Cryptic is the DM. DM's have the last say on everything in their D&D game. This is the single most important rule in D&D and has always been so.
QFT. "The first rule about Fight Club, is nobody talks about fight club." The first rule of D&D is, and always has been, "The DM (in this case, Cryptic) has final say in their campaign." The DM's word, in D&D, is law...
QFT. "The first rule about Fight Club, is nobody talks about fight club." The first rule of D&D is, and always has been, "The DM (in this case, Cryptic) has final say in their campaign." The DM's word, in D&D, is law...
It's always a wonder to me that all these, apparently, 'DnD fans' do not know or understand this cardinal law.
Actually, now that I think about it, I've played with some really unpleasant players in 'pen-and-paper' and 'tabletop' games that were similar. Rules-lawyers who would argue with the DM or Referee with the rulebook in their hands pointing at and, sometimes very patiently, explaining why the DM's ruling was wrong and they were right. In my experience, you are never going to convince these people that they wrong. They may eventually accept the ruling, but they will always believe that they were cheated or wronged.
Too many people are getting upset and missing the point. First off, what ryger5 says about DnD is untestable. Anything can in fact be DnD because it is about the experience. Neverwinter's Cleric becomes 100% DnD by this term but so does playing WoW or talking to someone on the phone by his rule. So it then becomes weak. No evidence could ever possibly count against what Rygar5 has said. Any encounter is in fact DnD if you believe in the experience creating it. This is what makes it weak. I will admit, by his logic I or anyone could never argue anything is not DnD.
Lol yea by his logic if you put the name D&D on a monopoly game you could call it D&D. What a joke. Rename WoW and its a D&D game lol. No. The arguments NW is a D&D game because you dont have to follow the rules are just as subjective as their counterparts arguments. Its all opinions. All classics D&D pc games are alike, except NWO.
Freedom lol least we can name our character only freedom i see in this game. This is a solo ARPG with a few friends you can invite to play there is no mmo about this no open world at all and having a city that every one can be inn dose not count as open world.This is Diablo with more places to go and less character creation.
This is exactly my thought after the beta, a bigger Diablo. Even a "singleplayer" game has more character choices than a mmo. But whatever, its free, wasnt expecting a quality game anyway. Ill just finish gw2 and then Final Fantasy 14 should be ready soon. THOSE are games worth paying for.
QFT. "The first rule about Fight Club, is nobody talks about fight club." The first rule of D&D is, and always has been, "The DM (in this case, Cryptic) has final say in their campaign." The DM's word, in D&D, is law...
Thats why this game isnt on par with other big mmo. You just bent over and accept whatever Cryptic gives you.
It's always a wonder to me that all these, apparently, 'DnD fans' do not know or understand this cardinal law.
Actually, now that I think about it, I've played with some really unpleasant players in 'pen-and-paper' and 'tabletop' games that were similar. Rules-lawyers who would argue with the DM or Referee with the rulebook in their hands pointing at and, sometimes very patiently, explaining why the DM's ruling was wrong and they were right. In my experience, you are never going to convince these people that they wrong. They may eventually accept the ruling, but they will always believe that they were cheated or wronged.
You guys said you dont have to follow the rules to be a D&D right? So anything goes apparently.
It's always a wonder to me that all these, apparently, 'DnD fans' do not know or understand this cardinal law.
Actually, now that I think about it, I've played with some really unpleasant players in 'pen-and-paper' and 'tabletop' games that were similar. Rules-lawyers who would argue with the DM or Referee with the rulebook in their hands pointing at and, sometimes very patiently, explaining why the DM's ruling was wrong and they were right. In my experience, you are never going to convince these people that they wrong. They may eventually accept the ruling, but they will always believe that they were cheated or wronged.
Lol yea by his logic if you put the name D&D on a monopoly game you could call it D&D. What a joke. Rename WoW and its a D&D game lol. No. The arguments NW is a D&D game because you dont have to follow the rules are just as subjective as their counterparts arguments. Its all opinions. All classics D&D pc games are alike, except NWO.
This is exactly my thought after the beta, a bigger Diablo. Even a "singleplayer" game has more character choices than a mmo. But whatever, its free, wasnt expecting a quality game anyway. Ill just finish gw2 and then Final Fantasy 14 should be ready soon. THOSE are games worth paying for.
Thats why this game isnt on par with other big mmo. You just bent over and accept whatever Cryptic gives you.
You guys said you dont have to follow the rules to be a D&D right? So anything goes apparently.
Lol all "classic" D&D games arent' based on modern ruleset, bro.
Lol have fun with that FFXIV, a game that was SOOOOOO BAD they had to redo it and make a new release date. Real promise there. FFXIV is probably the only game I've ever purchased that I experienced regret in the first 5 minutes of gameplay.
What other "big" MMOs are you referring to? There is only one "big" MMO out there, none of the other ones even come close to the number of subscribers it has, it being WoW. It's funny you say it isn't on par with anything else though, especially considering it hasn't been released yet.
Your last comment is frankly too stupid to offer a real response to. Obviously, you have probably never played a D&D game outside of what is handed to you through an electronic medium. That's alright though, clearly, something that doesn't meet your criteria IS NOT D&D. As a DM, which clearly you have never been, you don't have to abide by any established rules. For instance, in games I DM I don't bother with effective character level; if someone wants to play a Drow, I don't require them to subtract 2 levels from their real level. I also don't force people to roll dice for stupid BS like the "rules" require you to do. If someone is an adventurer who has been traveling the world and fighting I assume they know how to climb a freakin ladder without the need to roll dice. Just because I don't require people to follow the D&D rules and roll dice for every little thing they do doesn't make it any less D&D.
FFS, these threads and the replies in them are getting soooo old; if you don't like the core mechanics of Neverwinter then MOVE ON. You're going to quit after 1 or 2 weeks anyway, don't even bother getting started, just quit now and stop wasting the developers time with asinine suggestions.
0
steppenkatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
How hard is it to stick with the arguments without going personal? Nevermind that, who am I kidding expecting a normal discussion on the internet.
Please read my post. In which way did I take my arguments to a personal level? If that's the case, I shall excuse myself.
But you're seem to overexaggerating a lot, specially when you read comments that don't agree with you. If saying that is an insult for you, well... better not participate in a forum thread, you'll get angry in no time. :P
Characters: - Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer) - Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur) - Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC) - Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Please read my post. In which way did I take my arguments to a personal level? If that's the case, I shall excuse myself.
But you're seem to overexaggerating a lot, specially when you read comments that don't agree with you. If saying that is an insult for you, well... better not participate in a forum thread, you'll get angry in no time. :P
Eh don't pay attention to these people, they are in the forums of EVERY new game, constantly complaining and never satisfied with what is offered to them. Fortunately they usually disappear after about a month or 2 of game release, and move on to the next game to complain and moan.
Lol all "classic" D&D games arent' based on modern ruleset, bro.
Lol have fun with that FFXIV, a game that was SOOOOOO BAD they had to redo it and make a new release date. Real promise there. FFXIV is probably the only game I've ever purchased that I experienced regret in the first 5 minutes of gameplay.
What other "big" MMOs are you referring to? There is only one "big" MMO out there, none of the other ones even come close to the number of subscribers it has, it being WoW. It's funny you say it isn't on par with anything else though, especially considering it hasn't been released yet.
Your last comment is frankly too stupid to offer a real response to. Obviously, you have probably never played a D&D game outside of what is handed to you through an electronic medium. That's alright though, clearly, something that doesn't meet your criteria IS NOT D&D. As a DM, which clearly you have never been, you don't have to abide by any established rules. For instance, in games I DM I don't bother with effective character level; if someone wants to play a Drow, I don't require them to subtract 2 levels from their real level. I also don't force people to roll dice for stupid BS like the "rules" require you to do. If someone is an adventurer who has been traveling the world and fighting I assume they know how to climb a freakin ladder without the need to roll dice. Just because I don't require people to follow the D&D rules and roll dice for every little thing they do doesn't make it any less D&D.
FFS, these threads and the replies in them are getting soooo old; if you don't like the core mechanics of Neverwinter then MOVE ON. You're going to quit after 1 or 2 weeks anyway, don't even bother getting started, just quit now and stop wasting the developers time with asinine suggestions.
yea and if they followed the modern ruleset even a tad more then this game wouldnt suck so bad. Thats the problem. This isnt D&D worthy.
The old FF14 is different from this one. I play the beta, worth every penny. By your logic, cryptic has a history with bad mmo, so thats why NW is subpar.
AION, GW2, EVE Online. You dont need to get wow numbers to be big. All quality games.
Just as stupid as your response. Im ok with NW following half of the rules. Clearly NW isnt even following the core ones, nvm the small things. Uhuh and I think you are the one who havent played as DM. and to you your criteria is always the right one. Yours is just as subjective as mine. Take off your fanboy glasses. You dont have to defend everything with D&D on it. I think you would even defend a piece of toiletpaper if I write D&D on it.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I am not arguing one way or the other about the Cleric in Neverwinter being good or bad. I am saying that you have to say the Devoted Cleric is correct according to Cryptic. It is not 100% correct according to the 4e rules. A lot of people have been defending it by saying it does follow the 4e rules, however it follows Crpytic’s which is fine. If you want to defend or argue against the Devoted Cleric in Neverwinter you have to use the right terms. This is all I am saying.
You're failing to understand that at the fundamental level, the Devoted Cleric IS correct according to the D&D rules.
In 4E, you have powers that are primarily driven by either weapon attacks or implement attacks. For example, certain attacks from the cleric REQUIRE a melee weapon. It says so in the power descriptions. Certain powers REQUIRE an implement, which in the case of the cleric is the holy sympol. One method of building a cleric in 4E D&D was to chose all implement powers, most of which were ranged or AOE attacks. When you attacked with these powers, they were modified by the implement, NOT the weapon. Hence, if you had the choice of starting with a magic +1 mace or a +1 holy symbol, you'd pick the hold symbol every time.
This is the root of you fundamental misunderstanding of 4E and thus Neverwinter. A lot of clerics in 4E could go from level 1 to 30 without ever swinging a melee weapon. So what Cryptic has done (and whether you agree with it or not is yours to argue) is to take this style of the cleric, the Devoted Cleric, and implement it (no pun intended) first. Since D&D relies on your imagination, their artists and designers imagined the Devoted Cleric as wielding this extremely large and obvious holy symbol, since it directly corollates to their powers. It is, in fact, without doubt 100% correct according to the D&D 4E rules.
So yes, we are missing the other half of the equation, the Battle Cleric, who wielded your stereotypical mace and shield, smashed skulls in and prefered melee-based blunt force smiting. That's also in 4E and will be in Neverwinter at some point. It's obviously too much of a D&D icon to not have AT SOME POINT.
You can be upset (and even argumentative) that this iconic version of the Cleric was not released first, that's fine. But this:
You're failing to understand that at the fundamental level, the Devoted Cleric IS correct according to the D&D rules.
In 4E, you have powers that are primarily driven by either weapon attacks or implement attacks. For example, certain attacks from the cleric REQUIRE a melee weapon. It says so in the power descriptions. Certain powers REQUIRE an implement, which in the case of the cleric is the holy sympol. One method of building a cleric in 4E D&D was to chose all implement powers, most of which were ranged or AOE attacks. When you attacked with these powers, they were modified by the implement, NOT the weapon. Hence, if you had the choice of starting with a magic +1 mace or a +1 holy symbol, you'd pick the hold symbol every time.
This is the root of you fundamental misunderstanding of 4E and thus Neverwinter. A lot of clerics in 4E could go from level 1 to 30 without ever swinging a melee weapon. So what Cryptic has done (and whether you agree with it or not is yours to argue) is to take this style of the cleric, the Devoted Cleric, and implement it (no pun intended) first. Since D&D relies on your imagination, their artists and designers imagined the Devoted Cleric as wielding this extremely large and obvious holy symbol, since it directly corollates to their powers. It is, in fact, without doubt 100% correct according to the D&D 4E rules.
So yes, we are missing the other half of the equation, the Battle Cleric, who wielded your stereotypical mace and shield, smashed skulls in and prefered melee-based blunt force smiting. That's also in 4E and will be in Neverwinter at some point. It's obviously too much of a D&D icon to not have AT SOME POINT.
You can be upset (and even argumentative) that this iconic version of the Cleric was not released first, that's fine. But this:
...is fundamentally and absolutely wrong. The Devoted Cleric in Neverwinter is correct per the 4E rules.
/signed. This is correct. Also since they worked with WotC I'm quite sure they know the rules too!
Yes, devoted cleric - also known as laser cleric - is a well known build.
However, I stand with melee cleric as melee cleric has always been more iconic in D&D than any other cleric. This is because of the roots of cleric in fighter class.
0
doctorcomicsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The example is in subjective relativism. Acording to subjective relativism what Hitler did was morally right. ....
I invoke Godwin's Law, which states:
A) Every conversation on the Internet invariably leads to one side invoking Hitler, and... The first guy to invoke Hitler loses.
Look, no one would complain if traditional Melee clerics were added to the game. Everyone would welcome that. And some people would be very, very glad to see it.
But you have lost your credibility in this thread. You aren't going to persuade people here, no matter how passionate you are. Perhaps we should step back again and refocus on your goal. Is your goal "to get Melee clerics in the game?" If it is, is this the best way to accomplish that? Or, perhaps this is not your goal at all.
Yes, devoted cleric - also known as laser cleric - is a well known build.
However, I stand with melee cleric as melee cleric has always been more iconic in D&D than any other cleric. This is because of the roots of cleric in fighter class.
This is a major misconception by people who don't know the game or don't bother learning it.
I made a trip to my local comic book/game shop last afternoon/evening. Spoke with the folks all D&D gamers as well as had a chance to sit down with the rule books. After reading the players handbook and discussing it at length we all agreed WOTC needs to stay out of the RPG market. 4E ruins D&D, makes it what it has never been. They introduced me to pathfinder, which is more like D&D 4E was in every way. Guess I'll be waiting for pathfinder online.
As to the topic at hand, the devoted cleric/battle cleric are examples. Something for the simpleminded or the too lazy to figure out how to play. IT IS SUGGESTIONS to learn from. If you actually read and learn you'd see the intro, all clerics have access to "simple melee/ranged weapons" Not broken down by build but by CLASS, which in this case is CLERIC.
Now if you check out the "keywords" they are what in the old days we called spell components. all spells have requirements in this case Clerics use their holy symbol and they've added some that require weapons. This is pretty much the same from the old days. Clerics always had holy symbols and weapons.
To say devoted clerics have no weapon use because they are devoted clerics is stupid and not intended by 4E. And if I'm a dwarf devoted cleric of Moradin you can bet my holy symbol is going to be a battle hammer.
This is a major misconception by people who don't know the game or don't bother learning it.
I made a trip to my local comic book/game shop last afternoon/evening. Spoke with the folks all D&D gamers as well as had a chance to sit down with the rule books. After reading the players handbook and discussing it at length we all agreed WOTC needs to stay out of the RPG market. 4E ruins D&D, makes it what it has never been. They introduced me to pathfinder, which is more like D&D 4E was in every way. Guess I'll be waiting for pathfinder online.
As to the topic at hand, the devoted cleric/battle cleric are examples. Something for the simpleminded or the too lazy to figure out how to play. IT IS SUGGESTIONS to learn from. If you actually read and learn you'd see the intro, all clerics have access to "simple melee/ranged weapons" Not broken down by build but by CLASS, which in this case is CLERIC.
Now if you check out the "keywords" they are what in the old days we called spell components. all spells have requirements in this case Clerics use their holy symbol and they've added some that require weapons. This is pretty much the same from the old days. Clerics always had holy symbols and weapons.
To say devoted clerics have no weapon use because they are devoted clerics is stupid and not intended by 4E. And if I'm a dwarf devoted cleric of Moradin you can bet my holy symbol is going to be a battle hammer.
And! You suck at using it as a Devoted Cleric. Pathfinder is just a revamped and streamlined version of 3.5 when you get to looking at it. Also WoTC saved DnD from going out of business, made it profitable (yeah we all had to buy some books again....) and 4e when you get down to it can be just as complex as any of the previous versions. Though like all of them, you don't have to get complex to have a good time with it.
Comments
QFT. "The first rule about Fight Club, is nobody talks about fight club." The first rule of D&D is, and always has been, "The DM (in this case, Cryptic) has final say in their campaign." The DM's word, in D&D, is law...
It's always a wonder to me that all these, apparently, 'DnD fans' do not know or understand this cardinal law.
Actually, now that I think about it, I've played with some really unpleasant players in 'pen-and-paper' and 'tabletop' games that were similar. Rules-lawyers who would argue with the DM or Referee with the rulebook in their hands pointing at and, sometimes very patiently, explaining why the DM's ruling was wrong and they were right. In my experience, you are never going to convince these people that they wrong. They may eventually accept the ruling, but they will always believe that they were cheated or wronged.
Lol yea by his logic if you put the name D&D on a monopoly game you could call it D&D. What a joke. Rename WoW and its a D&D game lol. No. The arguments NW is a D&D game because you dont have to follow the rules are just as subjective as their counterparts arguments. Its all opinions. All classics D&D pc games are alike, except NWO.
This is exactly my thought after the beta, a bigger Diablo. Even a "singleplayer" game has more character choices than a mmo. But whatever, its free, wasnt expecting a quality game anyway. Ill just finish gw2 and then Final Fantasy 14 should be ready soon. THOSE are games worth paying for.
Thats why this game isnt on par with other big mmo. You just bent over and accept whatever Cryptic gives you.
You guys said you dont have to follow the rules to be a D&D right? So anything goes apparently.
QFT, right on.
Lol all "classic" D&D games arent' based on modern ruleset, bro.
Lol have fun with that FFXIV, a game that was SOOOOOO BAD they had to redo it and make a new release date. Real promise there. FFXIV is probably the only game I've ever purchased that I experienced regret in the first 5 minutes of gameplay.
What other "big" MMOs are you referring to? There is only one "big" MMO out there, none of the other ones even come close to the number of subscribers it has, it being WoW. It's funny you say it isn't on par with anything else though, especially considering it hasn't been released yet.
Your last comment is frankly too stupid to offer a real response to. Obviously, you have probably never played a D&D game outside of what is handed to you through an electronic medium. That's alright though, clearly, something that doesn't meet your criteria IS NOT D&D. As a DM, which clearly you have never been, you don't have to abide by any established rules. For instance, in games I DM I don't bother with effective character level; if someone wants to play a Drow, I don't require them to subtract 2 levels from their real level. I also don't force people to roll dice for stupid BS like the "rules" require you to do. If someone is an adventurer who has been traveling the world and fighting I assume they know how to climb a freakin ladder without the need to roll dice. Just because I don't require people to follow the D&D rules and roll dice for every little thing they do doesn't make it any less D&D.
FFS, these threads and the replies in them are getting soooo old; if you don't like the core mechanics of Neverwinter then MOVE ON. You're going to quit after 1 or 2 weeks anyway, don't even bother getting started, just quit now and stop wasting the developers time with asinine suggestions.
Please read my post. In which way did I take my arguments to a personal level? If that's the case, I shall excuse myself.
But you're seem to overexaggerating a lot, specially when you read comments that don't agree with you. If saying that is an insult for you, well... better not participate in a forum thread, you'll get angry in no time. :P
- Titania Silverblade, the Iron Rose of Myth Drannor (Lvl 60 GWF, Destroyer)
- Gwyneth, the Cowardly Cat Burglar Drowling (Lvl 60 TR, Saboteur)
- Lady Rowanne Firehair, Heartwarder of Sune (Lvl 33 DC)
- Satella, Sensate (LvL 44 CW, Renegade, Non-Active)
Check Steppenkat's Foundry Quest Reviews!
Eh don't pay attention to these people, they are in the forums of EVERY new game, constantly complaining and never satisfied with what is offered to them. Fortunately they usually disappear after about a month or 2 of game release, and move on to the next game to complain and moan.
yea and if they followed the modern ruleset even a tad more then this game wouldnt suck so bad. Thats the problem. This isnt D&D worthy.
The old FF14 is different from this one. I play the beta, worth every penny. By your logic, cryptic has a history with bad mmo, so thats why NW is subpar.
AION, GW2, EVE Online. You dont need to get wow numbers to be big. All quality games.
Just as stupid as your response. Im ok with NW following half of the rules. Clearly NW isnt even following the core ones, nvm the small things. Uhuh and I think you are the one who havent played as DM. and to you your criteria is always the right one. Yours is just as subjective as mine. Take off your fanboy glasses. You dont have to defend everything with D&D on it. I think you would even defend a piece of toiletpaper if I write D&D on it.
You're failing to understand that at the fundamental level, the Devoted Cleric IS correct according to the D&D rules.
In 4E, you have powers that are primarily driven by either weapon attacks or implement attacks. For example, certain attacks from the cleric REQUIRE a melee weapon. It says so in the power descriptions. Certain powers REQUIRE an implement, which in the case of the cleric is the holy sympol. One method of building a cleric in 4E D&D was to chose all implement powers, most of which were ranged or AOE attacks. When you attacked with these powers, they were modified by the implement, NOT the weapon. Hence, if you had the choice of starting with a magic +1 mace or a +1 holy symbol, you'd pick the hold symbol every time.
This is the root of you fundamental misunderstanding of 4E and thus Neverwinter. A lot of clerics in 4E could go from level 1 to 30 without ever swinging a melee weapon. So what Cryptic has done (and whether you agree with it or not is yours to argue) is to take this style of the cleric, the Devoted Cleric, and implement it (no pun intended) first. Since D&D relies on your imagination, their artists and designers imagined the Devoted Cleric as wielding this extremely large and obvious holy symbol, since it directly corollates to their powers. It is, in fact, without doubt 100% correct according to the D&D 4E rules.
So yes, we are missing the other half of the equation, the Battle Cleric, who wielded your stereotypical mace and shield, smashed skulls in and prefered melee-based blunt force smiting. That's also in 4E and will be in Neverwinter at some point. It's obviously too much of a D&D icon to not have AT SOME POINT.
You can be upset (and even argumentative) that this iconic version of the Cleric was not released first, that's fine. But this:
...is fundamentally and absolutely wrong. The Devoted Cleric in Neverwinter is correct per the 4E rules.
/signed. This is correct. Also since they worked with WotC I'm quite sure they know the rules too!
However, I stand with melee cleric as melee cleric has always been more iconic in D&D than any other cleric. This is because of the roots of cleric in fighter class.
I invoke Godwin's Law, which states:
A) Every conversation on the Internet invariably leads to one side invoking Hitler, and...
Look, no one would complain if traditional Melee clerics were added to the game. Everyone would welcome that. And some people would be very, very glad to see it.
But you have lost your credibility in this thread. You aren't going to persuade people here, no matter how passionate you are. Perhaps we should step back again and refocus on your goal. Is your goal "to get Melee clerics in the game?" If it is, is this the best way to accomplish that? Or, perhaps this is not your goal at all.
Seven Against Thay: An RP-Focused Guild for all Races and Classes
This is a major misconception by people who don't know the game or don't bother learning it.
I made a trip to my local comic book/game shop last afternoon/evening. Spoke with the folks all D&D gamers as well as had a chance to sit down with the rule books. After reading the players handbook and discussing it at length we all agreed WOTC needs to stay out of the RPG market. 4E ruins D&D, makes it what it has never been. They introduced me to pathfinder, which is more like D&D 4E was in every way. Guess I'll be waiting for pathfinder online.
As to the topic at hand, the devoted cleric/battle cleric are examples. Something for the simpleminded or the too lazy to figure out how to play. IT IS SUGGESTIONS to learn from. If you actually read and learn you'd see the intro, all clerics have access to "simple melee/ranged weapons" Not broken down by build but by CLASS, which in this case is CLERIC.
Now if you check out the "keywords" they are what in the old days we called spell components. all spells have requirements in this case Clerics use their holy symbol and they've added some that require weapons. This is pretty much the same from the old days. Clerics always had holy symbols and weapons.
To say devoted clerics have no weapon use because they are devoted clerics is stupid and not intended by 4E. And if I'm a dwarf devoted cleric of Moradin you can bet my holy symbol is going to be a battle hammer.
And! You suck at using it as a Devoted Cleric. Pathfinder is just a revamped and streamlined version of 3.5 when you get to looking at it. Also WoTC saved DnD from going out of business, made it profitable (yeah we all had to buy some books again....) and 4e when you get down to it can be just as complex as any of the previous versions. Though like all of them, you don't have to get complex to have a good time with it.