What's with all the PvP lust?

urnusthebeatpoet

So, this baffles me. And I don't mean to offend anyone, I am honestly looking for serious answers.

If you are one of the people looking forward to PvP in this game, or are mostly planning to play this game for the PvP or feel that PvP is a really big concern when it comes to whether or not you play this game...I have to ask, Why?

There are plenty of PvP-centric MMOs out there. TONS. What makes you so interested in making sure THIS MMO has hardcore, super competitive, extremely well balanced PvP?

More importantly, what about the D&D Forgotten Realms setting makes you think competitive PvP? D&D, to me, has ALWAYS been about cooperation, not competition. I have NEVER played a PnP D&D game where we had PvP. Sure, there were occasions where blows were traded between party members, but it was always extremely rare and always something tied very deeply with the story, not something you just signed up to do ("He guys, there's an arena in the next town, lets stop our adventuring and go beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of each other!").

I get that a lot of you really enjoy PvP. I don't have a problem with PvP being in the game. It just baffles me when I see posts like "GWF is the worst class in the game cause he's bad at PvP." or "Clerics HAVE to have a self-heal nerf or they'll be too powerful in PvP." or other, similar style posts.

IMO, if the game didn't have PvP, it wouldn't suffer one bit. I just don't get the mindset of "PvP rules all." that a lot of people on these forums seem to have, specifically because this is a D&D game, and D&D has always been about non-competitive cooperation.

elyrielle

Because this is being advertised as an MMO and all MMOs have PvP of some sort - and thus draw that crowd.

I'm largely in agreement with you, though. It really has no place in a FR D&D setting.

urnusthebeatpoet

There are plenty of MMOs that don't/didn't have PvP. I think the idea that MMOs must have PvP is like saying FPSes must have Deathmatch. Many popular FPSes have no competitive multiplayer component. Why should all MMOs have to have one?

But really, the issue isn't that the game has PvP. That's fine. Whatever the developers want to put into their game is their business. And honestly, PvP in the game doesn't bother me. I won't play it, but that's my choice. Other's probably will. So I am sure there will be lots of people who benefit from it being there. And that's a good thing.

The issues, or more specifically, the thing that has me baffled, is that self-professed PvP enthusiasts, or Hard-Core PvPers, have sought this game out specifically for it's PvP. That just seems strange to me, considering the setting and base material, and I am honestly interested in knowing why this is occurring. Why did the players who are super into PvP decide this was the game to PvP in? What about it makes them think of PvP/think that it will have superior PvP to other MMOs? Why would they even want it to have said PvP? Those are the things that make me scratch my head in confusion, and those are the things I am hoping some PvP enthusiasts can help me understand.

zingarbage

Clerics and GWF were nerfed due to PvE. Why does pve have to effect my pvp?

smokeygb

I disagree. I think of PvP as a minigame, in scenarios/arenas and the like. Sometimes it's good fun to line up and tangle with an opponent who doesn't act so predictably. Greater variety in maps and objectives would be very welcome.

Open World PvP can be great fun as well, especially when there are large groups of players on both sides. The battle is joined and the momentum shifts and back again.

Griefers can lead to a challenging game of 'hunt the griefer' as players police their own zones.

I'm all for PvP as well as PvE. Two sides of the same coin, in my opinion, and PvP can certainly lend depth and replayability to a game.

kilo418

I Agree. I enjoy my share of PvP, but I have other games that already excel at PvP that I can focus on for that. The PvP here is fun, but so far from the focus of the game, I hardly expect it to ever shine over game designed Purely for PVP.

licourtrix1

zingarbage wrote: »

Clerics and GWF were nerfed due to PvE. Why does pve have to effect my pvp?

It doesn't and shouldn't. Many games implement changes for class balancing in pvp only, which in an mmo is the only real place for it (except obvious abuses). And from a combat mechanics stand point, this game is awesome for pvp, almost the feel of a fps but dnd.

Also, right now end game is really only heroic dungeons and pvp, and from what I've read Guantlegrym (hope I spelled that correctly ) will be pvp oriented.

soulwarrior78

I could care less about pve. Pve is just a means to an end for pvp. GW2 was a bust, boring as heck, WAR and DaoC were good, but too old and hardly enough ppl now, EVE is space and space games are meh, so it's NW while I wait for TESO. Although that 19 minutes video of the beta gameplay that was leaked (they're taking it down everywhere, but there's a copy of it on TPB and no one will ever get anything removed from The Bay, so you can get it there if you wanna watch it) makes me think twice if I wanna go play TESO or not. TESO as it stands right now, looks worst than NW.

The NW dev did give out that interview a few weeks ago talking about the open world dwarf pvp zone for high lvl characters, so I'm looking forward to see that dwarf pvp zone.

kilo418

soulwarrior78 wrote: »

I could care less about pve. Pve is just a means to an end for pvp. GW2 was a bust, boring as heck, WAR and DaoC were good, but too old and hardly enough ppl now, EVE is space and space games are meh, so it's NW while I wait for TESO. Although that 19 minutes video of the beta gameplay that was leaked (they're taking it down everywhere, but there's a copy of it on TPB and no one will ever get anything removed from The Bay, so you can get it there if you wanna watch it) makes me think twice if I wanna go play TESO or not. TESO as it stands right now, looks worst than NW.

The NW dev did give out that interview a few weeks ago talking about the open world dwarf pvp zone for high lvl characters, so I'm looking forward to see that dwarf pvp zone.

If all you want is PvP, why are you listing MMOs? Try some MOBAs, as they focus highly, nearly exclusively, on PVP.

khupa1

soulwarrior78 wrote: »

I could care less about pve. Pve is just a means to an end for pvp. GW2 was a bust, boring as heck, WAR and DaoC were good, but too old and hardly enough ppl now, EVE is space and space games are meh, so it's NW while I wait for TESO. Although that 19 minutes video of the beta gameplay that was leaked (they're taking it down everywhere, but there's a copy of it on TPB and no one will ever get anything removed from The Bay, so you can get it there if you wanna watch it) makes me think twice if I wanna go play TESO or not. TESO as it stands right now, looks worst than NW.

The NW dev did give out that interview a few weeks ago talking about the open world dwarf pvp zone for high lvl characters, so I'm looking forward to see that dwarf pvp zone.

About TESO, that leaked video was old or done on a poor quality video card. Because there was another Video and that one really looked like Skyrim. I wish the video was up.

licourtrix1

khupa1 wrote: »

Truly there is better PvP out there than in NW.

That is true, but the potential here is almost staggering, and it is better to be in at the beginning learning all the changes as they come.

kilo418

licourtrix1 wrote: »

That is true, but the potential here is almost staggering, and it is better to be in at the beginning learning all the changes as they come.

While this is true, people are more baffled by the "PvPers" who are pushing for PvP changes ahead of all else, when even at a glance, it is easy to tell this game is not highly focused on pvp or it's development at this time.

licourtrix1

Well, everyone wants to see changes to the part of the game they like best done first. Maybe the pvp crowd is just more vocal. I like pvp but I would rather see the overall mechanics of the game perfected before specific aspects. Which I'm sure is going to happen anyways.

thunderspanker

It is true that the game is centered on pve, after all, it is Dungeons and Dragons. The implications for pvp are staggering, though. I do not know very many details, but it has been confirmed that being able to make pvp arenas in the foundry will be implemented at some point after launch. Just imagine..

chomag

elyrielle wrote: »

Because this is being advertised as an MMO and all MMOs have PvP of some sort - and thus draw that crowd.

I'm largely in agreement with you, though. It really has no place in a FR D&D setting.

PVP is enjoyed by a lot of people, mostly casually. If an MMO company wouldn't add a decent pvp component, it would shoot itself in the leg.

streamofsolace

kilo418 wrote: »

If all you want is PvP, why are you listing MMOs? Try some MOBAs, as they focus highly, nearly exclusively, on PVP.

You like targeting things, why not play an FPS? I play DotA too, the DotA genre is not the.same as MMOs.

Edit to be less snippy:
PvP requests are generally about trying to archive class balance. PvE isn't worse off because of balance, thought it may change due to class imbalance discovered through PvP. In conjunction with high-end PvE combat logs run through a parser, players can provide more data and suggestions than an internal team could hope to.

licourtrix1

I don't think its accurate to say it has no place in FR DnD. How many fights have occurred throughout all the stories between main characters. Although player made campaigns might not have it, the books do.

thunderspanker

I think people that are not fans of pvp might actually find they have fun with it in Neverwinter. Say your buddy creates a dungeon, and you are allowed to compete for a quest, while beating each other up. On so many levels, this makes it a lot more fun that any pvp I have been in, and i like pvp in a number of games.

zingarbage

People who only play PvE like to complain about PvP because they believe it will effect their game play. From all the changes we has seen so far in NW, the changes have been based on PvE.

So you are still being catered too exclusively, don't go and get all baffled on us.

elyrielle

urnusthebeatpoet wrote: »

There are plenty of MMOs that don't/didn't have PvP.

Can't think of any big ones offhand (and this one is advertising like it wants to be a big one).

thunderspanker

Yea, the DnD crowd has already made a few concessions, to get it to be an MMO. There are soooo many ways pen-n-paper isnt able to be translated to the computer, and so those things that cant be translated are understood. PvP is an integral part of any game these days, but this game, as has been stated, is built around PVE, with some PVP in it. The way that they have done it, though, is pretty awesome, and with the future additions to the game, it will grow only more awesome. When i was fighting in the skirmishes, it felt live.. i was on the edge, working the controls, slinging my toon around in circles, firing on all cylinders, raging ALL OVER.. RAWWWWWWWWR!!!!!

Yes. i liked it. lol

elyrielle

licourtrix1 wrote: »

I don't think its accurate to say it has no place in FR DnD. How many fights have occurred throughout all the stories between main characters. Although player made campaigns might not have it, the books do.

That's fair, were this a factional game with good and evil player characters. This isn't.

urnusthebeatpoet

I think I should make a few things clear.

I enjoy (VERY casual) PvP. I am bad at it, hence I don't play it "hardcore." But that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the occasional bout of PvP.

I do not think this game should not have PvP. I don't care if it does or not, but if the devs want PvP, then the Devs should put PvP in their game.

It doesn't bother me that PvP is included in this game. Nor does it bother me that PvP development takes some time away from PvE development. If PvP wasn't in the game, that'd be bad for the game as a whole, because it would mean less players. Less players is bad.

I do not think the developers have made many/any changes to mechanics solely because of PvP. I think PvP may have influenced some changes, but I highly doubt the sole reason x or y got changed was because PvP. I think they generally know what they are doing when it comes to making video games.

This thread isn't about dicussing the merits of PvP in Neverwinter. It's not about PvE being better than PvP. It's about me not understanding why players who prefer PvP gameplay over PvE gameplay decided to play this game in the first place.

So, if you enjoy PvP a lot, consider yourself a hard-core PvPer, or are someone who will be mostly playing PvP in Neverwinter, what made you want to play PvP in Neverwinter as opposed to other MMOs that have a much stronger/more focused PvP aspect (or just a better supported one, like WoW)?

That's the question.

The reason I ask this question is, to me, D&D is an (almost) exclusively cooperative experience. If I was a hardcore PvPer, I would NOT be looking at a D&D title to get my fill of awesome PvP. I would look elsewhere, because, again, the general idea of D&D is that the players work together. So that's the reason I am confused. Hope that clears things up.

vomk

I enjoy PvP more than PvE and Im really looking forward to this game, why? Because I enjoyed playing it lol, the combat system is great and I have been playing wow since vanilla getting bored of it. I also pvped in Rift, Aion, GW2 and a lot of other mmos, but I want something new.

mathbath

The combat in this game is quick, fluid, and action oriented. Combat like that can make a really great PvP experience that hasn't been available before.

fexhie

I feel like if Cryptic did one thing right in this game it was having so many different content options. The major drawback for most mmo's is that it loses appeal to players when they have done everything 200 million times. By giving a mmo so many different things to do whether all of them appeal to all players or not is a major advantage over a game without those options. Personally I hate mmo's without PVP, granted I will still play the hell out of them, but end game gets old fast if all I ever do is pve.

The one mistake that I see being made already and in most pvp mmo's in general is that classes are being nerfed based on what they can do in pvp. There will always be unbalances in pvp, in fact it is supposed to be this way! If you look at one of the most successful pvp mmo's, DAOC they had ranged classes that could 1 shot mages from a ridiculous distance while stealthed! This ability was somewhat nullified by different things like blade turn(nullifies first non magical attack against target for all group members at a refreshing rate of 12/8/6 seconds based on skill level). While nothing in Neverwinter 1 shots mages, clerics and Control Wizards have so much CC coupled into their ranged damaging skills that outside of 1v1 rogues were easily put out of commision. Granted a well played one could generally prevail over atleast 1 of 2 or 3 attackers before dying, thats what a DPS class should do!

So while I agree that classes should not be changed so that they can all be equal in pvp. I do not think that not having pvp in an mmo is a good idea. While pvp may not matter to some, it may not even matter to a majority, having it in game does make a difference in the long run for keeping subscriptions.

ervonis

PvP in Neverwinter Nights was awesome-fun.

projx

Because the combat is fun and feels somewhat unique in an mmo environment... In fact the action oriented combat is one of the best selling points in the game. Why WOULDN'T this make PVP'ers excited. I don't understand how people can have so little empathy as to understand even simple concepts like this from another's point of view.

vomk

fexhie wrote: »

The one mistake that I see being made already and in most pvp mmo's in general is that classes are being nerfed based on what they can do in pvp.

Where have you read that they nerfed some classes because of PvP?

fexhie

I did not have to read it, it was obvious. Nerfing a rogues burst damage was obviously a pvp issue. Don't have to read it. And if they said otherwise I would not even believe it.

thunderspanker

Every single reason everyone said, +1. It is just that much fun. When you get your hands on the controls, and really start feeling it out, it just feels darn good.

Even when I was slaughtered, it wasnt mad.. it was fun. lol.. I laughed.. EVERYONE KILL THUNDERSPANK