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Cleric Self-Heals are NOT going to be changed

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  • babylonbabylon Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ranncore wrote: »
    Devs have already stated that Cleric self heals are, in fact, going to be changed

    They said the self-heals would remain low. This means the cleric will still struggle, unless other benefits are added to the cleric to compensate for the nerfing of their class feature. Which I'm prepared to say right now isn't going to happen. They are happy with the direction of the cleric nerf.
    THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
  • darvien19darvien19 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 68
    edited March 2013
    As i've said in other threads, what need to be changed?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHeccW5e_7s&feature=youtu.be lvl 52 instance... sure the aggro was intense and you of course die .. but what mmo does a healer class not get aggro?

    i for one see no need to change a thing... but that is much my own opinion.. i play healer class in every MMO i've played .. i like the challenge and this game will test it .. looking forward to release
  • babylonbabylon Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    darvien19 wrote: »
    As i've said in other threads, what need to be changed?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHeccW5e_7s&feature=youtu.be lvl 52 instance... show me where the cleric needs help .. like i said b4 learn to play the class

    I watched that, and the rogues hardly ever took damage, while the cleric kept dying and needing help.

    That's enough info right there to show how unbalanced cleric combat now is. Rogue is easy mode by comparison. You should probably stop posting that video unless you're wanting a nerf.
    THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
  • angrynordangrynord Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    That is the most ridiculous answer i have ever heard: were not gonne balance the class because the class gets to much gold.. wtf is that. When you think of mmo and balance you cant really think about the gold as a factor. ALL mmos have some classes that are WAY better in making gold than some other class. And the fact that they say this just tells me they just want to make the most money of this game as they can and will keep milking it and not bother with actually making the game better, unless you pay for the game. Was thinking of trying this game after the beta as a Healer. But not anymore.
  • l1zardo1l1zardo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    They want you to have to pot once in awhile, instead of before where you only potted if you really, really f'd up... but usually never.

    To judge any of this with the aggro bug is just silly. World combat was completely fine. If it wasn't for you, then you were using the wrong skills. DPS mitigates incoming damage very well, and clerics have rocking AoEs
  • kaias2kaias2 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    The problem is not the selfheal...the problem is the ton of aggro that we trigger

    so :

    1- they fix the aggro (add more aggro for the tank, lower aggro from the heal, whatever)
    2- we are not focused anymore by the boss + all the fu**ing minions in the dungeon
    3- ???
    4- profits, you don't need to heal yourself, so dont care about the debuff...
  • duck2013duck2013 Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    wow...

    i am glad i did not pre-order or buy a founders pack...

    talk about totally ruining the one class i actually liked in this game...

    guess i'll return once i get tired of defiance... at least there i had a ton of fun, even with the current bugs...


    also, who cares that the clerics would earn more gold? gold is not useful for anything in this game, but buying potions anyways....
    --- I loved clerics in this game --- <--- My youtube video. [R.I.P good cleric now they nerfed our self healing by 50%]
    Look forward to my long campaigns and short stories in the foundry upon release.

    Join our awesome stream community for neverwinter on twitch
  • duck2013duck2013 Member Posts: 100 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    here's a fix.

    return cleric healing to where it was

    make clerics sell potions at 1/3rd price, and buy at double...
    --- I loved clerics in this game --- <--- My youtube video. [R.I.P good cleric now they nerfed our self healing by 50%]
    Look forward to my long campaigns and short stories in the foundry upon release.

    Join our awesome stream community for neverwinter on twitch
  • l1zardo1l1zardo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Who cares is you need to pot now like everyone else. You can still build a very accomplished healer/mitigation/buffer

    Or be very good at AoE.

    2 heal skills are enough to not need pots in open world content. Potting on bosses is ok, I expect it, and they are trying to balance that accordingly.
  • babylonbabylon Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    In solo it's not enough damage or heals to get by - having the heal skills equipped means you don't do enough damage, and don't have good enough heals to heal the all damage you've taken while you were slooowly killing the mobs; having the damage skills equipped means you STILL don't do enough damage compared to a real DD (and don't have the defense of a tank who is equally gimpy damage-wise but has a ton more defense), and also have to rely only on potting - both mean you have to pot more than any other class. In group play the cleric needs another cleric so they get some healing too.

    Clerics only get two dodges in a row, CWs get 4, so there's only so much dodging we can do in a tight spot.

    The self-heals need to be fixed.
    THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
  • the1tiggletthe1tigglet Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 1
    edited March 2013
    diothaigh wrote: »
    What some people aren't taking into account is that the healing done by spells such as Forgemaster's Flame is -not- nerfed by the trait. Yes, Healing word/Bastion of health are, but FF isn't - and that may be where the balance comes in to play.

    I think a 25% nerf to self-heals is sufficient, but the present 75% is absolutely bat**** crazy without some form of invulnerability spell.

    I absolutely agree, not only did the tooltip say the wrong amount (50%) but it was 75% reduction that's extreme! It literally took me all of my full action points healing beam all three word of healing and an AOE solar wave to heal back from 50% hitpoints and people think that's normal???
  • frost168frost168 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Based on their explanation that clerics are being nerfed due to the fact that we have more gold than other classes due to our ability to self heal, I fully expect Trickster Rogues to get the nerf bat, due to their ability to level 2x-3x faster than any other class. That is simply not fair either. Their ability to do so much damage, thereby killing the mobs faster, reducing their need to use pots, is broken and needs to be addressed.

    But this won't happen, because it's very apparent that the trickster rogue is the "darling" class of the devs and any class that may begin to infringe on the rogue being the "power" class, superior in every way, will be dealt with, with the nerf bat.

    Being able to level 2x-3x faster, killing mobs faster, means more money than any other class. Also note the complaints about the Rogue. Their QQ's are "it's not fair, it's harder to kill clerics in PvP because they heal themselves" Cleric's self heals were nerfed due to pvp and their "darling" class not being able to steam roll them in pvp.
  • l1zardo1l1zardo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I absolutely agree, not only did the tooltip say the wrong amount (50%) but it was 75% reduction that's extreme! It literally took me all of my full action points healing beam all three word of healing and an AOE solar wave to heal back from 50% hitpoints and people think that's normal???

    All three of those are failboat for in-combat use (although HW can be feathered in while moving/flanking when dps is on cd)

    As for Babs saying we don't have the dps .... my AoE at L34 was critting 2550. Even normal div+daunting was enough to drop any non-commander unit. The drop forgemaster on commander which will keep you from dying no matter what.

    Then you Brand + Sacred Flame (for temp hp) and either HW or slot another dps like Chains (which roots)

    With that spell you can: Daunting, then root, dps, then dodge, then div_forge, dps, dodge. Always stay within 15' range for the heal effect.

    I wish people would work a decent playstyle and skill choice before bashing classes and making all these extreme statements.

    Yes aggro was borked, yes there was easily ways for a party to compensate. Did they? Only the smart ones. My ping was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all Sat night/Sun morning so I AoE/quest farmed. I also took down those Legion elite dudes faster than the rogues, and rogues need to use like 6+ pots. (the Helms Hold rune event) I averaged about 120s per kill

    If you read these class forums you would know all this, and also know to go full recovery for gear, then crit. Take +HP% + Heal% + Rec% + Crit% for feats, maybe go Repurpose Soul for 15% heals of crit damage (mildly bugged atm and only proc from at-wills). I went Armor pen for t4 and geared 9% by paragon lv

    Also always try and have a good weapon at your level. You get a 'free' blue at 20 from vendor, then Lion seals. Hope you get a drop or kickin +3 within 5lv after that.
  • l1zardo1l1zardo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I don't even have one of these either .....

    5/5 Deepstone Blessing (T1 Divine Path) - 10% extra healing to targets with temp HP

    5/5 Linked Spirit (T2 Divine Path) - 10s buff of 5% of your stats to heal targets. Increases effectiveness with more targets

    5/5 Power of Life (T3 Divine Path) - Astral Seal +10% Heal, Sacred Flame +10% Temp HP

    5/5 Moontouched (T4 Divine Path) - Hallowed ground heals 5% of max HP of party every 3 seconds

    5/5 Mark of Mending (T4 Divine Path) +5% to Healer's Lore passive, 5% of Recovery -> Power
  • babylonbabylon Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    l1zardo1 wrote: »
    As for Babs saying we don't have the dps .... my AoE at L34 was critting 2550.

    That's nothing compared to what the real DPS (rogue) can do - just with regular fast attacks. That aoe has a long cooldown. Cleric without self-heals is nothing more than an extremely weak DPS, and because they take mobs down so much slower than a real DPS, they spend more time taking hits and need to pot far more than anyone else - when the two dodges run out nothing you can do if you're surrounded by spawned adds.
    THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
  • daed76daed76 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    l1zardo1 wrote: »
    Who cares is you need to pot now like everyone else. You can still build a very accomplished healer/mitigation/buffer

    Or be very good at AoE.

    2 heal skills are enough to not need pots in open world content. Potting on bosses is ok, I expect it, and they are trying to balance that accordingly.

    yeah have to pot constantly and have the lowest damage..gg
  • falchoinfalchoin Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 386 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2013
    l1zardo1 wrote: »
    ... 2 heal skills are enough to not need pots in open world content. Potting on bosses is ok, I expect it, and they are trying to balance that accordingly.

    So cleric self healing was nerfed by ~75% and the devs still didn't accomplish their goal of clerics needing to use pots while solo during normal content?

    What was the point of nerfing cleric self heals again?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • l1zardo1l1zardo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    One spell was not bugged, hence why it didn't matter.

    As for AoE. A rogue cannot generate that much AoE dps in the size of an area that a DC can.

    I'm done trying to help and to explain.

    Also judging a class by a completely bugged weekend .... You think that will be the release state? The devs know, we know lol
  • babylonbabylon Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    l1zardo1 wrote: »
    As for AoE. A rogue cannot generate that much AoE dps in the size of an area that a DC can.

    You don't need aoe as a rogue, the mobs fall down so fast you just don't get hit by any of them, because you're moving around taking them out too quickly to take any damage.
    THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
  • sebillesangraelsebillesangrael Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I think if the CFO of PerfectWorld was listening he would pay heed to the healer's concerns.

    I hear a giant sucking sound as all of the money of Neverwinter is drained off in a giant WHOOOSH.... Bye Bye $$$

    No Healers = no way to complete endgame content = end of story.

    The problem is that DEV's could care less about the bottom line.

    They should be careful about nerfing healing as it affects everything regarding endgame content and play.

    When all of the players/healers hit the endgame content and then defect to other games in droves the player base will drop off mightily.
  • l1zardo1l1zardo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    AoE isn't needed by a rogue... but I do it far better, and drop 10 mobs far quicker.

    Of course they single target quicker, and I have great heals. Its called balance >.>

    http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?107311-Combat-AMA-with-Lead-Combat-Designer-Kevin-Stocker&p=1516821&viewfull=1#post1516821

    Maybe read this and see what their intentions are, and what they are aware of.

    A very strong healer build can be made, they just don't want that very same build to be able to facetank everything with addition to pots.... which no other class could do.
  • babylonbabylon Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Look, other classes simply do not need to pot as much as a Cleric, because the other classes did not have their class feature nerfed.

    No point lying about it, all the Clerics know this.
    THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
  • l1zardo1l1zardo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Its because of the bugs .... why argue about sh*t that will not be in the next beta?

    I have no idea what your powers are, your level, your gear choices. So its obvious there is not good reason to have this discussion.

    Maybe you can enlighten me on what your aim is ... lol

    The fact that I was able to kill the Pit fiend commander units without a heal pot in Helms Hold is enough for me to know that I am right, even in the bug ridden OBW3. Do you know how many a rogue would need? I was healing 600 per second and just keeping up with incoming damage (and avoiding the 3.5k breath)

    I could help you ... but it seems that is not what you are looking for, since everything has been repeated to an annoying degree already. Guess I just need to fraps some stuff next time >.> Not that evidence is what you are looking for...
  • babylonbabylon Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    They stated they are planning on keeping the self-heals low. The bugs made this worse, but removing the bugs still leaves self-heals in a terrible place, which the devs state they are happy about. In pvp Clerics are just a free kill. In solo play Clerics fail when compared to any other class, none of which have been nerfed nor require the presence of another of their class to make use of their own class feature (healing in the case of the Cleric). The Cleric has not been compensated with anything to make up for having their class feature pretty much rendered useless to themselves. The rest of what I need to say is in my OP, which you could've done me the favour of reading first before making a single post in this thread.
    THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
  • l1zardo1l1zardo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ^ read the bit where I do not potion spam at all..... your whole topic point

    Do I need them on boss fights, yes. Should I, yes.

    Was I completely unkillable the week before, yes.
  • babylonbabylon Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Do you need to spam pots more than any other class? Yes.

    End of your input, thanks though for playing.
    THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
  • l1zardo1l1zardo1 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    600 pts / sec * 12s potion CD + potion HP =

    7200 + 4000

    11,200 hp gained per 12s between heals and a pot. Its still very high HPS. 7200 when others need 2 pots to almost cover in the same period

    seriously ..... read my Helms Hold example again and ask a rogue how many they pop soloing those bosses.

    I have no idea how you read this and think 'we drink more'

    If you want any credibility at all (if you care) I would stop now

    If you bothered to read post 44,45 you would also know that there is a ton of +heals that you will have, that you do not currently have, if you spec Divinity path. All my heal numbers are from a f*cking dps build.

    How you potted constantly and died all the time is a wonder to me. I wanted to understand and help, but f*k it. You are just trolling now.

    Toad:

    HW is only for slight regen/top up between fights/healing ranged classes. It is our weakest spell. There are 2 that blow the doors off it, but it has its uses. Bastion sucks too lol, so does Sunburst.

    No one seems to be approaching this as an actual full healer build, and what numbers they can push. Guess what .. the devs are looking at that and reacting. I don't see anyone adding anything that can give a perspective from there.
  • toadoflickingtoadoflicking Member Posts: 168 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I really don't buy the "clerics have more money than everyone else" argument. Yes, cleric can heal themselves, but everyone else has something that helps them conserve health, too.

    Rogues do more single-target damage than anyone else, which means they kill things faster and, thus, need to use less potions.

    Guardian Fighters can block and have high defenses, which means they take less damage and, thus, need to use less potions.

    Wizards have control spells that allow them to make some mobs helpless while they're still whaling on them. Thus, they don't get hit as much as some others and need to use less potions.

    I don't really think that cleric healing is awesome enough to really worry about nerfing self-healing. It certainly helps, but Healing Word is no replacement for a Potion of Major Healing.
  • rkv13rkv13 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 217 Bounty Hunter
    edited March 2013
    I really don't buy the "clerics have more money than everyone else" argument. Yes, cleric can heal themselves, but everyone else has something that helps them conserve health, too.

    Rogues do more single-target damage than anyone else, which means they kill things faster and, thus, need to use less potions.

    Guardian Fighters can block and have high defenses, which means they take less damage and, thus, need to use less potions.

    Wizards have control spells that allow them to make some mobs helpless while they're still whaling on them. Thus, they don't get hit as much as some others and need to use less potions.

    I don't really think that cleric healing is awesome enough to really worry about nerfing self-healing. It certainly helps, but Healing Word is no replacement for a Potion of Major Healing.

    Conserving health and restoring health are very different.

    While a Rogue can kill things quickly and thus takes less hits, those few hits mean so much more because of his low defense and lack of healing, so they use a lot of potions.

    Guardian Fighters can block and have high defense, but have to lower their guard to do any real damage and that "real damage" is so low that they end up taking a lot of damage over their long battles anyway, so they use a lot of potions.

    Wizards can typically lock down a single enemy but with their low defense the other mobs (and there are always other mobs) get enough hits in to force them to use a lot of potions.

    Clerics heal while they're taking damage, and can heal back to full between fights for free if you wait half a minute, so they use less potions than anyone else.

    Money, while useless now, will have an effect once the full game is launched. Gear and consumables and much much more will be added. Therefore it makes complete sense to mitigate this advantage.
    8.jpg
  • babylonbabylon Member, Banned Users, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    rkv13 wrote: »
    While a Rogue can kill things quickly and thus takes less hits, those few hits mean so much more because of his low defense and lack of healing, so they use a lot of potions.

    Rogues do not use a lot of potions, even later, especially compared to what the Clerics need to use, and this starting really early in the game.

    Just need to watch the Rogue video to see this (watch how many times the healer goes down, then notice how that Rogue doesn't touch potions - he's perfectly happy letting the Cleric heal him, while the Cleric keeps dying). Not sure he even used ONE potion. And note he's using a Tank companion as well, doesn't even have a Cleric companion.

    Then watch this video of a Cleric soloing with a Cleric companion even, and watch use of potions, then at 54 mins to see what happens when a Cleric soloing gets a ton of adds. Potions all used, dodges all used, healing all used, BOOM down you go little Cleric! And that Cleric was only L41. AND had a Cleric companion to help heal her.
    THIS IS CLERIC AGGRO IN BW3
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