The Bait and Switch "clone" summon time was nerfed too. Just because you don't like a certain class don't sit there and try to feed misinformation to the rest of us.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
When life turns it's back on you, sneak attack it for extra damage!
Sorry for derailing the thread. The GWF's I've seen seem to be far weaker than necessary. Even if The dmg nerfs stay and they return the maneuverability it will be a vast improvement.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
When life turns it's back on you, sneak attack it for extra damage!
I was playing alfa couple days ago too. Lv 60.
And my feelings about the class are tottally opposite to yours.
I am comparing this class to any other (lv50, cant say about lv 60 becouse of NDA), and - in my opinion - this is weakest class on the table right now.
Worst change for me is nerfing Sure Strike to single-target. GWF is now forced to use slow, boring, clumsy at-wills.
Cant say much becouse of NDA, but in BW3 i loved GWF, now i just hate his playstyle (BW4).
If you are telling us you are an alpha and discussing the high level gameplay, that's breaking your NDA isn't it?
Also the "Alpha" and "level 60" that you made sure to point out aren't jawdropping. I did not wet myself when I found out we had king among us paupers.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
When life turns it's back on you, sneak attack it for extra damage!
worst class is the cleric at the moment, gwf doesn't shine as it used to and probably needs some of the damage back but it's not -nearly- as bad as cleric.
If you are telling us you are an alpha and discussing the high level gameplay, that's breaking your NDA isn't it?
Also the "Alpha" and "level 60" that you made sure to point out aren't jawdropping. I did not wet myself when I found out we had king among us paupers.
1. read carefully. I am talking aboult lv 50 (avilable in BW3 and BW4)
2. i love both GWF and rogue. If GWF stays as it is now, i will roll rogue. But point is: 70% people will play rogue, and that is bad game design.
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
The changes made to Sure Strike have had a rather negative impact on both offensive and defensive builds. That along with broken threat generation (a problem in general not just for GWF) makes the class a poor off-tank even. Granted I can still take a hit rather well, but what's the point of being either a DPS or Tank spec when the class simply falters in either role.
I won't comment on every individual change at this time, but these are my opinions as a level 50 GWF with experience in both specializations. I've been purchasing respec tokens in an effort to further test the changes that have been made.
| Banners of the Light | Recruitment is open | End Game PvE and PvP |
| Lust | Level 60 Guardian Fighter 15.8k GS|
GWF dps sucks now compared to what it was, he takes too much damage also. I'll still roll one at launch no matter what, but GWF and Cleric need some help.
/signed + i wil do the same - is there a way to see patch notes from alpha server to see what they gonna do if they do something ?
Lack of Punishing Charge is a really bad thing, both for manouverability and fun.
Nerf to Sure Strike's aoe dmg is a horrible nerf. If you must make it a single target strike, needs to be a significant single target dmg boost to make it an viable option.
The GWF's I've seen seem to be far weaker than necessary. Even if The dmg nerfs stay and they return the maneuverability it will be a vast improvement.
And Yes.
In regards to the first Yes, for something that looks as destructive as Sure Strike when slamming down your weapon causing cracks to come up in the ground, it sure feels like you're swinging a wet noodle at lower levels.
All these nerfs the devs have made in regards to trying to balance at lvl 60, I am really starting to feel they have forgotten half of the journey and that is leveling your character along the way. If leveling your character is what a every single person here will be doing, and they don't care about the leveling experience and only want to tune for lvl 60 content, this game will indeed be VERY boring up till that point.
Cryptic, please, I assure you, BW3's leveling progression and balance was perfect, revert it back to the way it was and maybe scale up Monster HP / DPS at end levels so that everything is equally balanced. As it is now, leveling is unbalanced and unfun, you should take heed to this warning and fix it now once release hits. Or you will have many very sad customers. Oh and change back Punishing Charge for the 1 billionth time.
"There are more things in heaven and earth,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
In regards to the first Yes, for something that looks as destructive as Sure Strike when slamming down your weapon causing cracks to come up in the ground, it sure feels like you're swinging a wet noodle at lower levels.
All these nerfs the devs have made in regards to trying to balance at lvl 60, I am really starting to feel they have forgotten half of the journey and that is leveling your character along the way. If leveling your character is what a every single person here will be doing, and they don't care about the leveling experience and only want to tune for lvl 60 content, this game will indeed be VERY boring up till that point.
Cryptic, please, I assure you, BW3's leveling progression and balance was perfect, revert it back to the way it was and maybe scale up Monster HP / DPS at end levels so that everything is equally balanced. As it is now, leveling is unbalanced and unfun, you should take heed to this warning and fix it now once release hits. Or you will have many very sad customers. Oh and change back Punishing Charge for the 1 billionth time.
This is very true
0
ehrgzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2013
I got to play while I was at pax east, GF and RT and loved them both. I have a life time account for champions online so I have had a few beta weekend invites before but have been unable to play. I rolled a RT and a GWF yesterday and was shocked at how bad and clunky the GWF feels and is. The trickster is better in every way and can take a hit better then the GWF which I find insane. The class really needs help before open beta.
The GWF was by far more enjoyable in the last beta. I have to say at this point the only way I'd play one again would be the hope someone would come to their senses in the future which is a big question. Reminds me of the total re-work that got given to the Invunerable Tanker in CoH... totally eliminating the class vision as a whole.
Changes like this make me want to not play the game as a whole if there is such a lack of vision for a class that it can be deemed as needing a change this drastic to "resolve" something.
Yeah, the class sucks now tbh. I had a blast playing it BW3... Now I hardly feel like playing the game. Should have held off on that HoTN package.
I'm going to retract my previous statement, I've struggled a lot and toughed it out with my GWF, I've switched to using single target dps skills (Take down / Flourish / Restoring Strike) and eventually got the hang of using sprint effectively to dodge attacks, and maneuver behind enemy's.
I just finished Pirate King Dungeon, with a full team one of each class. I had the most kills, while TR had about 1.2m dmg, and I was around 1m dmg. CW was significantly behind (he might have just sucked) at like 700k.
I'm lv46 now and have punishing charge, and gave it a go. Found that I actually prefer current setup as I can kill stuff much faster.
BW3 was still more fun, but it's not that bad if you give it a chance.
Well I'm at level 41 now, at BW3 I stopped at 30. Here's my impression.
Not happy with some changes, but overall I feel like I'm doing more damage but at the same time I'm squishier.
Anyway, to address a few things that the OP posted:
The change to the Destroyer talent was needed to make the other passives worthwhile. Otherwise we'd just equip Destroyer and be done with it, personally I was running with the crit talent and the talent that lets you gain determination faster.
Sure Strike I'll need to test again but I'm pretty sure I was dealing damage to multiple enemies within the 5' cylinder.
Also if you didn't notice Weaponmaster's Strike has been buffed by a LOT. Once you can pick it up and it becomes your primary AoE tool for tiny minions spread out across the screen you'll just wipe stuff out left and right. I'm able to defeat most basic enemies at my level with 3-hits using it.
I definitely agree we need Punishing Charge earlier - I'd say more around the level 15-area. It should come right around the same time as we become eligible for PvP, it's just too good an escape maneuver to have to wait until level 45 to get and start improving.
While I was using "Not So Fast" I hadn't really noticed the damage nerf until tonight running a few dungeons. I'm thinking I may drop it in favor of Roar but I'm on the fence about doing so. Mostly because I'd prefer a wide-angle AoE attack and while Roar is very attractive for building determination without being attacked - something desperately needed when running in a group with a good tank - I really hate knockdown abilities when I'm playing a class that has absolutely no ranged attacks whatsoever. That is by far my largest complaint, the lack of a ranged attack or single-target peal that can be used on an LT to pull them out of a patch of fire. Made fighting the dragon at the end of the Helm's Hold dungeon just about impossible since every **** time a caster would spawn right in the middle of an acid bath.
Anyway, damage is fine if you spec right for it, but the class could definitely use some changes and a few small buffs.
0
arcademasterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Changes like this make me want to not play the game as a whole if there is such a lack of vision for a class that it can be deemed as needing a change this drastic to "resolve" something.
Sadly this is pretty much Cryptic's Modus Operandi. They don't finetune things until they are right, they just axe everything that was before completely and remake it. I've seen this so, so many times in STO. It makes me sad
i don't play GWF mainly because i play dwarf fighters and dwarves just look like the football helmet kid with a great sword not an axe or hammer lol. BUT anywho i play my rogue and i'm so wanting them to up the dmg of the GWF so he/she can take the dammed aggro off me but alas they go the opposite and make them weaker....bad form Cryptic bad form.
oh and any rogue player that jumps in and says use your stealth to unaggro, yeah for what 5 seconds and them bam the mobs are back on me, lol I do soooooo much dmg with my rogue its not funny i've out damaged a rogue in a dungeon that was 10 levels higher than me, so deaggroing for 5 seconds isn't enough.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The change to the Destroyer talent was needed to make the other passives worthwhile. Otherwise we'd just equip Destroyer and be done with it, personally I was running with the crit talent and the talent that lets you gain determination faster.
They should have changed unstoppable instead of ruining the only really viable dps route. Unstoppable as a class mechanic just isn't very good. I've played all classes now to a decent level, with GWF being the highest, and it is by far the worst. It just doesn't get much use. All of the other classes tab mechanics get usage in every fight. So to get usage with the GWF, they give us one feat tree that make it viable. Of course people are going to go down that tree....so they nerf it. Sigh.
I can appreciate they tried to alleviate the usage problem by giving us a class ability to that helps build determination, but they simply replaced one dps mechanic to put that in. It seems a pointless change, plus it was incredibly slow at building it. If you are a competent DPS that doesn't get hit, you may get one use of unstoppable on a boss fight from this new class ability.
They really just need to get rid of determination fading. It severely limits usage.
Even in Sentinel paragon, you can't get much use out of Unstoppable unless you're running solo. This is due to the broken threat mechanic that we are still putting up with. I don't feel, as some others have mentioned, that the class was well thought out by the developers.
We're two weeks from pre-release and there are no clear signs as to what our viable roles will be - thanks to the BW4 changes and on-going issues.
| Banners of the Light | Recruitment is open | End Game PvE and PvP |
| Lust | Level 60 Guardian Fighter 15.8k GS|
?? Unstoppable is how you go from doing lacklustre dps to something half-decent. Try using the passive that grants determination in combat, and using roar/ daring shout that gives you determination based on how many mobs you hit with it.
?? Unstoppable is how you go from doing lacklustre dps to something half-decent. Try using the passive that grants determination in combat, and using roar/ daring shout that gives you determination based on how many mobs you hit with it.
Compared to directly taking hits it's not as effective of an alternative, and my point was simply in respect to Sentinel and threat. I suppose what you say does hold some weight (at a sacrifice compared to BW3), but purely from a DPS perspective. In regards to balance, the devs need to take multiple builds into consideration.
| Banners of the Light | Recruitment is open | End Game PvE and PvP |
| Lust | Level 60 Guardian Fighter 15.8k GS|
?? Unstoppable is how you go from doing lacklustre dps to something half-decent. Try using the passive that grants determination in combat, and using roar/ daring shout that gives you determination based on how many mobs you hit with it.
So use 1 of two class feature slots and 2 of 3 encounter slots to get our mechanic working properly; leaving 1 class feature and 1 encounter left to play with?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Extinction - GWF
0
zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So use 1 of two class feature slots and 2 of 3 encounter slots to get our mechanic working properly; leaving 1 class feature and 1 encounter left to play with?
I was about to respond with this.
Compare this to the CW whose mechanic not only makes an encounter much stronger, it also allows them to have 4 encounter abilities slotted.
?? Unstoppable is how you go from doing lacklustre dps to something half-decent. Try using the passive that grants determination in combat, and using roar/ daring shout that gives you determination based on how many mobs you hit with it.
Steadfast Determination and Destroyer's Purpose (You now gain Determination by dealing damage, and Unstoppable also increases your damage by 25%) are both extremely lackluster. For being the end trait in the Destroyer Tree, the Determination gain from Destroyer's Purpose is pathetic and also Steadfast Determination requires 3 wasted power points and it's just as bad. Both abilities regen a tiny sliver of your overall Determination bar and it seriously looks like it's like a 1%-2% tick of increase per second, that's way to low / slow.
So use 1 of two class feature slots and 2 of 3 encounter slots to get our mechanic working properly; leaving 1 class feature and 1 encounter left to play with?
This is actually something I was running with until I found out how stupid it was wasting all those slots just to have my Determination mechanic working decently. After that I went with some more actually fun / DPS moves. My one suggestion would be at least increase the Determination gain from Destroyer's Purpose and also give GWF other Determination increasing modifications in the other two trait trees to keep things competitive.
"There are more things in heaven and earth,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
0
vofenn1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited April 2013
Open Beta is by far not launch. Official release is pretty far away. Would you all rather they just turtle and not fix anything or would you rather them actually test things out?
There is a difference between constructive criticism and inneffectual whining. The valid points have already been made and this thread needs to be closed. These petitions and people freaking out with "Zomgwaffleblar the BW3 GWF was like a hobo on bath salts and the bw4 gwf is like a kitten covered in nutella!?!" are unneccesary and are not constructive. Now the post that actually describe the positives and negatives of this patch without embelishment and bias are helpful.
Valid points:
GWF has had a significant reduction in damage versus other classes.
One paragon path seems to be more effective while others seem almost broken.
The GWF is still able to function in pvp but is not decimating foes like it once did.
The GWF needs a Scythe skin for the class <---- best point so far.
With proper skill and inventory you can level and succeed in both pvp and pve thus the class is not broken.
Other than that, this discussion needs more numbers and valid reasoning rather then crying and coddling. We are all (should be) avid DnD players, we are better then this.
Open Beta is by far not launch. Official release is pretty far away. Would you all rather they just turtle and not fix anything or would you rather them actually test things out?
There is a difference between constructive criticism and inneffectual whining. The valid points have already been made and this thread needs to be closed. These petitions and people freaking out with "Zomgwaffleblar the BW3 GWF was like a hobo on bath salts and the bw4 gwf is like a kitten covered in nutella!?!" are unneccesary and are not constructive. Now the post that actually describe the positives and negatives of this patch without embelishment and bias are helpful.
Valid points:
GWF has had a significant reduction in damage versus other classes.
One paragon path seems to be more effective while others seem almost broken.
The GWF is still able to function in pvp but is not decimating foes like it once did.
The GWF needs a Scythe skin for the class <---- best point so far.
With proper skill and inventory you can level and succeed in both pvp and pve thus the class is not broken.
Other than that, this discussion needs more numbers and valid reasoning rather then crying and coddling. We are all (should be) avid DnD players, we are better then this.
I don't see any comments that are threatening, immature or extreme in this thread. There are a group of people voicing concerns after a round of heavy handed changes that have hurt the potential viability of this class. Look at my signature you can see what class I am passionate about in this game.
The GWF as far as I have played which is mid 30's is really starting to have an identity crisis. His dps is dropping far too low on all but weenie packs of monsters with no elites. You get a pack with an elite or two and its insane how much they punish you. Sure you can spec defensive but you still take hits like a champ and lose far too many hps and don't do enough damage back to get enemies down.
I think there was too many nerfs all at once and this class if feeling weak.
Comments
If you are telling us you are an alpha and discussing the high level gameplay, that's breaking your NDA isn't it?
Also the "Alpha" and "level 60" that you made sure to point out aren't jawdropping. I did not wet myself when I found out we had king among us paupers.
1. read carefully. I am talking aboult lv 50 (avilable in BW3 and BW4)
2. i love both GWF and rogue. If GWF stays as it is now, i will roll rogue. But point is: 70% people will play rogue, and that is bad game design.
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest
Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ecy4o6JqLc
/signed + i wil do the same - is there a way to see patch notes from alpha server to see what they gonna do if they do something ?
I won't comment on every individual change at this time, but these are my opinions as a level 50 GWF with experience in both specializations. I've been purchasing respec tokens in an effort to further test the changes that have been made.
| Lust | Level 60 Guardian Fighter 15.8k GS|
No
Yes.
And Yes.
In regards to the first Yes, for something that looks as destructive as Sure Strike when slamming down your weapon causing cracks to come up in the ground, it sure feels like you're swinging a wet noodle at lower levels.
All these nerfs the devs have made in regards to trying to balance at lvl 60, I am really starting to feel they have forgotten half of the journey and that is leveling your character along the way. If leveling your character is what a every single person here will be doing, and they don't care about the leveling experience and only want to tune for lvl 60 content, this game will indeed be VERY boring up till that point.
Cryptic, please, I assure you, BW3's leveling progression and balance was perfect, revert it back to the way it was and maybe scale up Monster HP / DPS at end levels so that everything is equally balanced. As it is now, leveling is unbalanced and unfun, you should take heed to this warning and fix it now once release hits. Or you will have many very sad customers. Oh and change back Punishing Charge for the 1 billionth time.
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
This is very true
Changes like this make me want to not play the game as a whole if there is such a lack of vision for a class that it can be deemed as needing a change this drastic to "resolve" something.
I'm going to retract my previous statement, I've struggled a lot and toughed it out with my GWF, I've switched to using single target dps skills (Take down / Flourish / Restoring Strike) and eventually got the hang of using sprint effectively to dodge attacks, and maneuver behind enemy's.
I just finished Pirate King Dungeon, with a full team one of each class. I had the most kills, while TR had about 1.2m dmg, and I was around 1m dmg. CW was significantly behind (he might have just sucked) at like 700k.
I'm lv46 now and have punishing charge, and gave it a go. Found that I actually prefer current setup as I can kill stuff much faster.
BW3 was still more fun, but it's not that bad if you give it a chance.
Not happy with some changes, but overall I feel like I'm doing more damage but at the same time I'm squishier.
Anyway, to address a few things that the OP posted:
The change to the Destroyer talent was needed to make the other passives worthwhile. Otherwise we'd just equip Destroyer and be done with it, personally I was running with the crit talent and the talent that lets you gain determination faster.
Sure Strike I'll need to test again but I'm pretty sure I was dealing damage to multiple enemies within the 5' cylinder.
Also if you didn't notice Weaponmaster's Strike has been buffed by a LOT. Once you can pick it up and it becomes your primary AoE tool for tiny minions spread out across the screen you'll just wipe stuff out left and right. I'm able to defeat most basic enemies at my level with 3-hits using it.
I definitely agree we need Punishing Charge earlier - I'd say more around the level 15-area. It should come right around the same time as we become eligible for PvP, it's just too good an escape maneuver to have to wait until level 45 to get and start improving.
While I was using "Not So Fast" I hadn't really noticed the damage nerf until tonight running a few dungeons. I'm thinking I may drop it in favor of Roar but I'm on the fence about doing so. Mostly because I'd prefer a wide-angle AoE attack and while Roar is very attractive for building determination without being attacked - something desperately needed when running in a group with a good tank - I really hate knockdown abilities when I'm playing a class that has absolutely no ranged attacks whatsoever. That is by far my largest complaint, the lack of a ranged attack or single-target peal that can be used on an LT to pull them out of a patch of fire. Made fighting the dragon at the end of the Helm's Hold dungeon just about impossible since every **** time a caster would spawn right in the middle of an acid bath.
Anyway, damage is fine if you spec right for it, but the class could definitely use some changes and a few small buffs.
Sadly this is pretty much Cryptic's Modus Operandi. They don't finetune things until they are right, they just axe everything that was before completely and remake it. I've seen this so, so many times in STO. It makes me sad
They should have changed unstoppable instead of ruining the only really viable dps route. Unstoppable as a class mechanic just isn't very good. I've played all classes now to a decent level, with GWF being the highest, and it is by far the worst. It just doesn't get much use. All of the other classes tab mechanics get usage in every fight. So to get usage with the GWF, they give us one feat tree that make it viable. Of course people are going to go down that tree....so they nerf it. Sigh.
I can appreciate they tried to alleviate the usage problem by giving us a class ability to that helps build determination, but they simply replaced one dps mechanic to put that in. It seems a pointless change, plus it was incredibly slow at building it. If you are a competent DPS that doesn't get hit, you may get one use of unstoppable on a boss fight from this new class ability.
They really just need to get rid of determination fading. It severely limits usage.
We're two weeks from pre-release and there are no clear signs as to what our viable roles will be - thanks to the BW4 changes and on-going issues.
| Lust | Level 60 Guardian Fighter 15.8k GS|
Compared to directly taking hits it's not as effective of an alternative, and my point was simply in respect to Sentinel and threat. I suppose what you say does hold some weight (at a sacrifice compared to BW3), but purely from a DPS perspective. In regards to balance, the devs need to take multiple builds into consideration.
| Lust | Level 60 Guardian Fighter 15.8k GS|
So use 1 of two class feature slots and 2 of 3 encounter slots to get our mechanic working properly; leaving 1 class feature and 1 encounter left to play with?
Extinction - GWF
I was about to respond with this.
Compare this to the CW whose mechanic not only makes an encounter much stronger, it also allows them to have 4 encounter abilities slotted.
This is what scares me the most, the fact that Open Beta is two weeks away and they're testing this many "tweaks" so close to "Official Release"
Steadfast Determination and Destroyer's Purpose (You now gain Determination by dealing damage, and Unstoppable also increases your damage by 25%) are both extremely lackluster. For being the end trait in the Destroyer Tree, the Determination gain from Destroyer's Purpose is pathetic and also Steadfast Determination requires 3 wasted power points and it's just as bad. Both abilities regen a tiny sliver of your overall Determination bar and it seriously looks like it's like a 1%-2% tick of increase per second, that's way to low / slow.
Yes, and I listed this in my original post.
This is actually something I was running with until I found out how stupid it was wasting all those slots just to have my Determination mechanic working decently. After that I went with some more actually fun / DPS moves. My one suggestion would be at least increase the Determination gain from Destroyer's Purpose and also give GWF other Determination increasing modifications in the other two trait trees to keep things competitive.
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
There is a difference between constructive criticism and inneffectual whining. The valid points have already been made and this thread needs to be closed. These petitions and people freaking out with "Zomgwaffleblar the BW3 GWF was like a hobo on bath salts and the bw4 gwf is like a kitten covered in nutella!?!" are unneccesary and are not constructive. Now the post that actually describe the positives and negatives of this patch without embelishment and bias are helpful.
Valid points:
GWF has had a significant reduction in damage versus other classes.
One paragon path seems to be more effective while others seem almost broken.
The GWF is still able to function in pvp but is not decimating foes like it once did.
The GWF needs a Scythe skin for the class <---- best point so far.
With proper skill and inventory you can level and succeed in both pvp and pve thus the class is not broken.
Other than that, this discussion needs more numbers and valid reasoning rather then crying and coddling. We are all (should be) avid DnD players, we are better then this.
I don't see any comments that are threatening, immature or extreme in this thread. There are a group of people voicing concerns after a round of heavy handed changes that have hurt the potential viability of this class. Look at my signature you can see what class I am passionate about in this game.
The GWF as far as I have played which is mid 30's is really starting to have an identity crisis. His dps is dropping far too low on all but weenie packs of monsters with no elites. You get a pack with an elite or two and its insane how much they punish you. Sure you can spec defensive but you still take hits like a champ and lose far too many hps and don't do enough damage back to get enemies down.
I think there was too many nerfs all at once and this class if feeling weak.
Extinction - GWF