You can't compare the cost of ~9 years worth of subscription fees and expansions to essentially the "initial" cost of Neverwinter. At least not apples to apples. Remove the subscription fees and you have a more accurate initial comparison. Since we don't know if there will be costs incurred over time with this game (expansions, new races/classes, etc.).. You would really have to make a cost comparison every month and inch WoW up $15 at a time to be accurate.
EDIT: Just want to add, that there IS a reason to be concerned about other people being able to buy gear (indirectly, whatever). It can have a negative impact on the longevity of the game if enough people do it. If content is challenging, it can help persuade people to (out of frustration or otherwise) purchase a few extra pieces of gear with real money. Thus helping entire groups clear content faster and, eventually, speed up the games decline if the devs cant keep up with *new* content.
the point of the list is what each game requires you to pay to play at max level. . .
In nine years the cost of Neverwinter will still be less than WoW today. . .
And this has what to do with anything? The fact that they started out with a different model has no relevance whatsoever.
Actually it has -everything- to do with it.
The guy's point was that cashshops that are successful become horrible bloo-from-a-stone nightmares, and he used EQ2 and SWTOR as examples...But those games STARTED with really bad F2P models, they didn't have them to begin with, so using them as examples makes no sense.
0
heurouMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
have you played team fortress before? they have a variety of diffrent stats and modifers on the things you buy from the cash shop how is that cosmetic
0
verylittleanaxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 20Arc User
I totally get the concept of free to play. I understand that the money has to come from somewhere. Those lock boxes, pots, health stones, all that stuff is fine and I'll probably even buy some.
The OP, however, is right about one thing. If the best gear in the game is obtainable through any sneaky combination of RL transactions, then that needs to be changed. I don't care if it's, buy the seal then put it on the AH and someone buys it with diamonds, or buy the crafting ingredient with RL cash, or however. They should have some stuff in this game that is no drop or bop or whatever... not everything, just some stuff that is kept sacred.
If you don't see that everything on AH can effectively be bought with real life money then you either havn't played the game or simply don't posses the ability to add two concepts.
I do know that the end game gear will be BoE because the vendros selling the best gear in game for seals are already available in the protectors enclave maked area. Dragon seals currently buys the best gear in game and that gear is BoE.
As for the whole "why do you care someone buys gear for $". If you don't get why this makes it less fun for me then I can't explain it to you. It's how it is, and I know many, though not all, feel the same way about it as I do. I ruins the point of getting strong through effort, if many people reach the same point effortless.
Sorry, you're just not going to find those people who want a level playing field without outside influence at a F2P/P2W games' site. Well, except for the few arseholes who dont mind mucking up the place to waste time, such as myself.
They are woefully naive or willfully ignorant...either way, I raised my kids, I havent time to raise the internet too.
Though this was news that I wouldnt be able to discard the things. That's just offensive. So you have to spend AD to get rid of these boxes..hmm...think I will just throw them up for 1 AD for the short time I will play this game til I become more disgusted by cryptic than I am lured by DnD.
If I havent offended you today....dont worry!!!....there's always tomorrow. Of course, you could also go to here for all I care.
0
verylittleanaxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 20Arc User
No pay attention. Drake seals only give you a few tier 2 stuff while the other tier 2 is bought with Unicorn seals.
And we do not know for sure if the gear is going to be character bound. I bought something with my lion seals and it was bound to me. I did not equip it and could not trade it to 3 seperate friends.
p.s. Just checked the AH, as of now there is no gear from seals on the ah. Not lion or manticore or any of them.
While the first point doesnt matter the least in this context, the last point is truely interesting. For me this games is only worth playing of I have assurance that the best gear will be partly if not fully effectively BoP.
0
terradraconisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 17Arc User
Im amazed how many people accept pay-to-win as something normal, IS NOT RIGHT! And the usual - "they have to keep the game running somehow". No, they dont have to make it pay-to-win in order to maintain the servers and add new content. Look at LoL, Path of Exile, Team Fortress and many more.
Your right they don't have to keep the game running they can let it close.
Let me ask you? In your world with fuzzy unicorns farting rainbows out their butts how exactly does the company make money to keep the game open if the game is really free with no cash store or any other thing?
Ah, good thing I came here now as I was thinking of a founders pack.
Fairly typical token free to play system of this era shunning the subscription model purely because SWToR and other subscription games failed and what EAWare did with it.
You can't overcharge and nickel and dime players as easy if there's a subscription.
Zen can be traded for AD. If end game gear can be acquired this way doesn't it defeat the purpose of a dungeon?
Even if this was true no it would not. The purpose of a dungeon and playing for that matter is enjoyment entertainment and adventure .These days though its become more about look at my shiney and i have more then you so i must be the better then you
Not really a discussion topic as much as a simple information and a "this can't be for real".
Everyone was fascinated with the F2P model in LoL. Everyone know a MMO is expensive to sustain. Perfect world wanted to make it work, but by doing so, they have taken some decisions that runs the game in my opinion.
By implementing the AD for ZEN mechanic, PW has effectively made a workaround for the claims that this game is pay to win. Everything in the ZEN store is free - if you grind AD. So even though you need stuff from the zen store, its free if you really want it (and have no life at all).
All end game gear is BoE. It is tradeable on the AH and will cost AD. This means that everyone can buy ZEN, trade for AD and get the best end game gear in the game without entering a dungeon or being in a party. The point of the game is ruined for me at this point.
Now, I want to bring one small example of how PW tries to squeeze every $ out of the player they possibly can:
Some times (about 4 times up until level 20) you find an epic dropbox. This is the first epic item you come across and you are happy! Now, to open the box, you need a key. The key can ONLY be obtained through the ZEN store. This is a low and distasteful way of trying to make players buy and spend even more ZEN. When I find my first epic item, I dont want it to be some scam item the company behind the game has designed to try and make me pay money.
This is PWI, LOL You expected different? Have you ever played a PWI game before? This company is the WORST f2p company out there.
Used to think this, until I tried (yeah, yeah, "boobies") Scarlet Blade recently. Aeria makes PWI look like a generous charity. SB - generic Korean uber-grinder, with lots of skin & revealing costumes. Very little content, lots of grinding, and the cash shop is fantastically abusive - nearly everything interesting is in a lockbox with terrible odds. And then there's the weekend "tier" and "ladder" sales - spend X amount of money in the cash shop, get a prize!...... yeah, and these ladders go up into the hundreds of dollars. The one this past weekend, for a new costume - someone figured out that you'd have to spend $500 to get the costume guaranteed. After people complained that everything they wanted (costume, permanent inventory expansion, permanent bank expansion) was only in random boxes, they responded by putting out a pack containing a guaranteed costume, bag, and bank.... for $200.
So, yeah. PWI? Not nearly as bad as Aeria.
Personally, I've been having fun with Star Trek Online.... yeah, there's lockboxes, but they're 1. easy to ignore, and 2. easy to get keys for, even without $$$. The cash shop has plenty of stuff in it, most of it reasonably priced. And the "you can get Zen in-game" function actually works well, because of the intermediate Dilithium market - usable amounts of zen aren't incredibly over-inflated expensive to get. (I gather that the Astral Diamonds will serve a similar mode here. Unlike other games where it was just straight in-game currency <-> zen, and you had to be uber-rich to get any)
I don't really understand how people being able to buy gear impacts you. You can still get this gear through running that dungeon right? If so, not sure what issue is.
It's an elitist endgame raider thing. I remember from back when I played WoW - anytime it got easier for people to get "endgame gear", the hardcore raider types would start wailing - OMG, other people can get the Uber Gear that I have! It's now worthless!
/facepalm
Would prefer a subscription with a level playing field than the pay to win method.
There is no prize to win, and this would not be pay-to-win even if there were. You cannot buy any gear in the cash store, especially none that is not available in the game. And things like the Greater Healthstone is disabled in PvP, for example.
Subscriptions do not ensure a "level playing field", because a) people with no jobs and families can play 16 hours a day and have an impossibly to catch up on advantage and b) in those games people can buy gold from third parties, which then opens access to gear, mounts and titles. Plus, they have cash stores, too.
I used to prefer subscription models too, until I stopped paying for WoW and lost access to everything I paid over $2000 over several years. These days I much prefer business models where I can decide how much or how little I spend, and be sure that I can continue to use my virtual items for as long as the game exists. What's not to like?
I used to prefer subscription models too, until I stopped paying for WoW and lost access to everything I paid over $2000 over several years. These days I much prefer business models where I can decide how much or how little I spend, and be sure that I can continue to use my virtual items for as long as the game exists. What's not to like?
100% agree. I love being able to log in and play with the things I paid for. It's great to only have to spend money on things I feel are worth it.
0
grodelMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited April 2013
Just because WOW uses a system of BoP dosnt mean that BoE is bad. Iam a long time Ultima Online player and that game never used either BoP or BoE (except for very rare cases), so basicly all items, artifacts, could be traded. That worked for 15 years so I guess its gonna work here too
Not really a discussion topic as much as a simple information and a "this can't be for real".
Everyone was fascinated with the F2P model in LoL. Everyone know a MMO is expensive to sustain. Perfect world wanted to make it work, but by doing so, they have taken some decisions that runs the game in my opinion.
By implementing the AD for ZEN mechanic, PW has effectively made a workaround for the claims that this game is pay to win. Everything in the ZEN store is free - if you grind AD. So even though you need stuff from the zen store, its free if you really want it (and have no life at all).
All end game gear is BoE. It is tradeable on the AH and will cost AD. This means that everyone can buy ZEN, trade for AD and get the best end game gear in the game without entering a dungeon or being in a party. The point of the game is ruined for me at this point.
Now, I want to bring one small example of how PW tries to squeeze every $ out of the player they possibly can:
Some times (about 4 times up until level 20) you find an epic dropbox. This is the first epic item you come across and you are happy! Now, to open the box, you need a key. The key can ONLY be obtained through the ZEN store. This is a low and distasteful way of trying to make players buy and spend even more ZEN. When I find my first epic item, I dont want it to be some scam item the company behind the game has designed to try and make me pay money.
As is common, you mistake P2W for P2Epeen which are not the same things. If you want to know what P2W is, then go look up ZT Online. I haven't seen a Western game come close to being true P2W. This is the 21st Century and the modern age of gaming - P2Epeen is not an issue in today's society.
"The ability to LeetSpeak does not make one intelligent." "Ask a stupid question and the Morons will answer." "The True measure of a gamer is the ability to ignore epeen and just enjoy a game" -- Hanok Odbrook
Not really a discussion topic as much as a simple information and a "this can't be for real".
Everyone was fascinated with the F2P model in LoL. Everyone know a MMO is expensive to sustain. Perfect world wanted to make it work, but by doing so, they have taken some decisions that runs the game in my opinion.
By implementing the AD for ZEN mechanic, PW has effectively made a workaround for the claims that this game is pay to win. Everything in the ZEN store is free - if you grind AD. So even though you need stuff from the zen store, its free if you really want it (and have no life at all).
All end game gear is BoE. It is tradeable on the AH and will cost AD. This means that everyone can buy ZEN, trade for AD and get the best end game gear in the game without entering a dungeon or being in a party. The point of the game is ruined for me at this point.
Now, I want to bring one small example of how PW tries to squeeze every $ out of the player they possibly can:
Some times (about 4 times up until level 20) you find an epic dropbox. This is the first epic item you come across and you are happy! Now, to open the box, you need a key. The key can ONLY be obtained through the ZEN store. This is a low and distasteful way of trying to make players buy and spend even more ZEN. When I find my first epic item, I dont want it to be some scam item the company behind the game has designed to try and make me pay money.
As you said, MMO's are expensive to produce and keep up. How do you suggest they make money (if they aren't going to charge to dl the game and aren't gonna charge monthly subs) if they don't sell anything that seems worthwhile?
There has to be something worth while that costs $ or they aren't gonna make money. And as long something that's worth while costs $, the people who want everything for free will complain, not understanding that if it weren't for the people paying for said items the game either wouldn't exist or actually cost money to play.
"He who buys way to gear, must realise only time increases skill"
- delushin
I will admit options to use cash from RL for in game items is very hard for someone like me who loves having all the collectables, I get why people are disappointed or angry and I also get why some love it and others couldn't care less.
At various stages of my gaming life I have been through all of the different angles you can hit, and sat not only on the fence but either side as well. What people forget is that these types of models are not /surprise buttsecs I am taking your monies ... They give you a chance to make a decision, to pay or not to pay.
"He who never fell, has never climbed" - Unknown
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
All end game gear is BoE. It is tradeable on the AH and will cost AD. This means that everyone can buy ZEN, trade for AD and get the best end game gear in the game without entering a dungeon or being in a party. The point of the game is ruined for me at this point.
And then what? Say I "bought" a full set of Epic armor. Now I don't even have to play the game anymore...wait...so winning is not getting to play the game? I'm not sure how that works?
It's like ordering the most expensive steak at a restaurant, throwing it away before eating it and then declaring that you win the meal because you emptied your plate first.
Got to say that I am not a big fan of a paying over a dollar per lockbox either, but they have to support themselves somehow.
Maybe drop cost of keys to 2 for a dollar? I would definitely buy more then.
0
verylittleanaxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited April 2013
I think the essense of this whole discussion can be summed up pretty briefly.
Everyone knows bad and good examples of the F2P model. Some of the good are GGG (PoE) and Riot (LoL). The bad are countless, lol. Anyway, this core difference is how far you take the model. To be honest, I believe the one single core difference is how you manage gear. Let's look at the things you can buy for $ in NWO:
1. mounts
2. bags
3. companions
4. companion slots
5. character slots
6. bank slots
7. all the guild stuff noone has discovered yet
8. Armor dye, and other fasion stuff
9. Xp boosts
10. helpful level packs
11. faster profession leveling
12. respec tokens
13. rename tokens
14. They claim foundry stuff will be free, but I doubt it.
... the list goes on. this is what I remember on top of my head after playing for a couple of days.
Now to the point, and this is the core of it all. It is acceptable that all of this junk is available (the xp boost and inventory space + guild stuff is kind of not ok, though), and some will buy, some will play for free - I dont care at all. What I DO care about is gear. If you can -on top of this insane list- buy the best gear in game for $, then what is the point in playing exactly? I can't see it. I really can't. I envy people who will find it fun to play a game where everything can be equired with $. It's like being an amature sportman and buying world cup trophies, then go meet all the other amatures and compare the trophies. The fanicyest is the most expensive. Someone at some point must realize they are being boned by a trophy company.
Comments
With strictly cosmetic value.
the point of the list is what each game requires you to pay to play at max level. . .
In nine years the cost of Neverwinter will still be less than WoW today. . .
Uhh, what?
Actually it has -everything- to do with it.
The guy's point was that cashshops that are successful become horrible bloo-from-a-stone nightmares, and he used EQ2 and SWTOR as examples...But those games STARTED with really bad F2P models, they didn't have them to begin with, so using them as examples makes no sense.
This is my main concern as well.
Sorry, you're just not going to find those people who want a level playing field without outside influence at a F2P/P2W games' site. Well, except for the few arseholes who dont mind mucking up the place to waste time, such as myself.
They are woefully naive or willfully ignorant...either way, I raised my kids, I havent time to raise the internet too.
Though this was news that I wouldnt be able to discard the things. That's just offensive. So you have to spend AD to get rid of these boxes..hmm...think I will just throw them up for 1 AD for the short time I will play this game til I become more disgusted by cryptic than I am lured by DnD.
While the first point doesnt matter the least in this context, the last point is truely interesting. For me this games is only worth playing of I have assurance that the best gear will be partly if not fully effectively BoP.
Your right they don't have to keep the game running they can let it close.
Let me ask you? In your world with fuzzy unicorns farting rainbows out their butts how exactly does the company make money to keep the game open if the game is really free with no cash store or any other thing?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Fairly typical token free to play system of this era shunning the subscription model purely because SWToR and other subscription games failed and what EAWare did with it.
You can't overcharge and nickel and dime players as easy if there's a subscription.
Even if this was true no it would not. The purpose of a dungeon and playing for that matter is enjoyment entertainment and adventure .These days though its become more about look at my shiney and i have more then you so i must be the better then you
Considering they are in the Astral Diamond shop for 200 AD ... someone got ripped and it wasnt you lol.
Do you know what is IN the lockbox?
Would prefer a subscription with a level playing field than the pay to win method.
please enlighten me, becuase I don't know and I would love to
That's fine for you. I have wife/kids/job, sub is hardly worth it for me.
Used to think this, until I tried (yeah, yeah, "boobies") Scarlet Blade recently. Aeria makes PWI look like a generous charity. SB - generic Korean uber-grinder, with lots of skin & revealing costumes. Very little content, lots of grinding, and the cash shop is fantastically abusive - nearly everything interesting is in a lockbox with terrible odds. And then there's the weekend "tier" and "ladder" sales - spend X amount of money in the cash shop, get a prize!...... yeah, and these ladders go up into the hundreds of dollars. The one this past weekend, for a new costume - someone figured out that you'd have to spend $500 to get the costume guaranteed. After people complained that everything they wanted (costume, permanent inventory expansion, permanent bank expansion) was only in random boxes, they responded by putting out a pack containing a guaranteed costume, bag, and bank.... for $200.
So, yeah. PWI? Not nearly as bad as Aeria.
Personally, I've been having fun with Star Trek Online.... yeah, there's lockboxes, but they're 1. easy to ignore, and 2. easy to get keys for, even without $$$. The cash shop has plenty of stuff in it, most of it reasonably priced. And the "you can get Zen in-game" function actually works well, because of the intermediate Dilithium market - usable amounts of zen aren't incredibly over-inflated expensive to get. (I gather that the Astral Diamonds will serve a similar mode here. Unlike other games where it was just straight in-game currency <-> zen, and you had to be uber-rich to get any)
It's an elitist endgame raider thing. I remember from back when I played WoW - anytime it got easier for people to get "endgame gear", the hardcore raider types would start wailing - OMG, other people can get the Uber Gear that I have! It's now worthless!
/facepalm
There is no prize to win, and this would not be pay-to-win even if there were. You cannot buy any gear in the cash store, especially none that is not available in the game. And things like the Greater Healthstone is disabled in PvP, for example.
Subscriptions do not ensure a "level playing field", because a) people with no jobs and families can play 16 hours a day and have an impossibly to catch up on advantage and b) in those games people can buy gold from third parties, which then opens access to gear, mounts and titles. Plus, they have cash stores, too.
I used to prefer subscription models too, until I stopped paying for WoW and lost access to everything I paid over $2000 over several years. These days I much prefer business models where I can decide how much or how little I spend, and be sure that I can continue to use my virtual items for as long as the game exists. What's not to like?
You just can't stop, can you?
Want to know why Neverwinter is so laggy? Check out the "Latency" section in this thread.
100% agree. I love being able to log in and play with the things I paid for. It's great to only have to spend money on things I feel are worth it.
If its the same purple lockbox I now have 7 of its that fiery horse mount.
As is common, you mistake P2W for P2Epeen which are not the same things. If you want to know what P2W is, then go look up ZT Online. I haven't seen a Western game come close to being true P2W. This is the 21st Century and the modern age of gaming - P2Epeen is not an issue in today's society.
"Ask a stupid question and the Morons will answer."
"The True measure of a gamer is the ability to ignore epeen and just enjoy a game" -- Hanok Odbrook
That's a true, buzz kill...
As you said, MMO's are expensive to produce and keep up. How do you suggest they make money (if they aren't going to charge to dl the game and aren't gonna charge monthly subs) if they don't sell anything that seems worthwhile?
There has to be something worth while that costs $ or they aren't gonna make money. And as long something that's worth while costs $, the people who want everything for free will complain, not understanding that if it weren't for the people paying for said items the game either wouldn't exist or actually cost money to play.
- delushin
I will admit options to use cash from RL for in game items is very hard for someone like me who loves having all the collectables, I get why people are disappointed or angry and I also get why some love it and others couldn't care less.
At various stages of my gaming life I have been through all of the different angles you can hit, and sat not only on the fence but either side as well. What people forget is that these types of models are not /surprise buttsecs I am taking your monies ... They give you a chance to make a decision, to pay or not to pay.
- Unknown
And then what? Say I "bought" a full set of Epic armor. Now I don't even have to play the game anymore...wait...so winning is not getting to play the game? I'm not sure how that works?
It's like ordering the most expensive steak at a restaurant, throwing it away before eating it and then declaring that you win the meal because you emptied your plate first.
Maybe drop cost of keys to 2 for a dollar? I would definitely buy more then.
Everyone knows bad and good examples of the F2P model. Some of the good are GGG (PoE) and Riot (LoL). The bad are countless, lol. Anyway, this core difference is how far you take the model. To be honest, I believe the one single core difference is how you manage gear. Let's look at the things you can buy for $ in NWO:
1. mounts
2. bags
3. companions
4. companion slots
5. character slots
6. bank slots
7. all the guild stuff noone has discovered yet
8. Armor dye, and other fasion stuff
9. Xp boosts
10. helpful level packs
11. faster profession leveling
12. respec tokens
13. rename tokens
14. They claim foundry stuff will be free, but I doubt it.
... the list goes on. this is what I remember on top of my head after playing for a couple of days.
Now to the point, and this is the core of it all. It is acceptable that all of this junk is available (the xp boost and inventory space + guild stuff is kind of not ok, though), and some will buy, some will play for free - I dont care at all. What I DO care about is gear. If you can -on top of this insane list- buy the best gear in game for $, then what is the point in playing exactly? I can't see it. I really can't. I envy people who will find it fun to play a game where everything can be equired with $. It's like being an amature sportman and buying world cup trophies, then go meet all the other amatures and compare the trophies. The fanicyest is the most expensive. Someone at some point must realize they are being boned by a trophy company.