I honestly think its too late bud, however let us hope that ESO devs understand this.
Really? I lean more towards agreeing with clannamuir that it's the second day of open beta and they have at the very least a couple months before they really need to worry about expanding things for end game players to the point that it will become a problem.
There is still PvP to keep things interesting and right now I think cryptic is doing exactly what they should be doing and trying to work on the fundamentals and stability of the game.
How was it described again by an former dev of an MMO?... Oh yes, I remember.
'There is an small group of players who rush through all the content as fast as they. They finish it all way before the others, then start complaining that there isn't enough end-game content and demand that the developer(s) cave in to their wish for more endgame content. Thanks to this massive pressure they push, developers are often forced to cave in, neglecting other tasks (such as content for other sections and bugfixing etc) to roll out endgame content.
This causes other players to leave due to the state of the game (broken/very few content/flaming behaviour from the elitists on the forums/etc) and in the end the elitists leave the game themselves, leaving the game in shambles and broken.
They're akin to the locusts of gaming: they start on one MMO, destroy it through their demands and behaviour, leave it and rinse and repeat.'
At least, the quote was something like that.
I hope player types like that won't surface here.
I agree it would be almost impossible to produce content for the top 5% of mmo players.
~
However the trick is to produce content that will keep the top 70-90% interested, these players will then stay and keep guilds progressing. Not understanding this simple concept and to keep preaching this top 5% mantra is the blind faith of failure.
It is not about the top 5% but the 70-90% of player THAT IS pivotal to an mmo's success.
That's how WoW end game is. Diablo 3 end game is. Path of Exile end game is. GW2, SWTOR. The list goes on and on for current generation of MMO's.
WoW - Raiding. You farm bosses until the next raid is out.
Diablo 3 - You farm Act 3
Path of Exile - you do races and farm maps
GW2 - dungeons or WvW
SWTOR - same as wow, farm raids until new content
See the pattern. You're going to have to either grind the end-game content, or do other things until more content is released, then rinse and repeeat.
yes, but theres a difference from hard(long lasting endgame that takes weeks or months to accomplish and endgame, that you can finish within a week. Take your pic, but I was the long lasting hard AF boss fights that take group coordination. That and unique bosses, so far all the bosses ive seen, have been really standard in terms of what you have to do...Dodge red circle/cone kill adds. boss dies. Where atleast with WoW you have different people assigned to different roles throughout the fight. Sadly ive played WoW since release and i hold no love for it anymore.
Only reason is because of people who actually spend money within that ridicilous F2P system. I've played SW:TOR both as an sub and as an former sub, and I can tell you: F2P sucks monkeyballs. It's one of the worst cases of moneygrabbing out there.
Oh I agree wholeheartedly, but if anything that market is going to grow, that is evident in EA laying off left and right but increasing TOR's development team for a third time in two years (after many of the original devs left in disgust)
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
0
idonothaveforumnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited May 2013
yeah I have to agree I rather they work on the game as it is rather then unloading more content that needs debugging and maintenance for the time being since this is Beta perhaps try other characters, classes, slow down a bit but I rather everything be done right just requires patience and I am definitely willing to wait for this game it's the best one I have played since I got into World of Warcraft which I got bored of after a year or so.
yes, but theres a difference from hard(long lasting endgame that takes weeks or months to accomplish and endgame, that you can finish within a week. Take your pic, but I was the long lasting hard AF boss fights that take group coordination. That and unique bosses, so far all the bosses ive seen, have been really standard in terms of what you have to do...Dodge red circle/cone kill adds. boss dies. Where atleast with WoW you have different people assigned to different roles throughout the fight. Sadly ive played WoW since release and i hold no love for it anymore.
I would agree, I am level 60 and ALL the bosses have the same mechanic. Adds spawn at 25-50 and 75%, keep them managed (kill them until so they do not overwhelm the healer) and ZERG boss down.
Even the epic versions are no different, just more HPs.
Only time will tell if this game bombs, but those reading my comments here and maybe see me in a future mmo forum saying exactly the same thing might post, "you know what, this guy is actually right..."
I doubt it though, people just don't like to admit when they are wrong...
It is not about the top 5% but the 70-90% of player THAT IS pivotal to an mmo's success.
Yes but that 70 to 90% are not all end game "tramps" A good portion of that are Altaholics, another percentage are crafters, then PVPers, and even Achievement/collectors....and when you spread it out like that it is quite possibel for Cryptic to keep these groups happy and make a considerable income on their cash shop....hell STO was able to do that with one of the longest dry spells I have ever seen in content, yet night after night the game was packed.
Oh I agree wholeheartedly, but if anything that market is going to grow, that is evident in EA laying off left and right but increasing TOR's development team for a third time in two years (after many of the original devs left in disgust)
Are you really that deluded?
I would bet my mortgage you are religious and you believe a god exists
I love this thread, I am a stay at home mom because I can be due to my husband being military, when I play a game I do play a lot of hours a day but I am afk back and forth because of my little girl but yesterday after severs came up and I got to play I played 3 different classes some a few times over trying to decide what class to lvl solo and what I want to lvl with my husband.
We usually don't quest together and this game actually seemed like one it would be fun in for us, but I can also have that toon that lvl when he isn't home, I take my time I read this try to get a grasp for the game and while I have not had a char. above 12 and have been in the starting area probably about ten times the experience has been different everytime.
Rushing to the so called end and then complaining there is nothing to do is your own fault. I actually believe that the ones that end up up having a better hold on the game as a whole are the ones that take their time pace themselves and learn.
Problem with lategame in this game is that it's too easy, the early to mid dungeons are way to easy. In fact they are even easier then the normal lategame dungeons :O. Still some challenge in the end dungeons in epicmode, but its rather short.
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volcxxxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
I will the first one to pronounce fail when it come to TOR, but this isn't accurate, Jeff Hickman said during the last podcast that there are more players and the game is more profitable than it was at launch. People are snatching up cartel packs, like Rednecks snatch up Buds on the 4th of July and honestly that market is huge right now and is showing no signs of diminishing, despite what out of work disgruntled developers say.
That does not make the game fun so hickman can say anything he wants reguarding numbers. Profit does not equal a good game all it means is they have found a way to milk their subscrition for extra money with items that should be attainable in game. TOR is a very very shallow game with little in game consquence or feeling of attachment. here is to hoping that more devolper go a hybrid Sandbox route that allows the community to create their own fun, i hope the age of instance is dying we see more community driven game play.We need to have raids that is part of end game but not the total sum of it.
I'm sure this question has been asked many times but have they said if there is any end game content intended which involves more than 5 peopl? i.e. raiding.
I agree it would be almost impossible to produce content for the top 5% of mmo players.
~
However the trick is to produce content that will keep the top 70-90% interested, these players will then stay and keep guilds progressing. Not understanding this simple concept and to keep preaching this top 5% mantra is the blind faith of failure.
It is not about the top 5% but the 70-90% of player THAT IS pivotal to an mmo's success.
Even though you are trying your best to be smug and arrogant, you're not too far off. Developers do have a target demographic that they try to keep happy with content. It's usually more the %50 to %60 that they target, they will always look at the progression of the majority of the playerbase. It just makes good business sense to do so. You want to keep the most ammount of people happy, for as much time as possible. It's just a numbers game.
The reward for that top %30 has always been, to get all the great gear first and then sit on it for a bit. Then when more content comes out, they are primed and ready to go, which gives them an edge in completing all the new content as well. Rinse, repeat, but always at the pace of the majority of your playerbase. Keep the most ammount of people happy and spending for as long as possible.
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morgensteinnMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
edited May 2013
I love all the good posts guys, but i really didn`t want any flame. I LOVE NEVERWINTER. But the endgame difficulty is not challenging. its very basic fights. I hope the game stays for the long haul, I really do. I know its only just begun, but they should have had this ironed out on the difficulty and uniqueness of the fights. Its not really how much of endgame there is, it`s all about how hard it is.
As it is now, with endgame being revolved around 5 man parties. There is noone to fight for loot. so its quite easy to get loot (which makes the game even shorter in terms of dungeon running).
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currezjehMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited May 2013
I heard somewhere, that they're thinking about it, but i'm not 100% sure.
Okay... re.. I believe it was scan69, but if it was not them, my apologies, who said something akin to 'listen to the experienced MMO'ers".
I dunno if it was the same dev or another (there are too much sunken MMO's out there) who stated 'not to listen solely to the 'self-proclaimed expert MMO-gamers'' but decide on their own with some input from ALL groups of players what would be best to do next. Since listening only to the 'expert gamers' often has a few (disastrous) side-effects: A) In the end all will be alike, since people unknowingly or not refer to previous stuff they liked in other games (creating the infamous cookie-cutter effect) and often due to this more casual players will be neglected when it comes to content and wishes.
That does not make the game fun so hickman can say anything he wants reguarding numbers. Profit does not equal a good game all it means is they have found a way to milk their subscrition for extra money with items that should be attainable in game. TOR is a very very shallow game with little in game consquence or feeling of attachment. here is to hoping that more devolper go a hybrid Sandbox route that allows the community to create their own fun, i hope the age of instance is dying we see more community driven game play.We need to have raids that is part of end game but not the total sum of it.
No one is arguing that, the point is we won't be seeing it 'fail" (as in doors shut) in the next five to eight years or longer, bad is a point of view, this whole thing was started with someone saying that Neverwinter would fail if there wasn't enough endgame content, and to that I say Rhinorings.
No one is arguing that, the point is we won't be seeing it 'fail" (as in doors shut) in the next five to eight years or longer, bad is a point of view, this whole thing was started with someone saying that Neverwinter would fail if there wasn't enough endgame content, and to that I say Rhinorings.
there is no way this game can fil its F2P and the current way the cash shop runs there will be a constan rotation of people spending money in it from time to time there first order of buisness should be making the foundry more powerful, and filtering the content that they would deem tested and in line with lore . make it offical and allow the community builders to make a buck or two with thier hard work as well as putting free money in their own pockets.
Even though you are trying your best to be smug and arrogant, you're not too far off. Developers do have a target demographic that they try to keep happy with content. It's usually more the %50 to %60 that they target, they will always look at the progression of the majority of the playerbase. It just makes good business sense to do so. You want to keep the most ammount of people happy, for as much time as possible. It's just a numbers game.
The reward for that top %30 has always been, to get all the great gear first and then sit on it for a bit. Then when more content comes out, they are primed and ready to go, which gives them an edge in completing all the new content as well. Rinse, repeat, but always at the pace of the majority of your playerbase. Keep the most ammount of people happy and spending for as long as possible.
I do have a edge of troll in my replies however im glad at least someone sees the core point im making.
No one is arguing that, the point is we won't be seeing it 'fail" (as in doors shut) in the next five to eight years or longer, bad is a point of view, this whole thing was started with someone saying that Neverwinter would fail if there wasn't enough endgame content, and to that I say Rhinorings.
You do know that the more that shut servers down the less they need to spend? I agree they can run this game for 10,000 subs for little or no outlay. This does not mean the game is WIN. It isn't.
eulog33Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2013
Well as a former Hard Core raider and now a casual gamer (not an easy transistion), I see both sides. There is something to be said about keeping the top 25% of the people somewhat happy. The hard core gamers are going to have to wait for content no matter what. They will in any game. They are used to it. The key is managing to limit that wait to a reasonable time. The reason for this is pretty simple.
Gonna use some basic numbers to illustrate. Say your a casual player that takes 6 months to get through current content. and your in the 50% range of player base. Wether they admit it or not MMO developers have a number in mind when creating content. They want new content out after X amount of time of Y number of players finishing what they have out. for for example they want new content coming out 1 month after 20% of people have completed it.
So if the top 20% hardcore finish new stuff in one month, new content should come out a month after that. Now lets say they wait 3 months to put out new stuff. Well now they lost that top 20%. So now lets say the new top 20% is much less hard core. they take 3 months to finish and now they wait another 3 months to put out new stuff. Well they are gonna lose even more players and take even longer to put out new content. It is a cycle like any other.
On the other side of the coin though. ANYONE who finishes content this fast, is not in the top 20% they are in the top 5% and you can STFU. No one wants to hear you complain already when the majority of people are still leveling. NO ONE who finishes content this fast is doing it for the entertainment, they are doing it for the bragging rights. I have had my share of world first kills in WOW and it was great. But I knew the consequences of it was 2 months of nothing to do in the game. Price you pay, but you know that price before you go in.
There is a balance that needs to be maintained but catering to the elite is not it. its more so catering to the semi elite, who play the game to play and get through fast because they are good players, not because they bypassed everything to get to the end so they increased the size of there epeen.
TL : DR recap.
elitists that complain suck.
Cater to the good players not the ones racing to the end.
STFU... that is all.
You do know that the more that shut servers down the less they need to spend? I agree they can run this game for 10,000 subs for little or no outlay. This does not mean the game is WIN. It isn't.
Doesn't' mean it isn't either, win fail, good evil all depends on what side of the cow pasture you're standing on, at the end of the day all you can say is it sucks or rocks for me and that is never a universal opinion.
Take STO I am part of one of the largest fleets in game, we see very few people leave but since launch we have steadily (if not slowly) grown....I would say my gang is pretty **** happy with STO especially now, my very good RL friend loathes hates and despises everything cryptic does and thinks their evil. Neither opinion is more valid than the other and neither one writes the success or failure of the game.
It's why I laugh at hyperbole like unless X happens this game will fail or This is the bestest game eva!!!! Neverwinter will have it's audience, it just probably won't include you...unless you hang around just to complain.
Always Looking for mature laidback players/rpers for Dungeon Delves!
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solkyoshiroMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2013
Whats up with people rushing to cap for "endgame" in a brand new game. No MMO, and I literally mean NO MMO. Has had end game at release. That includes vanilla WoW. I'd be curious as to if those guys have even worked on professions, did pvp, skirmish's or any foundry missions.
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zyanzorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 14Arc User
Whats up with people rushing to cap for "endgame" in a brand new game. No MMO, and I literally mean NO MMO. Has had end game at release. That includes vanilla WoW. I'd be curious as to if those guys have even worked on professions, did pvp, skirmish's or any foundry missions.
What's wrong with worrying about what there's going to be to entertain you once you reach the max level? The Endgame content of the game is the main thing that keeps the Hard Core audience of the game here. I know for me personally, I won't be here long if they don't, at least, increase the difficulty of their so called "Epic"(lol) Dungeons.
As for people saying Foundry is Endgame, that won't last long. Make a system that lets you queue up for Foundry quests and allow Foundry editors to make proper bosses and MAYBE Foundry can be something that can keep people interested longer. Still though, the main PvE content has to come from Cryptic, not the Foundry.
End-game content is simply a name. It is something you do once you max level. Ironically end game content can be relatively "endless."
If there is nothing to do after the initial leveling content, the game will die fast. End-game changes it from a level grind to some other grind like gear, for example.
Do not underestimate its importance.
And I am curious which games that had no end-game content that you enjoyed?
Yea, really I can't think of a single MMO that didn't have end-game, except for maybe GW2 in which case end-game is basically endless PVP, as the game was designed and advertised.. (even then GW2 seems to be faltering already)
Comments
Really? I lean more towards agreeing with clannamuir that it's the second day of open beta and they have at the very least a couple months before they really need to worry about expanding things for end game players to the point that it will become a problem.
There is still PvP to keep things interesting and right now I think cryptic is doing exactly what they should be doing and trying to work on the fundamentals and stability of the game.
I agree it would be almost impossible to produce content for the top 5% of mmo players.
~
However the trick is to produce content that will keep the top 70-90% interested, these players will then stay and keep guilds progressing. Not understanding this simple concept and to keep preaching this top 5% mantra is the blind faith of failure.
It is not about the top 5% but the 70-90% of player THAT IS pivotal to an mmo's success.
yes, but theres a difference from hard(long lasting endgame that takes weeks or months to accomplish and endgame, that you can finish within a week. Take your pic, but I was the long lasting hard AF boss fights that take group coordination. That and unique bosses, so far all the bosses ive seen, have been really standard in terms of what you have to do...Dodge red circle/cone kill adds. boss dies. Where atleast with WoW you have different people assigned to different roles throughout the fight. Sadly ive played WoW since release and i hold no love for it anymore.
Oh I agree wholeheartedly, but if anything that market is going to grow, that is evident in EA laying off left and right but increasing TOR's development team for a third time in two years (after many of the original devs left in disgust)
I would agree, I am level 60 and ALL the bosses have the same mechanic. Adds spawn at 25-50 and 75%, keep them managed (kill them until so they do not overwhelm the healer) and ZERG boss down.
Even the epic versions are no different, just more HPs.
Only time will tell if this game bombs, but those reading my comments here and maybe see me in a future mmo forum saying exactly the same thing might post, "you know what, this guy is actually right..."
I doubt it though, people just don't like to admit when they are wrong...
Yes but that 70 to 90% are not all end game "tramps" A good portion of that are Altaholics, another percentage are crafters, then PVPers, and even Achievement/collectors....and when you spread it out like that it is quite possibel for Cryptic to keep these groups happy and make a considerable income on their cash shop....hell STO was able to do that with one of the longest dry spells I have ever seen in content, yet night after night the game was packed.
Are you really that deluded?
I would bet my mortgage you are religious and you believe a god exists
We usually don't quest together and this game actually seemed like one it would be fun in for us, but I can also have that toon that lvl when he isn't home, I take my time I read this try to get a grasp for the game and while I have not had a char. above 12 and have been in the starting area probably about ten times the experience has been different everytime.
Rushing to the so called end and then complaining there is nothing to do is your own fault. I actually believe that the ones that end up up having a better hold on the game as a whole are the ones that take their time pace themselves and learn.
Character handle:@skylia120410
(www.gwfnw.weebly.com)
GWF GUIDE SITE: Still being worked on not 60 yet
Divine Misfits (one of the Guild Leaders)(Guild Site Manager)
www.divinemisfits.guildlaunch.com
foundry need to have REAL bosses and REAL reward to be counted as "endgame".
Now it is just entertainment and distraction and every hardcore player will not count it as endgame.
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest
Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ecy4o6JqLc
That does not make the game fun so hickman can say anything he wants reguarding numbers. Profit does not equal a good game all it means is they have found a way to milk their subscrition for extra money with items that should be attainable in game. TOR is a very very shallow game with little in game consquence or feeling of attachment. here is to hoping that more devolper go a hybrid Sandbox route that allows the community to create their own fun, i hope the age of instance is dying we see more community driven game play.We need to have raids that is part of end game but not the total sum of it.
Even though you are trying your best to be smug and arrogant, you're not too far off. Developers do have a target demographic that they try to keep happy with content. It's usually more the %50 to %60 that they target, they will always look at the progression of the majority of the playerbase. It just makes good business sense to do so. You want to keep the most ammount of people happy, for as much time as possible. It's just a numbers game.
The reward for that top %30 has always been, to get all the great gear first and then sit on it for a bit. Then when more content comes out, they are primed and ready to go, which gives them an edge in completing all the new content as well. Rinse, repeat, but always at the pace of the majority of your playerbase. Keep the most ammount of people happy and spending for as long as possible.
As it is now, with endgame being revolved around 5 man parties. There is noone to fight for loot. so its quite easy to get loot (which makes the game even shorter in terms of dungeon running).
this si the only short coming of foundry really that and not having really any power over scripting and encounter customizing
I dunno if it was the same dev or another (there are too much sunken MMO's out there) who stated 'not to listen solely to the 'self-proclaimed expert MMO-gamers'' but decide on their own with some input from ALL groups of players what would be best to do next. Since listening only to the 'expert gamers' often has a few (disastrous) side-effects: A) In the end all will be alike, since people unknowingly or not refer to previous stuff they liked in other games (creating the infamous cookie-cutter effect) and
Just my 2 cents.
No one is arguing that, the point is we won't be seeing it 'fail" (as in doors shut) in the next five to eight years or longer, bad is a point of view, this whole thing was started with someone saying that Neverwinter would fail if there wasn't enough endgame content, and to that I say Rhinorings.
Nailed it.
The guys I know working on foundry stuff say the same thing, not many players are going to run foundry at end game.
I do have a edge of troll in my replies however im glad at least someone sees the core point im making.
You do know that the more that shut servers down the less they need to spend? I agree they can run this game for 10,000 subs for little or no outlay. This does not mean the game is WIN. It isn't.
Gonna use some basic numbers to illustrate. Say your a casual player that takes 6 months to get through current content. and your in the 50% range of player base. Wether they admit it or not MMO developers have a number in mind when creating content. They want new content out after X amount of time of Y number of players finishing what they have out. for for example they want new content coming out 1 month after 20% of people have completed it.
So if the top 20% hardcore finish new stuff in one month, new content should come out a month after that. Now lets say they wait 3 months to put out new stuff. Well now they lost that top 20%. So now lets say the new top 20% is much less hard core. they take 3 months to finish and now they wait another 3 months to put out new stuff. Well they are gonna lose even more players and take even longer to put out new content. It is a cycle like any other.
On the other side of the coin though. ANYONE who finishes content this fast, is not in the top 20% they are in the top 5% and you can STFU. No one wants to hear you complain already when the majority of people are still leveling. NO ONE who finishes content this fast is doing it for the entertainment, they are doing it for the bragging rights. I have had my share of world first kills in WOW and it was great. But I knew the consequences of it was 2 months of nothing to do in the game. Price you pay, but you know that price before you go in.
There is a balance that needs to be maintained but catering to the elite is not it. its more so catering to the semi elite, who play the game to play and get through fast because they are good players, not because they bypassed everything to get to the end so they increased the size of there epeen.
TL : DR recap.
elitists that complain suck.
Cater to the good players not the ones racing to the end.
STFU... that is all.
Doesn't' mean it isn't either, win fail, good evil all depends on what side of the cow pasture you're standing on, at the end of the day all you can say is it sucks or rocks for me and that is never a universal opinion.
Take STO I am part of one of the largest fleets in game, we see very few people leave but since launch we have steadily (if not slowly) grown....I would say my gang is pretty **** happy with STO especially now, my very good RL friend loathes hates and despises everything cryptic does and thinks their evil. Neither opinion is more valid than the other and neither one writes the success or failure of the game.
It's why I laugh at hyperbole like unless X happens this game will fail or This is the bestest game eva!!!! Neverwinter will have it's audience, it just probably won't include you...unless you hang around just to complain.
There is Foundry quest that require more than 2-3 people. You just have to look.
What's wrong with worrying about what there's going to be to entertain you once you reach the max level? The Endgame content of the game is the main thing that keeps the Hard Core audience of the game here. I know for me personally, I won't be here long if they don't, at least, increase the difficulty of their so called "Epic"(lol) Dungeons.
As for people saying Foundry is Endgame, that won't last long. Make a system that lets you queue up for Foundry quests and allow Foundry editors to make proper bosses and MAYBE Foundry can be something that can keep people interested longer. Still though, the main PvE content has to come from Cryptic, not the Foundry.
Yea, really I can't think of a single MMO that didn't have end-game, except for maybe GW2 in which case end-game is basically endless PVP, as the game was designed and advertised.. (even then GW2 seems to be faltering already)