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I've said it before, but now with more reason
elminban
Member Posts: 187 Arc User
I have quoted. copy paste, what have you tyhis before but I am doing so again.
Clerics are battle leaders who are invested with divine power. They blast foes with magical prayers, bolster and heal companions, and lead the way to victory with a mace in one hand and a holy symbol in the other. Clerics run the gamut from humble servants of the common folk to ruthless enforcers of evil gods.
Now I am going to paste a illustration of the Cleric powers tab.
This gentleman is holding a mace and a symbol. This reinforces the core rules of 4e we see above, which seem to be continually misconstrued here. There is no solid evidence that we should be restricted so in Neverwinter other than Cryptic says so. And even they are using the full range of 4e rules to help sell their product to us as the illustration above displays.
Clerics are battle leaders who are invested with divine power. They blast foes with magical prayers, bolster and heal companions, and lead the way to victory with a mace in one hand and a holy symbol in the other. Clerics run the gamut from humble servants of the common folk to ruthless enforcers of evil gods.
Now I am going to paste a illustration of the Cleric powers tab.
This gentleman is holding a mace and a symbol. This reinforces the core rules of 4e we see above, which seem to be continually misconstrued here. There is no solid evidence that we should be restricted so in Neverwinter other than Cryptic says so. And even they are using the full range of 4e rules to help sell their product to us as the illustration above displays.
Post edited by elminban on
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Cryptic has chosen to do the Cleric in this way. Don't like it?
[SELF REMOVED]
In the end, it is what it is. You've made your point. Thank you, now adjust to it, wait for it to change, or move on.
Than you have probably missed my point. That point being you cannot use the excuse that Cryptic is simply going by 4e rules and they will release a battle cleric that will wield a mace. Everyone has to accept that Crpytic is going by Crpytic's version of the rules. I do not plan to cave in on anything. As you see below to help reinforce my statement all Clerics should have access to simple melee weapons. Not only a battle cleric that may or may not come into play later. There is a bit of poetic justice, irony, whatever you wish to call it, that a fanboy may overlook or get defensive about with the cleric in their illustration holding a mace. I suppose that is where I could become the jerk in this argument. I do not even plan to play a cleric I plan to play a wizard.
■Role: Leader. You lead by shielding your allies with your prayers, healing, and using powers that improve your allies' attacks.
■Power Source: Divine. You have been invested with the authority to wield divine power on behalf of a deity, faith, or philosophy.
■Key Abilities: Wisdom, Strength, Charisma
■Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail
■Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
■Implement: Holy Symbol
■Bonus to Defense: +2 Will
■Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Personally, I'm glad the Devoted Cleric is ranged and wouldn't have it any other way. With the current class selection, it's pretty obvious they needed to implement a ranged Cleric class. 3/5 of the classes are melee.
I don't understand why some of you are so infatuated with holding a mace to the point that you seemingly can't even enjoy the current Cleric.
Are you kidding? You cannot understand why someone who wants to play a melee character would be less happy playing a ranged character? I have played my melee cleric D&D character for over thirty years starting with pen and paper and working up through the gold box games, Baldor's Gate etc., EQ, EQ2, DDO, DAOC, Vanguard, among many others with a plan to maybe do so in NWO. I have a base set of several characters that I do variations of from pen and paper to online and single-player games. If Cryptic wants to completely leave it out but still claim their game is D&D 4E than they can make the game they want to, but they should either do eventually all the character types or change their claim to "our game is done in the partial spirit of D&D 4E."
Thats flawed logic. Cryptic could never make a game identical to 4E rules. Its a video game. Its going to need tweeks here and there, along with sacrifices and painful decisions. According to your statement, Cryptic will ONLY be allowed to create a game done in partial spirit of D&D 4E. They could never achieve supreme glory and full angelic goodness.
To be fair Azrowaria, your option 'wait for it to change', you'd kind of have to be active about that right? garner community support, a rally point, make your voice heard, all of that stuff?
I'm just saying, I'm no fan of Spam, but honestly, I don't feel that is what what's being done here. I see a well thought out post, with additional information that he wanted to bring to bare on his argument. I really think these forums are the very place that this discussion should be had. Your call for 'post once' and forget about it, is pretty un-realistic, at least on this forum. There are other 'guild' forums that have strict 'one thread per topic' rules, but this one really has never been such a forum.
Let the man talk. He had points I was interested in hearing.
I actually really enjoyed playing the Cleric in it's current rendition, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be interested in Wielding a Mace. As a matter of fact, I don't remember a DnD game played where my Cleric didn't have his trusty Mace in one hand, Holy Symbol in the other.
zWolf / Wesgar
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Fair enough. My frustration is mostly at his Title... 'I've Said it Before...' If you've said it before, then go back to that post and continue your argument. Posting again on the same topic, but now with a picture is (to me) a bit redundant and spam'ish.
I just immediately took from the title (coming into the post) that 'hey, Im not happy with the results from the first time I posted, so now I want to cry about it again.' I might have jumped the gun on him, but Title of posts matter and can spark emotion before the thread is even read.
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Yeah I'm down with this.
Really, any campaign (even if it shares a setting) is going to have unique flavoring and styling. Your strength as a role player is to adapt and find your niche within it.
While we all enjoy specific things about D&D, you can't let your obsession with it become so overwhelming that you begin to think your taste defines D&D in its entirety.
What is a D&D Cleric?
Well it can be many things, and its definition has evolved constantly in D&D's tenure, this is just one such evolution. It's fine if you don't like it, but it is not correct to express that it isn't legitimate. The legitimacy of it, isn't determined by you. You don't own the brand. You never will.
It boggles my mind, some players can't grasp that.
I should state, that I don't think the OP is suggesting the Cleric in NWO isn't legitimate, only that he laments that it does not use a Mace. I am totally okay with that, where I get annoyed, is when people go beyond that to claim this is somehow now Dungeons & Dragons, due to pedantic quibbles like, "the Cleric doesn't use a mace".
It's when we, as nerds, cross that line of subjective taste, to making objective declarations, that we have no authority to make or claim. When our egos balloon to such colossal size, that we feel entitled to define the brand itself. That kind of hubris gets, quite frankly, very tiresome.
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1) The Cleric in Neverwinter is not the same as the Cleric in 4e. And a Battle Cleric will not solve this problem.
2) We also have to realize that by Cryptic's rules this is the cleric and we have good reason to follow their rules.
I want arguements to be base of these stardards on both sides. Okay, this is not the 4e Cleric, both sides understand that, however, it is the Cryptic cleric and we have to accept it for example.
The picture does raise the question as to why they did not say Hey illustrator, our cleric does not use a mace and a symbol, please take that out. Instead they used it. We should not turn the picture into a fallacy. This picture, to a degree, does undermind the idea for Cryptic and that cannot be overlooked.
Cleric: Devoted or Battle
Fighter: Guardian or Great Weapon
Paladin: Avenging or Protecting
Ranger: Archer or Two-Blade
Rogue: Trickster or Brawny
Warlock: Deceptive or Scourge
Warlord: Inspiring or Tactical
Wizard: Control or War
This is the basis for the first Player Handbook if I'm not mistaken. So, what about this makes you think that Battle Cleric won't be using a mace? Or won't be in the game, at all?
I understand your... frustration(?) with not having a mace, but it's not like you're the only one who's left out of this right now. We all want something right now (Two-Blades and War Wizard for me), but we have to be patient. You will get your Mace Wielding Cleric. Just not right now. So relax, and be patient. Devoted works how they want Devoted to work. Battle is the next Cleric class, so wait for it.
Arrows and Blades do not have names on them.
They are addressed, "To whom it may concern.."
Seriously? Dude you are trying waaaay too hard.. Now you're trying to make a comparison between Hitler and NW/Cryptic? This is just a game, not the Holocaust, so stfu and get over it.
As an aside, I've noticed a funny trend in this game.
The people looking forward to the Control Wizard were disappointed, but unexpectedly enjoyed the Devoted Cleric.
The people looking forward to the Devoted Cleric were disappointed, but unexpectedly enjoyed the Guardian Fighter.
The people looking forward to the Guardian Fighter were disappointed, but unexpectedly enjoyed the Trickster Rogue.
No one was disappointed by the Trickster Rogue because that class kicks ****ing ***, but a lot of the would-be rogues unexpectedly enjoyed the Control Wizard.
Anyways my point is that this game deviates from preconceived notions of class function and playstyle quite a bit. Branch out and you might be surprised by what you find. If you didn't enjoy the class you were looking forward to, you might be surprised to enjoy a class you didn't have any interest in.
Their lead designer, or someone with a similar job title, was recently interviewed on one of the gaming sites and he flat out said the game isn't based solely on 4th Ed. rules, they don't want to bottleneck themselves with a tabletop ruleset. They're taking stuff from all D&D lore, and adding their own flavor to it.
Frankly these threads of complaining the classes don't match *INSERT TABLETOP CLASS HERE* are getting old. This take on D&D is actually refreshing for myself, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Tabletop is a blast, I won't deny that, I've been participating in it on and off for about 20 years, but I'd really like to see a D&D MMO that isn't limited by trying to adhere to tabletop rules *COUGH* DDO *COUGH*.
Everyone needs to stop complaining about NWO because it doesn't follow *INSERT WHATEVER EDITION RULES HERE*, and just accept this particular D&D game for what it is, and offer feedback based on that, not some picture taken from a rulebook.
He wasn't comparing Hitler to Cryptic. Learn to reading comprehension. He was comparing negative judgement of 2 separate elements to demonstrate interpretation of perception. The judgement of elements is what he was comparing, not the subjects. He could have used any example: he chose Hitler to demonstrate the vast disparity that subjective perceptions can cause between human interpreters. It was clever but ultimately foolish, because as soon as you mention Hitler some people go off their rocker. There are other, better suited and less offensive examples he could have used. Nonetheless, controversial subjects shouldn't be avoided. Their discussion is integral to their understanding.
Exactly! And usually the posts that do it repeatedly inform everyone they've been playing D&D since the 1700s.
Your logic is even more flawed. You jump to the assumption that he wants this game identical to 4E rules.
When he and a lot of us just want it to be D&D. As this game is now it's more like duke nuke'm with a community. MMORPGs are about customization, of your character and your class. Cryptic locks you into one mold and thats it.
D&D is about chocie, here's the range of armor I can wear and here's whats available. Not, you're a cleric and all you can wear is chain. Here's a cleric and all you can wield is a holy symbol.....which by the way is hideous as sin and generic. Different gods have different holy symbols.
But that goes for all classes, they are all locked into one template. Thats not D&D, thats not even MMORPG. What cruptic has here is more like an MMOFPS.
Well as to what I've been preaching you have the wrong idea. The classes you list above are "suggestions" given by the game designers as to possible hybrid classes. They are not the rule, just examples of what you can do.
I'm talking about Cryptic completely taking away any choice. A 1st level cleric and on should have the CHOICE to wield a mace/hammer/any other blunt weapon I'm missing. That is what D&Ds all about. Then later when you decide to specialize you can choose that path.
Maybe that's what it's all about to you...but to me it's always been about getting together with a group of friends to roleplay, get into mischief, save the world, or just loot and plunder a dungeon; the weapons or armor were secondary.
And guess what I can do in NWO? Get together with a group of friends to roleplay, get into mischief, save the world, or just loot and plunder a dungeon.
Dont know about you but DDO has far better dungeon design than NW. That being said, if you dont use the rules then dont call it D&D. They can even just use a portion of it, but the basics needs to be implemented to keep it familiar. Right now it deviates too far from D&D.
Now im not so strict about rules, but they dont even give us a choice for character customization. Either follow the D&D rules or give us more freedom. Dont limit us with the rules that Cryptic creates AND call it D&D.
You should be glad knowing the Battle Cleric probably has a higher priority than a lot of other people's favorite classes, too. People who like barbarians, druids, etc. are likely going to be waiting a lot longer.
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A. See we created all these new classes for you, proof we are creating new content (even though they are just different specializations of the same class)
OR
B. See we created all of these new classes for you, now pay use $10 per class to play them.
And yes I am being a bit snarky. Waiting for the day to be over.
And since we're on the topic of subjective opinion:
I think DDO was pile of Troll dung. It makes me sad even thinking about it.
Not only do I believe some of the "dungeons" in NWO will be better, I believe some of my best friends will be the ones making them. The Foundry will ensure I get precisely the content I want, catered to me and my lousy subjective opinions.
And I can only scoff at the, "this isn't D&D because the Cleric doesn't use a mace" crowd. I mean really, try something new. D&D has always embraced creativity, rather than stubborn adherence to old rules. There aren't even rules in D&D, there are only guidelines, that's been pretty much its philosophy since the days of Caves of Chaos.
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Yes you are being a bit too snarky. Although Cryptic did a lot of things wrong they also deserve some credit. Like the combat/settings/lore were great.
They dont have to give us 100% freedom. Choosing what weapon to use and give us distinctive feats is also ok. So far I have seen feats like this: "Give your blabla skill 3/5/8/10% more dmg" Or "give your clone 3/6/9/12/15% more hp." More creativity please? Like passives: every 5th hit stun your opponents for 0.5s. Or when out of combat for 5s you have increased movement speed.
Now I havent payed a lot of attention to the feats so I could be wrong but from my memory all those feats were alike.
There will be lots of great dungeons created from the foundry but from what I have seen it has its limitations. Like multiple ways to finish a quest, not many different traps. But lets wait till the NDA has been lift and after the launch when the foundry is crowded with dungeons. We dont know exactly what the foundry is capable of...or not.
I'm just saying it is more beneficial for them not to give us the freedom than it does to give us that freedom. Both financially and from an appearance of productivity point. Also DnD is a franchise not just a PnP RPG now, and has been for YEARS. Thus the reason for the following games:
Castle Ravenloft (A 4E rules lite dungeon crawl board game)
Wrath of Ashardelon (A 4E rules lite dungeon crawl board game)
Legend of Drizzt (A 4E rules lite dungeon crawl board game)
Dungeon Command (A 4E rules lite tactical combat board game)
Lords of Waterdeep (a Euro, and one of the top boardgames of 2012)
Conquest of Nerrath (a Risk/Runewar like war game)
ALL of those are DnD and ALL of those have limited or no connection with the 4E rules. Again DnD is more than just the RPG now, it is a franchise in itself and as such embodies more than just the RPG rules. Heck they could yank out ALL of the 4E rules period, and as long as Hasbro-WotC gave them the naming rights it is part of the DnD stable of games, just as all the ones above now are.
I'm currently reading the War of the Spider Queen series...as I'm reading it, I don't have dice tumbling in my head or complain that tabletop rules aren't followed. There is more to D&D than rules and regulations...usually the people that think D&D is all about rules and absolute freedom are the ones that started playing during 3rd edition.
Not really any point in discussing this type of stuff anyway, these types of complaints really don't help the current state of the game that is launching within a few months. They aren't going to completely redesign their class system based on a few disgruntled post each week by people who think D&D should be exactly what they expect it to be.
D&D professes time and time again that it's not important to follow the rules. In fact, it also stresses time and time again, that they are really guidelines not hard fast rules and you are OPENLY encouraged to find your own unique variant/hybrid within any system they present.
You know what one of the loosest (and also funnest) sessions I ever played in? A session where a guy named Sean Reynolds was the DM.
This idea that strict adherence to rules is what defines D&D, is a crock. It's NOT objective thinking. It's subjective thinking, it's actually the worst kind of subjective thinking, it's the kind of subjective thinking that gets so riddled with ePeen and ego, it then gets broadcast as an objective point of view.
D&D is constantly evolving, and offers a myriad of systems, rules and mediums in which to play the game. You can, indeed, call yourself D&D and not have a Cleric wield a mace. That's not opinion, that's just objective fact.
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