well i dont know how 4e goes, but if it's anything like the last 30 years...
Wizard wins. With the right build you might draw your sword before he wail of the banshee's your face into dirt.
To clarify: i don't mind pvp being in the game. I mind changing the game for the sake of pvp. "nerf wizard" coming to a forum near you. If The developers ignore this, then good.
So why is it so bad for someone to suggest the pvp skills being separate from the pve? Sounds like you just really dislike any kind of pvp but are okay with any nerfs to pvp hurting your pve experience. Logic at its finest.
So why is it so bad for someone to suggest the pvp skills being separate from the pve? Sounds like you just really dislike any kind of pvp but are okay with any nerfs to pvp hurting your pve experience. Logic at its finest.
Development time and focus shifting away from the game as intended is especially impactful with a monetization system like what cryptic is doing.
However, if they go that route, i wont really raise a stink about it, it just seems to me that well.. if some game does what you want better, why petition to change another game into that game? Why not just.. play the game you like? seems like wasted effort to me.
there is the minor bit about immersion breaking. If suddenly my character's powers behave completley differently, it kind of bugs me. I'd much rather go into pvp and have my guardian get his brains stomped on by wizards than walk in and the game's totally different.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Cryptic does not do PvP well, and they are generally for more hesitant than most companies to nerf a class based on PvP while knowing it will HAMSTER of the PvEers. Naturally that leads to grossly imbalanced classes and mechanics.
The PvPers will flock to another game soon enough.
THIS EXACTLY
I keep reading folks saying they see the "POTENTIAL" here. If PVP here is not already awesomesauce with a cookie on top. Dont waste your time in the hope it will some how get better.
Hope is all fine and dandy. But its a fools game when all you have to do is look at how Cryptic has been doing things for YEARS in their other games. Those games had potential too. Just spend a few moments in their PVP forums for examples of how that potential was spent.
Ive played all Cryptics games. I actually enjoy them bunches. But my time with them has left with me my expectations tempered and the ability to ignore promises and potential until something is actually delivered.
Im hoping ill end up wrong. But if you are expecting anything more then PVP to be anything more then it currently is and anything more then tacked on flavor. You are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Development time and focus shifting away from the game as intended is especially impactful with a monetization system like what cryptic is doing.
However, if they go that route, i wont really raise a stink about it, it just seems to me that well.. if some game does what you want better, why petition to change another game into that game? Why not just.. play the game you like? seems like wasted effort to me.
there is the minor bit about immersion breaking. If suddenly my character's powers behave completley differently, it kind of bugs me. I'd much rather go into pvp and have my guardian get his brains stomped on by wizards than walk in and the game's totally different.
It doesn't have to be instant in terms of development. Immersion breaking wouldn't be a factor because it wouldn't change the skills appearance, effects, or anything like that, just numbers.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason why I don't play guild wars is because its outdated and void of players because of the release of guild wars 2? Also by that reasoning any one that ever suggests any kind of compromise from any other game, should just go play that game. Your pen and paper dnd can't translate to a video game completely sorry.
pikavoirMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited April 2013
If you think D&D is all about cooperation, you've never played a campaign with a chaotic evil dbag rogue on your team.
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direcrowBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I can't, for the life of me, understand why PVPers flock from rpg to rpg. Demanding PVP be a focus, to the one genre of online gaming designed from the bottom up for PVE gameplay. Its the only option for PVE players, and every game has the same group of PVPers show up, plant their flag, and immediately fill whatever parts of the forums they can with:
Demands for nerfs
More PVP content
Ladders
Open world gankfests
and when these are not met, the boards are peppered with declarations of the game's imagined death, doomsaying, and tossing the word "carebear" around as much as possible to HAMSTER off the PVE players before they inevitably rage quit, and move on to the next rpg, to plant their demands/desires.
Coming here solely for the PVP, is like going to SWTOR solely for the space missions. Surely there are better options, for such a focused desire. I'd love to play a mech based co-op PVE game. But you don't see me going to Mechwarrior Online, and demanding PVE.
Suddenly it's ok, to expect PVP in every online game. But if I went to the Battlefield, CoD, or any other online shooter community, and began to demand more roleplaying opportunities, or player housing, or stats, guess how long I'd last before I was eaten alive.
There are virtually no options now, for a purely PVE based game, and yet we're singled out as selfish for wanting a few.
Why would anyone come to a game, that they know is PVE based, solely for PVP? There are tons of PVP based mmorpgs, and very few PVE exclusive ones anymore. And even if there weren't, RPGs are the only game in town for us.
If you want PVP, you have several GENRES of games out there for you. "Selfish" is wanting everything else.
Mindflayer Shard - @direcrow
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
so far loving pvp in this game, no reason why an mmo wouldnt have pvp, playing against ppl is the only content that is player driven and never gets old!!! no need to wait for devs to give new tools, can always face more players in pvp!
What is democrazy? It is a government in which the ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens.
--Nom Anor
I am an avid PvPer but am coming to Neverwinter primarily for the foundry and the pve content that can be created with it. I don't doubt there are people out there like Direcrow explains but I don't think its that blown out of proportions.
Even if Pvpers do complain, if this game is as PvE focused as everyone believes it to be than it won't matter since developers won't give them the time of day. If they do change anything regarding PvP they will most definitely take its adverse affects regarding PvE into serious considerations.
The game is, as of my post here, in it's first day of Open Beta head start. Cryptic hasn't nerfed anything from PvP, has shown no signs that they will. Why are we getting up in arms about this?
The notion of classes being nerfed because of PvP is an old horse. I'm confident that Cryptic is well aware of it.
I agree. I have made my concerns regarding PvP negatively affecting PvE pretty clear...but nothing has been done yet, the game is just about to launch, and I'm going to trust that the devs know what they're doing. I think that this game was made by primarily guys and gals that really enjoy traditional DnD gameplay and the elements that stay true to that, so I'm going to have faith that they will work through the process and come out with a pretty well polished game. Hopefully that is not misplaced optimism. Any changes that have made to classes so far I'm going to just chalk up to it being in beta still. That's what beta is and that's what it's there for...to test things out on different ends of the spectrum and find out where your middle ground is and get the game where you want it. I am going to be playing this game quite a bit and will obviously be keeping a close eye on the details of the classes and how consistent they remain after launch. Once they have the classes where they'd like them, some consistency will help even more with immersion and will be necessary for players to really get to know their role and decide what they want to do going forward.
I can't, for the life of me, understand why PVPers flock from rpg to rpg. Demanding PVP be a focus, to the one genre of online gaming designed from the bottom up for PVE gameplay. Its the only option for PVE players, and every game has the same group of PVPers show up, plant their flag, and immediately fill whatever parts of the forums they can with:
Demands for nerfs
More PVP content
Ladders
Open world gankfests
and when these are not met, the boards are peppered with declarations of the game's imagined death, doomsaying, and tossing the word "carebear" around as much as possible to HAMSTER off the PVE players before they inevitably rage quit, and move on to the next rpg, to plant their demands/desires.
Coming here solely for the PVP, is like going to SWTOR solely for the space missions. Surely there are better options, for such a focused desire. I'd love to play a mech based co-op PVE game. But you don't see me going to Mechwarrior Online, and demanding PVE.
Suddenly it's ok, to expect PVP in every online game. But if I went to the Battlefield, CoD, or any other online shooter community, and began to demand more roleplaying opportunities, or player housing, or stats, guess how long I'd last before I was eaten alive.
There are virtually no options now, for a purely PVE based game, and yet we're singled out as selfish for wanting a few.
Why would anyone come to a game, that they know is PVE based, solely for PVP? There are tons of PVP based mmorpgs, and very few PVE exclusive ones anymore. And even if there weren't, RPGs are the only game in town for us.
If you want PVP, you have several GENRES of games out there for you. "Selfish" is wanting everything else.
There are dozens, hundreds of games out there designed for PvE. Skyrim and other games like it are a perfect example off the top of my head.
The assumption that a game can't have PvP for players to truly enjoy PvE is ridiculous. The assumption that PvPers are some plague minority that go from game to game making demands that devs buckle to is even more ridiculous.
The MMORPG genre has come to the firm decision that PvP is an standard feature, as evidence by its prevalence. The fact that you don't want it does not reflect the feelings of the genre, or even a majority portion. Just you.
Look at this particular line:
"There are tons of PVP based mmorpgs, and very few PVE exclusive ones anymore."
Note the difference in the bold words?
You call PvP fans selfish for wanting to be included in a genre, and your motivation is that you want a genre all to yourself. That's called hypocrisy.
Guys, gals. There's an easy pen and paper answer to this: make characters HARDCORE. See how many people are willing to toss their character into the PvP ring when they lose it permanently when they die. Competitive? Check. Catering to PvPers? Check. Following the rules of D&D? Check.
That being said, I see PvP as another event, same as the Foundry event, the Profession event, the Dungeon event. Gives people more content to play. Also, it lets you gauge the build of your character and see where you can improve. Plus, playin against thinking humans vs AI is always more engaging. PvE is fun in it's own right. But 2 guys plucking arrows at you while 2 more swat at you while standing still isn't as immersive as wondering where that....rogue....went.....? *stab*
Sure and let's do it for PVE too. Oh wait, there would be too much crying then.
The Best PvP in NWN PW's I ever participated in, had a designated Arena designed just for that purpose. You have a RL beef against a player, or a league? Call 'em out en masse to the Arena, call all your friends, have 'em place bets, make it a sporting event.
We'd all strip down to the bare essentials, hand-to-hand, no buffs, no armor, fight or die. Winner take all. That's My kind of PvP.
Not sure what all the fuss is about, since I don't see an arrangement for PvP in NWO as of yet.
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domepiece1060Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited April 2013
Quit crying, its just that us PVP'ers are excited for an action-MMO.
I can appreciate your point of view and I think it is one that a lot of people share. But the fact that cleric's self healing got nerfed because of the class having too many potions just doesn't add up to me and I don't buy it. Potions drop at such a high rate currently that it is irrelevant. My GWF had over 100 potions without buying a single one at the end of BW4 and I have talked to others that had a similar experience. The fact that maybe the cleric had more gold than other classes because of this is a minor issue, almost irrelevant as well. Unless I missed something, gold is relatively worthless in this game and is only used to buy a standard mount (2 gold and change) and a few other insignificant items. .
You did miss something. The devs were asked about clerics' self heals and threat generation and said specifically that cleric heal was nerfed because they never had to use a potion. Also they said that clerics were generating too much threat and that would be fixed.
In fact the only class that has been nerfed due to pvp is the CW, and the devs did a very smart thing there by just reducing cc duration on pvp- the way the CW plays in pve was balanced for pve (its control effects were slightly enhanced).
For a pve centric game NW has amazing pvp and very balanced classes; kudos to the devs imo.
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noxlegionMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited April 2013
Let's start off by saying I was not too long ago on only PvE servers in MMOs. I thought being in PVP would take away from my quality game time, I thought about it only in a 2d mind-set: Myself and the Environment. I only wanted to deal with pvp on my terms, to sum it up in one phrase: I wanted to be in control the whole time, that was basically my pve mind-set.
One day i switch over to a new MMO and on a whim went into a pvp server. I was scared the moment i left the island(safe zone)my rubber necking was giving me whiplash, because i was looking over my shoulder ever few minutes. Then it finally happened, i was out in a middle of a field in combat and i saw a PKer coming my way! My heart exploded out of my chest, omgomg what do I do? Well i did what every carebear in his/her first pvp match would do! I squealed like a little chipmunk, flaying my arms around, trying to remember what button was to attack and trying not to drop a load right then and there! Sad to say i lost that day, but laying there in the grass getting tea-bagged for the very first unpleasant time i realized something.
For the first time playing a MMO i was not in control. I was exposed to an element of the game I never considered. You talk about a rush! I experienced the 3rd dimension of the game.
Now to finally answer your question:What's with all the PvP lust? To put oneself in an uncontrollable place, whether thats an arena, pvp server, or a duel...and master it... That to me makes me the one-eyed king in the land of the blind....
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kina1991Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
i never could really understand why not just design game skills to do diffrent dmg in pvp and in pve? Would easily fix all this biased pvp haters that think pvp should be removed lol.
Personaly i play pve, and its extra fun in this game(havnt even checked out foundry content yet!) and pvp for just lulz/premade. Tho would love if they made ranked arenas/battlematches as well :O
The assumption that PvPers are some plague minority that go from game to game making demands that devs buckle to is even more ridiculous, and almost racist.
Once you relate a video game argument to racism, your rights to talk about who is and isn't being ridiculous are hereby revoked. It's like some tangential clause of godwin's law or something
To clarify the poster's (poorly stated) point: There's not much co-op rpg that you can do anymore, its all about pvp, and pvp balance has an adverse effect on a team role-based game, namely, class homogenization.
You did not address that there's not a whole lot of specifically online rpgs out there that don't have some giant slice of the pie dedicated to pvp. Guild wars 2 wouldn't shut up about how its endgame is all pvp and world v world v world v world v world v world v world ad nausea, but when's the last time you heard "Our game is very centered on pve" followed by non-stop talk about gear gating?
Being a huge D&D fan for 23 years it kind of makes me mad with people who dont really know what D&D is about. Its D&D, if there wasn't D&D i doubt RPG MMO's would exist. D&D is about exploring and questing, just because it has MMO in game type doesnt meant it has to mirror others and has to have PvP. I wonder how many people actually played D&D, especially crappy 4th edition? Anyhow, just think of PvP as a bonus rather than a main feature in Forgotten Realms, so much history and lore in this campaign setting, sit back and enjoy what has been played for 39 years without graphics and visuals.
Being a huge D&D fan for 23 years it kind of makes me mad with people who dont really know what D&D is about. Its D&D, if there wasn't D&D i doubt RPG MMO's would exist. D&D is about exploring and questing, just because it has MMO in game type doesnt meant it has to mirror others and has to have PvP. I wonder how many people actually played D&D, especially crappy 4th edition? Anyhow, just think of PvP as a bonus rather than a main feature in Forgotten Realms, so much history and lore in this campaign setting, sit back and enjoy what has been played for 39 years without graphics and visuals.
And nothing in those years says DnD does not or is not anything about PvP. That was just the way the people you played with chose to play it. My group and the groups we played with chose not to just be PvE carebears and had PvP in our campaigns. Good vs Evil campaigns were always our most fun campaigns.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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tyler23434Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Pve content gets boring fast once you figure out the rotations and preprogrammed fights. Pvp offers a new and exciting gameplay because its harder to predict and requires more focus. Dnd based games pve gameplay becomes so repetitive that people can preprogram bots to run thru stuff. That's why I prefer pvp over pve content
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turkman84Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited April 2013
I think many people want to pvp in this game because of the action based combat system. I'm a big fan of both PVP and such combat systems, so I thought I'd try out this game (Also, I'm planning on playing around with this foundry editor and bring my own stories to life).
As to why people would seek PvP in a DnD game: I guess, if you assume that all the players are here because of the DnD IP you are very mistaken. I know many here on the forums are, but I assume come release there will be a large host of players that are just looking for a new MMO in a fantasy setting. And a large amount of these people probably won't have touched DnD PnP ever before. They're just here because it's an MMO and they couldn't care less whether it was DnD, Lord of the Rings or whatever IP. I think, I'm not getting out on a limb when I say that those players that are here just because they are fans of DnD will be in the minority soon.
I must admit that I'm new to the whole DnD franchise and don't know too much about the lore (Have read a couple of Drizzt novels, but that's about it). It's not really the most popular RP-franchise where I live (Most of us played DSA if anybody knows that).
I know a lot of people that are just grazing the market for the next best MMO to come out to try it out and I guess that's a large market that they don't want to miss out on. Therefore, I think to assume that an MMO wouldn't have PvP just because it's in a DnD setting and there has never been PVP in DnD before is a bit naive. People expect MMOs to have PvP nowadays. I have played ~10 or so up to now and all of them had some sort of PVP. It's just the standard today. Now, that doesn't mean that an MMO should or must have PVP to succeed. But it's definitely the standard. And especially with such an action based combat system this game is destined to be played against other players too.
edit: I must also say that I can't really understand how some people can't understand what makes PVP interesting in an MMO. Some seem to think that people who like PVP should play BF or CoD. I must wonder if these people have played said games. Because that's a very different genre. PvPers are not here for PvPs sake per se. they are playing PVP in an MMO because they want to play PVP in an MMO and not snipe someones head from half a mile away. These two franchises are very, very different. And while I play both, I play them for a different reason.
To me PVP is certainly not the focus of my gameplay in this particular game. But I surely will hop in a skirmish every once in a while because PvP is just fun and thrilling and challenging. PVE is fine and I like lore and story heavy PVE (same reason I loved to PVE in SW:ToR) but when it comes to challenge or excitement there is only so much that PVE can offer.
You did miss something. The devs were asked about clerics' self heals and threat generation and said specifically that cleric heal was nerfed because they never had to use a potion. Also they said that clerics were generating too much threat and that would be fixed.
In fact the only class that has been nerfed due to pvp is the CW, and the devs did a very smart thing there by just reducing cc duration on pvp- the way the CW plays in pve was balanced for pve (its control effects were slightly enhanced).
For a pve centric game NW has amazing pvp and very balanced classes; kudos to the devs imo.
Yeah that's totally fine, I agree that a cleric shouldn't have to play without ever having to use a pot. But to have them go from having to use none to being the class that has to use the most is a little ridiculous. I think they can find a better middle ground with it. A cleric shouldn't be able to heal party members for a certain amount, and then not be able to heal themselves for the same amount...it just doesn't make sense to me. I understand the devs desire to make combat a little more uncomfortable for clerics and not give them an easy go of it, but when you can't heal yourself for as much as you can heal a party member, and you do the least amount of dps in the game, you inevitably will end up running around in a circle chugging pots most of the time during the bigger fights....why play a cleric if that's the case? Again, I understand where they're coming from with this but I just think they can find more of a middle ground from where it was BW1 to BW4.
And nothing in those years says DnD does not or is not anything about PvP. That was just the way the people you played with chose to play it. My group and the groups we played with chose not to just be PvE carebears and had PvP in our campaigns. Good vs Evil campaigns were always our most fun campaigns.
That's awesome and I honestly don't care if that's how you prefer to play, it doesn't bother me and you're entitled to that. But just realize that you're in the vast minority when it comes to that and don't act like we're infringing on your play style or your worldview or something because you're in a minority. Of course there is no fine print on the DnD box that says, "absolutely no PvP, you're not allowed to even play it because it's not part of the game." But at the same time, you have to realize that the large, large majority of people don't consider it to be worthwhile to their DnD experience.
Pve content gets boring fast once you figure out the rotations and preprogrammed fights. Pvp offers a new and exciting gameplay because its harder to predict and requires more focus. Dnd based games pve gameplay becomes so repetitive that people can preprogram bots to run thru stuff. That's why I prefer pvp over pve content
that's great.
My question to you is then: Why are you choosing to play a dungeons and dragons game, knowing full well the ruleset was not ever intended to balance for player v. player?
@ turkman, DnD is more than IP, it's a system. A system that has never been balanced for player v. player combat, as it was written as a cooperative game. Some players do pvp in dnd, and it pretty much equates to "the guy with magic spells wins, full stop." I don't care what your crit rating is, when the druid turns into a dragon or the wizard casts wail of the banshee, mortal skill with a blade just doesn't matter anymore.
For this reason, i'm saying that a DnD game may not be for pvp-focused players.
While 4e is certainly more friendly to this type of play than earlier editions, im pretty sure because it was written for sitting around a table, there will be gross pvp imbalances, even when translated into an mmo and undergoing further retooling. hell, even in pve tabletop, there's discussions about how later defender releases (warden, battlemind) are grossly superior to earlier releases (Fighter, Paladin) until a splatbook for fighters or paladins comes out, then it sways in the other direction. Pvp is always more exacting than Pve, so expect this to be worse.
30 years of co-op balance does not an e-sport make.
That's awesome and I honestly don't care if that's how you prefer to play, it doesn't bother me and you're entitled to that. But just realize that you're in the vast minority when it comes to that and don't act like we're infringing on your play style or your worldview or something because you're in a minority. Of course there is no fine print on the DnD box that says, "absolutely no PvP, you're not allowed to even play it because it's not part of the game." But at the same time, you have to realize that the large, large majority of people don't consider it to be worthwhile to their DnD experience.
Again, throwing your opinion as fact. Where is the data backing up your claims of majority and minority? The game same box you are talking about does not say it is PVE either, so you are making more assumptions and stating that as fact. You are inccorect in your assessments. Thank you!
Again, throwing your opinion as fact. Where is the data backing up your claims of majority and minority? The game same box you are talking about does not say it is PVE either, so you are making more assumptions and stating that as fact. You are inccorect in your assessments. Thank you!
the preface of each edition talks about how the game is intended to be played. I believe without exception (can't remember the 1e preface exactly...) it describes buddies playing pretend and working together, not competing for ladder tournaments in pvp.
further evidence: roll up a character on athas reborn, a 3e nwn pw. Defilers (sorcerers) and preservers (wizards) Destroy everything they touch. Pure fighters never stand a chance. The best you can do for a melee character is a monk2/druid38, really, (Dragon form + monk ac bonus),and they have to put on their try hard hats to compete with blasters. this is WITH modifications to the core system by the development/dm team to try to rebalance things for a wider array of character types.
granted, neverwinter is in another edition of dnd, so i'm not sure what imbalances will happen, but i'm pretty confident there will be some very nasty ones. (if i had to guess, GWF will be in the worst shape, GF will dominate melee, and DC will dominate all) it's a side-effect of designing an apple and trying to make it an orange.
My question to you is then: Why are you choosing to play a dungeons and dragons game, knowing full well the ruleset was not ever intended to balance for player v. player?
@ turkman, DnD is more than IP, it's a system. A system that has never been balanced for player v. player combat, as it was written as a cooperative game. Some players do pvp in dnd, and it pretty much equates to "the guy with magic spells wins, full stop." I don't care what your crit rating is, when the druid turns into a dragon or the wizard casts wail of the banshee, mortal skill with a blade just doesn't matter anymore.
For this reason, i'm saying that a DnD game may not be for pvp-focused players.
While 4e is certainly more friendly to this type of play than earlier editions, im pretty sure because it was written for sitting around a table, there will be gross pvp imbalances, even when translated into an mmo and undergoing further retooling. hell, even in pve tabletop, there's discussions about how later defender releases (warden, battlemind) are grossly superior to earlier releases (Fighter, Paladin) until a splatbook for fighters or paladins comes out, then it sways in the other direction. Pvp is always more exacting than Pve, so expect this to be worse.
30 years of co-op balance does not an e-sport make.
You are stating an opinion and not fact. DnD always had PVP in it, just because you chose not to play that way means nothing. Even the novels have PVP in them. Please, do not state your PVE opinion as fact when you are incorrect. The game was written to do what you want, not follow some rules someone else made. In fact is says that in the 1st Edition DMG! So do not tell others how they can or should play the game and that is according to Gary Gygax himself!
the preface of each edition talks about how the game is intended to be played. I believe without exception (can't remember the 1e preface exactly...) it describes buddies playing pretend and working together, not competing for ladder tournaments in pvp.
"Buzzer sound" wrong. I have all my books and not one says this is meant for co-op PVE play. Try again please.
the terms aren't used, but... okay.. i know one example for fact.
Combat chapter, 2nd ed advanced:
The scene described talks about initative and how it works. the dm controls all monsters, the players control a cooperative party.
Combat chapter, 4th:
Multiple scenes, but in every one, dm controlled monsters are putting status effects on cooperatively played PCs.
Combat chapter, 3rd:
Grapple is between a dm controlled monster and a player.
None of the examples i can think of in any books involves a player v. player confrontation....
When describing how to play, the examples always have players working together...
that's not to say one doesn't exist... but, honestly, i'd be surprised if there was 1 example of a pvp confrontation for every 100 examples of a pve confrontation in all books, expanded OGL included.
That said, if you want to play pvp tabletop, have fun (just make sure to make a caster or get destroyed lol) its true that the ultimate goal is to play it your way, but the *design* of the game does not reflect a leinance towards pvp. You have your tanks, you have your wizards, you have your clerics. Their roleplaying skills all reflect different backgrounds and are designed to be complementary.
You need a theif for traps
you need a fighter for his HP
you need a cleric of druid for CLW
you need a wizard for POWAH OVERWHELMING
if we were having this argument over say, WoD, i'd concede to you, that game seems much more balanced for player v. player engagements. Hell, even a HAMSTER normal can take some supernaturals if built properly.
Oh and uh, just to repeat the clarifcation: i have nothing against pvp in this game. have at it.
Just don't go changing things around in the pvm portion of the game to balance pvp. It'll be like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Further, i'd rather pvp reflect the pvm differences. Fireball flinging wizards *should* toast swordsmen. That's how it would work in the real world.
Nuke V. Knife. who wins?
I do find pvp arenas in neverwinter, a city underseige for the last 100 years by various wars/devil invasions/horrible HAMSTER happening/apperances of undead armies lead by an ancient elven evil to be a bit of a stretch.
I just don't buy that the citizens of this city would want bloodsport for a form of entertainment. Seems to me they'd be in shock. :P
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So why is it so bad for someone to suggest the pvp skills being separate from the pve? Sounds like you just really dislike any kind of pvp but are okay with any nerfs to pvp hurting your pve experience. Logic at its finest.
By @Stebss
Short Code: NW-DM900IFHK
Development time and focus shifting away from the game as intended is especially impactful with a monetization system like what cryptic is doing.
However, if they go that route, i wont really raise a stink about it, it just seems to me that well.. if some game does what you want better, why petition to change another game into that game? Why not just.. play the game you like? seems like wasted effort to me.
there is the minor bit about immersion breaking. If suddenly my character's powers behave completley differently, it kind of bugs me. I'd much rather go into pvp and have my guardian get his brains stomped on by wizards than walk in and the game's totally different.
THIS EXACTLY
I keep reading folks saying they see the "POTENTIAL" here. If PVP here is not already awesomesauce with a cookie on top. Dont waste your time in the hope it will some how get better.
Hope is all fine and dandy. But its a fools game when all you have to do is look at how Cryptic has been doing things for YEARS in their other games. Those games had potential too. Just spend a few moments in their PVP forums for examples of how that potential was spent.
Ive played all Cryptics games. I actually enjoy them bunches. But my time with them has left with me my expectations tempered and the ability to ignore promises and potential until something is actually delivered.
Im hoping ill end up wrong. But if you are expecting anything more then PVP to be anything more then it currently is and anything more then tacked on flavor. You are setting yourself up for disappointment.
It doesn't have to be instant in terms of development. Immersion breaking wouldn't be a factor because it wouldn't change the skills appearance, effects, or anything like that, just numbers.
Did it ever occur to you that the reason why I don't play guild wars is because its outdated and void of players because of the release of guild wars 2? Also by that reasoning any one that ever suggests any kind of compromise from any other game, should just go play that game. Your pen and paper dnd can't translate to a video game completely sorry.
By @Stebss
Short Code: NW-DM900IFHK
Demands for nerfs
More PVP content
Ladders
Open world gankfests
and when these are not met, the boards are peppered with declarations of the game's imagined death, doomsaying, and tossing the word "carebear" around as much as possible to HAMSTER off the PVE players before they inevitably rage quit, and move on to the next rpg, to plant their demands/desires.
Coming here solely for the PVP, is like going to SWTOR solely for the space missions. Surely there are better options, for such a focused desire. I'd love to play a mech based co-op PVE game. But you don't see me going to Mechwarrior Online, and demanding PVE.
Suddenly it's ok, to expect PVP in every online game. But if I went to the Battlefield, CoD, or any other online shooter community, and began to demand more roleplaying opportunities, or player housing, or stats, guess how long I'd last before I was eaten alive.
There are virtually no options now, for a purely PVE based game, and yet we're singled out as selfish for wanting a few.
Why would anyone come to a game, that they know is PVE based, solely for PVP? There are tons of PVP based mmorpgs, and very few PVE exclusive ones anymore. And even if there weren't, RPGs are the only game in town for us.
If you want PVP, you have several GENRES of games out there for you. "Selfish" is wanting everything else.
The Dire Crow - Tiefling TR
Alice L'ddell - Human GF
Ludovique - Tiefling DC
--Nom Anor
Even if Pvpers do complain, if this game is as PvE focused as everyone believes it to be than it won't matter since developers won't give them the time of day. If they do change anything regarding PvP they will most definitely take its adverse affects regarding PvE into serious considerations.
Trust the devs more.
By @Stebss
Short Code: NW-DM900IFHK
There are dozens, hundreds of games out there designed for PvE. Skyrim and other games like it are a perfect example off the top of my head.
The assumption that a game can't have PvP for players to truly enjoy PvE is ridiculous. The assumption that PvPers are some plague minority that go from game to game making demands that devs buckle to is even more ridiculous.
The MMORPG genre has come to the firm decision that PvP is an standard feature, as evidence by its prevalence. The fact that you don't want it does not reflect the feelings of the genre, or even a majority portion. Just you.
Look at this particular line:
"There are tons of PVP based mmorpgs, and very few PVE exclusive ones anymore."
Note the difference in the bold words?
You call PvP fans selfish for wanting to be included in a genre, and your motivation is that you want a genre all to yourself. That's called hypocrisy.
Sure and let's do it for PVE too. Oh wait, there would be too much crying then.
We'd all strip down to the bare essentials, hand-to-hand, no buffs, no armor, fight or die. Winner take all. That's My kind of PvP.
Not sure what all the fuss is about, since I don't see an arrangement for PvP in NWO as of yet.
You did miss something. The devs were asked about clerics' self heals and threat generation and said specifically that cleric heal was nerfed because they never had to use a potion. Also they said that clerics were generating too much threat and that would be fixed.
In fact the only class that has been nerfed due to pvp is the CW, and the devs did a very smart thing there by just reducing cc duration on pvp- the way the CW plays in pve was balanced for pve (its control effects were slightly enhanced).
For a pve centric game NW has amazing pvp and very balanced classes; kudos to the devs imo.
One day i switch over to a new MMO and on a whim went into a pvp server. I was scared the moment i left the island(safe zone)my rubber necking was giving me whiplash, because i was looking over my shoulder ever few minutes. Then it finally happened, i was out in a middle of a field in combat and i saw a PKer coming my way! My heart exploded out of my chest, omgomg what do I do? Well i did what every carebear in his/her first pvp match would do! I squealed like a little chipmunk, flaying my arms around, trying to remember what button was to attack and trying not to drop a load right then and there! Sad to say i lost that day, but laying there in the grass getting tea-bagged for the very first unpleasant time i realized something.
For the first time playing a MMO i was not in control. I was exposed to an element of the game I never considered. You talk about a rush! I experienced the 3rd dimension of the game.
Now to finally answer your question:What's with all the PvP lust? To put oneself in an uncontrollable place, whether thats an arena, pvp server, or a duel...and master it... That to me makes me the one-eyed king in the land of the blind....
Personaly i play pve, and its extra fun in this game(havnt even checked out foundry content yet!) and pvp for just lulz/premade. Tho would love if they made ranked arenas/battlematches as well :O
Once you relate a video game argument to racism, your rights to talk about who is and isn't being ridiculous are hereby revoked. It's like some tangential clause of godwin's law or something
To clarify the poster's (poorly stated) point: There's not much co-op rpg that you can do anymore, its all about pvp, and pvp balance has an adverse effect on a team role-based game, namely, class homogenization.
You did not address that there's not a whole lot of specifically online rpgs out there that don't have some giant slice of the pie dedicated to pvp. Guild wars 2 wouldn't shut up about how its endgame is all pvp and world v world v world v world v world v world v world ad nausea, but when's the last time you heard "Our game is very centered on pve" followed by non-stop talk about gear gating?
And nothing in those years says DnD does not or is not anything about PvP. That was just the way the people you played with chose to play it. My group and the groups we played with chose not to just be PvE carebears and had PvP in our campaigns. Good vs Evil campaigns were always our most fun campaigns.
As to why people would seek PvP in a DnD game: I guess, if you assume that all the players are here because of the DnD IP you are very mistaken. I know many here on the forums are, but I assume come release there will be a large host of players that are just looking for a new MMO in a fantasy setting. And a large amount of these people probably won't have touched DnD PnP ever before. They're just here because it's an MMO and they couldn't care less whether it was DnD, Lord of the Rings or whatever IP. I think, I'm not getting out on a limb when I say that those players that are here just because they are fans of DnD will be in the minority soon.
I must admit that I'm new to the whole DnD franchise and don't know too much about the lore (Have read a couple of Drizzt novels, but that's about it). It's not really the most popular RP-franchise where I live (Most of us played DSA if anybody knows that).
I know a lot of people that are just grazing the market for the next best MMO to come out to try it out and I guess that's a large market that they don't want to miss out on. Therefore, I think to assume that an MMO wouldn't have PvP just because it's in a DnD setting and there has never been PVP in DnD before is a bit naive. People expect MMOs to have PvP nowadays. I have played ~10 or so up to now and all of them had some sort of PVP. It's just the standard today. Now, that doesn't mean that an MMO should or must have PVP to succeed. But it's definitely the standard. And especially with such an action based combat system this game is destined to be played against other players too.
edit: I must also say that I can't really understand how some people can't understand what makes PVP interesting in an MMO. Some seem to think that people who like PVP should play BF or CoD. I must wonder if these people have played said games. Because that's a very different genre. PvPers are not here for PvPs sake per se. they are playing PVP in an MMO because they want to play PVP in an MMO and not snipe someones head from half a mile away. These two franchises are very, very different. And while I play both, I play them for a different reason.
To me PVP is certainly not the focus of my gameplay in this particular game. But I surely will hop in a skirmish every once in a while because PvP is just fun and thrilling and challenging. PVE is fine and I like lore and story heavy PVE (same reason I loved to PVE in SW:ToR) but when it comes to challenge or excitement there is only so much that PVE can offer.
that's great.
My question to you is then: Why are you choosing to play a dungeons and dragons game, knowing full well the ruleset was not ever intended to balance for player v. player?
@ turkman, DnD is more than IP, it's a system. A system that has never been balanced for player v. player combat, as it was written as a cooperative game. Some players do pvp in dnd, and it pretty much equates to "the guy with magic spells wins, full stop." I don't care what your crit rating is, when the druid turns into a dragon or the wizard casts wail of the banshee, mortal skill with a blade just doesn't matter anymore.
For this reason, i'm saying that a DnD game may not be for pvp-focused players.
While 4e is certainly more friendly to this type of play than earlier editions, im pretty sure because it was written for sitting around a table, there will be gross pvp imbalances, even when translated into an mmo and undergoing further retooling. hell, even in pve tabletop, there's discussions about how later defender releases (warden, battlemind) are grossly superior to earlier releases (Fighter, Paladin) until a splatbook for fighters or paladins comes out, then it sways in the other direction. Pvp is always more exacting than Pve, so expect this to be worse.
30 years of co-op balance does not an e-sport make.
Again, throwing your opinion as fact. Where is the data backing up your claims of majority and minority? The game same box you are talking about does not say it is PVE either, so you are making more assumptions and stating that as fact. You are inccorect in your assessments. Thank you!
the preface of each edition talks about how the game is intended to be played. I believe without exception (can't remember the 1e preface exactly...) it describes buddies playing pretend and working together, not competing for ladder tournaments in pvp.
further evidence: roll up a character on athas reborn, a 3e nwn pw. Defilers (sorcerers) and preservers (wizards) Destroy everything they touch. Pure fighters never stand a chance. The best you can do for a melee character is a monk2/druid38, really, (Dragon form + monk ac bonus),and they have to put on their try hard hats to compete with blasters. this is WITH modifications to the core system by the development/dm team to try to rebalance things for a wider array of character types.
granted, neverwinter is in another edition of dnd, so i'm not sure what imbalances will happen, but i'm pretty confident there will be some very nasty ones. (if i had to guess, GWF will be in the worst shape, GF will dominate melee, and DC will dominate all) it's a side-effect of designing an apple and trying to make it an orange.
You are stating an opinion and not fact. DnD always had PVP in it, just because you chose not to play that way means nothing. Even the novels have PVP in them. Please, do not state your PVE opinion as fact when you are incorrect. The game was written to do what you want, not follow some rules someone else made. In fact is says that in the 1st Edition DMG! So do not tell others how they can or should play the game and that is according to Gary Gygax himself!
"Buzzer sound" wrong. I have all my books and not one says this is meant for co-op PVE play. Try again please.
Combat chapter, 2nd ed advanced:
The scene described talks about initative and how it works. the dm controls all monsters, the players control a cooperative party.
Combat chapter, 4th:
Multiple scenes, but in every one, dm controlled monsters are putting status effects on cooperatively played PCs.
Combat chapter, 3rd:
Grapple is between a dm controlled monster and a player.
None of the examples i can think of in any books involves a player v. player confrontation....
When describing how to play, the examples always have players working together...
that's not to say one doesn't exist... but, honestly, i'd be surprised if there was 1 example of a pvp confrontation for every 100 examples of a pve confrontation in all books, expanded OGL included.
That said, if you want to play pvp tabletop, have fun (just make sure to make a caster or get destroyed lol) its true that the ultimate goal is to play it your way, but the *design* of the game does not reflect a leinance towards pvp. You have your tanks, you have your wizards, you have your clerics. Their roleplaying skills all reflect different backgrounds and are designed to be complementary.
You need a theif for traps
you need a fighter for his HP
you need a cleric of druid for CLW
you need a wizard for POWAH OVERWHELMING
if we were having this argument over say, WoD, i'd concede to you, that game seems much more balanced for player v. player engagements. Hell, even a HAMSTER normal can take some supernaturals if built properly.
Just don't go changing things around in the pvm portion of the game to balance pvp. It'll be like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Further, i'd rather pvp reflect the pvm differences. Fireball flinging wizards *should* toast swordsmen. That's how it would work in the real world.
Nuke V. Knife. who wins?
I do find pvp arenas in neverwinter, a city underseige for the last 100 years by various wars/devil invasions/horrible HAMSTER happening/apperances of undead armies lead by an ancient elven evil to be a bit of a stretch.
I just don't buy that the citizens of this city would want bloodsport for a form of entertainment. Seems to me they'd be in shock. :P