I'm glad someone posted that. I was really hoping that PVP wouldn't even be in this game. We'd see a heck of a lot less "nerf this class because" stuff. Hopefully the devs will keep all the new nerfs for the "special people" pvp stuff out of the PVE side of gaming.
I did not have to read it, it was obvious. Nerfing a rogues burst damage was obviously a pvp issue. Don't have to read it. And if they said otherwise I would not even believe it.
I think that even if there was no pvp the rogues would of gotten a nerf.
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fexhieMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
I think that even if there was no pvp the rogues would of gotten a nerf.
While they may of gotten a nerf, I highly doubt it would of been changed to the extent it was, they pretty much removed all out of stealth bonus damage from the class.
While Rogues did do some superlative pve damage, they are the only dps class currently in the game. And it is much easier to for most players to overlook what one class is doing in pve especially when they are the only dps class, but it is much harder for them to overlook it when they are getting it shoved up their corpses in pvp. Great Fighters I think, were primarily nerfed for pve reasons, however I do not think this was the case for rogues.
Others have said it, but I will repeat it. I love PvP, I also really enjoy PvE to a certain extent. Neverwinters combat makes both of these game play options very engaging.
That's exactly what PvP is, a game play "Option" No one is forcing you to participate if you don't want to. It isn't going to effect the way you PvE as I firmly believe they won't nerf a class in to oblivion based on PvP results.
Saying PnP D&D doesn't have PvP in it is kind of ridiculous. Anything is possible in PnP D&D. I have fought against party members in PnP before as I believe others have as well.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
I think from a developer stand point you kind of have to some kind of PvP element included to capture the playerbase, who enjoy that be it hardcore or casual. Why some players seek out PvP in Neverwinter is probably a matter of game mechanics being interesting and quite different from other MMOs.
In my experience the main "problem" with having both pvp and pve in a the same game is balancing the classes. Too often some classes start out fine for PvE, are then suddenly considered OP for PvP and nerfed meaning they suddenly get underpowered for PvE, leading to the developer needing to nerf the other classes in PvE. You see the vicious circle here :-)
Only game I have heard of implementing this in a good way was Guild Wars (not GW2, but the first one). Here you had access to the same skills in PvE and PvP, but damage, heals, effects etc. were all Unique whether you used the skill within PvE or PvP, so e.g. a fireball could give 100 damage in PvE, but only 90 in PvP and not give splash damage (imaginary example here). To me this is a great way of combining PvE and PvP into the same game as it becomes possible to balance classes around the playstyle it is used in. Granted the negative thing it does is eliminate the possibility for PvP servers, where two players in PvE can start attacking each other on a whim during questing. A small Price in my opinion, though I do know others like the old PvP servers in e.g. WoW (ah, ganking in Stranglethorn Vale how I hated you and yet still loved you :-) )
While they may of gotten a nerf, I highly doubt it would of been changed to the extent it was, they pretty much removed all out of stealth bonus damage from the class.
While Rogues did do some superlative pve damage, they are the only dps class currently in the game. And it is much easier to for most players to overlook what one class is doing in pve especially when they are the only dps class, but it is much harder for them to overlook it when they are getting it shoved up their corpses in pvp. Great Fighters I think, were primarily nerfed for pve reasons, however I do not think this was the case for rogues.
You THINK, enough said..
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urnusthebeatpoetMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 62Arc User
edited April 2013
I get that PvP is ALLOWED in D&D. But D&D is not about PvP at all. Yes, you can pvp, just like you can sit around and trade hats in TF2 or kill your team mates in Counter Strike. You CAN do it. It's not what you're supposed to do, however. It's not what the game was designed for. D&D was designed for cooperative play. It was designed for people to work together, not work against, each other.
That being said, I, again, have no problem with PvP being in this game. I played a small amount in Beta Weekend 4, it was good times. I won't play much of it come launch, but I am glad it is there for the people who want it.
I also really appreciate the people who have taken the time to actually answer my question (the overwhelming result of which seems to be that the action-oriented gameplay makes the PvP in Neverwinter very different from PvP in other MMOs, and people like that difference). So thanks!
For the most part, Guilds, pvp, end game content, all really don't make sense in DnD. However, I am talking about traditional pen and paper.
Sure you could finish a story arch, going after the main bad guy, but when it was dead, it didn't come back.
I think you should learn to embrace the changes they have made, to make this part of the game, because it helps the development of the game that much more.
Let me give you an example of some background of why.
PVP Creates an Edge
In this example, you will have one guild at war with another, for different reasons. These reasons create atmosphere for the playerbase, that is fun at times and frustrating at others. Now open up the ability of players to create content in the game, that can involve pvp. A story is created that brings these waring factions together, in a way that is dramatical increased based on the players dislike for one another.
For that matter, it brings me back to the EQ days, while it wont totally be simulated here, there was a certain edge, to actually being weary of the areas you went to, because there was always the threat of what you could not see. You do not get that same feeling for Static or Roaming AI (NPC) mobs, you get that feeling from other players. So what do you do about it? Make Friends, Make Guilds, enter areas in force, or with the ability to call backup, when outnumbered. It adds an edge.
Sadly, I do not think NW will get to this, but I could always hope, anyways I digress.
PVP Adds Longevity
When you have this type of comradery, it increases a games longevity. I know it is not everyones' cup of tea, but the fact of the matter is, it does help lengthen a games staying power. Another poster here, mentioned WAR, or Warhammer, the PVE content in that game was done by most in a month... with literllay, nothing left to do, but pvp. If the absence of pvp is warranted, just what do you think will keep people around? Player made content and stories, will help, but quite honestly, servers need far more character than just a few stories. They need people, with different agenda's and ideas of how to play, to keep them a living, breathing thing.
PVP Helps Create Story
If you are like me, you are probably foaming at the mouth to use the foundry. What better way to use, than to base it on your servers drama! I mean... I can't tell you how many times I thought some of the things that went on between guild, would make an epic story. Betrail in the Ranks! Surprise from a Cliff! Seige of the Enemies Castle. All this has MASSIVE implications if the Foundry can be used in a way to magnify conflict in the game. What happens if ... dare I say it... A third, and more terrible and destructive guild comes along, and forces the two former enemies to form a new bond and destroy the new threat. All this involves players conflicts with each other, and in the end... Cryptic has a real chance to finally put this in the players hands.
Anyways. I guess I am thinking out of the box too much, and really do not know if the Foundry will ever become this powerful... but man.. There is a chance, and that is why PVP must stay, and must be supported. IMHO.
I'll edit my horrible spelling mistakes later.
"It is our responsibilities, not ourselves, that we should take seriously." Peter Ustinov
I'm a huge pvper just to set the stage. But pvpers are almost always the ones who cry nerf this and nerf that. They are the elitist pricks who come in and inadvertently hinder fun in games. I've already read numerous posts about this and that being OP, this game NEEDS this and NEEDS that. Need? Seriously? Maybe you're applying 'need' to things that you're simply used to. Entitled brats. Just cut the BS and play.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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fexhieMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
So, this baffles me. And I don't mean to offend anyone, I am honestly looking for serious answers.
If you are one of the people looking forward to PvP in this game, or are mostly planning to play this game for the PvP or feel that PvP is a really big concern when it comes to whether or not you play this game...I have to ask, Why?
There are plenty of PvP-centric MMOs out there. TONS. What makes you so interested in making sure THIS MMO has hardcore, super competitive, extremely well balanced PvP?
More importantly, what about the D&D Forgotten Realms setting makes you think competitive PvP? D&D, to me, has ALWAYS been about cooperation, not competition. I have NEVER played a PnP D&D game where we had PvP. Sure, there were occasions where blows were traded between party members, but it was always extremely rare and always something tied very deeply with the story, not something you just signed up to do ("He guys, there's an arena in the next town, lets stop our adventuring and go beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of each other!").
I get that a lot of you really enjoy PvP. I don't have a problem with PvP being in the game. It just baffles me when I see posts like "GWF is the worst class in the game cause he's bad at PvP." or "Clerics HAVE to have a self-heal nerf or they'll be too powerful in PvP." or other, similar style posts.
IMO, if the game didn't have PvP, it wouldn't suffer one bit. I just don't get the mindset of "PvP rules all." that a lot of people on these forums seem to have, specifically because this is a D&D game, and D&D has always been about non-competitive cooperation.
It always baffled me how people could like pve in mmos. If you want to do pve single player rpgs are much better.
Here is how I usually feel after doing a few hours of pve: bored ****less and frustrated.
Here is how I usually feel after doing a few hours of pvp (in a game with good pvp like GW2): What?! Do I have to stop?! Just one more game!
As to pnp D&D having no connection with pvp- have you never heard of or played D&D minis or the new D&D Dungeon Command game? Both are pvp skirmish games that evolved from pnp D&D. To say that D&D has no connection with pvp or that "I don't like pvp because I am a pnp D&Der" is a fallacy. Your dislike of pvp has nothing to do with your love of D&D just as my background in D&D has little to do with my feelings toward pvp.
Why do I post here to give feedback and thoughts on pvp? Because the game has an amazing pvp skirmish game built in! The combat system meshes wonderfully with pvp (and makes pve heaps more fun). I want to give feedback on an area of the game that I have had a lot of experience with in other games and that I enjoy playing.
The desire of passionate players to want to polish what's there just seems natural to me.
I love D&D. I love PvP. Having the two together in one game is great. There's your answer, OP. Also, you mention that in your opinion the game wouldn't suffer without PvP. That's your opinion and I guess it comes down to your choice of words... would it suffer/fail without PvP? No, I agree with you there. But it will draw in a larger audience with the PvP. I'm not talking a lot, but I'm sure there are some out here that look at the PvP as an extra boon, and that little extra might keep more people playing Neverwinter longer.
Guys, gals. There's an easy pen and paper answer to this: make characters HARDCORE. See how many people are willing to toss their character into the PvP ring when they lose it permanently when they die. Competitive? Check. Catering to PvPers? Check. Following the rules of D&D? Check.
That being said, I see PvP as another event, same as the Foundry event, the Profession event, the Dungeon event. Gives people more content to play. Also, it lets you gauge the build of your character and see where you can improve. Plus, playin against thinking humans vs AI is always more engaging. PvE is fun in it's own right. But 2 guys plucking arrows at you while 2 more swat at you while standing still isn't as immersive as wondering where that....rogue....went.....? *stab*
"A True Friend Stabs You in the Front."
~Oscar Wilde~
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
So, this baffles me. And I don't mean to offend anyone, I am honestly looking for serious answers.
If you are one of the people looking forward to PvP in this game, or are mostly planning to play this game for the PvP or feel that PvP is a really big concern when it comes to whether or not you play this game...I have to ask, Why?
There are plenty of PvP-centric MMOs out there. TONS. What makes you so interested in making sure THIS MMO has hardcore, super competitive, extremely well balanced PvP?
More importantly, what about the D&D Forgotten Realms setting makes you think competitive PvP? D&D, to me, has ALWAYS been about cooperation, not competition. I have NEVER played a PnP D&D game where we had PvP. Sure, there were occasions where blows were traded between party members, but it was always extremely rare and always something tied very deeply with the story, not something you just signed up to do ("He guys, there's an arena in the next town, lets stop our adventuring and go beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of each other!").
I get that a lot of you really enjoy PvP. I don't have a problem with PvP being in the game. It just baffles me when I see posts like "GWF is the worst class in the game cause he's bad at PvP." or "Clerics HAVE to have a self-heal nerf or they'll be too powerful in PvP." or other, similar style posts.
IMO, if the game didn't have PvP, it wouldn't suffer one bit. I just don't get the mindset of "PvP rules all." that a lot of people on these forums seem to have, specifically because this is a D&D game, and D&D has always been about non-competitive cooperation.
Let me explain my perspective for you. First of all, yes, the IP for this game is dungeons and dragons, but that doesn't mean this game needs to A. adhere as strictly as possible to the IP, B. try to recreate the experience of pen and paper in an online world or C. appeal strictly to fans of dungeons and dragons. Dungeons and dragons fans are a niche compared to the overall market for MMOs. You are the players that are most likely to be playing this game in 1 or 2 years, and you are currently the majority on these forums and probably will be the majority on launch day and certainly during head start. Cryptic can't possibly intend to appeal only to you. They are a business, you are a small piece of the pie, and you're the piece thats most likely to be here come hell or high water.
The rest of the pie are mmo players, and more broadly gamers in general. They play this game NOT BECAUSE IT IS D&D but because it is an mmo, a game. The IP is mostly irrelevant for them. What is relevant is the gameplay itself, the features and mechanics of the game, etc. While D&D veterans are more likely to favor PvE content because thats what D&D is all about, the broader market could care less about D&D. What they want is a game thats more favorable to them than WoW or X other game that they would otherwise be playing. For many, although certainly not the majority of those players, PvP is a major factor in that. If PvP features are not in this game at launch or soon after, they will go back to X game and never even think of returning to Neverwinter even if changes are made.
So why am I passionate about PvP in this game? On a personal level, because I am in the group of MMO players. I never played pen and paper D&D and how strictly this game adheres to it is literally entirely irrelevant to me. What is relevant is the game itself, how it plays, how fun it is, and from my experience in BWE3 and 4 its a lot fun. I want to see PvP succeed because having played it quite a bit these last two beta weekends I think it has a lot of potential. I want to see the potential realized because its something I as a gamer want to experience, and I know from experience that in order to reach that potential cryptic is really going to need to be supportive, not 100% focused, but supportive and dedicated to PvP and the community.
PvE will likely always be the focus of the developers for this game because its the more popular form of content in MMOs at the moment and because the IP is D&D, but at the same time PvP is lacking features that are critically important and if they aren't added, the pvp community will die with no hope of really coming back strongly. I've seen this happen time and time again and I don't want to see it happen here because I thoroughly enjoy this game and would like to see it become a success.
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mettiidoreMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited April 2013
people who are saying pvp isn't co-operation - you're all ****ing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. you PvP in a team. It perhaps requires MORE co-operation to beat another team than beating coded mobs.
So, this baffles me. And I don't mean to offend anyone, I am honestly looking for serious answers.
If you are one of the people looking forward to PvP in this game, or are mostly planning to play this game for the PvP or feel that PvP is a really big concern when it comes to whether or not you play this game...I have to ask, Why?
There are plenty of PvP-centric MMOs out there. TONS. What makes you so interested in making sure THIS MMO has hardcore, super competitive, extremely well balanced PvP?
More importantly, what about the D&D Forgotten Realms setting makes you think competitive PvP? D&D, to me, has ALWAYS been about cooperation, not competition. I have NEVER played a PnP D&D game where we had PvP. Sure, there were occasions where blows were traded between party members, but it was always extremely rare and always something tied very deeply with the story, not something you just signed up to do ("He guys, there's an arena in the next town, lets stop our adventuring and go beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of each other!").
I get that a lot of you really enjoy PvP. I don't have a problem with PvP being in the game. It just baffles me when I see posts like "GWF is the worst class in the game cause he's bad at PvP." or "Clerics HAVE to have a self-heal nerf or they'll be too powerful in PvP." or other, similar style posts.
IMO, if the game didn't have PvP, it wouldn't suffer one bit. I just don't get the mindset of "PvP rules all." that a lot of people on these forums seem to have, specifically because this is a D&D game, and D&D has always been about non-competitive cooperation.
What's with all the PvP hate? This game needs good PvP if it wants to stay competitive with other MMO's . Who cares if is DnD lol What is it that you do the most in a DnD game anyways? The answer is kick monsters asses and other adventurers. You can think of PvP as a more realistic version of all the *** kicking you do in PnP =]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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urnusthebeatpoetMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 62Arc User
edited April 2013
Okay, so I think a lot of people are misinterperiting the motivations behind this post.
I don't hate PvP. I don't hate PvP players. I don't think Neverwinter should be PvE only. Please make sure you understand that.
My issue (which has been resolved) is that I didn't understand why PvPers were actively seeking out this game to do their PvPing in. I understand what a lot of (nice) PvPers have said; The games mechanics, action combat, lend itself well to PvP and PvPing in Neverwinter is different and fun compared to other MMOs.
That's great. I am really glad you all enjoy the PvP in Neverwinter and I am glad you'll be playing the game because of PvP.
I am a little upset that there are so many negative posts here. I had a honest and simple question, and a small number of people seem to be very offended that I would even consider why people like PvP, as if liking PvP is something that everyone does and not liking PvP makes you weird. PvP community, you're not doing yourself any favors by being hostile.
So again, thanks to the people who answered my question in a polite way. And thanks for the people who contributed their thoughts in other, positive manners.
Finally, I want to say that PnP D&D (the type of D&D this game is based on, however loosely) lends itself to non-PvP play. It was made so that players could get together and battle NPCs, not each other. I understand there are other products with the D&D licence that have PvP as their central focus, but that is in no way relevant to this post or my question.
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kaz92Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited April 2013
I feel PvP allows you to challenge yourself and prove your skill against enemies of similar level/gear or w/e and PvE is a different type of challenge with more progression. I myself have always enjoyed PvP more than PvE, just because the challenge in PvP is more dynamic, you are faced with many more situations, which have multiple different outcomes. I'm not saying PvE is less of a challenge, but I believe the combat is more linear, so in most cases, less enjoyable.
And for the people that cry about stuff being too weak or overpowered, this could be true, but there will always be a way to counter it and instead of crying about it, try and defeat it. People are generally too quick to say if something is good/bad and in most cases they just don't know how to play correctly.
Just so you know, I do not care about the lore behind D&D, all I'm looking for is a well developed game, which requires a sufficient amount of skill and offers a lot of different content, be it PvE or PvP.
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urnusthebeatpoetMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 62Arc User
edited April 2013
Again, thanks to all the people who have contributed in constructive, friendly manner to this post. I an not a pvper myself, but it's nice to know that we can all get along...lol
Okay, so I think a lot of people are misinterperiting the motivations behind this post.
I don't hate PvP. I don't hate PvP players. I don't think Neverwinter should be PvE only. Please make sure you understand that.
My issue (which has been resolved) is that I didn't understand why PvPers were actively seeking out this game to do their PvPing in. I understand what a lot of (nice) PvPers have said; The games mechanics, action combat, lend itself well to PvP and PvPing in Neverwinter is different and fun compared to other MMOs.
That's great. I am really glad you all enjoy the PvP in Neverwinter and I am glad you'll be playing the game because of PvP.
I am a little upset that there are so many negative posts here. I had a honest and simple question, and a small number of people seem to be very offended that I would even consider why people like PvP, as if liking PvP is something that everyone does and not liking PvP makes you weird. PvP community, you're not doing yourself any favors by being hostile.
So again, thanks to the people who answered my question in a polite way. And thanks for the people who contributed their thoughts in other, positive manners.
Finally, I want to say that PnP D&D (the type of D&D this game is based on, however loosely) lends itself to non-PvP play. It was made so that players could get together and battle NPCs, not each other. I understand there are other products with the D&D licence that have PvP as their central focus, but that is in no way relevant to this post or my question.
Yes I think I bundled you in with the pvp haters on the forum, sorry about that!
I actually was attracted to the game because of the foundry, the D&D setting, and the action combat (and because it was a non-sub game). I only found out pvp was in the game late in the piece, and thought it would be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, but was blown away by how good it was.
So yeah, I would have played the game without pvp, at least for a while; but the fact it has quite good pvp bgs included was the icing on the cake for me. Seriously, after playing the first bg I thought "wtf, this game has a well rounded pvp mini game from the get go, that you can level in, and has upscaling, and bracketed till level-cap, and all that wasn't even really advertised? Totally awesome".
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daviaugusto1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I love D&D and MMOs, once I played neverwinter I felt in love. It has a lot to do with D&D, but without the tabletop mechanics that just makes a slow gameplay on a videogame. I never though much about PvP until i tried it on BW3. Hell, it was the best PvP experience I had in any MMO, even on those simple dominion battlegrounds. The PvE content was also fun, and I loved it too, but because I was not expecting much from the PvP it probably made me really impressed by it.
I love to PvE with my buddies, but when I am playing by myself, I like to PvP more than do quests or PvE with pugs. PvE is all about playing with friends, PvP is all about kicking some butts
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urnusthebeatpoetMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 62Arc User
edited April 2013
Yeah, and I really appreciate that Cryptic put the PvP in there and bothered to make it fun, because it brings more people to the game (which is great) and keeps people playing (which is also great). I think MMOs only benefit from a larger community, no matter what the individual communities members are doing within the game. Everyone benefits from more people playing. And PvP does bring in more people (like many people have mentioned in this thread). So, in that respect, I am really glad Neverwinter has awesome PvP that is attracting more players.
I think what is often the case is that one side (PvErs or PvPers) feels that their favorite part of the game isn't getting enough love as a direct consequence of the other side getting said love. Sadly, in many many many MMOs, it's actually true. Hopefully Neverwinter won't be like that. But that's up to the Devs. The players themselves are blameless. So there's no reason for one side to be mad at the other. If PvE or PvP isn't getting the attention it deserves, that's the Dev's fault, not the fault of the people who enjoy one side of the game over the other.
PWE is a business. PvP generates business. More business = more money. Don't like it? Open your own not-for-profit gaming studio and knock yourself out. Until then, companies will continue to cater to as large a demographic as they can.
That's called "good business".
Deal with it or don't. Doesn't matter either way. PvP is here and that's not going to change.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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urnusthebeatpoetMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 62Arc User
PWE is a business. PvP generates business. More business = more money. Don't like it? Open your own not-for-profit gaming studio and knock yourself out. Until then, companies will continue to cater to as large a demographic as they can.
That's called "good business".
Deal with it or don't. Doesn't matter either way. PvP is here and that's not going to change.
Obviously you (mis)read my original post and decided that I was asking why PWE/Cryptic made PvP because I hate it so much. Please read the whole tread. If you had, you'd have noticed that A.) I have no ill will towards PvPers or Cryptic/PWE for putting PvP into their game B.) I was simply asking PvPers what drew them to Neverwinter for the PvP in the first place, C.) many people gave me very nice, well thought out, answers with no anger or malice, and D.) I get that PWE/Cryptic are here to make money and that PvP makes money. So yeah. In general, just be nicer.
Remember what people say about the word assume, "It makes U look like an *** in front of Me."
There is definitely some PVP in pnp D&D. Have had a couple fun(tense:)) games when another player(with the DM) turned out to be a super villain of sorts, the rest of the group then had to take on. Gave it up with counsel gaming myself but definite appeal for players who enjoy both PVE & PVP, especially in FR setting.
Good PvP is pretty much endless content in itself, so it would certainly give much more to enjoy in game for me.
I will not invest in non PvP MMO, as I really like PvP quite a bit. As I like most things in this game, I'd like it to have decent PvP too, otherwise I wouldn't bother to play it much anyway.
What would fit in to D&D setting really well, would be competitive dungeons. Have your good and evil teams run a same instance with different start points, trapping and ambushing each others, to steal the treasure first. Different PvP than usual, and would fit well in setting.
Arena PvP is good fun ofcourse, not hard to get an excuse for that really. And dueling fits any fantasy setting for sure. At least myD&D certrainly has always included lawful evil duelist, who look around equal characters and challenge them to duels, just to see who wins. (Nice way to give player chance to get better equipment for his class if he's falling behind for some reason in PnP rpg.)
Edit: not a big fan of open PvP, I'd like it to be something like a reproductional activity; everyone should be voluntarily involved.
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urnusthebeatpoetMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 62Arc User
edited April 2013
That "competitive dungeon" thing sounds AWESOME...like seriously, that could be some of the best MMO times ever if it was done right.
I can only hope that Cryptic does a better job balancing PvP in this game than they did in Champions. PvP has died there because the min-maxers are able to create PvP builds that completely wipe the floor with your average player's character in 1-2 hits. That has essentially closed PvP off from the average player and created a very small cadre of PvP'ers who simply duel each other over and over again in the central gathering area of the Millennium City zone. The dedicated PvP arenas are ghost towns.
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leissesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
beatpoet, as many guys already said why they want PvP in this game I'll talk about another thing that probably it's what motivates you to create this topic.
We've seen some PvP topics around forums and in ALL of them some PvP haters destroy a constructive topic asking for improvement at PvP, which means improvement at game, and trash talk about asking people to leave this game and play other games. Maybe that was not your intention to trash talk the same thing, but your first post here mentioned PvPers going for other games and that's probably why so many people got mad with your words.
I see the PvP community in these forums looking for some improvement at PvP and getting attacked by these guys for nothing. Instead of attack the PvPers they could've been just asking for DEVs to work hard on balance to make it possible to become enjoyable for PvPers and PvEers. Even at jkaplan's topic where he and others gave good ideas to help make it possible to balance game while been enjoyable for both sides people kept attacking them for free.
Well, I'm sorry my poor english (it became worse because I'm pretty sleepy now). GN...
Comments
I'm glad someone posted that. I was really hoping that PVP wouldn't even be in this game. We'd see a heck of a lot less "nerf this class because" stuff. Hopefully the devs will keep all the new nerfs for the "special people" pvp stuff out of the PVE side of gaming.
While they may of gotten a nerf, I highly doubt it would of been changed to the extent it was, they pretty much removed all out of stealth bonus damage from the class.
While Rogues did do some superlative pve damage, they are the only dps class currently in the game. And it is much easier to for most players to overlook what one class is doing in pve especially when they are the only dps class, but it is much harder for them to overlook it when they are getting it shoved up their corpses in pvp. Great Fighters I think, were primarily nerfed for pve reasons, however I do not think this was the case for rogues.
That's exactly what PvP is, a game play "Option" No one is forcing you to participate if you don't want to. It isn't going to effect the way you PvE as I firmly believe they won't nerf a class in to oblivion based on PvP results.
Saying PnP D&D doesn't have PvP in it is kind of ridiculous. Anything is possible in PnP D&D. I have fought against party members in PnP before as I believe others have as well.
PVPer rocking it Solo queue style since the dawn of Neverwinter
In my experience the main "problem" with having both pvp and pve in a the same game is balancing the classes. Too often some classes start out fine for PvE, are then suddenly considered OP for PvP and nerfed meaning they suddenly get underpowered for PvE, leading to the developer needing to nerf the other classes in PvE. You see the vicious circle here :-)
Only game I have heard of implementing this in a good way was Guild Wars (not GW2, but the first one). Here you had access to the same skills in PvE and PvP, but damage, heals, effects etc. were all Unique whether you used the skill within PvE or PvP, so e.g. a fireball could give 100 damage in PvE, but only 90 in PvP and not give splash damage (imaginary example here). To me this is a great way of combining PvE and PvP into the same game as it becomes possible to balance classes around the playstyle it is used in. Granted the negative thing it does is eliminate the possibility for PvP servers, where two players in PvE can start attacking each other on a whim during questing. A small Price in my opinion, though I do know others like the old PvP servers in e.g. WoW (ah, ganking in Stranglethorn Vale how I hated you and yet still loved you :-) )
That being said, I, again, have no problem with PvP being in this game. I played a small amount in Beta Weekend 4, it was good times. I won't play much of it come launch, but I am glad it is there for the people who want it.
I also really appreciate the people who have taken the time to actually answer my question (the overwhelming result of which seems to be that the action-oriented gameplay makes the PvP in Neverwinter very different from PvP in other MMOs, and people like that difference). So thanks!
Sure you could finish a story arch, going after the main bad guy, but when it was dead, it didn't come back.
I think you should learn to embrace the changes they have made, to make this part of the game, because it helps the development of the game that much more.
Let me give you an example of some background of why.
PVP Creates an Edge
In this example, you will have one guild at war with another, for different reasons. These reasons create atmosphere for the playerbase, that is fun at times and frustrating at others. Now open up the ability of players to create content in the game, that can involve pvp. A story is created that brings these waring factions together, in a way that is dramatical increased based on the players dislike for one another.
For that matter, it brings me back to the EQ days, while it wont totally be simulated here, there was a certain edge, to actually being weary of the areas you went to, because there was always the threat of what you could not see. You do not get that same feeling for Static or Roaming AI (NPC) mobs, you get that feeling from other players. So what do you do about it? Make Friends, Make Guilds, enter areas in force, or with the ability to call backup, when outnumbered. It adds an edge.
Sadly, I do not think NW will get to this, but I could always hope, anyways I digress.
PVP Adds Longevity
When you have this type of comradery, it increases a games longevity. I know it is not everyones' cup of tea, but the fact of the matter is, it does help lengthen a games staying power. Another poster here, mentioned WAR, or Warhammer, the PVE content in that game was done by most in a month... with literllay, nothing left to do, but pvp. If the absence of pvp is warranted, just what do you think will keep people around? Player made content and stories, will help, but quite honestly, servers need far more character than just a few stories. They need people, with different agenda's and ideas of how to play, to keep them a living, breathing thing.
PVP Helps Create Story
If you are like me, you are probably foaming at the mouth to use the foundry. What better way to use, than to base it on your servers drama! I mean... I can't tell you how many times I thought some of the things that went on between guild, would make an epic story. Betrail in the Ranks! Surprise from a Cliff! Seige of the Enemies Castle. All this has MASSIVE implications if the Foundry can be used in a way to magnify conflict in the game. What happens if ... dare I say it... A third, and more terrible and destructive guild comes along, and forces the two former enemies to form a new bond and destroy the new threat. All this involves players conflicts with each other, and in the end... Cryptic has a real chance to finally put this in the players hands.
Anyways. I guess I am thinking out of the box too much, and really do not know if the Foundry will ever become this powerful... but man.. There is a chance, and that is why PVP must stay, and must be supported. IMHO.
I'll edit my horrible spelling mistakes later.
Actually the you think was directed towards great fighters and pve. I said do NOT think towards rogues. Don't misquote.
It always baffled me how people could like pve in mmos. If you want to do pve single player rpgs are much better.
Here is how I usually feel after doing a few hours of pve: bored ****less and frustrated.
Here is how I usually feel after doing a few hours of pvp (in a game with good pvp like GW2): What?! Do I have to stop?! Just one more game!
As to pnp D&D having no connection with pvp- have you never heard of or played D&D minis or the new D&D Dungeon Command game? Both are pvp skirmish games that evolved from pnp D&D. To say that D&D has no connection with pvp or that "I don't like pvp because I am a pnp D&Der" is a fallacy. Your dislike of pvp has nothing to do with your love of D&D just as my background in D&D has little to do with my feelings toward pvp.
Why do I post here to give feedback and thoughts on pvp? Because the game has an amazing pvp skirmish game built in! The combat system meshes wonderfully with pvp (and makes pve heaps more fun). I want to give feedback on an area of the game that I have had a lot of experience with in other games and that I enjoy playing.
The desire of passionate players to want to polish what's there just seems natural to me.
That being said, I see PvP as another event, same as the Foundry event, the Profession event, the Dungeon event. Gives people more content to play. Also, it lets you gauge the build of your character and see where you can improve. Plus, playin against thinking humans vs AI is always more engaging. PvE is fun in it's own right. But 2 guys plucking arrows at you while 2 more swat at you while standing still isn't as immersive as wondering where that....rogue....went.....? *stab*
~Oscar Wilde~
"Look at what the Great Weapon Fighter can do, he's so OP!"
~Andy Velasquez~
Let me explain my perspective for you. First of all, yes, the IP for this game is dungeons and dragons, but that doesn't mean this game needs to A. adhere as strictly as possible to the IP, B. try to recreate the experience of pen and paper in an online world or C. appeal strictly to fans of dungeons and dragons. Dungeons and dragons fans are a niche compared to the overall market for MMOs. You are the players that are most likely to be playing this game in 1 or 2 years, and you are currently the majority on these forums and probably will be the majority on launch day and certainly during head start. Cryptic can't possibly intend to appeal only to you. They are a business, you are a small piece of the pie, and you're the piece thats most likely to be here come hell or high water.
The rest of the pie are mmo players, and more broadly gamers in general. They play this game NOT BECAUSE IT IS D&D but because it is an mmo, a game. The IP is mostly irrelevant for them. What is relevant is the gameplay itself, the features and mechanics of the game, etc. While D&D veterans are more likely to favor PvE content because thats what D&D is all about, the broader market could care less about D&D. What they want is a game thats more favorable to them than WoW or X other game that they would otherwise be playing. For many, although certainly not the majority of those players, PvP is a major factor in that. If PvP features are not in this game at launch or soon after, they will go back to X game and never even think of returning to Neverwinter even if changes are made.
So why am I passionate about PvP in this game? On a personal level, because I am in the group of MMO players. I never played pen and paper D&D and how strictly this game adheres to it is literally entirely irrelevant to me. What is relevant is the game itself, how it plays, how fun it is, and from my experience in BWE3 and 4 its a lot fun. I want to see PvP succeed because having played it quite a bit these last two beta weekends I think it has a lot of potential. I want to see the potential realized because its something I as a gamer want to experience, and I know from experience that in order to reach that potential cryptic is really going to need to be supportive, not 100% focused, but supportive and dedicated to PvP and the community.
PvE will likely always be the focus of the developers for this game because its the more popular form of content in MMOs at the moment and because the IP is D&D, but at the same time PvP is lacking features that are critically important and if they aren't added, the pvp community will die with no hope of really coming back strongly. I've seen this happen time and time again and I don't want to see it happen here because I thoroughly enjoy this game and would like to see it become a success.
What's with all the PvP hate? This game needs good PvP if it wants to stay competitive with other MMO's . Who cares if is DnD lol What is it that you do the most in a DnD game anyways? The answer is kick monsters asses and other adventurers. You can think of PvP as a more realistic version of all the *** kicking you do in PnP =]
I don't hate PvP. I don't hate PvP players. I don't think Neverwinter should be PvE only. Please make sure you understand that.
My issue (which has been resolved) is that I didn't understand why PvPers were actively seeking out this game to do their PvPing in. I understand what a lot of (nice) PvPers have said; The games mechanics, action combat, lend itself well to PvP and PvPing in Neverwinter is different and fun compared to other MMOs.
That's great. I am really glad you all enjoy the PvP in Neverwinter and I am glad you'll be playing the game because of PvP.
I am a little upset that there are so many negative posts here. I had a honest and simple question, and a small number of people seem to be very offended that I would even consider why people like PvP, as if liking PvP is something that everyone does and not liking PvP makes you weird. PvP community, you're not doing yourself any favors by being hostile.
So again, thanks to the people who answered my question in a polite way. And thanks for the people who contributed their thoughts in other, positive manners.
Finally, I want to say that PnP D&D (the type of D&D this game is based on, however loosely) lends itself to non-PvP play. It was made so that players could get together and battle NPCs, not each other. I understand there are other products with the D&D licence that have PvP as their central focus, but that is in no way relevant to this post or my question.
And for the people that cry about stuff being too weak or overpowered, this could be true, but there will always be a way to counter it and instead of crying about it, try and defeat it. People are generally too quick to say if something is good/bad and in most cases they just don't know how to play correctly.
Just so you know, I do not care about the lore behind D&D, all I'm looking for is a well developed game, which requires a sufficient amount of skill and offers a lot of different content, be it PvE or PvP.
Yes I think I bundled you in with the pvp haters on the forum, sorry about that!
I actually was attracted to the game because of the foundry, the D&D setting, and the action combat (and because it was a non-sub game). I only found out pvp was in the game late in the piece, and thought it would be <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, but was blown away by how good it was.
So yeah, I would have played the game without pvp, at least for a while; but the fact it has quite good pvp bgs included was the icing on the cake for me. Seriously, after playing the first bg I thought "wtf, this game has a well rounded pvp mini game from the get go, that you can level in, and has upscaling, and bracketed till level-cap, and all that wasn't even really advertised? Totally awesome".
I love to PvE with my buddies, but when I am playing by myself, I like to PvP more than do quests or PvE with pugs. PvE is all about playing with friends, PvP is all about kicking some butts
I think what is often the case is that one side (PvErs or PvPers) feels that their favorite part of the game isn't getting enough love as a direct consequence of the other side getting said love. Sadly, in many many many MMOs, it's actually true. Hopefully Neverwinter won't be like that. But that's up to the Devs. The players themselves are blameless. So there's no reason for one side to be mad at the other. If PvE or PvP isn't getting the attention it deserves, that's the Dev's fault, not the fault of the people who enjoy one side of the game over the other.
PWE is a business. PvP generates business. More business = more money. Don't like it? Open your own not-for-profit gaming studio and knock yourself out. Until then, companies will continue to cater to as large a demographic as they can.
That's called "good business".
Deal with it or don't. Doesn't matter either way. PvP is here and that's not going to change.
Obviously you (mis)read my original post and decided that I was asking why PWE/Cryptic made PvP because I hate it so much. Please read the whole tread. If you had, you'd have noticed that A.) I have no ill will towards PvPers or Cryptic/PWE for putting PvP into their game B.) I was simply asking PvPers what drew them to Neverwinter for the PvP in the first place, C.) many people gave me very nice, well thought out, answers with no anger or malice, and D.) I get that PWE/Cryptic are here to make money and that PvP makes money. So yeah. In general, just be nicer.
Remember what people say about the word assume, "It makes U look like an *** in front of Me."
I will not invest in non PvP MMO, as I really like PvP quite a bit. As I like most things in this game, I'd like it to have decent PvP too, otherwise I wouldn't bother to play it much anyway.
What would fit in to D&D setting really well, would be competitive dungeons. Have your good and evil teams run a same instance with different start points, trapping and ambushing each others, to steal the treasure first. Different PvP than usual, and would fit well in setting.
Arena PvP is good fun ofcourse, not hard to get an excuse for that really. And dueling fits any fantasy setting for sure. At least myD&D certrainly has always included lawful evil duelist, who look around equal characters and challenge them to duels, just to see who wins. (Nice way to give player chance to get better equipment for his class if he's falling behind for some reason in PnP rpg.)
Edit: not a big fan of open PvP, I'd like it to be something like a reproductional activity; everyone should be voluntarily involved.
We've seen some PvP topics around forums and in ALL of them some PvP haters destroy a constructive topic asking for improvement at PvP, which means improvement at game, and trash talk about asking people to leave this game and play other games. Maybe that was not your intention to trash talk the same thing, but your first post here mentioned PvPers going for other games and that's probably why so many people got mad with your words.
I see the PvP community in these forums looking for some improvement at PvP and getting attacked by these guys for nothing. Instead of attack the PvPers they could've been just asking for DEVs to work hard on balance to make it possible to become enjoyable for PvPers and PvEers. Even at jkaplan's topic where he and others gave good ideas to help make it possible to balance game while been enjoyable for both sides people kept attacking them for free.
Well, I'm sorry my poor english (it became worse because I'm pretty sleepy now). GN...