here; no-one with any common sense has any particular issue with micro-transaction based stores. They work functionally well in many online games. You aren't silly for buying a founders pack to support the game you like, nor are you silly for buying a mount you like. What you are silly for is not fighting for yourself to get things at a more reasonable price from this point on. Do you all actually believe that you are getting value for money from the items you buy? Those people that do, have you actually played any other microtransaction games? I can only imagine that the people who are happy with paying $40 for a spider that goes %110 are those who are heavy D&D fans who really haven't had much experience with the rest of the industry outside of PWE.
Because I value money differently than you do. That doesn't mean that I have to value the game more, it just means that I value money less. I'm fortunate to have a career that pays me extremely well, so $200 is chump change to me. That doesn't make me better than you, but it also doesn't make me complain about how much it costs. I'm very satisfied with what I got for my $200 because I really like this game. So why should I fight for cheaper prices for you? PWE gets to decide the payment model and the prices. If you don't find the value in the pack then don't buy it with real money. Grind it out and use AD to buy it.
What would devalue the game is if they made everything so much easier/cheaper to get because then it doesn't mean anything. Just hand epics to everyone and you'll find out that none of it means anythign to anyone. I guarantee you that if you grind out the AD to buy a mount or something you will appreciate it when you get it because not everyone is as dedicated as you to grind it out. Then again you will probably lord it over the people who "bought" it because you some how think that grinding it makes you a better person.
Well I spent my time grinding up my real life career so I can buy perks in the games that I like.
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mutharexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I would very much prefer a monthly sub with everyone on equal footing, that is a great idea. Imbalancing a game to favor people with extra cash to blow is quite unreasonable. Congratulations on being richer than me though!
Richer than you how? You don't know anything about my finances. I saved for three years to buy my car. That doesn't sound very rich to me.
Where is the imbalance in game? I have a friend who plays free, and we have grouped up and played through the game together, all the way to level 53. At no point did it ever feel as though I had an advantage over him, with the exception of getting across the map faster on my mount.
Except that the "argument" you quoted is reducto ad absurdium.
As repeated in many threads, including this one, the speed of acquisition of Zen through AD is so slow that it may as well be considered lip service.
The post you quoted tries to say that "money=time=money, therefore your time is equal to my money". No, it's not. Google says the minimum wage in America is $7.25, meaning that you could theoretically buy a $40 mount in 5.5 hours. In that same time farming AD, assuming 425 AD per zen which is the cheapest price right now (the ratio will go up as inflation does), you'd need to farm 309090 AD per hour. If we assume a more reasonable salary for someone likely to be playing a video game and buying a $40, say $25 an hour, that means you buy the mount in 1.6 hours, and the equivalent in AD farming would be 1.0625million AD/hour. So, divide by the amount you make per hour, multiply by the cost of the item you want, and divide by the actual amount of AD you make per hour, and you can see how asinine it is to suggest that farming AD is a relevant way of acquiring character progression. Also, don't count anything you make through the AH, since that does not create new AD but mearly shuffles it, meaning that when everyone wants to do the same, the relative value of each item in terms of its worth in Zen drops through the floor.
So no, money != time.
The behaviour of PWE is not remotely representative of "an entire industry"; it is representative only of itself. There are plenty of other microtransaction based free games that do not charge close to what PWE does for things, nor so drastically limit gameplay without paying (lol, 1 bag without paying $10 per bag per character.. what a joke).
The model clearly works by charging less and retaining more customers, but for some reason PWE is happy to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off more people and charge the less remaining more money. The question is, why are you happy to be charged so much?
The part you are missing is that you don't get all the money you make per hour. There is this thing called taxes.
Then, how much do you have to make per hour to live? You have bills to pay, right? Rent, utilities, food.
That's assuming you don't pay for things like a car, insurance and medical expenses. What about clothing and household products like soap or toothpaste?
How much of your hourly money do you actually have available to spend once the things that have to be paid are paid for? How much do you have left for luxury items?
And any game you play is a luxury item.
Now, you take that number and you convert it to time and the gain of AD, then we can talk.
And just because someone lists their Zen in game for 425 each, doesn't mean it's worth that much. You choose to buy it or not.
But you can get rank 3 mounts, which the OP has mentioned as an advantage, without spending Zen. There are some on the AH all the time, and you can also get a standard mount and upgrade it with books bought with AD.
What it comes down to is, how much is a single AD worth? Hard to say exactly. But I can make about 5k in the three hours I play a day, without even trying. Crafting and daily missions, plus the prayer get's me that easily.
Let's just say they are worth 1 cent a piece. That's 50 bucks worth of AD in 3 hours.
How much money do you make in three hours, and how much of that can you actually spend on the game? I make 11.25 an hour, of which I get to keep about 9.00 of. Assuming I had no bills to pay, that would only be 27 bucks I could spend on the game.
And you also seem to miss the fact that you buy a mount once. It's not something you buy repeatedly. You get it and you don't need another.
So that 30 bucks you spend is a one time deal. 30 dollars for something lasts forever is pretty cheap. I paid more than that for my PC that plays this game, and it won't last as long.
How can you say it's over-priced? If 10% of the players spent 30 bucks only once in their entire time playing, how much money would that make? Is it a profit? Is it enough to keep the game going?
Those are important questions to ask before you start claiming things are overpriced.
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joeamaxinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 21Arc User
I spent $200 and I still have 5 characters that I'm grinding AD on to buy other things. That's because I like the game and I wanted to support it. The perks of the mount and what not are just perks to me. I would have still given them the $200 for the game. If you find it a mediocre game and don't want to support it that's your choice, but that doesn't give you the right to ridicule or condemn other people for their support. You can like things that other people don't and I can like things that you don't.
You only allow others to affect your gameplay if you choose to allow them. You don't have to judge your own progress by how you rank with others in the game. You can use whatever criteria you want or none at all.
Firstly I never said it was a mediocre game, in fact I rather like it but the zen store is pushing me away.
Secondly I did support the game, I bought the guardian pack and I would support more if stuff like bags weren't restricted to the zen store.
Thirdly, I am not ridiculing or condemning people for paying. What I am saying is that people who pay have too great an advantage over those who don't. Be that in gear quality, companion quality, or bag space. Look at a game like Tera, free to play but you can also but stuff on the store. Last time I checked (i haven't played tera in a bit) everything in the cash shop only gave a slight boost over people who don't sure the cash shop. Such as an exp boost or getting a mount at level 1. The gap between F2P people and people who use the cash shop is too big. And I would buy stuff off the cash shop but I don't want to support a game where people are gimped hard for not using the cash shop or spending hours upon hours grinding AD.
Lastly, It does affect my gameplay. For example in pvp if people buy better gear they instantly have an unfair advantage over me. Or the health stones on the store that people have begun to expect that you have if you want to do higher level dungeons. So yes as I said before it does affect my gameplay, and in a negative way.
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jorealMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes, it is. The fact that it isn't for you doesn't make it less so for anyone else.
No its really not. Just because you choose to rate the value of your game experience based on what everyone else is doing doesn't make it so. You can either act like an entitled brat that feels the need to be handed everything or you can just enjoy the game. Not everyone is going to value the game the same way you do. Therefore you bring this conflict upon yourself.
I guarantee you that no matter what drops *I* get in the game, it will have zero effect on your gameplay. The only way that it would affect you is if you decide to be jeleous of something I have. I don't even have to brag about it, you just have to see me and decide that I'm better than you because I have something you don't. If you don't care what I have then what I do in the game is irrelevant.
There is no universal life score that is going to make you better or worse than me unless you chose to measure yourself that way. You can certainly feel proud of your accomplishments, but you are the one that gives them value, not me.
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You're speaking about the entirety of the game from a mere pre-16 level viewpoint. When your free account is level 40, 50, or 60 I will be interested to see how you feel about it.
Trying to find a reason to care about you at all. You sound like a parasite who wants stuff for nothing.
Forgive me if I'm wrong but I think shadeypwnz is saying that sure you can illegaly buy power through powerleveling and gold farming services in games such as WOW but the majority of people won't engage in such an action. Where as here in this game you are encouraged to buy power by the devs so that you can keep up with the people who have the disposable income to spend hundreds of dollars on the "micro"transaction store. Or you can spend hundreds of hours grinding to try and keep up, but by the time you have amassed enough AD the people who pay will have already bought themselves to the next level. Hence the cycle of grinding continues.
gotta love your attitude my fellow mmo player i dont give a monkeys what you got for your $200 or your $60 i have played mmo for 18 years p2p, f2p and b2p i refused to b2p this free game this time round on its release in wanting to see how it all pans out and im a leech no wonder the mmo market is fading the new mmo generation has got its head so firm up its own <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> i would not want to be one of its number let alone one of the so called founders club.
I would very much prefer a monthly sub with everyone on equal footing, that is a great idea. Imbalancing a game to favor people with extra cash to blow is quite unreasonable. Congratulations on being richer than me though!
My god...nothing makes you happy. It's either your way or no way and everyone is wrong.
If non paying players are leechers, then this game shouldn't be called f2p but p2p
As i said, we have same goal, same route, but you got shortcuts through same maze. We will spend entire life chasing you, and that's sad because we can't play head to head.
It's not item shop, it is game economy which forces to buy ZEN and items from IS. There is a cancer, which slowly kills non paying players, killing their fun.
I don't care about mounts, but i care about system in game, spend diamonds on everything, but from where i can get those bilions of diamonds? Ninja stealing dungeon drops? Farming 24k/day? You know that is possible, but where is fun?
As repeated in many threads, including this one, the speed of acquisition of Zen through AD is so slow that it may as well be considered lip service.
The post you quoted tries to say that "money=time=money, therefore your time is equal to my money". No, it's not. Google says the minimum wage in America is $7.25, meaning that you could theoretically buy a $40 mount in 5.5 hours. In that same time farming AD, assuming 425 AD per zen which is the cheapest price right now (the ratio will go up as inflation does), you'd need to farm 309090 AD per hour. If we assume a more reasonable salary for someone likely to be playing a video game and buying a $40, say $25 an hour, that means you buy the mount in 1.6 hours, and the equivalent in AD farming would be 1.0625million AD/hour. So, divide by the amount you make per hour, multiply by the cost of the item you want, and divide by the actual amount of AD you make per hour, and you can see how asinine it is to suggest that farming AD is a relevant way of acquiring character progression. Also, don't count anything you make through the AH, since that does not create new AD but mearly shuffles it, meaning that when everyone wants to do the same, the relative value of each item in terms of its worth in Zen drops through the floor.
So no, money != time.
The behaviour of PWE is not remotely representative of "an entire industry"; it is representative only of itself. There are plenty of other microtransaction based free games that do not charge close to what PWE does for things, nor so drastically limit gameplay without paying (lol, 1 bag without paying $10 per bag per character.. what a joke).
The model clearly works by charging less and retaining more customers, but for some reason PWE is happy to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> off more people and charge the less remaining more money. The question is, why are you happy to be charged so much?
Let's be absolutely clear here; no-one with any common sense has any particular issue with micro-transaction based stores. They work functionally well in many online games. You aren't silly for buying a founders pack to support the game you like, nor are you silly for buying a mount you like. What you are silly for is not fighting for yourself to get things at a more reasonable price from this point on. Do you all actually believe that you are getting value for money from the items you buy? Those people that do, have you actually played any other microtransaction games? I can only imagine that the people who are happy with paying $40 for a spider that goes %110 are those who are heavy D&D fans who really haven't had much experience with the rest of the industry outside of PWE.
hahaha welcome to the internet, did you really believe you could educate another man behind his own screen?
You may bully the fatties in gym, but here they are gods!
I'll take you up on that. My Guardian Fighter on the free account is near 40. Still enjoying it. :cool:
Will /danceseductive for ZEN. :cool:
I could throw the same question to you.
Since you don't have the founder account to compare, how do you know there is any advantage beyond level 20?
I have 180K AD on my lvl 60 character, and I haven't touched a single AD that came with my pack.
And I have spent AD that I made on some scrolls and such. I would say I probably earned 220k total, and spent about 40k of it.
The game is two weeks old for me, and I haven't done the daily quests since level 25 or so simply because I out level the dungeons and skirmishes before I could get in a group for them.
So, exactly what advantage do I have here? The only advantage I see are the rank 3 mount and the fact I started with a companion. But my Man at Arms companion, he does more damage than my cat, and he is maxed out already. My cat is 27 out of 30 possible levels, does less damage. Prior to level 16, I had an advantage...but at lvl 60, I do not.
Actually I did support the game by buying the guardian pack (i just dont know how to make it my title on the forums).
And I would happily support this game further but the fact that I have to pay for basic items like bags makes me not want to.
In other words I am speaking with my wallet. I have bought in game currency for other games like LOL, Warframe, and Smite because I think that they have a fair pricing structure and a fair way to get stuff from the cash shop in game.
You are very confused, very very confused
IT'S NOT A COMPETITION. The thing that people don't seem to understand is someone else having an epic and you not having it does not lessen your gameplay unless you make it so. Just because someone else has something that you don't doesn't mean they are automatically better than you, or that you deserve to be equally powerful with them.
Enjoy the game and play it. If you want to invest money in the game and buy perks for your character great the devs will appreciate your support, but if you want to grind it out and spend time instead of money you can do that too. There is NOTHING in this game that you cannot buy with time grinding vs actual monetary cost. If someone is bragging about how they are in fully decked out epics because they bought their way to the top is a completely different issue.
People need to stop defining their own progress or goals in the game based on what everyone else is doing. If you don't enjoy the game then don't play it. Play something else that you like more. This game does allow you to buy some perks with money, but it is far from the best stuff in the game. Not to mention the fact that you can grind the AD to buy the things you can buy with money anyways means that there is no advantage other than time.
I spent $200 and I still have 5 characters that I'm grinding AD on to buy other things. That's because I like the game and I wanted to support it. The perks of the mount and what not are just perks to me. I would have still given them the $200 for the game. If you find it a mediocre game and don't want to support it that's your choice, but that doesn't give you the right to ridicule or condemn other people for their support. You can like things that other people don't and I can like things that you don't.
You only allow others to affect your gameplay if you choose to allow them. You don't have to judge your own progress by how you rank with others in the game. You can use whatever criteria you want or none at all.
Just a clarification, it is more akin to a breach of contract. It is not illegal. There is no law I'm aware that prevents gold sales and power leveling. If there were, most of the F2P games would probably be in violation.
Throw away the gold farming/power leveling argument. If I have sufficient disposable income, I can forgo employment and spend %100 of my waking time in the game. I have now purchased power.
If he wanted to make a more qualified argument "Purchase power only from within the game through game-owner's legitimate source", etc, he could have.
Instead we get a pithy, and incredibly inaccurate:
OP does not understand the concept of "buy" or "power". OP has a weird, egalitarian, unrealistic view of the world, and is now fighting a losing battle trying to project it into gaming, so will rely on all kinds of vacillation and dissemblance to make its point.
Anyway, trolls gotta troll.
Wait what? If you don't pay for anything, no founders pack, no nothing. You get a great game, not the best without lots of grinding for AD in later levels, but we ALL have to do that at level 60.
Those 2.5m AD they give you? Most people spent that in the first 5 minutes of logging in. It doesn't go for squat currently, but things are slowly going down in value.
That's making things like the Idols worth a lot more. We all need to sell things for AD, we all need to grind for loot, we all sell things on the market.
Anyone coming in here from <60 viewpoint has no idea how easy it is to get the AD you want to supplement your alts. Guess what? EVERY MMO is like this. When you have a high level toon you can easily help your alts.
You can:
- Solo/duo/trio lower level dungeons and keep the loot for alts
- Use the seals and trade for alts
- Farm for enhancements and then combine them
Some current Prices on Dragon:
- Bags are currently <500k AD (or $10 in the store)
- Coalescent wards <150k AD (or $10 in the store) - ALWAYS BUY WITH AD
- Tons of T1/crafted gear going for <300k each
If you're going off of the store, and not paying attention. You deserve to have an unhappy experience in this game and you are WHINING. Seriously, none of these concepts are new to an MMO. If you need some one to help you, ask more intelligent questions.
No, I labelled leechers people who want to play this without spending a dime AND moan and whine on the forum because people who spend money get stuff faster..
see?
Because I value money differently than you do. That doesn't mean that I have to value the game more, it just means that I value money less. I'm fortunate to have a career that pays me extremely well, so $200 is chump change to me. That doesn't make me better than you, but it also doesn't make me complain about how much it costs. I'm very satisfied with what I got for my $200 because I really like this game. So why should I fight for cheaper prices for you? PWE gets to decide the payment model and the prices. If you don't find the value in the pack then don't buy it with real money. Grind it out and use AD to buy it.
What would devalue the game is if they made everything so much easier/cheaper to get because then it doesn't mean anything. Just hand epics to everyone and you'll find out that none of it means anythign to anyone. I guarantee you that if you grind out the AD to buy a mount or something you will appreciate it when you get it because not everyone is as dedicated as you to grind it out. Then again you will probably lord it over the people who "bought" it because you some how think that grinding it makes you a better person.
Well I spent my time grinding up my real life career so I can buy perks in the games that I like.
Maybe Asperger...
Richer than you how? You don't know anything about my finances. I saved for three years to buy my car. That doesn't sound very rich to me.
Where is the imbalance in game? I have a friend who plays free, and we have grouped up and played through the game together, all the way to level 53. At no point did it ever feel as though I had an advantage over him, with the exception of getting across the map faster on my mount.
The part you are missing is that you don't get all the money you make per hour. There is this thing called taxes.
Then, how much do you have to make per hour to live? You have bills to pay, right? Rent, utilities, food.
That's assuming you don't pay for things like a car, insurance and medical expenses. What about clothing and household products like soap or toothpaste?
How much of your hourly money do you actually have available to spend once the things that have to be paid are paid for? How much do you have left for luxury items?
And any game you play is a luxury item.
Now, you take that number and you convert it to time and the gain of AD, then we can talk.
And just because someone lists their Zen in game for 425 each, doesn't mean it's worth that much. You choose to buy it or not.
But you can get rank 3 mounts, which the OP has mentioned as an advantage, without spending Zen. There are some on the AH all the time, and you can also get a standard mount and upgrade it with books bought with AD.
What it comes down to is, how much is a single AD worth? Hard to say exactly. But I can make about 5k in the three hours I play a day, without even trying. Crafting and daily missions, plus the prayer get's me that easily.
Let's just say they are worth 1 cent a piece. That's 50 bucks worth of AD in 3 hours.
How much money do you make in three hours, and how much of that can you actually spend on the game? I make 11.25 an hour, of which I get to keep about 9.00 of. Assuming I had no bills to pay, that would only be 27 bucks I could spend on the game.
And you also seem to miss the fact that you buy a mount once. It's not something you buy repeatedly. You get it and you don't need another.
So that 30 bucks you spend is a one time deal. 30 dollars for something lasts forever is pretty cheap. I paid more than that for my PC that plays this game, and it won't last as long.
How can you say it's over-priced? If 10% of the players spent 30 bucks only once in their entire time playing, how much money would that make? Is it a profit? Is it enough to keep the game going?
Those are important questions to ask before you start claiming things are overpriced.
Firstly I never said it was a mediocre game, in fact I rather like it but the zen store is pushing me away.
Secondly I did support the game, I bought the guardian pack and I would support more if stuff like bags weren't restricted to the zen store.
Thirdly, I am not ridiculing or condemning people for paying. What I am saying is that people who pay have too great an advantage over those who don't. Be that in gear quality, companion quality, or bag space. Look at a game like Tera, free to play but you can also but stuff on the store. Last time I checked (i haven't played tera in a bit) everything in the cash shop only gave a slight boost over people who don't sure the cash shop. Such as an exp boost or getting a mount at level 1. The gap between F2P people and people who use the cash shop is too big. And I would buy stuff off the cash shop but I don't want to support a game where people are gimped hard for not using the cash shop or spending hours upon hours grinding AD.
Lastly, It does affect my gameplay. For example in pvp if people buy better gear they instantly have an unfair advantage over me. Or the health stones on the store that people have begun to expect that you have if you want to do higher level dungeons. So yes as I said before it does affect my gameplay, and in a negative way.
No its really not. Just because you choose to rate the value of your game experience based on what everyone else is doing doesn't make it so. You can either act like an entitled brat that feels the need to be handed everything or you can just enjoy the game. Not everyone is going to value the game the same way you do. Therefore you bring this conflict upon yourself.
I guarantee you that no matter what drops *I* get in the game, it will have zero effect on your gameplay. The only way that it would affect you is if you decide to be jeleous of something I have. I don't even have to brag about it, you just have to see me and decide that I'm better than you because I have something you don't. If you don't care what I have then what I do in the game is irrelevant.
There is no universal life score that is going to make you better or worse than me unless you chose to measure yourself that way. You can certainly feel proud of your accomplishments, but you are the one that gives them value, not me.
Careful Mutharex, using an actual neural condition to disparage others will not play well. Please choose your ad hominem wisely.
No thank you.
To all people who have no intention of spending any money:
If you're not the customer, you're the product.