xdreeganxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Okay, so what I'm getting is, you want to be a Devote Cleric. But instead of using a symbol as your weapon, you want to use a Mace. Basically? So you want an artificial choice on what your character "uses". I hope if you wish for this, you understand and know for a fact it'll probably be a while until that happens. The foundation of the game needs to be built, tested, and working properly on many levels before you can change your Symbol skin to a Mace skin. Hopefully you understand that this is something you'll have to deal with. Your Devoted Cleric won't be able to actually wield the Mace like a Mace until waayyyyy wayyyyy down the line. If it ever happens at all.
As for as the "Deviation from the 4thE ruleset"... that's probably the worst argument I've ever heard. If you look at each ruleset created in their own timeline, each "ruleset" had deviations from the previous one. Hell even the 4th Ruleset by itself was a HUGE deviation from the others. So what's wrong with deviating again from the 4th and just using it as a baseline guideline for this game? It also smells slightly of hypocrisy. Deviations, expansions, and homebrew. All three of these concepts are what evolved D&D into what you play now. Besides being unfair, I find it quite silly that people would think that another deviation is bad for any reason at all. The reasons usually listed are.
The player doesn't agree with them on a personal level
The player wouldn't have done it that way, so therefore it's not good enough/wrong.
It didn't exist before being introduced in this game, and therefore isn't TRUE D&D. (As in it hasn't gone through the WoC testing, there is no purchasable book, or any other merchandise).
The system itself isn't good enough, because it's just getting started. (Kind of like a child expecting to know things that they shouldn't know or be able to do until later, when they have a foundation)
So silly. And honestly, it's been said before, but technically Cryptic is OUR DM. It's a very interesting view-point that I suggest everyone try to look through for the game. They control what we're able to do, equip, and our restrictions and limitation. Of course... building a 3D environment of quality, and implementing everything that it needs to be successful and at the very least functional takes some time. I just find it kind of sad that some players can't understand this, and that all good things take time. We all want something from this game that it doesn't -yet- offer. But I'm sure it's fair enough to not assume that it won't ever be. But let the developers nd design team focus on something a little more important right now. Getting the game ready to launch with what it needs to launch with. Not just what you WANT it to launch with.
Arrows and Blades do not have names on them.
They are addressed, "To whom it may concern.."
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hironsssMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
I'm currently reading the War of the Spider Queen series...as I'm reading it, I don't have dice tumbling in my head or complain that tabletop rules aren't followed. There is more to D&D than rules and regulations...usually the people that think D&D is all about rules and absolute freedom are the ones that started playing during 3rd edition.
Not really any point in discussing this type of stuff anyway, these types of complaints really don't help the current state of the game that is launching within a few months. They aren't going to completely redesign their class system based on a few disgruntled post each week by people who think D&D should be exactly what they expect it to be.
Which is why I said or give us more freedom im also ok with that. Even without D&D name they have lots to improve concerning customization. Asking for more choice of weapons is reasonable right? Nothing related to D&D right? Asking for distinctive feats. Also something that would make the game more varied. D&D or not, this game lacks customization. Compare it to other mmo, open world/instanced, RPG/Arpg or whatever catergory. Tons of BASIC freedom that isnt in the character creation.
This idea that strict adherence to rules is what defines D&D, is a crock. It's NOT objective thinking. It's subjective thinking, it's actually the worst kind of subjective thinking, it's the kind of subjective thinking that gets so riddled with ePeen and ego, it then gets broadcast as an objective point of view.
Uhuh, stick to arguments please. You dont see me calling people who doesnt agree with me are usually HAMSTER. I think you can discuss in a normal way without making assumptions about people right?
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hironsssMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
Okay, so what I'm getting is, you want to be a Devote Cleric. But instead of using a symbol as your weapon, you want to use a Mace. Basically? So you want an artificial choice on what your character "uses". I hope if you wish for this, you understand and know for a fact it'll probably be a while until that happens. The foundation of the game needs to be built, tested, and working properly on many levels before you can change your Symbol skin to a Mace skin. Hopefully you understand that this is something you'll have to deal with. Your Devoted Cleric won't be able to actually wield the Mace like a Mace until waayyyyy wayyyyy down the line. If it ever happens at all.
As for as the "Deviation from the 4thE ruleset"... that's probably the worst argument I've ever heard. If you look at each ruleset created in their own timeline, each "ruleset" had deviations from the previous one. Hell even the 4th Ruleset by itself was a HUGE deviation from the others. So what's wrong with deviating again from the 4th and just using it as a baseline guideline for this game? It also smells slightly of hypocrisy. Deviations, expansions, and homebrew. All three of these concepts are what evolved D&D into what you play now. Besides being unfair, I find it quite silly that people would think that another deviation is bad for any reason at all. The reasons usually listed are.
Im not the one wanting cleric with a mace. Im fine with following D&D, because it has proven itself on pc with BG1/2, Neverwinter 1/2, Icewind dale, DDO etc. That, OR give us freedom. This freedom doesnt have anything to do with D&D or what not. I like freedom in any rpg. Tons of D&D pc games "limited" by the D&D rules YET it has tons of more freedom and more fun than Neverwinter. Seems to ME something isnt right. While fun is subjective more freedom in other games is a fact.
Cryptic gives me the feeling of being lazy. Like streetfighter with only 3 moves per character. "Its a design choice this is how we wanted it to be" Thats the feeling Cryptic is giving to me.
So we just have to agree we have different opinion of what will make NW a better game. Im fine with that.
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xdreeganxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Im not the one wanting cleric with a mace. Im fine with following D&D, because it has proven itself on pc with BG1/2, Neverwinter 1/2, Icewind dale, DDO etc. That, OR give us freedom. This freedom doesnt have anything to do with D&D or what not. I like freedom in any rpg. Tons of D&D pc games "limited" by the D&D rules YET it has tons of more freedom and more fun than Neverwinter. Seems to ME something isnt right. While fun is subjective more freedom in other games is a fact. So we just have to agree we have different opinion of what will make NW a better game. Im fine with that.
Oh, I would never argue that fact. And I appreciate your opinion. However, my post was directed towards the OP (Something that I should've pointed out, just in case), but something the OP has done was cite D&D for this option. Not just wanting it for flavor, because we all want flavor. But using D&D to backup your argument is what's bringing this to a head.
Arrows and Blades do not have names on them.
They are addressed, "To whom it may concern.."
I can understand the desire for more, but I really just don't see that happening. I'd much rather have them working on releasing NEW class, like a Warhammer wielding battle-cleric, or an Arcane Trickster, or any of the other near-limitless classes available with D&D. Plenty of games out there offer what you're looking for, this one happens to not give you a choice of weapon or armor. If the other games are more fun than Neverwinter, the choice seems pretty clear!
Personally, I love this style of combat, I love the "holy trinity", I love classes being limited on weapons so people aren't nerd-raging because a rogue wants to use a staff or the tank would rather use a bow than a shield. If I didn't like this type of stuff, I would move on to something else, not try to change core features of a game already designed and near-complete (for now). There was a game that attempted to change their core mechanics, not once, but twice--that game was Star Wars Galaxies, and after they decided to completely change their base game's mechanics it BOMBED (no longer exists now).
Love Neverwinter for what it is, and provide realistic ways to make it better. Also, it's unrealistic to expect everything all at once. Their developers seem to be paying attention to what we have to say, look at the recent changes to Wizards. I'm sure if enough people ask for a melee cleric, we'll get one, but what they shouldn't do is completely redesign a core class (devoted cleric) to try and satisfy those requests.
I'm hoping to see a Monk, Assassin, Druid...What I'd REALLY love to see is the Stormlord. The game isn't even out yet, so who can really say what they have planned for classes...but I'm looking forward to seeing!
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited March 2013
Guys, can we clear this up? In the 4E rules, there are guidelines for two basic types of clerics. One cleric fights in the melee, old school mace and shield style. The other fights at ranged, using mostly holy attacks (with the holy symbol as their focus). That ranged cleric was lovingly named a "laser" cleric by the 4E fanbased, because it was imagined that instead of bashing things with a mace, the cleric was basically shooting holy lasers at people.
Right now, the Devoted Cleric is Cryptics take on the style of that cleric. IE, that's why they're holding a holy symbol, which in 4E is the focus (no pun intended) of the Devoted Cleric.
Now, are you still with me?
Do you know WHY they chose such a design element? So when they implement the battle cleric, which is your standard mace and shield cleric, there is a distinct difference between the two classes BOTH mechanically AND visually.
Now granted, it will take some time...but Neverwinter will ADD classes as it grows, and I can promised you the stereotypical mace wielding cleric will absolutely be one of those.
Guys, can we clear this up? In the 4E rules, there are guidelines for two basic types of clerics. One cleric fights in the melee, old school mace and shield style. The other fights at ranged, using mostly holy attacks (with the holy symbol as their focus). That ranged cleric was lovingly named a "laser" cleric by the 4E fanbased, because it was imagined that instead of bashing things with a mace, the cleric was basically shooting holy lasers at people.
Right now, the Devoted Cleric is Cryptics take on the style of that cleric. IE, that's why they're holding a holy symbol, which in 4E is the focus (no pun intended) of the Devoted Cleric.
Now, are you still with me?
Do you know WHY they chose such a design element? So when they implement the battle cleric, which is your standard mace and shield cleric, there is a distinct difference between the two classes BOTH mechanically AND visually.
Now granted, it will take some time...but Neverwinter will ADD classes as it grows, and I can promised you the stereotypical mace wielding cleric will absolutely be one of those.
So just relax. You'll get your mace.
Well said.
Everyone who wants all of this stuff NOW, just remember, the life of an MMO relies on new features OVER TIME. Don't expect everything anyone could possibly desire to be handed to you on day 1...after a couple months you'd have a ghost town.
Than you have probably missed my point. That point being you cannot use the excuse that Cryptic is simply going by 4e rules and they will release a battle cleric that will wield a mace. Everyone has to accept that Crpytic is going by Crpytic's version of the rules. I do not plan to cave in on anything. As you see below to help reinforce my statement all Clerics should have access to simple melee weapons. Not only a battle cleric that may or may not come into play later. There is a bit of poetic justice, irony, whatever you wish to call it, that a fanboy may overlook or get defensive about with the cleric in their illustration holding a mace. I suppose that is where I could become the jerk in this argument. I do not even plan to play a cleric I plan to play a wizard.
■Role: Leader. You lead by shielding your allies with your prayers, healing, and using powers that improve your allies' attacks.
■Power Source: Divine. You have been invested with the authority to wield divine power on behalf of a deity, faith, or philosophy.
■Key Abilities: Wisdom, Strength, Charisma
■Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail
■Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
■Implement: Holy Symbol
■Bonus to Defense: +2 Will
■Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + Constitution score
Hate to state the obvious but for years DM's have used the rules how they wanted to tell a story. Cryptic is THE DM allowing a few others to tell smaller stories. As far as clerics go or any other class, this isn't World of Warcraft that took the challenge out of the game on specialized characters and made it to where you could do damage, heal or deflect damage through shields.
Let them try their thing and see how it goes and don't hate on it too much. you say you wont even play one at launch so it shouldn't be too big of a deal besides a small troll session on the forums. The other classes will come as they see fit to add them. Let the game get to be released first with what they are planning first. Who knows, you might end up liking it!
So we just have to agree we have different opinion of what will make NW a better game. Im fine with that.
I have no problem with that. This is reasonable. I applaud this.
Note the difference here, note that this is a recognition that there are style choices made within the game that he does not like and nothing more.
There's no egotistical declaration that one's preferences actually define what the brand is in its entirety.
I have no argument with anyone who doesn't like the game, but I am dead tired of ePeen nerds proclaiming their observations are definitive and objective, and that they can define the brand based on them. In this case, this notion, that because NWO doesn't rigidly adhere to some rule book (which ironically makes it clear none of the rules need to be adhered to when you play), the game somehow violates D&D, or worse, isn't worthy to even be called D&D.
That's not objective thinking, it's just ego and it is not an insult to say so.
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I have no argument with anyone who doesn't like the game, but I am dead tired of ePeen nerds proclaiming their observations are definitive and objective, and that they can define the brand based on them. In this case, this notion, that because NWO doesn't rigidly adhere to some rule book (which ironically makes it clear none of the rules need to be adhered to when you play), the game somehow violates D&D, or worse, isn't worthy to even be called D&D.
I love it! Right there with you...it has been getting pretty irritating browsing through the forums the past few days since beta ended.
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hironsssMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
Plenty of games out there offer what you're looking for, this one happens to not give you a choice of weapon or armor. If the other games are more fun than Neverwinter, the choice seems pretty clear!
The choice that I should shut up and play other games? If I want to criticize the game I will do it. Regardless of something else.
Its not their style im having problem with, thats fine. Lots of games have that. But other games can create a cleric of their style WHILE MAINTAINING a great degree of freedom, varied skills and distinctive feats/paragon.
Their idea is fine but the execution, not so much.
Im one of the guys that whinne about a lot things in this game coz im a pnp player for some years now, i can understand most of ur points and i can understand cryptic choices but when i see cryptic or any of you saying this is a D&D base game is totally wrong coz it isnt, just using D&D IP nothing more.
That said i still think its a good game and i will play it for sure, the combat is amazing and im hoping cryptic make some deep changes to get it closer to pnp rules in future.
If only it were that simple! No, I don't expect that...generally the naysayers will frequent the forums pre-release, play for a couple weeks when the game launches, then move on to the next game to complain on their forums about why so-in-so's game is bad, will fail, isn't perfect, etc.
So yes, continue to complain about core mechanics that will most likely NEVER CHANGE.
Im one of the guys that whinne about a lot things in this game coz im a pnp player for some years now, i can understand most of ur points and i can understand cryptic choices but when i see cryptic or any of you saying this is a D&D base game is totally wrong coz it isnt, just using D&D IP nothing more.
That said i still think its a good game and i will play it for sure, the combat is amazing and im hoping cryptic make some deep changes to get it closer to pnp rules in future.
And here we go again! Another D&D veteran that feels if a game doesn't meet his definition of D&D it isn't D&D.
/give up
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hironsssMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
If only it were that simple! No, I don't expect that...generally the naysayers will frequent the forums pre-release, play for a couple weeks when the game launches, then move on to the next game to complain on their forums about why so-in-so's game is bad, will fail, isn't perfect, etc.
So yes, continue to complain about core mechanics that will most likely NEVER CHANGE.
Ahh...so you are one of those who gets angry if someone doesnt agree with you or criticize the game? Refrain from making assumptions about people. But Im not expecting you to do that and have a normal discussion. Just like you said. If only it were that simple!
Keep your way of thinking Im not going in discussion with you.
/give up
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steppenkatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Ahh...so you are one of those who gets angry if someone doesnt agree with you or criticize the game? Refrain from making assumptions about people. But Im not expecting you to do that and have a normal discussion. Just like you said. If only it were that simple!
Keep your way of thinking Im not going in discussion with you.
/give up
No, but making comparisons with Hitler when talking about an MMO is being overdramatic (not that you specifically did this, but some did). Overexageration and hyperbole isn't healthy criticism and some of your opinions sound like Cryptic's trying to build a tyrancy of how D&D should be. And such is not the case.
There could be more freedom. Maybe there will be. Maybe what we've seen from Beta is less than 50% of release content.
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Ahh...so you are one of those who gets angry if someone doesnt agree with you or criticize the game? Refrain from making assumptions about people. But Im not expecting you to do that and have a normal discussion. Just like you said. If only it were that simple!
Keep your way of thinking Im not going in discussion with you.
/give up
Absolutely no problem with disagreements . ryger5 pretty much covered what the problem is here, I'll just quote him:
"I have no argument with anyone who doesn't like the game, but I am dead tired of ePeen nerds proclaiming their observations are definitive and objective, and that they can define the brand based on them. In this case, this notion, that because NWO doesn't rigidly adhere to some rule book (which ironically makes it clear none of the rules need to be adhered to when you play), the game somehow violates D&D, or worse, isn't worthy to even be called D&D."
Thats flawed logic. Cryptic could never make a game identical to 4E rules. Its a video game. Its going to need tweeks here and there, along with sacrifices and painful decisions.
This!!!
It would be nice to be exactly as 4e rule set but it won't.
Absolutely no problem with disagreements . ryger5 pretty much covered what the problem is here, I'll just quote him:
"I have no argument with anyone who doesn't like the game, but I am dead tired of ePeen nerds proclaiming their observations are definitive and objective, and that they can define the brand based on them. In this case, this notion, that because NWO doesn't rigidly adhere to some rule book (which ironically makes it clear none of the rules need to be adhered to when you play), the game somehow violates D&D, or worse, isn't worthy to even be called D&D."
/agree
It's a game . . . play it or log off and get back to your pen and paper table where you belong and leave the rest of us to . . . well . . . enjoy a totally FREE game that costs NOTHING to play and is FAR cheaper than all of the gear for the tabletop LOL It's a digital MMO. If you are expecting tabletop rules, you won't find that here as it is not practical in this type of environment.
Absolutely no problem with disagreements . ryger5 pretty much covered what the problem is here, I'll just quote him:
"I have no argument with anyone who doesn't like the game, but I am dead tired of ePeen nerds proclaiming their observations are definitive and objective, and that they can define the brand based on them. In this case, this notion, that because NWO doesn't rigidly adhere to some rule book (which ironically makes it clear none of the rules need to be adhered to when you play), the game somehow violates D&D, or worse, isn't worthy to even be called D&D."
Ok according to you people who disagree with you are all the same. Keep your narrowminded thinking.
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hironsssMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
No, but making comparisons with Hitler when talking about an MMO is being overdramatic (not that you specifically did this, but some did). Overexageration and hyperbole isn't healthy criticism and some of your opinions sound like Cryptic's trying to build a tyrancy of how D&D should be. And such is not the case.
There could be more freedom. Maybe there will be. Maybe what we've seen from Beta is less than 50% of release content.
How hard is it to stick with the arguments without going personal? Nevermind that, who am I kidding expecting a normal discussion on the internet.
If you are replying to me then: Why are YOU trolling? Dont know how to type? You ate your keyboard?
Anger issues are excreted even from the white arial text you type. Get that checked out playa! This whole thread has been silly!
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hironsssMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited March 2013
And you are frustrated enough to post that picture. If you have something to say/discuss just say it. Im not even angry. I just dont know why you would post a meme in a normal discussion, unless you dont want people to take you seriously.
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vagrantzeroMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And you are frustrated enough to post that picture. If you have something to say/discuss just say it. Im not even angry. I just dont know why you would post a meme in a normal discussion, unless you dont want people to take you seriously.
To sum this all up, RAWR!!!! RAWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!! :rolleyes:
Freedom lol least we can name our character only freedom i see in this game. This is a solo ARPG with a few friends you can invite to play there is no mmo about this no open world at all and having a city that every one can be inn dose not count as open world.This is Diablo with more places to go and less character creation.
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hironsssMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
Too many people are getting upset and missing the point. First off, what ryger5 says about DnD is untestable. Anything can in fact be DnD because it is about the experience. Neverwinter's Cleric becomes 100% DnD by this term but so does playing WoW or talking to someone on the phone by his rule. So it then becomes weak. No evidence could ever possibly count against what Rygar5 has said. Any encounter is in fact DnD if you believe in the experience creating it. This is what makes it weak. I will admit, by his logic I or anyone could never argue anything is not DnD.
I am not arguing one way or the other about the Cleric in Neverwinter being good or bad. I am saying that you have to say the Devoted Cleric is correct according to Cryptic. It is not 100% correct according to the 4e rules. A lot of people have been defending it by saying it does follow the 4e rules, however it follows Crpytic’s which is fine. If you want to defend or argue against the Devoted Cleric in Neverwinter you have to use the right terms. This is all I am saying.
On top of this, Cryptic has used an illustration with a cleric holding a mace. So okay.. This could simply be a picture of a battle cleric and a devoted cleric we'll say. And this is fine, for Cryptic, because this is how they want the Cleric in their game. You cannot argue this is true by the 4e rules, holding a mace does not make you a battle cleric in 4e. Saying a battle cleric will give players who want to hold a mace is an acceptable answer as well. It has to be formed so it says it in a way that Crpytic is why it is okay. I hope this clears things up. Getting upset will achieve nothing; we need to exchange ideas correctly is all. And this seems to be a pretty heated subject we need to come to terms with together. I assure you I will be a Wizard (probably dwarf) when the game launches.
Comments
As for as the "Deviation from the 4thE ruleset"... that's probably the worst argument I've ever heard. If you look at each ruleset created in their own timeline, each "ruleset" had deviations from the previous one. Hell even the 4th Ruleset by itself was a HUGE deviation from the others. So what's wrong with deviating again from the 4th and just using it as a baseline guideline for this game? It also smells slightly of hypocrisy. Deviations, expansions, and homebrew. All three of these concepts are what evolved D&D into what you play now. Besides being unfair, I find it quite silly that people would think that another deviation is bad for any reason at all. The reasons usually listed are.
So silly. And honestly, it's been said before, but technically Cryptic is OUR DM. It's a very interesting view-point that I suggest everyone try to look through for the game. They control what we're able to do, equip, and our restrictions and limitation. Of course... building a 3D environment of quality, and implementing everything that it needs to be successful and at the very least functional takes some time. I just find it kind of sad that some players can't understand this, and that all good things take time. We all want something from this game that it doesn't -yet- offer. But I'm sure it's fair enough to not assume that it won't ever be. But let the developers nd design team focus on something a little more important right now. Getting the game ready to launch with what it needs to launch with. Not just what you WANT it to launch with.
Arrows and Blades do not have names on them.
They are addressed, "To whom it may concern.."
Which is why I said or give us more freedom im also ok with that. Even without D&D name they have lots to improve concerning customization. Asking for more choice of weapons is reasonable right? Nothing related to D&D right? Asking for distinctive feats. Also something that would make the game more varied. D&D or not, this game lacks customization. Compare it to other mmo, open world/instanced, RPG/Arpg or whatever catergory. Tons of BASIC freedom that isnt in the character creation.
Uhuh, stick to arguments please. You dont see me calling people who doesnt agree with me are usually HAMSTER. I think you can discuss in a normal way without making assumptions about people right?
Im not the one wanting cleric with a mace. Im fine with following D&D, because it has proven itself on pc with BG1/2, Neverwinter 1/2, Icewind dale, DDO etc. That, OR give us freedom. This freedom doesnt have anything to do with D&D or what not. I like freedom in any rpg. Tons of D&D pc games "limited" by the D&D rules YET it has tons of more freedom and more fun than Neverwinter. Seems to ME something isnt right. While fun is subjective more freedom in other games is a fact.
Cryptic gives me the feeling of being lazy. Like streetfighter with only 3 moves per character. "Its a design choice this is how we wanted it to be" Thats the feeling Cryptic is giving to me.
So we just have to agree we have different opinion of what will make NW a better game. Im fine with that.
Oh, I would never argue that fact. And I appreciate your opinion. However, my post was directed towards the OP (Something that I should've pointed out, just in case), but something the OP has done was cite D&D for this option. Not just wanting it for flavor, because we all want flavor. But using D&D to backup your argument is what's bringing this to a head.
Arrows and Blades do not have names on them.
They are addressed, "To whom it may concern.."
Personally, I love this style of combat, I love the "holy trinity", I love classes being limited on weapons so people aren't nerd-raging because a rogue wants to use a staff or the tank would rather use a bow than a shield. If I didn't like this type of stuff, I would move on to something else, not try to change core features of a game already designed and near-complete (for now). There was a game that attempted to change their core mechanics, not once, but twice--that game was Star Wars Galaxies, and after they decided to completely change their base game's mechanics it BOMBED (no longer exists now).
Love Neverwinter for what it is, and provide realistic ways to make it better. Also, it's unrealistic to expect everything all at once. Their developers seem to be paying attention to what we have to say, look at the recent changes to Wizards. I'm sure if enough people ask for a melee cleric, we'll get one, but what they shouldn't do is completely redesign a core class (devoted cleric) to try and satisfy those requests.
I'm hoping to see a Monk, Assassin, Druid...What I'd REALLY love to see is the Stormlord. The game isn't even out yet, so who can really say what they have planned for classes...but I'm looking forward to seeing!
Right now, the Devoted Cleric is Cryptics take on the style of that cleric. IE, that's why they're holding a holy symbol, which in 4E is the focus (no pun intended) of the Devoted Cleric.
Now, are you still with me?
Do you know WHY they chose such a design element? So when they implement the battle cleric, which is your standard mace and shield cleric, there is a distinct difference between the two classes BOTH mechanically AND visually.
Now granted, it will take some time...but Neverwinter will ADD classes as it grows, and I can promised you the stereotypical mace wielding cleric will absolutely be one of those.
So just relax. You'll get your mace.
Well said.
Everyone who wants all of this stuff NOW, just remember, the life of an MMO relies on new features OVER TIME. Don't expect everything anyone could possibly desire to be handed to you on day 1...after a couple months you'd have a ghost town.
Hate to state the obvious but for years DM's have used the rules how they wanted to tell a story. Cryptic is THE DM allowing a few others to tell smaller stories. As far as clerics go or any other class, this isn't World of Warcraft that took the challenge out of the game on specialized characters and made it to where you could do damage, heal or deflect damage through shields.
Let them try their thing and see how it goes and don't hate on it too much. you say you wont even play one at launch so it shouldn't be too big of a deal besides a small troll session on the forums. The other classes will come as they see fit to add them. Let the game get to be released first with what they are planning first. Who knows, you might end up liking it!
I have no problem with that. This is reasonable. I applaud this.
Note the difference here, note that this is a recognition that there are style choices made within the game that he does not like and nothing more.
There's no egotistical declaration that one's preferences actually define what the brand is in its entirety.
I have no argument with anyone who doesn't like the game, but I am dead tired of ePeen nerds proclaiming their observations are definitive and objective, and that they can define the brand based on them. In this case, this notion, that because NWO doesn't rigidly adhere to some rule book (which ironically makes it clear none of the rules need to be adhered to when you play), the game somehow violates D&D, or worse, isn't worthy to even be called D&D.
That's not objective thinking, it's just ego and it is not an insult to say so.
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I love it! Right there with you...it has been getting pretty irritating browsing through the forums the past few days since beta ended.
The choice that I should shut up and play other games? If I want to criticize the game I will do it. Regardless of something else.
Its not their style im having problem with, thats fine. Lots of games have that. But other games can create a cleric of their style WHILE MAINTAINING a great degree of freedom, varied skills and distinctive feats/paragon.
Their idea is fine but the execution, not so much.
That said i still think its a good game and i will play it for sure, the combat is amazing and im hoping cryptic make some deep changes to get it closer to pnp rules in future.
If only it were that simple! No, I don't expect that...generally the naysayers will frequent the forums pre-release, play for a couple weeks when the game launches, then move on to the next game to complain on their forums about why so-in-so's game is bad, will fail, isn't perfect, etc.
So yes, continue to complain about core mechanics that will most likely NEVER CHANGE.
And here we go again! Another D&D veteran that feels if a game doesn't meet his definition of D&D it isn't D&D.
/give up
Ahh...so you are one of those who gets angry if someone doesnt agree with you or criticize the game? Refrain from making assumptions about people. But Im not expecting you to do that and have a normal discussion. Just like you said. If only it were that simple!
Keep your way of thinking Im not going in discussion with you.
/give up
No, but making comparisons with Hitler when talking about an MMO is being overdramatic (not that you specifically did this, but some did). Overexageration and hyperbole isn't healthy criticism and some of your opinions sound like Cryptic's trying to build a tyrancy of how D&D should be. And such is not the case.
There could be more freedom. Maybe there will be. Maybe what we've seen from Beta is less than 50% of release content.
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
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Absolutely no problem with disagreements
"I have no argument with anyone who doesn't like the game, but I am dead tired of ePeen nerds proclaiming their observations are definitive and objective, and that they can define the brand based on them. In this case, this notion, that because NWO doesn't rigidly adhere to some rule book (which ironically makes it clear none of the rules need to be adhered to when you play), the game somehow violates D&D, or worse, isn't worthy to even be called D&D."
This!!!
It would be nice to be exactly as 4e rule set but it won't.
/agree
It's a game . . . play it or log off and get back to your pen and paper table where you belong and leave the rest of us to . . . well . . . enjoy a totally FREE game that costs NOTHING to play and is FAR cheaper than all of the gear for the tabletop LOL It's a digital MMO. If you are expecting tabletop rules, you won't find that here as it is not practical in this type of environment.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Ok according to you people who disagree with you are all the same. Keep your narrowminded thinking.
How hard is it to stick with the arguments without going personal? Nevermind that, who am I kidding expecting a normal discussion on the internet.
Anger issues are excreted even from the white arial text you type. Get that checked out playa! This whole thread has been silly!
To sum this all up, RAWR!!!! RAWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!! :rolleyes:
Right....oh well, was to be expected on the internet.
Arrows and Blades do not have names on them.
They are addressed, "To whom it may concern.."
I am not arguing one way or the other about the Cleric in Neverwinter being good or bad. I am saying that you have to say the Devoted Cleric is correct according to Cryptic. It is not 100% correct according to the 4e rules. A lot of people have been defending it by saying it does follow the 4e rules, however it follows Crpytic’s which is fine. If you want to defend or argue against the Devoted Cleric in Neverwinter you have to use the right terms. This is all I am saying.
On top of this, Cryptic has used an illustration with a cleric holding a mace. So okay.. This could simply be a picture of a battle cleric and a devoted cleric we'll say. And this is fine, for Cryptic, because this is how they want the Cleric in their game. You cannot argue this is true by the 4e rules, holding a mace does not make you a battle cleric in 4e. Saying a battle cleric will give players who want to hold a mace is an acceptable answer as well. It has to be formed so it says it in a way that Crpytic is why it is okay. I hope this clears things up. Getting upset will achieve nothing; we need to exchange ideas correctly is all. And this seems to be a pretty heated subject we need to come to terms with together. I assure you I will be a Wizard (probably dwarf) when the game launches.