I was never an open world PvP person. Why I never went to a PvP Server, The fiancee and I always enjoy BGs and occasionally try the arenas when the mood strikes us. We really had a blast in Warhammer Online with the PvP fortresses in each zone and the objectives in each area. That really turned out to be a lot of fun and then when we had enough or wanted to get back questing then we just left.
I miss that game. I always felt it had so much potential but the Devs squandered it away until it was too late. if Gauntlgrym is as people are describing it then we will probably give it a try.
What would fit in to D&D setting really well, would be competitive dungeons. Have your good and evil teams run a same instance with different start points, trapping and ambushing each others, to steal the treasure first. Different PvP than usual, and would fit well in setting.
Yeah I am hoping to work on something like that down the track (if the foundry has that capability), I think such a pvp dungeon would be awesome.
So, this baffles me. And I don't mean to offend anyone, I am honestly looking for serious answers.
If you are one of the people looking forward to PvP in this game, or are mostly planning to play this game for the PvP or feel that PvP is a really big concern when it comes to whether or not you play this game...I have to ask, Why?
There are plenty of PvP-centric MMOs out there. TONS. What makes you so interested in making sure THIS MMO has hardcore, super competitive, extremely well balanced PvP?
More importantly, what about the D&D Forgotten Realms setting makes you think competitive PvP? D&D, to me, has ALWAYS been about cooperation, not competition. I have NEVER played a PnP D&D game where we had PvP. Sure, there were occasions where blows were traded between party members, but it was always extremely rare and always something tied very deeply with the story, not something you just signed up to do ("He guys, there's an arena in the next town, lets stop our adventuring and go beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of each other!").
I get that a lot of you really enjoy PvP. I don't have a problem with PvP being in the game. It just baffles me when I see posts like "GWF is the worst class in the game cause he's bad at PvP." or "Clerics HAVE to have a self-heal nerf or they'll be too powerful in PvP." or other, similar style posts.
IMO, if the game didn't have PvP, it wouldn't suffer one bit. I just don't get the mindset of "PvP rules all." that a lot of people on these forums seem to have, specifically because this is a D&D game, and D&D has always been about non-competitive cooperation.
The problem I have with pve is that it gets boring fast. A dungeon might be fun in the beginning, when you are still figuring out what to do, but after a few successful times its just always the same. You are fighting a predictable script. You do not have to adept, you might not even have to think after a few times. Pvp provides you with a real opponent who might exploit your weakness and who will adept to your tactics. It provides a real challenge. If we ever manage to get a real ai pve will become a lot more attractive.
Now why am I in this game? I truly like dnd (and other pnp games as well). Actually I could just as easily claim dnd is pvp. In the end all your enemies are controlled by a real, thinking opponent, the game master. While his goal wont be to destroy your group the enemies won't follow scripts. The enemies won't be so predictable. I can not taunt en enemy in the pnp game, I have to somehow block them from reaching the mage. The enemies will react to my actions, the monsters will adapt. Actually the pnp game delivers all the challenges of pvp. And the group aspect, the coordination of your team, is also present in a pvp game. Teamplay is often much more important in pvp. If everyone in a group knows a dungeon it can often be done without words. In pvp you still want to coordinate your burst dmg, your cc or probably your daily powers.
So, this baffles me. And I don't mean to offend anyone, I am honestly looking for serious answers.
If you are one of the people looking forward to PvP in this game, or are mostly planning to play this game for the PvP or feel that PvP is a really big concern when it comes to whether or not you play this game...I have to ask, Why?
There are plenty of PvP-centric MMOs out there. TONS. What makes you so interested in making sure THIS MMO has hardcore, super competitive, extremely well balanced PvP?
More importantly, what about the D&D Forgotten Realms setting makes you think competitive PvP? D&D, to me, has ALWAYS been about cooperation, not competition. I have NEVER played a PnP D&D game where we had PvP. Sure, there were occasions where blows were traded between party members, but it was always extremely rare and always something tied very deeply with the story, not something you just signed up to do ("He guys, there's an arena in the next town, lets stop our adventuring and go beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of each other!").
I get that a lot of you really enjoy PvP. I don't have a problem with PvP being in the game. It just baffles me when I see posts like "GWF is the worst class in the game cause he's bad at PvP." or "Clerics HAVE to have a self-heal nerf or they'll be too powerful in PvP." or other, similar style posts.
IMO, if the game didn't have PvP, it wouldn't suffer one bit. I just don't get the mindset of "PvP rules all." that a lot of people on these forums seem to have, specifically because this is a D&D game, and D&D has always been about non-competitive cooperation.
Guys, gals. There's an easy pen and paper answer to this: make characters HARDCORE.
Lol! Hardcore is great, but not enough people would play to support the game.
PvP is far superior in my mind, just as multiple other PvPers have said. PvE is boring, especially in its current standard MMO form. Which is beyond sad and pathetic. Kill waves of painfully easy, ignorant mobs just to go out and do it for another 60 hours. A few bits of flavor text don't make for an exciting adventure.
Should the game have PvE? Yes, because I understand that an MMO is both. Cooperation and competition. On both sides of the PvE/PvP coin.
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leissesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I like PvE as much as I like PvP. My friends usually prefer PvP but they like PvE too.
PvE becomes boring for some people after some time, but PvP have others problems too.
MMORPG are games where you can make both and have fun at both, that's how I think of it and how I wish this game is.
Well, I'll try to stop answering the PvP Haters and try to just ask them to stop attacking PvP and build construtive topics. ButI need to admit it's hard to see people attacking things you'd like in game for free and say nothing.
Because the combat is fun and feels somewhat unique in an mmo environment... In fact the action oriented combat is one of the best selling points in the game. Why WOULDN'T this make PVP'ers excited. I don't understand how people can have so little empathy as to understand even simple concepts like this from another's point of view.
To answer you, one must first have another's point of view, most of this thread has been the OP asking for this very thing and getting unrelated answers.
For example......there must be pvp because .....without pvp.........an mmo cant survive without pvp......
You fill in the blanks that was not what he was asking. You did how ever answer what I believe he was asking, so I guess one out of 20 aint bad....who are we kidding that's terrible.
For me, I don't care that much about PvP I'm just casual at it, but in saying that it would have to be 2 things for me. First is foundry with the possibility of custom maps the content is endless. second is the combat system, if you pvp mad you probibly wont be heart broken to be using a system that feels as close to combat as an MMO gets.
For the few that have been saying to name where a class has been nerfed in PvE for the sake of PvP, have you never played WoW? Its a regular event, though in saying that they got a little smarter in the end and have abilities tweek only in PvP. Warriors , Pallies and Rogues all copped it in PvE due to PvP issues. But that last bit is not relevant to the OP so that it from me.
Was a convention once where they basically had two games going on with two DMs, two groups of players etc. Little did the players know they where heading to the middle of the same dungeon looking for the same treasure. When they reached the middle, a divider was removed and a huge battle ensued. Was even cooler that one group was of paladins, the other was all vampires. Was an awesome concept and fits well into youre group competition pvp.
Was a convention once where they basically had two games going on with two DMs, two groups of players etc. Little did the players know they where heading to the middle of the same dungeon looking for the same treasure. When they reached the middle, a divider was removed and a huge battle ensued. Was even cooler that one group was of paladins, the other was all vampires. Was an awesome concept and fits well into youre group competition pvp.
Saved!
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doomstroke99Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 27Arc User
edited April 2013
Message to OP: Well said and right on!
Message to Devs: DON'T ever make a single balancing decision in this game based on PVP complaints. Balance off of PVE gameplay and let the PVP'ers adapt or die (and die and die... hehe). Spend 90% of development time on PVE-based content.
Where have you read that they nerfed some classes because of PvP?
It doesn't take much to make the connection that the cleric and GWF have already been drastically changed because of PvP. I mean, the cleric can barely even heal himself now because "he's too tough to kill in PvP, waahh waahh." Yeah he's a cleric, he should be tough to kill in PvP...you might actually have to send multiple guys to go and kill him rather than take on a cleric solo, go figure. Also, you won't read much if anything about classes being altered because of PvP because it's not something the devs want to readily admit. Just use a little bit of logic and read the incessant whining on PvP forums and you can figure it out for yourself ; )
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leissesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Cleric self healing is a nerf most PvPers don't like.
And please, stop being aggressive at PvPers, we just want the PvP part of the game to be improved so we come to forums to show how we think it can be done and pray to the gods the DEVs give us some attention.
Yeah, and I really appreciate that Cryptic put the PvP in there and bothered to make it fun, because it brings more people to the game (which is great) and keeps people playing (which is also great). I think MMOs only benefit from a larger community, no matter what the individual communities members are doing within the game. Everyone benefits from more people playing. And PvP does bring in more people (like many people have mentioned in this thread). So, in that respect, I am really glad Neverwinter has awesome PvP that is attracting more players.
I think what is often the case is that one side (PvErs or PvPers) feels that their favorite part of the game isn't getting enough love as a direct consequence of the other side getting said love. Sadly, in many many many MMOs, it's actually true. Hopefully Neverwinter won't be like that. But that's up to the Devs. The players themselves are blameless. So there's no reason for one side to be mad at the other. If PvE or PvP isn't getting the attention it deserves, that's the Dev's fault, not the fault of the people who enjoy one side of the game over the other.
Just to be clear, I am in agreement with the OP here. I do not mind PvP actually being in the game and I can see how the NW combat system and the flow of the game would make PvP a lot of fun. I just don't want to see solid PvE classes get run into the ground because of PvP balance. As long as the devs can find a way to satisfy the PvPer's without having to do that then it's all good! I really don't care if it's in the game and hope everyone has fun with it, just don't want it breaking the rest of the game that's all. I think it's a valid concern considering that it's been done unsuccessfully in almost every other MMO ever.
Clerics got the self-heal nerf because they never had to use potions in PvE. GWFs got nerfed because they did too much AoE damage (devs went too far, made them UP in BW4). Even the TR got nerfed because of PvE, being able to fight **** near every battle in perpetual stealth and never take a hit.
***
@OP: I am one of these PvP enthusiasts of which you speak. What you aren't understanding is that we are not "[seeking] this game out specifically for it's PvP" but rather we want to play this game and we want it to have fun PvP. The only way PvP can be fun is if it is balanced.
You're right that PnP D&D has never been about PvP. That doesn't matter though because this is not PnP D&D, but rather an MMO video game in the Forgotten Realms setting. MMO players have come to expect, and rightfully so, that an MMO will have PvP, and any MMO that does not have it is a fundamentally worse game for it. Even if all the time and money that would have been spent on PvP is instead spent fleshing out/polishing the PvE side, it will still be a lesser game because it has less. It's just like a lot of FPSs out there that don't have multiplayer functionality. Can it still be a good game? Yes. Would it have been better if it had multiplayer? Yes.
The reason why I like PvP is because you get to pit yourself against another human being, mind to mind/skill to skill. In PvP you never face the same situation twice because your opponent will never do the exact same thing twice. There are so many variables and human beings are so inherently unpredictable that every fight is unique and dynamic, and thus it never gets boring. PvE on the other hand pits you against a computer that is programmed to think and act a particular way, and it will think and act that particular way every single time.
I love PvE and I intend to play Neverwinter for its PvE. I love the traditional PnP cooperative spirit, delving deep into deadly dungeons with trusted allies at your side taking on fantastic and terrifying foes. The dungeons and skirmishes I've seen so far have been great fun, and the Forge is a brilliant tool to forever add new content for us players to create and enjoy.
At the same time I love PvP, and I would be sorely disappointed if the devs dropped the ball on this portion of the gameplay because PnP D&D doesn't have it.
Clerics got the self-heal nerf because they never had to use potions in PvE. GWFs got nerfed because they did too much AoE damage (devs went too far, made them UP in BW4). Even the TR got nerfed because of PvE, being able to fight **** near every battle in perpetual stealth and never take a hit.
***
@OP: I am one of these PvP enthusiasts of which you speak. What you aren't understanding is that we are not "[seeking] this game out specifically for it's PvP" but rather we want to play this game and we want it to have fun PvP. The only way PvP can be fun is if it is balanced.
You're right that PnP D&D has never been about PvP. That doesn't matter though because this is not PnP D&D, but rather an MMO video game in the Forgotten Realms setting. MMO players have come to expect, and rightfully so, that an MMO will have PvP, and any MMO that does not have it is a fundamentally worse game for it. Even if all the time and money that would have been spent on PvP is instead spent fleshing out/polishing the PvE side, it will still be a lesser game because it has less. It's just like a lot of FPSs out there that don't have multiplayer functionality. Can it still be a good game? Yes. Would it have been better if it had multiplayer? Yes.
The reason why I like PvP is because you get to pit yourself against another human being, mind to mind/skill to skill. In PvP you never face the same situation twice because your opponent will never do the exact same thing twice. There are so many variables and human beings are so inherently unpredictable that every fight is unique and dynamic, and thus it never gets boring. PvE on the other hand pits you against a computer that is programmed to think and act a particular way, and it will think and act that particular way every single time.
I love PvE and I intend to play Neverwinter for its PvE. I love the traditional PnP cooperative spirit, delving deep into deadly dungeons with trusted allies at your side taking on fantastic and terrifying foes. The dungeons and skirmishes I've seen so far have been great fun, and the Forge is a brilliant tool to forever add new content for us players to create and enjoy.
At the same time I love PvP, and I would be sorely disappointed if the devs dropped the ball on this portion of the gameplay because PnP D&D doesn't have it.
I can appreciate your point of view and I think it is one that a lot of people share. But the fact that cleric's self healing got nerfed because of the class having too many potions just doesn't add up to me and I don't buy it. Potions drop at such a high rate currently that it is irrelevant. My GWF had over 100 potions without buying a single one at the end of BW4 and I have talked to others that had a similar experience. The fact that maybe the cleric had more gold than other classes because of this is a minor issue, almost irrelevant as well. Unless I missed something, gold is relatively worthless in this game and is only used to buy a standard mount (2 gold and change) and a few other insignificant items. The problem that comes up with PvP and PvE balance when you're in a DnD setting is that DnD classes were never meant to be balanced...the two do not mesh and that is what makes it so difficult. Every class has something in their skill set that makes them "unbalanced" or "unfair" when it comes to PvP. There is always something to complain about, whether it be "oh the control wizard has too much control..the cleric has too much healing...the rogue does too much single target dps...the GWF does too much AoE damage." That's what their class DOES haha. When you play a class in DnD you are playing a specific role and your character has a specific set of skills that make them powerful and valuable... in PvP what each class does best inevitably leads to people shouting "overpowered" and "unbalanced" from the rooftops until the thing each class does best is reduced and every class ends up being almost indistinguishable. That is the problem that I see pop up over and over again when you try to incorporate PvP into classic DnD roles, but if the Devs can find a way to do it right then more power to them.
I believe that this game has gameplay mechanics that are good for both PvE and PvP. I play both and am looking forward to both. The Foundry has opened up some real possibilities. I know that there will always be times when PvP has a negative affect on PvE and vice versa. It is inevitable in games that have both unless they completely separate the 2 and that leads to other issues. This is a great game. I don't see the need to have a reason to want to PvP or PvE other than I enjoy it.
@andrylar10: Ok so there are 2 key points in your post that I can see:
1. Clerics having more potions and thus not spending gold is meaningless
2. D&D classes can't be balanced for PvP
My response:
1. It isn't about the gold. Everyone says that, "What does it matter if Clerics have more gold? Gold is useless!" But the problem is not the gold. It's the fact that Potions are supposed to be an integral part of every class's survival. There is no burst healing in Neverwinter other than Potions, and for all classes except Cleric there is no other means to heal between fights. Reducing Clerics' self-healing wasn't intended to make Clerics burn more gold buying Potions (I never did in BW3 or 4) but rather to make them actually need to use Potions ever. Cleric self-healing was OP before the nerf.
2. Again I must state that this is not PnP D&D. How the devs design their classes in the Neverwinter MMO is completely independent of the PnP mechanics. Therefore balance is absolutely attainable, even if it isn't in PnP D&D. And you're right when you say "That's what their class DOES" in response to people saying "TR's do too much damage"/"Clerics do too much healing" etc. However, TRs can do too much damage. If a TR can Lashing Blade from stealth for 12k at level 1 (arbitrary number) and a GF can only pump out 120 damage (again arbitrary) on his most damaging power, the TR is OP. Yes, the GF is a tank and not designed to do a lot of damage, but the difference has to stay within reason.
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xantrisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I wouldn't worry too much about it. Cryptic does not do PvP well, and they are generally for more hesitant than most companies to nerf a class based on PvP while knowing it will <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of the PvEers. Naturally that leads to grossly imbalanced classes and mechanics.
The PvPers will flock to another game soon enough.
i'm all for pvp options, but it should never be taken into account for balancing purposes. the rules for dnd just don't jive with pvp, and the only way to make them jive with it is turn this into wow. No thanks.
have your arenas and all that, but don't fuss at dev's to nerf wizards. In dnd pvp = the wizard wins.
The very first time they change a class for PvP, I will uninstall and never look back. PvP has a very vocal minority I will not tolerate. Life is too short for that for a FTP game.
Why don't they just do what the first Guild Wars did and make it so PvE skills are seperate from PvP? I honestly don't know why more developers don't do that it. It only makes everyone happy.
If there was a skill op in pvp and they couldn't find a good way to balance it without making it underwhelming in pve also they would just make a second version of it specifically for PvP.
Why don't they just do what the first Guild Wars did and make it so PvE skills are seperate from PvP? I honestly don't know why more developers don't do that it. It only makes everyone happy.
If there was a skill op in pvp and they couldn't find a good way to balance it without making it underwhelming in pve also they would just make a second version of it specifically for PvP.
I hate to sound like a jerk, old chap, but why not just go play Guild wars? DnD is a pve focused enviornment. that's how it's been since the 70s.
Instead of trying to change something you don't like, why not go do what you do like?
Because I've been playing D&D myself since the 70s, old chap, and I'm quite interested to see how these iconic classes handle competition with another player.
Because I've been playing D&D myself since the 70s, old chap, and I'm quite interested to see how these iconic classes handle competition with another player.
well i dont know how 4e goes, but if it's anything like the last 30 years...
Wizard wins. With the right build you might draw your sword before he wail of the banshee's your face into dirt.
To clarify: i don't mind pvp being in the game. I mind changing the game for the sake of pvp. "nerf wizard" coming to a forum near you. If The developers ignore this, then good.
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daviaugusto1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
From whar I read on this post, I see way more PvErs angry at PvP than the other way around. I like to PvP, and I know there will never be perfect balance, it just has to have SOME balance, as does PvE. It is very likely that a OP class for PvP is also OP for PvE.
From whar I read on this post, I see way more PvErs angry at PvP than the other way around.
Quoted for emphasis.
The game is, as of my post here, in it's first day of Open Beta head start. Cryptic hasn't nerfed anything from PvP, has shown no signs that they will. Why are we getting up in arms about this?
The notion of classes being nerfed because of PvP is an old horse. I'm confident that Cryptic is well aware of it.
Comments
I miss that game.
Yeah I am hoping to work on something like that down the track (if the foundry has that capability), I think such a pvp dungeon would be awesome.
The problem I have with pve is that it gets boring fast. A dungeon might be fun in the beginning, when you are still figuring out what to do, but after a few successful times its just always the same. You are fighting a predictable script. You do not have to adept, you might not even have to think after a few times. Pvp provides you with a real opponent who might exploit your weakness and who will adept to your tactics. It provides a real challenge. If we ever manage to get a real ai pve will become a lot more attractive.
Now why am I in this game? I truly like dnd (and other pnp games as well). Actually I could just as easily claim dnd is pvp. In the end all your enemies are controlled by a real, thinking opponent, the game master. While his goal wont be to destroy your group the enemies won't follow scripts. The enemies won't be so predictable. I can not taunt en enemy in the pnp game, I have to somehow block them from reaching the mage. The enemies will react to my actions, the monsters will adapt. Actually the pnp game delivers all the challenges of pvp. And the group aspect, the coordination of your team, is also present in a pvp game. Teamplay is often much more important in pvp. If everyone in a group knows a dungeon it can often be done without words. In pvp you still want to coordinate your burst dmg, your cc or probably your daily powers.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
Neverwinter's action combat gameplay. Kbye
Lol! Hardcore is great, but not enough people would play to support the game.
PvP is far superior in my mind, just as multiple other PvPers have said. PvE is boring, especially in its current standard MMO form. Which is beyond sad and pathetic. Kill waves of painfully easy, ignorant mobs just to go out and do it for another 60 hours. A few bits of flavor text don't make for an exciting adventure.
Should the game have PvE? Yes, because I understand that an MMO is both. Cooperation and competition. On both sides of the PvE/PvP coin.
PvE becomes boring for some people after some time, but PvP have others problems too.
MMORPG are games where you can make both and have fun at both, that's how I think of it and how I wish this game is.
Well, I'll try to stop answering the PvP Haters and try to just ask them to stop attacking PvP and build construtive topics. ButI need to admit it's hard to see people attacking things you'd like in game for free and say nothing.
PSO2. Dunno when it's coming to NA, but very popular in Japan.
To answer you, one must first have another's point of view, most of this thread has been the OP asking for this very thing and getting unrelated answers.
For example......there must be pvp because .....without pvp.........an mmo cant survive without pvp......
You fill in the blanks that was not what he was asking. You did how ever answer what I believe he was asking, so I guess one out of 20 aint bad....who are we kidding that's terrible.
For me, I don't care that much about PvP I'm just casual at it, but in saying that it would have to be 2 things for me. First is foundry with the possibility of custom maps the content is endless. second is the combat system, if you pvp mad you probibly wont be heart broken to be using a system that feels as close to combat as an MMO gets.
For the few that have been saying to name where a class has been nerfed in PvE for the sake of PvP, have you never played WoW? Its a regular event, though in saying that they got a little smarter in the end and have abilities tweek only in PvP. Warriors , Pallies and Rogues all copped it in PvE due to PvP issues. But that last bit is not relevant to the OP so that it from me.
I misread nothing and you assume much.
Troll elsewhere.
Message to Devs: DON'T ever make a single balancing decision in this game based on PVP complaints. Balance off of PVE gameplay and let the PVP'ers adapt or die (and die and die... hehe). Spend 90% of development time on PVE-based content.
And please, stop being aggressive at PvPers, we just want the PvP part of the game to be improved so we come to forums to show how we think it can be done and pray to the gods the DEVs give us some attention.
ya reelee
Clerics got the self-heal nerf because they never had to use potions in PvE. GWFs got nerfed because they did too much AoE damage (devs went too far, made them UP in BW4). Even the TR got nerfed because of PvE, being able to fight **** near every battle in perpetual stealth and never take a hit.
***
@OP: I am one of these PvP enthusiasts of which you speak. What you aren't understanding is that we are not "[seeking] this game out specifically for it's PvP" but rather we want to play this game and we want it to have fun PvP. The only way PvP can be fun is if it is balanced.
You're right that PnP D&D has never been about PvP. That doesn't matter though because this is not PnP D&D, but rather an MMO video game in the Forgotten Realms setting. MMO players have come to expect, and rightfully so, that an MMO will have PvP, and any MMO that does not have it is a fundamentally worse game for it. Even if all the time and money that would have been spent on PvP is instead spent fleshing out/polishing the PvE side, it will still be a lesser game because it has less. It's just like a lot of FPSs out there that don't have multiplayer functionality. Can it still be a good game? Yes. Would it have been better if it had multiplayer? Yes.
The reason why I like PvP is because you get to pit yourself against another human being, mind to mind/skill to skill. In PvP you never face the same situation twice because your opponent will never do the exact same thing twice. There are so many variables and human beings are so inherently unpredictable that every fight is unique and dynamic, and thus it never gets boring. PvE on the other hand pits you against a computer that is programmed to think and act a particular way, and it will think and act that particular way every single time.
I love PvE and I intend to play Neverwinter for its PvE. I love the traditional PnP cooperative spirit, delving deep into deadly dungeons with trusted allies at your side taking on fantastic and terrifying foes. The dungeons and skirmishes I've seen so far have been great fun, and the Forge is a brilliant tool to forever add new content for us players to create and enjoy.
At the same time I love PvP, and I would be sorely disappointed if the devs dropped the ball on this portion of the gameplay because PnP D&D doesn't have it.
1. Clerics having more potions and thus not spending gold is meaningless
2. D&D classes can't be balanced for PvP
My response:
1. It isn't about the gold. Everyone says that, "What does it matter if Clerics have more gold? Gold is useless!" But the problem is not the gold. It's the fact that Potions are supposed to be an integral part of every class's survival. There is no burst healing in Neverwinter other than Potions, and for all classes except Cleric there is no other means to heal between fights. Reducing Clerics' self-healing wasn't intended to make Clerics burn more gold buying Potions (I never did in BW3 or 4) but rather to make them actually need to use Potions ever. Cleric self-healing was OP before the nerf.
2. Again I must state that this is not PnP D&D. How the devs design their classes in the Neverwinter MMO is completely independent of the PnP mechanics. Therefore balance is absolutely attainable, even if it isn't in PnP D&D. And you're right when you say "That's what their class DOES" in response to people saying "TR's do too much damage"/"Clerics do too much healing" etc. However, TRs can do too much damage. If a TR can Lashing Blade from stealth for 12k at level 1 (arbitrary number) and a GF can only pump out 120 damage (again arbitrary) on his most damaging power, the TR is OP. Yes, the GF is a tank and not designed to do a lot of damage, but the difference has to stay within reason.
The PvPers will flock to another game soon enough.
have your arenas and all that, but don't fuss at dev's to nerf wizards. In dnd pvp = the wizard wins.
If there was a skill op in pvp and they couldn't find a good way to balance it without making it underwhelming in pve also they would just make a second version of it specifically for PvP.
By @Stebss
Short Code: NW-DM900IFHK
I hate to sound like a jerk, old chap, but why not just go play Guild wars? DnD is a pve focused enviornment. that's how it's been since the 70s.
Instead of trying to change something you don't like, why not go do what you do like?
And yet your precious PvE environment still has PvP that will overall affect your PvE.
It's a compromise, a suggestion, what have you. I am not trying to change anything, I'm not a developer.
By @Stebss
Short Code: NW-DM900IFHK
well i dont know how 4e goes, but if it's anything like the last 30 years...
Wizard wins. With the right build you might draw your sword before he wail of the banshee's your face into dirt.
To clarify: i don't mind pvp being in the game. I mind changing the game for the sake of pvp. "nerf wizard" coming to a forum near you. If The developers ignore this, then good.
Quoted for emphasis.
The game is, as of my post here, in it's first day of Open Beta head start. Cryptic hasn't nerfed anything from PvP, has shown no signs that they will. Why are we getting up in arms about this?
The notion of classes being nerfed because of PvP is an old horse. I'm confident that Cryptic is well aware of it.