The 75% debuff was way way way way way overdone and if they are going to keep it that way..they are officially crazy and as much as they say they want the game to succeed and need feedback..then go and say it's working as intended with the feedback they've received..again...they are crazy. For a cleric to heal itself full out of combat you need to have hots running, a potion, a portable altar just to keep going. If your near a fire run back and stand in the fire is more efficient...and that's working as intended? good lord..at least get rid of the debuff out of combat ffs. They can not honestly sit there and with as many videos of each class are out there and the feedback they've received and say yup..working good because clerics won't have as much gold anymore that they barely will use anyhow.
Here's the thing. If they want to do something like this and get rid of the "traditional" heal class..then start with a 30% debuff on heals..I'de even go as far as say 50%. If someone wants to go dps as a cleric then they retain that 50% self heal debuff..if they want to go as a healing cleric with talents then put in talents that reduce the self healing debuff to **** near 0. If they want to go in as a support cleric then they can take both talents and reduce it up to 25% while retaining some dps. It's a give and take situation..but to force people into a 75% self-healing debuff is absurd to say the least just because you want to make a few extra bucks off the cash shop..because those extra bucks will go away anyhow. You'de think in 2013 with as many MMO's that have come on to the market and either failed or succeeded..that a company would throw away this way of thinking but apparently not.
I fear they will simply use the non bugged version of the self healing reduce next and blame any feedback so far on the bug. The true concerns, like the lack of real healing for groups or the problem with self healing reduction in pvp will be ignored. Also I think I read that they did buff healing companions in BW3(I havent played before BW3 so I dont know).
So in the end even clerics will probably get a healing companion since he does a better job than we do. Especially with any form a self healing reduction.
In the end the they are probably comparing data from a tank with a BW2 healing companion to a non bugged BW3 cleric and think thats fine. So far 50 was the max lvl that means nobody has reached end game content. How are we supposed to heal a raid dungeon? And is this potion addiction really good gameplay?
They are just using the same system as GW2. Unfortunately with the same mistakes GW2 made (ok not entirely, we do have a tank with taunt at least). In the end people want some group dynamic and true support. NWO will attract many DND fans and DND always has been a team game. They dont seem to realize that the crowd they are trying to attract actually wants healing and support. We are not a shooter community and even in some shooters there are better healers than in NWO.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I had zero issues keeping people healed up, but most of the time it was me getting attacked anyways lol. At L50 your party healing ability gets quite a bit better w/ Astral Shield. By then you also have a bunch of Paragon feats that you can put into Div if you wanna be a leet healer.
I was only lvl 26 so if it gets better I am glad to hear it. But in the end I fear clerics are reduced to provide some sustain. They can patch up minor injuries and and help with stray hits. But if someone fails to dodge a bigger hit he has to use a pot.
In the end it feels a bit like everybody for himself. While a guardian fighter has more chance of helping someone, by taunting or even reducing the dmg of a single enemy with his 1v1 challenge a cleric can't do much (at least in the first half of the game). Every player is responsible for looking after his own health, dodging and using pots. It doesnt feel like much of a team game and more like a group of solo players that are accidently hitting the same mob.
I do like the game in general, it does have a dnd feeling. But they really screwed up the cleric in my opinion.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
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surixurientMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I actually wish there was a true healer. In the first mmo I played I was a cleric who literally had no attack spells (besides the weak get away from me kind of slap spell you'd use if a minor mob aggroed on you). Soloing was not an option unless you fought in the few dungeons that had only undead mobs (which are hurt by healing) But the heals and buffs were so powerful that every group needed you, it was never a problem to find a group to leech off of. Isn't that how clerics are suppose to be? Whats with this 'every class should be an island unto himself' theory that plagues modern mmos?
I had zero issues keeping people healed up, but most of the time it was me getting attacked anyways lol. At L50 your party healing ability gets quite a bit better w/ Astral Shield. By then you also have a bunch of Paragon feats that you can put into Div if you wanna be a leet healer.
Good to hear. That said your first sentence I was going to say... "Well once you stop taking a beating and others do, can you keep up with heals?"
I actually wish there was a true healer. In the first mmo I played I was a cleric who literally had no attack spells (besides the weak get away from me kind of slap spell you'd use if a minor mob aggroed on you). Soloing was not an option unless you fought in the few dungeons that had only undead mobs (which are hurt by healing) But the heals and buffs were so powerful that every group needed you, it was never a problem to find a group to leech off of. Isn't that how clerics are suppose to be? Whats with this 'every class should be an island unto himself' theory that plagues modern mmos?
The Cleric in D&D is certainly not a healbot with no attack spells, first of all. And the whole idea of healers being an absolute requirement for parties, and of healers absolutely requiring a party, severely limits playability for everyone. That's why in those MMOs healers were so underpopulated (in my experience), and why modern mmo's are pulling away from that system.
Cleric will always be a requirement. If you watched the Twitch streams with Zeke the lead designer, he said that you will need a DC and GF for late content.
What they are tying to do is make a class that people want to play. One that is engaging, can go out and solo just fine, one that has to work in dps to the party plan in order to generate Divinity.
I know there are a ton of people complaining about Clerics "and how they will never play one" , but I also know there are 20 people to each 1 that are stoked to play that class as their main.
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sephereMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Well, I certainly don't want to play one, if it can't even do what's it's supposed to do properly, which is heal,
even it's just self heal that's been broken, it's the main feature of the class.
It's totally asinine that they think that's acceptable, well fine,
I just won't bother playing one, then.
Why gimg self heals, anyway, if cleric gets hit,
it doesn't matter if they can heal themselves, they are still fragile like paper,
and add cast time, plus root while casting feature, and well...
"Well once you stop taking a beating and others do, can you keep up with heals?"
That's a fair point, and one that can be posed to those claiming the Cleric class to be broken. In BW3, Clerics absolutely could not do anything without aggroing the entire room, so how can anyone actually attest to the balance of self-heals in a group setting under such stilted circumstances?
And yes, you're right that we can't really know where our team-healing capabilities truly stand for the very same reason. We'll have to wait for the next beta and further until release to make any legitimate judgments.
That's a fair point, and one that can be posed to those claiming the Cleric class to be broken. In BW3, Clerics absolutely could not do anything without aggroing the entire room, so how can anyone actually attest to the balance of self-heals in a group setting under such stilted circumstances?
And yes, you're right that we can't really know where our team-healing capabilities truly stand for the very same reason. We'll have to wait for the next beta and further until release to make any legitimate judgments.
You couldn't in BWE3, but BWE2 didn't have that issue. You could then judge the heals more in that manner.
Here's an excellent video of L33 gameplay resulting in a wipe - link
Someone linked an earlier part of these videos attempting to prove Clerics have no trouble at all with the self-heal situation. This is the last video in that gameplay session (the wipe).
Everyone including the Cleric (or almost everyone, think one of the other guys has something else) is using a Cleric companion as well. The Cleric's self-heals are coming from his companion.
It's also worth noting the post date of the linked video, March 12th. That would mean BWE2. The cleric self healing nerf wasn't until BWE3 so they failed despite the "OP" self healing from BWE2 and 8 second potion cooldown timers.
I am still committed to playing a cleric and while in BW2 it was a lot easier to play. I enjoyed the cleric in BW3 since it was more challenging. I take into account that I was seriously bugged so when I aggroed the room I just chuckled and gave it all to stay alive and keep the healing up. Once they fix the bugs I will see how the final version of the cleric plays.
I did not go beyond L30 so I cannot judge how that is but playing a cleric is a whole lot different than just being your regular healbot and that pulled me in and made me stay.
I am still committed to playing a cleric and while in BW2 it was a lot easier to play. I enjoyed the cleric in BW3 since it was more challenging.
I am with you in that, BWE2 was way too easy and BWE3 was much more challenging. Now they need to get the classes working right and then adjust the baddies to give us a proper challenge. That's what game design is all about.
Comments
Here's the thing. If they want to do something like this and get rid of the "traditional" heal class..then start with a 30% debuff on heals..I'de even go as far as say 50%. If someone wants to go dps as a cleric then they retain that 50% self heal debuff..if they want to go as a healing cleric with talents then put in talents that reduce the self healing debuff to **** near 0. If they want to go in as a support cleric then they can take both talents and reduce it up to 25% while retaining some dps. It's a give and take situation..but to force people into a 75% self-healing debuff is absurd to say the least just because you want to make a few extra bucks off the cash shop..because those extra bucks will go away anyhow. You'de think in 2013 with as many MMO's that have come on to the market and either failed or succeeded..that a company would throw away this way of thinking but apparently not.
It unfortunately was bugged, like the 'aggro adjustment' they also did with Clerics.
Since they didn't get any data from us on the 50%, I can only presume they 'are ok' because its already in the CB build.
2 different game builds, and I do wonder which one they are referring to during interviews sometimes ......
So in the end even clerics will probably get a healing companion since he does a better job than we do. Especially with any form a self healing reduction.
In the end the they are probably comparing data from a tank with a BW2 healing companion to a non bugged BW3 cleric and think thats fine. So far 50 was the max lvl that means nobody has reached end game content. How are we supposed to heal a raid dungeon? And is this potion addiction really good gameplay?
They are just using the same system as GW2. Unfortunately with the same mistakes GW2 made (ok not entirely, we do have a tank with taunt at least). In the end people want some group dynamic and true support. NWO will attract many DND fans and DND always has been a team game. They dont seem to realize that the crowd they are trying to attract actually wants healing and support. We are not a shooter community and even in some shooters there are better healers than in NWO.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
In the end it feels a bit like everybody for himself. While a guardian fighter has more chance of helping someone, by taunting or even reducing the dmg of a single enemy with his 1v1 challenge a cleric can't do much (at least in the first half of the game). Every player is responsible for looking after his own health, dodging and using pots. It doesnt feel like much of a team game and more like a group of solo players that are accidently hitting the same mob.
I do like the game in general, it does have a dnd feeling. But they really screwed up the cleric in my opinion.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
Good to hear. That said your first sentence I was going to say... "Well once you stop taking a beating and others do, can you keep up with heals?"
The Cleric in D&D is certainly not a healbot with no attack spells, first of all. And the whole idea of healers being an absolute requirement for parties, and of healers absolutely requiring a party, severely limits playability for everyone. That's why in those MMOs healers were so underpopulated (in my experience), and why modern mmo's are pulling away from that system.
What they are tying to do is make a class that people want to play. One that is engaging, can go out and solo just fine, one that has to work in dps to the party plan in order to generate Divinity.
I know there are a ton of people complaining about Clerics "and how they will never play one" , but I also know there are 20 people to each 1 that are stoked to play that class as their main.
even it's just self heal that's been broken, it's the main feature of the class.
It's totally asinine that they think that's acceptable, well fine,
I just won't bother playing one, then.
Why gimg self heals, anyway, if cleric gets hit,
it doesn't matter if they can heal themselves, they are still fragile like paper,
and add cast time, plus root while casting feature, and well...
That's a fair point, and one that can be posed to those claiming the Cleric class to be broken. In BW3, Clerics absolutely could not do anything without aggroing the entire room, so how can anyone actually attest to the balance of self-heals in a group setting under such stilted circumstances?
And yes, you're right that we can't really know where our team-healing capabilities truly stand for the very same reason. We'll have to wait for the next beta and further until release to make any legitimate judgments.
You couldn't in BWE3, but BWE2 didn't have that issue. You could then judge the heals more in that manner.
I only got in by BW3, so I can't speak on the matter.
It's also worth noting the post date of the linked video, March 12th. That would mean BWE2. The cleric self healing nerf wasn't until BWE3 so they failed despite the "OP" self healing from BWE2 and 8 second potion cooldown timers.
I did not go beyond L30 so I cannot judge how that is but playing a cleric is a whole lot different than just being your regular healbot and that pulled me in and made me stay.
That are my thoughts I wanted to share
I am with you in that, BWE2 was way too easy and BWE3 was much more challenging. Now they need to get the classes working right and then adjust the baddies to give us a proper challenge. That's what game design is all about.