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Exemplifying D&D in Neverwinter
ambisinisterr
Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
This thread will focus on putting a spotlight on the main issues which hold people back from calling Neverwinter a D&D Game.
While without a doubt the game does heavily use the lore, themes and does appear to be D&D on the surface many prospective players are yet to be won over because the gameplay itself doesn't feel like a Dungeons and Dragons game and there are reasons above and beyond the fact it is an action combat MMO which ruin this feeling for many.
This is merely a selection of the feedback which I have found throughout the forums which are not only key factors to D&D but are also reasonable in request. This thread can not and will not discuss the option of making this NWN3, incorporating the turn system or adding more classes/races at release. Please understand that this game is not NWN3 and will, no matter what, use an Action Combat MMORPG design. Classes and races will be added and expanded over time so this is ot going to be a key issue.
However the feedback I have collected has come down to two very important words: Character Customization.
We know the lore is there, but what else could be done to emulate the D&D Mechanics?
While without a doubt the game does heavily use the lore, themes and does appear to be D&D on the surface many prospective players are yet to be won over because the gameplay itself doesn't feel like a Dungeons and Dragons game and there are reasons above and beyond the fact it is an action combat MMO which ruin this feeling for many.
This is merely a selection of the feedback which I have found throughout the forums which are not only key factors to D&D but are also reasonable in request. This thread can not and will not discuss the option of making this NWN3, incorporating the turn system or adding more classes/races at release. Please understand that this game is not NWN3 and will, no matter what, use an Action Combat MMORPG design. Classes and races will be added and expanded over time so this is ot going to be a key issue.
However the feedback I have collected has come down to two very important words: Character Customization.
We know the lore is there, but what else could be done to emulate the D&D Mechanics?
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Comments
It's important to note that these powers are the defining aspects to Neverwinter Combat it's important to make sure players can feel like their character uses powers in a completely different way than any other character. Considering powers in Neverwinter define the player's combat it's important to give players as much freedom as possible when choosing and setting up their powers.
I - The numbers of Powers has to be greatly expanded.
ii - it's understandable to keep close to the D&D Rulebooks but due to the adapted combat mechanics, removal of activated feats, etc this isn't ideal
iii - Powers need to diversify every character and the handful of options (and pages of power upgrades) simply feels limited and forced
II - Players have to be in charge of which powers they learn each level and which powers are upgraded.
ii - Any upgrades should be by player choice. The simple fact that every damage increase is predetermined reduces the thrill of leveling
iii - Levels 1-20 were expanded to be levels 1-60 so players didn't feel like they weren't advancing. Due to the current lack of options some don't feel like there are levels are important to begin with.
III - Powers shouldn't be simply leveled up to cause more damage. Powers themselves should feel upgraded just as fighters get more attacks per round and wizards get more missile bolts and spells to memorize with levels in PnP (at least in 1-3 Ed).
ii - Perhaps there could be 'power combos' implemented
iii - Add additional graphical animations to powers as players level
The feats system has become the iconic center to D&D character customization. Though the rudiments of the system existed in Second Edition feats really only came to fruitation in Third Edition but modern feats redefined the D&D Experience. Feats allowed players to take charge of who their character is and go above and beyond hack and slash. Feats made different characters better or worse in different situations and gave true tangible talents to each and every single character or allowed them to bend the standard rules of their given class and race.
I - Feats are the defining force of your character and the talent tree just is not a comparable alternative.
ii - Every single feat should *define* a character, not slightly benefit them
iii - feats shouldn't bland combat improvements. Feats in PnP are part of the character's story
II - Feats need to be chosen by the players and should effect the player in combat and out of combat.
ii - Additional Non-Combat Skills/Masteries?
iii - Perhaps these should be the key to unlocking 'power combos?'
iv - reduced cooldowns?
III The skill tree isn't all bad and I feel it does a decent job in aiding the character but thats what it is, a skills tree. They are not feats and a system which emulates PnP D&D Feats needs to be added.
ii - prereqs should be based on race as well as class
iii - feats should allow players to customize their characters beyond standard practice (such as using different item types/attacks/powers)
These have existed from the dawn of D&D and need to be given a proper place in Neverwinter. One of the first interviews I saw D&D got boiled down to 'kill monsters, take their loot' and this is probably the most basic and fairly innacurate way to look at D&D.
D&D is about the choices in how to defeat an obstacle. There could be a room full of monsters but the awesome part about D&D is there are a number of ways to either beat or avoid that room of monsters. This is done with character skills and whether through Role-Play or in the built in skills systems which came later on this has been the core aspect which has defined D&D from the start and it can't be shrugged off as simply a source of additional loot.
I - Skills need to be expanded to include key aspects to D&D such as Persuade, Spot, Search...etc.
ii - Skills NEED to have a fail chance and a leveling system. It doesn't have to be min max but could be something like novice, practiced, adept and master.
II - Players need to be given one class skill, one optional skill and be able to choose to level those or choose additional skills later
ii - Certain skills should remain class specific but not one class one skill
iii - Foundry Authors will put them to use as long as a true skills system is put in place. Limiting skills to loot options is...not enough.
III - Even master levels should have the chance to fail.
ii - Min/Maxing isn't for everybody, but no fail chance or savings throws are a bit overkill
IV - It's been said multiple times in this section but it deserves it's own bullet: Skills NEED to effect the path to success.
ii - Skills need to play a key role in conversations and exploration, not simply loot.
I'll give my feedback on each of the three sections, based on how important I think they are and how convincing I felt the statements in each section were.
POWERS:
I don't particularly agree with anything in this section. I feel like we have plenty of power selection now, and the way the powers work and are obtained seems quite good to me at this point.
Would it be kinda nice to have a few more optional powers to choose from for each class? Sure. But that's extra work for the class/system designers, and I'd much, MUCH rather see them working on filling out the basic core class selection right now than trying to re-design the power system or beef up what seems, to me, to be a perfectly complete and well-designed set of powers for the classes we already have.
Out of all the things they could be working on, adding more powers or changing how we get them is about the least priority as far as I'm concerned.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how much do I want the developers to work on POWERS right now?
1.5 out of 10.
FEATS:
This section is more convincing to me than the powers section, as I think that the feat system in the game could definitely be improved to be more interesting. I think it would be better to have the feats be stronger and more playstyle-changing or defining, and simply have fewer of them available. Maybe we only get a feat every 10 levels or so, but each one does something BIG that really enhances how we play the class.
However, this too is a lot of work for the system designers, and it doesn't seem vitally important enough in the immediate term to warrant a great deal of attention YET, in my opinion. The feat system we have in-game right now, while a bit bland, is still perfectly serviceable and will do for the time being.
Again, I'd much rather see them finish filling out a basic complete roster of core class archetypes (at least the two types of Ranger, War Wizard, Battle Cleric, and Brawny Rogue, giving a total of five base classes with two variant builds each, plus two Paragon Paths for each class) with the current feat system, before they devote much developer time to completely overhauling the way feats work.
But this is something to definitely look at for the medium-term future, as it could be a big enhancement to the game and to character customization.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how much do I want the developers to work on FEATS right now?
4 out of 10.
NON-COMBAT SKILLS:
Okay, NOW I'm with you wholeheartedly. Everything in this section I strongly agree with. This is a huge area of weakness in the current game, I feel, and should be widely expanded and deepened. I think that focusing on this area would make more of a difference in the short-term as far as making the game more "real D&D-like" and just overall BETTER, than working on more powers or improved feats would.
More non-combat skills, player control over their advancement in non-combat skills, and lots more ways to use non-combat skills to affect gameplay, achieve objectives, and alter the flow of events. This is an area of customization that not only allows players to make interesting and meaningful choices in their character development, but ALSO interesting and meaningful choices during gameplay itself.
And of course, giving full support in the Foundry for authors to be able to incorporate and leverage an expanded and deepened non-combat skill system would make for vastly improved user-generated adventures. This is probably one of the very best things you could do to improve the power of the Foundry in the short-term.
I think that this area needs to be a very high priority going forward, right up there with adding more playable content and more classes.
On a scale from 1 to 10, how much do I want the developers to work on NON-COMBAT SKILLS right now?
9.5 out of 10.
Every time they idiot-proof something...they make better idiots.
There is no doubt this game is going to be good, but if they take into account the feedback in these forums
and can imbue a little more of the iconic D&D feel, it will be an "outstanding" benchmark game for years to come.
Using Firesnakeaires importance method:
Powers: 3/10 Would like to see a bit of variation, but can wait.
Feats: 6/10 Definitely needs more substance, the 1% stuff is boring and near pointless as is.
Skills: 10/10 The current skillset unfortunately just seems lazy, there is no reason for not having tiered skills with chance of failure, as well as having a much broader variety of D&D esque skills. (spot, listen, search, etc.)
Another area that needs huge looking at are base stats. STR, INT, CON etc. feel as meaningless as the feats. Not impressed with 18 STR only giving 4% more dmg or so then someone with 10. They should be the most important stat in game, especially towards non-combat skills.
Tiko
Whatever the edition D&D has always been about:
Cooperation (Reliance on Others): D&D has always had distinct classes (ok, they almost did away with this in D&D 4e, but they're still technically "distinct" classes even if they all look alike) with different skill sets, strengths and weakness that rely upon eachother to fullfill their goals. This was done purposefully in order to force characters to cooperate and work together. The game is not and has never being about going solo to every dungeon and being able to handle the entire thing all by yourself (which is what every Cryptic game is all about).
Its about always having someone to heal you, someone that can open locked doors that you NEED to open so you can progress in the adventure or disable traps that may get you killed. D&D has never been about traps that do minimal damage because you have to survive them in case you don't have someone to disarm them on your party. This person don't have to be another player, it can also be an NPC henchman that can rent their skills when you don't have anyone that can do them in your group (or when you're going "alone").
Suggestion: I'm not sure to what extend pets could serve as "henchmen", but one thing I think could work is to use the Bridge Officer system from STO as a model for allowing solo players to play solo, yet still experience D&D the way it has always been--by having characters (PC or NPC) with different skills work together to achieve their goals, rather than having one character that can easily solo everything by themselves.
Tactical Combat: D&D has never been about "actiony" combat. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that, but there has to be more than just "actiony" game play in combat for a game to be in the "spirit" of D&D. Combat in D&D is about terrain, visibility and lighting, cover, ranged vs. melee (not melee lunge cop out attacks--if you're pure melee you're supposed to either have a backup ranged weapon, sneak your way towards ranged opponents, or have a strong shield so you can block your way there), etc.
Out of Combat Challenges: D&D is NOT just about hack-n-slash. Its about facing a myriad of challenges, not all of which have to be strictly combat, but all of which can be integral to the adventure. This includes social challenges (persuading or intimidating a guard or NPC for information or access to a certain location), technical challenges (finding and removing traps, opening locks, etc.), lore (having the right knowledge to read special scripts that may uncover vital information to progress in the adventure, recognizing religious artifacts, etc.), finding clues (through the use of perception skills), solving puzzles and more.
Plus other stuff I haven't thought of yet or havent have time to write (and can't get into them now
Active DMing: I have heard arguments about how the Foundry will provide tools to allow DMs to tell their story in ways that would make active DMing unnecessary, but DMing is NOT about the story or narrative--its about the challenge of adapting that story or narrative to player character choices. Not about dragging them by the nose along a predetermined path where you want them to go. And you can't really do that, without some sort of option to actively DM. So it might be good if such a thing could be worked in somehow into the game (though, such a thing is probably beyond what we can expect to have by launch).
The game is Dungeons & Dragons. Not because I'm some fanboi, excited for the game, because the game was defined by Gary Gygax nearly 40 years ago as:
Dungeons & Dragons is a fantastic, exciting and imaginative game of play playing for adults 12 years and up. Each player creates a character who may be dwarves, elves, halflings or human fighting-men, magic-users, pious clerics or wily thieves. The characters are then plunged into an adventure in a series of dungeons, tunnels, secret rooms and caverns designed by another player, the referee, often called the Dungeon Master.
Note that no mention that the game "must have saving throws" or "must have perception checks", because early instances of D&D had no perception checks, heck even ability checks weren't canonized rules until years and years later.
Note that no matter what introduction or explanation of D&D you ever find, from any author or era of D&D, ever mentions that:
"D&D is a game where you must have perception checks and tactical combat - and NEVER about action combat and must always out-of-combat challenges, NEVER just hack and slash, because I say so, because I decree myself the loyal keeper of all things D&D, even though I've never been officially part of the brand ever in my life and I'm really just a nerd with a computer"
You people want to squawk that this game isn't Dungeons & Dragons? Fine. You take your narrow, subjective view of what D&D is and go play it. This despite the fact your session will alter dramatically from the way I play D&D on the table, or how just about every other table plays the game, because every rule in D&D is just a guideline anyway, which by the way, has been the centerpiece of the game since it inception.
Meanwhile, the rest of us will take a far more objective view, a recognition that D&D is a brand, a pantheon of products across different mediums, rules, mechanics and platforms that have evolved, changed and been customized through the decades in a thousand different ways. That's its legacy, that's its tradition and that is most assuredly its future: change, evolution and migration into new mediums and methods of play.
In other words, no two gaming tables are ever exactly alike, that's always been the beauty of the game, it adapts to "hack-n-slash" campaigns, it allows for "puzzle solving" dungeons, or like I play, a game where we spend most of the night role playing and hardly ever rolling dice! All are welcome and all are Dungeons & Dragons.
This game (NWO), most definitely embodies the spirit of this game as outlined by its very creators. It is, most importantly, designated as Dungeons & Dragon by the only entity that gets to objectively make such claims, the stewards of the brand, where it has been embraced, praised and is a vital part of the game's future.
But please, continue to list reams and reams of mechanical minutia that you think is sacrosanct. Despite the fact those mechanics will change, are changing and are ever-evolving and absolutely, definitively and by any reasonable objective measure never defined the game in the first place.
Honestly, some of you fanbois just need to get over the fact that you'll NEVER get to define what D&D is, never. Your opinions are not only obscure and screamed into a vacuum, they simply do not matter. The opinions that do matter on this subject, have long ago heralded this game as Dungeons & Dragons.
And thank merciful Allah, they did NOT precisely follow the mechanics of 4e, it would have made for a terrible MMO. Because 4e was designed for pen-and-paper and vinyl miniatures on a playmat with polyhedron dice. This game (NWO) has been designed for high-end processors, object-oriented programming and 3-D computer modeling.
I can't believe how reactionary some of you are, as if even the slightest variance from your precious Player's Handbook is sacrilegious. Well prepare to have that PH become replaced in 12 months, with RADICAL changes, in many ways, far more radical than variance you see in this very game, you seem to want to endlessly label as "inauthentic".
Wake up, you guys don't define the brand. Rules do not define the brand. Mechanics do not define the brand. It never has. It never will.
And since we're on the subject:
1. You CAN actively DM.
2. You CAN set up all kinds of non-combat challenges and puzzles.
3. You CAN set up scenarios where you must cooperate to succeed.
Because all three of those things are feature the RP community has been doing in MMOs for, oh, I dunno, a decade now, if not more. You can't seriously ever have established yourself in a genuine MMO RP community and not have come across all three of those things.
So clearly many of you don't even have experience with the very thing you are criticizing, because active DMing has existed in MMOs since the days of Ultima Online. The fact we can augment our DMing with the Foundry, is all the more reason to praise this video game as a bright and wonderful future for Dungeons & Dragons.
Merciful Allah, I beg you, let these people learn that MMOs are the future of RP and that RP is just as bright, creative, interactive and challenging as any RP at a gaming table. The possibilities are not limited, in fact you have even more potential, greater capability than you can ever achieve on a gaming table with dice.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
In D&D, players were concerned with 6 primary stats, and each of them should have an impact on the character when faced with other in-game situations (buying for less with high CHA, spells become more powerful with higher INT, etc.) Each of these stats need to have an effective and visual significance when altered, if only just reflect that your character is progressing in some way.
And I'll have to agree with visionstorm about the active DMing. Even if you charged potential DMs like a subscription fee for a persistent world to actively DM, it would break huge barriers and doubts, as well as increase the lifespan and replayability of this game.
but seriously I'm happy with the way the game is set up so far, I do think it would make for a bit more interesting dungeon play if people were able to search for those extra secrets while dungeon delving and discover alternate paths, bosses, and treasures rather then having a visible a pile of shinnies on a book shelf sitting there for all to see :P.
Ravenloft
Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
And please refrain insulting remarks, this is the place for discussion, not rants.
Tiko
Certainly some of the requests will take longer than others...some things without a doubt will have to be a post-launch focus but they were simply things which came directly out of the "This is D&D" Thread and other threads discussing the D&D or lack of it portrayed in Neverwinter.
Just to give a bit more insight on powers though, powers in this game is what combat revolves around and the fact the game at this point feeds players power-ups in different powers automatically leaves something much desired. While adding more powers is something I feel is needed the main point I wanted to present was the importance that players need to be able to choose which powers to focus on.
As I said leveling up should present this warm-hearted 'yes!' feeling and this just doesn't happen in the game at this time and I feel a large part of that has to do with the fact a lot of the level-up stats are applied automatically. There aren't new powers unlocked frequently at all and if it's not a new power the damage increase is applied automatically so it's something that can be ignored.
What I wanted to present as the main effect from both the Power and Feat Section is that players have to care about leveling up and the easiest way to do that is to make them look forward to something when leveling.
And I remember reading that visionstorm01 and included a lot of your feedback from that thread when developing this.
Note your stance on out of combat challenges and my skills section.
Tactical combat I can agree on but I felt that is something which could be addressed in the future and I really wanted to focus on apects which are not only important but also achievable in the near future. Remember this will be an action combat game no matter what and honestly although it's different there's nothing wrong with it. The combat they already supplied is fun and invoking on its own so while it could use more depth this isn't something that will be absolutely crucial to have early on.
Cooperation is something which we might be able to discuss better after BWE2 if they adjust the difficulty for it. There's a few reserved spots in the thread for expansion for when some other details are able to be better examined.
On top of that while solo gameplay might not be some people's preferred methods it still does, to some extent need to be an option. NWN is definitely a D&D game through and through and I could solo anything any DM put in front of me and while I enjoyed playing with others and role-playing my uncle preferred doing things on his own for the additional challenge...plus he doesn't play well with others haha. Soloing in PnP just isn't...erm...logical. If people could and not feel silly doing so they probably would.
As for Active DMing...that would be the dream project years from now. As I said in the This is D&D thread that would be a development project on the scale of creating the foundry. On top of that giving that much power to players in an MMO, to the developers, must feel akin to trusting a drow matron mother with their lives. A DM Clients would be a way far away dream.
Furthermore I have played many D&D video games over the years and only one had a DM Client. Would it help in being more like D&D, yes, but it's by no means a requirement.
One thing that people have brought up that could use a more in depth look is the core attributes (Str, Dex...etc.) and their importance. What could make these feel more like they do in standard D&D?
As far as I know, this thread was about addressing flaws within the game, and possibly suggesting an alternative to improve what SOME people dislike about the game as it stands. What's wrong with suggesting a better game? And if peoples' general attitude towards Cryptic's business practices are any indication, it looks like you have nothing to worry about! Why so serious?
Maybe buff up the bonus for stats big time.
Anything over 10 gives a 5% bonus.
STR 18 40% melee dmg increase
Con 18 40% HP increase
Dex 18 40% mitigation increase
Int 18 40% Spell dmg increase
Wis 18 40% healing increase
Cha 18 40% Companion stats increase
there would have to be a cap to %, as well as under 10 having negative impact.
This would give stats more meaning, such as, a guardian fighter could choose high hp's, damage, or avoidance.
Tiko
Skills haven't always had a mechanical use in the game but they have always been there.
Example:
The DM says, "You travel down the corridor and you enter a large dimly lit room. The only object in this room is an decorated slab altar with a small brazier on top but the room smells stale, damp and for some reason tingles the hair on the back of your neck."
That's the point when roleplaying kicks in and the players start freaking out asking questions. That room screams 'turn the hell around' yet obviously that's not an option otherwise you might as well watch an episode of My Little Pony. Even before perceptions checks and other skills were added these were roleplayed between the players and the DM. Intimiation, bribery and persuasion didn't always exist as a skills system but it was always roleplayed with the DM.
Mechanics were added in second and third edition to put rules and regulations on aspects where were already role-played out between the players and DM but these have and always will be an important feature in D&D.
Neither those mechanics or the DM Roleplaying exist in Neverwinter and that is a huge issue. That is a huge aspect of PnP D&D which is missing from the gameplay. When I thought about it I realized that I cared more about the exploration, 'wth is going on in this room' aspect than the fights.
Neverwinter needs to do more to emulate that aspect of D&D.
I understand your point of view and I agree with it but I am not going to tolerate this thread being derailed. This thread exists for the purpose of getting precise feedback from players who do not feel as you or I do so that that argument can end. I will not allow this thread to be a repeat of the "This is/not D&D" back and forth argument thread.
Same thing with the Paragon Paths. We've got the choice of...one path. Making it Paragon Path. When there are three options in the PhB alone.
But just add penalties for use without weapon feats.
I understand that this is likely not going to happen due to the pigeon-holing that goes along with "builds" standing in for classes, but that kind of customisation - like having the capacity to create and play a mage who wields a scythe or two longswords into battle, whilst decked out with mage-armour, and such - is part and parcel of truly feeling like a character is yours.
It was one of my biggest gripes with Dragon age 2, coming from DA:O that they took away almost all of the freedom to use stuff that the devs hadn't deemed "class appropriate". It feels like a case of dumbing down to appeal to the lowest common-denominator at the cost of insulting the intellect of the original player-base. Modernism i believe it's called
In any case, I feel that customization, not only in terms of look, but in terms of flexibility within a dungeoneering group, or in terms of equipment goes a LOOOOONG way towards making a game feel D&D-ish.
Also, please add buyable extra weapons, like a stack of javelins or throwing axes, that you can assign to a hotkey and use a few times per fight, as well as ranged weapons such as bows, slings and crossbows for ALL classes.
I really hope the devs actually take the concerns pertaining to having inflexible "builds" as opposed to classes to heart, and make some adjustments - even if it's just allowing any class to use any armour (weapons I know would break their animations..) But ultimately I think to make the game feel truly D&D, allow us to play as a fighter, a cleric or a wizard. And then allow US to decide what type. Hell allow us to change what type by equipping different stuff between adventures. I know that as a Wizard in P&P dungeons and dragons, I'd just prepare spells based on what I expected to fight, and switched it up between almost every dungeon.
I was NEVER just a "controller" or whatever. I was a magic-user. My choice of spells allowed me to switch roles if need be.
TL;DR: 1) Change back to classes, or at the very least allow any class to use any armour and weapon.
2) add in expendable weapons such as throwing axes and javelins, alchemist's fire and acid flasks, for use with any class. As well as x-bows and bows.
This game definitely needs more non-combat encounters. For one, this will create clear, and distinct roles between the multitude of classes that we'll eventually have. Even if a Warlock can bombard everything to the abyss before a Rogue even sneaks up to the monster, that Warlock still can't replace the Rogue's role in getting through your typical dungeon obstacles. Skills are pretty much well-covered by the above posts, so I would like to delve more into how Stats can provide some non-combat actions.
Anyone familiar with NWN2 would have seen some dialogue options that have nothing to do with your skill rolls, but are based on your stats instead. For example:
-a strong fighter pushing a heavy boulder to clear the way(STR)
-an intuitive monk figuring out a rhyme (WIS)
-a studious wizard solving an ordinary, non-Arcana related, puzzle (INT)
-a burly barbarian going for a drinking contest (CON)
Those are just some examples, but the general idea is for 1) to give more meaning purpose behind those stats aside from just "numbers", and 2) to let something like a STR based Rogue be even more distinct than a DEX based Rogue (since both will still have the same thievery Skills).
*feels stupid for forgetting that key part of D&D*
On a scale from 1 to 10, how much do I want the developers to work on ABILITY SCORES right now?
6 out of 10.
Also I do like the power slots we have so far, loved the GW2 way to simplify the gameplay by giving you only 10 slots while allowing you to switch between skills while out of combat for a required upcoming tasks, and I even like the NW's way better. That let us focus on the combat instead of searching powers and their cooldowns through 50 slots and perform weird combinations of keys to use most of them, that's madness, we're playing a game, not twister! Oh and that doesn't limit the number of powers you can get to use, you can switch between them while out of combat, and it doesn't matter if you have 5 slots or 40, people will end up using the same powers for the same content anyway (which by the way is a short list of them, so again you don't need 40 slots), so that is not related to the number of slots.
Despite of that, rest of the list is great, Feats, Skills, and the "powers shouldn't have levels" and "allow players to pick powers" from a list are all perfect.
First i will add my own idea about character customisation/leveling. I feel that having the end "builds" already there from level 1 is not so interesting, I think in this game it would be better to have to begin with like level 1-10 just class, So you start as a fighter, then at level 10 have 3 choices or splits, Guardian fighter, Great weapon fighter and one other path, as this class has not been done yet it would be locked. Also could have more than 3 paths, or just the 2 and add as you add more paths. Possibly from 10-20 combine similar paths, then split them at 20 or 30 again for final class. This would atleast give the impression of choice, even though it could be fairly predetermined least from 30 onwards, the skills from 1-10 would have to be comon to all rogues, 10-20/30 would need to be common to those builds. I also think it would not take too much to change the class progression this way, least from a game play propective , not sure about programing.
This leads to feats, I do not think every feat needs to be available to all classes. However more choice and a choice of feats needs to be available for each class, with possible specefic ones with each class split(if using my above idea, or in each paragon path as now). There are feats that just increase dmaage, hp ac etc, they are fine as a tree, but their should also be some that add funtionality, in a different system.
Powers seem ok, though using my leveling idea again powers would from 1-10 would need to be common, then 10-20/30 shared with that split and so on. It is also possible that a new skill from a class split would be used instead of a common early level move.
I also think that maybe the at wills should be one attack and one defensive/avoidance move to make it feel more action. With one of the next tier up attacks not having a CD. Also with 2 daily power slot eventually, it might be nice to have 2 spheres to fill or slightly different resourses so you can use both, but not nessecarily at the same time. Its is a choice at moment, but with only the 7 powers I think alittle restrictive still, should be able to use all powers you have loaded up.
Not really, 20 to 25 are not that uncommon numbers at all in a mid to high level character.
+ive
It is good that powers are varying differently from each other
-ive
Are only useful in combat. A power like sneak and others should have a passive mode and combat mode. In non-combat zones, sneak should be 24/7 while in combat sneak can be as shown in videos. Similarly, fireball should have a large casting time out of combat with flashy effects that set fire to environment while its use in combat should be different.
Powers should have direct correlation with stats as in 4e. While some powers should use STR as damage modifier, others should use DEX or WIS - just like in 4e. These powers should be available across the class and not builds. So a Guardian fighter and TWF should be able to share powers like stances or things that are not weapon dependent.
When using hold or crowd control, they should have disabling effect of more than ten seconds on crits rather than just 1-2 seconds. If PvP is a concern, it can be defined separately for PvP and PvE.
Powers should be more strategic. If you are able to target head, it should act as crit and not reduce the same hp as when you target leg(headshots).
Should be included in object dialogs (You cast fireball on wooden chest)
-ive
Feats need to have proficiencies - weapons and armor
Feats should be specific to things like race, deities, class etc.
Feats should be choosable from a large pool of feats.
Need to be relooked. They are more important than game itself many a times.
Torches to be held in hand and different visions like darkvision, dim-light vision etc depending on races and feats.
Saves should depend on ability stats as in 4e. i.e. (DEX+INT)'s greatest should contribute to reflex save. This can be achieved in game by reducing the time-delay in firing the ability when you press shift to dodge. Similarly, STR+CON can see to endurance check which should also limit what you carry in your inventory and other non-combat skills.
Combos - a power should effect other. Like freezing someone and using shield bash should instantly shatter all lower level critters (insta-kill) with cooler animation. Similarly, fire should make penetration of physical attacks easier. Making enemies sleep should allow for coup de grace(with 5% probability of success or something). Things like that.
You should be able to fire an arrow, without having enemy in reticule - and all such powers. These powers cn then be used to activate objects which are out of reach like just across the pit or on the wall.
Clerics should be able to raise dead/ressurect which should differentiate them from other classes. Also turn undead. Similarly fighters should be able to pick heavier objects and clear paths while other classes can not. Rogue should similarly be able to pickpocket.
etc.
As I have stated before, I believe that if cryptic would issue a statement saying that they will be working toward more character customization (Power, feat, etc. choices, etc.) then we have a better chance of getting more players for the game. More players is better right?
Whenever I talk about NW to my DDO guild one of the main questions was about class/character customization. Some of them were happy that you will be able to really customize your avatars looks (I did mention it seemed limited in beta but that it was beta so we will wait to see if it gets better) others were TOTALLY put off about the autoleveling and total lack of player choice in powers/feats/etc. So I think that needs to happen in a big way.
Non Combat skills/stat tests are way cool and I fully back them! I love that stuff.
We need the ability to customize things like weapons, holy symbols, etc. Let a cleric of Selune use a different symbol than one of Sune, etc.
What I'm thinking falls more along the lines of side quests, or alternate ways and/or shortcuts to finish a quest. For example:
-The house of an npc is being haunted. He asks you to go to a nearby temple to ask for assistance there. But as a -Cleric-, you can simply do it yourself.
-Part of a dungeon needs the torches to be lit. The quest asks you to find some tinder and a match to start a fire. But a -Wizard- can just magically set the torches on fire.
These are just a couple of examples, but the idea is to offer more class-specific interactions.
-edit-
Oh an another thing: Languages! Definitely work in languages in there somehow. I'm not expecting some texts to be written actual Draconic. But maybe something like, if the text is written in "Draconic" and your character doesn't know it, then it just appears as gibberish on your screen. But if you know it, then you can read it as normal.
Or for quests. As an encounter, you come across a screaming goblin. Having no idea what he's saying, you go ahead and bash his skull as usual. But if you knew Goblin, maybe you would have learned that he was screaming and running away from a troll ambush, giving you more options on how to proceed - like you get the quest option to circle around the ambush.
Ambisinisterr's 2nd post was very well written and the suggested changes are much needed by the current game.
In response to this question and addition to his summary I would recommend the following changes:
Merging current launch classes (example guardian fighter and great weapon figher into figher) into fully fleshed out ones mirroring the ones in the official books, then expanding the class roster gradually with a lot more from the official supplement material for use in the cash shop.
Reworking the combat system from the current percentage, stat stacking and armor damage mitigation one to a more authentic hit bonus vs armor class system including saving throws vs conditions & effects. A system based off the 6 primary attributes.
Reworking the 6 primary attributes from a percentile bonus to a more meaningful "small numbers, big difference" type like in the reference material.
Using Weapon & Armor statistics like: damage 1d8+2 instead of 113-235 damage and AC18 instead of Armor rating 564.
Just my response to D&D is the story.
I do think skills and feats really help define a character and how they add to the story not just the combat. I do think D&D is the DM's story and a part of that story is my character and how it interacts with the story/world.
Very Nice read here, it is going to be hard to define what D&D is to everybody. The D&D pure-bloods can understand the complexities of what the core of what true D&D is especially if they played the PNP with a good DM.
For me, it was all about hearing the details in the story enabling me to see it all in my mind, with good story telling by a good DM, who needed a video game. In all honesty though we all said to ourselves at one time or another " Man, This would be so cool if we were able to play this together online " even if at the time we didn't understand the amount of code required to do such a thing.
There will never be any substitution for the mind as far as I'm concerned, well.....virtual 4K video could scratch the surface I suppose.
No..... for me D&D is about story, plot, the skills of a " Party " member, the " Need " if you will....of someone that added to the Groups complexity.
Thats what I found in alot of online games now, everyone wants to have bragging rights that they did something solo. If it was something to be done solo that is different. I never did understand that frame of mind in a social game anyway but, to each their own.
I hope everything gets worked out with NWO so I can give it a shot, and even though it may not be everything I do hope it will be, I ( we ) have to understand that at the start is is being designed for the masses. So there will be enough there to hopefully satisfy the True-Bloods, but Cryptic has to pull in the console players to, and I see this and have posted about the huge damage numbers, very much like a console game, personally I hate that, I don't need to see those types of numbers to feel I am doing something, just give me a HP line and when it's no line left it's dead ( Hopefully ).
Well.... I hope I didn't stray too far from the core of this thread and I'm sure people will know where I was trying to go with it. So in closing I would just like to say that even though it may not be perfect at the start, I feel where things are really going to shine is within the community content ( Foundry ) as this will be creations where the majority of stuff will be created by True-Bloods and hopefully some of the really good authors from the NWN days and the Vault.
My only gripe on this will be that the creators will lose their rights to the ideas and content they create, due to their use of the Foundrey,
There has to be some way for creators to recoup something for their time if they bring these ideas for others to take part in, the thought that one day I may contribute something for others to take part in and then that creation becomes Cryptics, that they can use the way they want, that just doesn't seem right to me. My Ideas, my time, and then someone can swoop!!!! in and take it as their own just because I used a tool. Ok.... fair enough for, " Well you did use our tool " arguement, but come together as a group and work something out, because community content that gets high votes brings in and/or keeps players in NWO.
Here is what I suggest, have some type of app that people can get that will allow the playing of and voting of community content, ( very similar to Vault, of NWN ). The content that gets the highest votes can then get a serious look at by Cryptic/PWE and maybe some agreement can be made with the Author to make it available as a mod for others to buy/play on the main servers.
Maybe there could be a virtual toon of the creator in game to get the quest from and in the choices I would have the option of sending that creator a small token ( virtual coin ) that could be coded to credit that person some Zen to their account in show of support of their creation.
ARGH!!!! I hope people see where I'm trying to go with this, and this is falling from the scope of the thread so I'll end here.
Thanks for taking the time to read this and take care all,
Hope to see you in game sometime, Cheers!
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
-Yes Cryptic will, technically, have all rights to what you make but I kind of doubt thatwill have any real bearing at all. I just don't see any situation in which that's a problem unless you write a book or make a movie based on your Foundry Content...in which case due to medium translations it shouldn't be a huge issue. This will be more in lines that you can't sell or buy other people's foundry content.
-There *is* a rating system and quality authors will be promoted and gain additional benefits though there's little to no information on anything past the rating system.
-Again there will be a 'DM Level System' or was supposed to be. The concept is that Cryptic might work with prominent authors in order to improve the Foundry and other features. Again no information released but this was stated about six months ago.
-You can donate Astral Diamonds to authors you like in gratitude for them developing content.
All in all everything you suggested has already been done haha