ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2013
As for the rest of you I am glad you're all agreeing with what has been stated thus far and thanks for the additional ideas.
I'm not sure how likely it will be to lower the numbers...probably not very likely at all...but yeah I hate these big numbers mumbo jumbo things too but not enough to argue to get them removed. A bit of an analogy: I laugh when I compare Magic the Gathering to Yu-Gih-Oh...Magic is arguably geared for 15+ (more like 20+) and yet the numbers are single and double digits. Yu-Gih-Oh is easily geared for 8-15 year olds and has four digit numbers. I wouldn't play Yu-Gih-Oh just because I think it's stupid to not only make everything double digit math but then add on two meaningless zeroes onto every number. And this is how I know many of you are seeing Neverwinter...
I love D&D's simplicity. As complex as it is having everything revolve a handful of dice and mental math is perfection...but of course this isn't always ideal for MMO's...and I have no idea why. It would be nice to round off the numbers but *sighs*
That's a fight for a different person
As for the rest of you I am glad you're all agreeing with what has been stated thus far and thanks for the additional ideas.
I'm not sure how likely it will be to lower the numbers...probably not very likely at all...but yeah I hate these big numbers mumbo jumbo things too but not enough to argue to get them removed. A bit of an analogy: I laugh when I compare Magic the Gathering to Yu-Gih-Oh...Magic is arguably geared for 15+ (more like 20+) and yet the numbers are single and double digits. Yu-Gih-Oh is easily geared for 8-15 year olds and has four digit numbers. I wouldn't play Yu-Gih-Oh just because I think it's stupid to not only make everything double digit math but then add on two meaningless zeroes onto every number. And this is how I know many of you are seeing Neverwinter...
I love D&D's simplicity. As complex as it is having everything revolve a handful of dice and mental math is perfection...but of course this isn't always ideal for MMO's...and I have no idea why. It would be nice to round off the numbers but *sighs*
That's a fight for a different person
I would like to see the numbers lowered some, but not down to tabletop levels. This is my opinion, if weapons damages are going to be around tabletop level numbers is is extremely difficult to "tweek" damages for balance purposes. If a sword does 1-8 damage it is hard to tweek the damage down by 5% without adding decimal places which doesn't work. If you keep 1-8 and round decimal places off you have made no change really or much more of a change than you might want. I would be happy with just multiplying everything by 10 from basic table top. Now this doesn't just apply to tweaking some item that lets you do +1% damage also has a problem when dealing with very low numbers. The biggest problem is even multiplying everything by 10 won't fix all those problems However 5k damage numbers are just too high even for me.
I would like to see the numbers lowered some, but not down to tabletop levels. This is my opinion, if weapons damages are going to be around tabletop level numbers is is extremely difficult to "tweek" damages for balance purposes. If a sword does 1-8 damage it is hard to tweek the damage down by 5% without adding decimal places which doesn't work. If you keep 1-8 and round decimal places off you have made no change really or much more of a change than you might want. I would be happy with just multiplying everything by 10 from basic table top. Now this doesn't just apply to tweaking some item that lets you do +1% damage also has a problem when dealing with very low numbers. The biggest problem is even multiplying everything by 10 won't fix all those problems However 5k damage numbers are just too high even for me.
Meh. Five percent is five percent, regardless of how high the number goes. The only thing that really changes is perspective.
The feature that, in my opinion, makes a game very D&D-esque, is having to make decisions on a micro scale. Searching for hidden secrets, choosing which way to go, which lever to pull, what phrase to say, to fight or flee, and face the unique consequences of such decisions. Being forced to face challenges and puzzles in a dungeon so that, when the dungeon is over, the user feels a weight lift off their chest and they sigh in satisfaction. It's all in level design and story telling.
I think people are seriously over-reacting. there's a reason why 4E was chosen for mmo's and that's due to the model of that E was made to be much more simple. No there should be no changes outside of more noncombat scenarios and outside of mini games. The rest is fine and noone has seen past level 30 yet.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2013
Remember, this thread is about how to make Neverwinter feel more like D&D for those who don't feel the game is already D&D-esque enough.
The thread is not a debate or a discussion on whether or not it is. Any posts of that nature will be deemed Off Topic and removed.
Feel free to say you feel that the improvements aren't good ideas but only if you disagree with them. Arguing the suggestions aren't needed because the game is already D&D will also be labelled as Off Topic.
The1tiggle,
Most of what I suggested has very little to do with seeing past level 30 or not. Sure there are more powers past level 30 but the most important aspect that I presented, IMO, is that players should be able to choose which powers to learn and upgrade every level rather than be on a pre-determined set-up.
Feats and non-combat skills are little to no different from level 1 to level 60. You do get paragon level "feats"" which are likely paragon specific but it's still not *any* D&D Feat System. Open up your fourth edition Player's Handbook and compare the feats in there to a skill tree. A skill tree doesn't do feats any justice, sorry Cryptic.
And skills...skills don't get any better or worse with levels. I don't like pointing out how horrid the system is, truly, but it's just so basic it's as if they only added it simply because it's an "important" part of D&D. Skills got boiled down to opening some random chests in the world...words can't describe how undeveloped the skills system is.
Going past level 30 won't change any suggestion other than adding more powers. Everything else is completely level independent.
...blablabla... fanboy usual soup... blablabla... then this --> this one thing alone is far more than any other game has ever done and is MORE LIKE D&D than ANYTHING ELSE ever done.
Achievement unlocked : EPIC FAIL!
Anyway, this topic looks like a good idea, but what can make us think that any of the solutions proposed here are going to be seriously tested by the devs?
Anyway, this topic looks like a good idea, but what can make us think that any of the solutions proposed here are going to be seriously tested by the devs?
I guess the other option is just to do nothing, make no suggestion and pray to the deity of your choosing to intervene. Maybe they won't listen, maybe they will listen. But if no one makes any suggestions they definately will have nothing to think about listening to.
Meh. Five percent is five percent, regardless of how high the number goes. The only thing that really changes is perspective.
No it isn't, not if you are rounding decimals as you can't apply 1.7 hitpoints of damage if your hit points that don't allow for decimal places. if you have a weapon that does 1-8 and you up its damage by 5% a roll of 8 becomes 8.4 and that can't be applied if the hitpoints do not have decimals. So it would have to either be dropped to 8 (now +5% is not +5%) or rounded up to 9 which again is not +5%.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2013
On devs listening or not:
I personally know they read these forums but very rarely post. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't read, listen or agree with what's being said.
Nobody knows if they will take this thread and implement changes based on it but the only way to guarantee they won't is to not put the thoughts and opinions out there.
On Damage:
The other option many games try to go is to have hidden numbers beyond the scenes. 1d8's are 100d8's but simply round them off for simplicity. The problem with this is that hidden numbers are often noticed by the subconcious and tends to irritate people.
The human mind is an amazing thing, we probably register more mathmatics on the subconcious level than the subconcious level. There was an experiment which presents a number of blue and yellow dots and asks the subject to state if there are more blue or yellow dots as fast as possible. What they found was that the more people thought about the answer the less likely they were to get it right...the "gut feeling" was often the right answer.
When games run hidden numbers in the background our minds do notice those numbers on a subconcious level. Those good old "flukes" when damage is suddenly much higher or lower than it should be...
Personally I'd like to see them reduce the numbers by a decimal as suggested, the idea of hidden numbers is something I know I in particular catch on to quick and personally get irritated of quickly. Large numbers might improve game accuracy and balancing but it's not something I personally like to see. I'd rather see 100-1,000 damage rather than 1,000-10,000.
Once numbers pass a thousand I personally lose touch with their value.
No it isn't, not if you are rounding decimals as you can't apply 1.7 hitpoints of damage if your hit points that don't allow for decimal places. if you have a weapon that does 1-8 and you up its damage by 5% a roll of 8 becomes 8.4 and that can't be applied if the hitpoints do not have decimals. So it would have to either be dropped to 8 (now +5% is not +5%) or rounded up to 9 which again is not +5%.
But again, that relies on the assumption that decimals are rounded. at the end of the day, five percent is still five percent, wether it's 8.4, or 8400. (Though admittedly, this relies on the assumption that enemies' health will scale proportionally to your damage, which is a fair assumption given that this is an MMORPG)
But again, that relies on the assumption that decimals are rounded. at the end of the day, five percent is still five percent, wether it's 8.4, or 8400. (Though admittedly, this relies on the assumption that enemies' health will scale proportionally to your damage, which is a fair assumption given that this is an MMORPG)
Out of just over a dozen MMOs that I have run numbers on I have only seen one game that doesn't not "adjust" (by rounding or dropping) decimal places . So it is a assumption that NW will as well but supported by my experience. A way would be to look at STO and CO and see if they do being they are all made by the same company and use the same engine, it is more likely that they would handle decimals in the same way. I personally have no idea about them, never really got into them so never done the number crunching on them to see if their math holds up.
Out of just over a dozen MMOs that I have run numbers on I have only seen one game that doesn't not "adjust" (by rounding or dropping) decimal places . So it is a assumption that NW will as well but supported by my experience. A way would be to look at STO and CO and see if they do being they are all made by the same company and use the same engine, it is more likely that they would handle decimals in the same way. I personally have no idea about them, never really got into them so never done the number crunching on them to see if their math holds up.
Well you can always just hide the decimals, but you run into some of the problems listed above. But I agree that i'd rather the numbers remain smaller. 25006842 damage is just needlessly excessive and over complicates. Usually it is the result of a game sticking around a long time and increasing the level cap. It doesn't often just happen right out of the gate.
Well you can always just hide the decimals, but you run into some of the problems listed above. But I agree that i'd rather the numbers remain smaller. 25006842 damage is just needlessly excessive and over complicates. Usually it is the result of a game sticking around a long time and increasing the level cap. It doesn't often just happen right out of the gate.
Yeah no doubt, after the 2nd expansion in most MMOs numbers have gotten pretty much out of control. They are already out of control in NW
Yeah no doubt, after the 2nd expansion in most MMOs numbers have gotten pretty much out of control. They are already out of control in NW
Kinda makes you wonder why they started with higher numbers. It can't be simpler to manage from a design perspective.
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elthiruilMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I wasn't replying to you, so yet have a go at me? a forum is a forum of ideas, I gave mine, multiple times (valid ideas too), whatever dude, I'll make sure I don't intrude on which is what you consider to be your "forum"/thread, which is far from the truth. Delete this post - the other one too, and forget that I ever had the sense to participate in anything of yours.
LAME....
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2013
It is a 'not D&D' thread in a form, it's a thread on how to make the improve the D&D representation in Neverwinter based on the feedback that it is not enough of core D&D representation.
Doesn't matter whether it is or is not a D&D game, the thread is based off that feedback and as such is suggesting ways to improve the game for those who are not yet won over. If you're already won over, great, but this isn't a debate whether or not it is D&D thread....it's a way to make it more D&D regardless of whether you're won over or not.
Somebody posted, probably on the second page, in response to ryger's post 'would these proposed changes hurt your experience?' and that's the bottom line. I don't care whether you're won over or not, the solutions proposed should win over more and improve the experience for those who are already won over, if the suggestions won't improve your experience then let me know *why* you don't agree with the proposed modifications.
In the end what this comes down to is actually reading before posting
In conclusion consider this my last response to that matter for a long while and get back on topic or else posts will vanish >.<
I've been looking a little around forum etc. since I ran onto some demonstration video over net.
So far I have few concerns since D&D is the reason why I would be getting into this game. It has very little else to offer than any other MMO game already on market, and they probably already do a lot of things better.
1. Dungeon master client. As far as I know there will be none. You can only do dungeons and whatsoever and let people play them. This is not really D&D. D&D will need a storyteller. Granted it is good that content can be done without DM also (in MMO world)
2. Yes, I know fanbois don't like nwn comparison but nwn1 was successful because of ability to form selective communities with their own enforced rules. That quaranteed there was a roleplaying community who shared similar playstyles and could go on making up their stories together. If you add up MMO style random people in same area result is not really as much D&D as that.
3. Character creation seems horrible. Only MMO trinity characters?? stealth rogue, melee dps/tank, cc and heal. Seriously? Nothing D&D there. I know 4e made D&D a lot more straightforward but there's more space for flexibility than this. Not one character type I typically play in D&D is represented with current race/class choices.
More flexibility to character creation, DM tools, ability to form playgroups with limited or maybe password protected access user-created areas for example. Might just do the trick.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2013
1. Not happening...at least not anytime soon...nor is that a requirement. There's several dozen D&D Games on the market and only one (two) have a DM Client. NWN 1 & 2. The logic behind DM Clients being an absolute necessity just doesn't add up
Certainly a nice feature but not a requirement.
2. I agree...but not going to happen at least for the time being. All UGC will be instanced at launch but they do hope to add some persistent support in the future. In any case, nice feature we might have later but not a requirement for the game to be D&D. Hell, half the D&D Games on the market are arguably single player (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale?)
3. That's Fourth Edition. You call them Trinity but Fourth Edition calls them Leader, Controller, Defender, Striker. Those titles are taken right out of the Player Handbooks. The only thing, beyond the expansion requested on the front page which is different from the PHB is the fact they don't allow free form classes and do limit build choices. That alone isn't a huge issue in my opinion and absolutely not going to be adjusted for launch or any point soon after (first post states this suggestion is barking up the wrong tree).
If you look at the game as if you want it to be NWN3 you will be sorely disappointed. The game has exponential potential but it won't be NWN3. It's going to be an MMO based on Fourth Edition Rules and by the fact that it is an MMO certain things you might be accustomed to in NWN just won't be possible and while NWN was great in so many ways it is also completely unique.
NWN brought interactive D&D experiences to a new level but those features can't be held up as requirements for all D&D Games.
1. Not happening...at least not anytime soon...nor is that a requirement. There's several dozen D&D Games on the market and only one (two) have a DM Client. NWN 1 & 2. The logic behind DM Clients being an absolute necessity just doesn't add up
Certainly a nice feature but not a requirement.
And out of those dozens, which are game culture milestones? :P
Also, one other thing this game is missing are terrain effects, like forests and jungle reducing the effect of ranged attacks and impeding movement.
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xdreeganxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I've read this thread from front to back, and even though I'm not a D&D expert or anything, I still feel the urge to put some thoughts out there based on what I've read, and the research I've done.
Out of Combat Experiences.
Your out-of-combat ideas are phenominal. It would be amazing to experience using my skills to solve puzzles, and find unique and interesting things in the world with my party, or by myself. However, I do wonder how possible it is, with the size of the world being as it is. I don't exactly know how small or open the game world is. But it's something to think about. Hidden passageways in dungeons, secret chests and maybe even a party buff that your Wizard needs to decypher to help, or even be required to kill certain bosses (particularly at end-game) would be a truly remarkable, and fulfilling experience. I agree with everything said 100%.
Player Customization: Too much?
Now, onto something I disagree with. The MMO platform is a bad place to let people have TOO much customization. Reasons which I will explain as simply as I can. A greatsword wielding mage, wearing leather armor, and casting spells. Sounds pretty HAMSTER, I know. But, look at it from the other side of the coin, from the developer's standpoint. How would you balance this, for a game that's going to have PvP -and- PvE. Just that alone would be a nightmare. You've just introduce who knows how many variables into how your game's combat is going to work out. And I highly doubt they'd have enough testers to full test, tweak, and work out all the madness that could be caused by this in both realms of their game. Even their Beta phase would be extremely long if they had the resources to maintain it. It would be in beta for a very long time just to get everything tested. And if they couldn't the game would probably be a broken disaster at launch. -a) What benefit would this customization have for the player, and for the players playing against this player? What would be the downfalls of a mage picking up a sword and some sturdier armor? How would you balance that? Unless it was just a total action game and no one cared about "fair" just going around 1-2 shotting everyone in brawls that have no real purpose other than to watch blood spray and all the pretty lights. -b) Propose you -did- find a way to balance out this expensive equation. What then? What's the purpose of building the character YOUR absolute 100% way? Assume they have everything balanced. What's the point? You'll probably be weaker than another build version of the character you have. And unless one certain build, or tactic, or w/e is just completely broken, eventually people will find out what "works" and what "doesn't work". Optimal solutions. Why do things your way, when eventually everyone else will pass you by? And if the designers want to keep things "Switched up" by that time it'll just be easy to figure out. (Hard-line. If you want THIS kind of customization, just play D&D as it is. The only thing you'll be missing is pretty graphics, and a different combat system). -c) Finally, aside from appeasing players and letting them have it their way (Burger King), what will this do for the game itself? Chances are, to account for all these variables and to keep players who built their character their way becoming unfeasible to play in certain content, players will cry foul. To prevent this, the game will undoubtedly be dumbed down to the most simple system. With little depth, or complexity. You will end up sacrificing your idea of variety, for an illusion of variety. Things will be either extremely simple, or so complex that the burden of knowledge placed upon the player will diminish fun factor. You'll be spending so much time learning the game, you'll barely have anytime to actually play the **** thing.
Abilities and Combat in relation to the Almighty Die.
Alright, here's where things get tricky. I keep seeing this word "saving throw". I double checked to understand what it meant, and to be honest, I disagree with it. Percentage chance for something to work/not work. Bleh. Maybe on things that aren't combat related. And even in combat, they would have to be very minor. An "action" game, of any sort, whether it be single-player, or in an MMO is based around one thing. Control. And no, I'm not talking about CC. I'm talking about the player knowing that they are doing what they are being told what they're doing, and what the game allows them to do. Meaning, if I have an ability that's supposed to stun, and I use said ability, in an action environment there should only be a few factors determining the success of that; Positioning, what happens between when I use it and when it connects (such as being interrupted), and whether or not the player/monster sees what I'm doing and uses their own skill/ability to dodge/counter/mitigate my plan. You know what's not interesting. Having all these aspects PLUS an invisible roll of the dice in the background. That strips action away. Even if it's just a little bit, and is severely detrimental to the mind-set of the player. And if your stats increase your ability to use these things, then you'll get those "cookie-cutter" builds you're so afraid of. Pumping up one or two stats to make sure you're able to abuse the system as much as possible.
And finally: Progression/Powers
-a) I will assume that you were talking about all the abilities in the game. At-Will "powers" and abilities, and your Dailies. While, I agree that there should be more, I do understand that limited in certain aspects is acceptable. What's more important, ability bloat, or ability meaning. It's walking a very thin line. Will abilities become outdated at later levels? How many should we have? What makes them different? Are these differences aesthetic (animations), or is there more? Can these abilities be abused? It's a lot to think about. I haven't been able to get into Beta, but it's some brain food. You guys will be able to do more for it than I will. -b) Something I do -not- agree with, is letting players decide what powers they want. At least to a point, as always. Not having to go up a "tree" to get to something that I want would be fulfilling, absolutely. But working towards what you want is part of the fun. Secondly, I like to assume the designers are fairly intelligent. They probably want us to experience all of the abilities at sometime. This is a smart decision. It keeps your brain working. Having experienced all of these abilities at some point, near the end-game you're finally going to be given the decision as to how you want your character to finally "Be" what you want it to be. Another important part of the progression of your character in an MMO. Starting out with total freedom sounds like a sweet bite of candy. But how soon until it rots? That's a serious balancing act. -c) Completely agree on how abilities and powers should "feel" more powerful as you level them up. Something as simple as increasing the size, and AoE of a fireball would go a long way to "feeling" like you're getting somewhere. Besides numbers. Game feel is very important. So bravo on that.
Aside from what I've wrote, I've pretty much spilled my brain matter onto the keyboard and am running on empty. So, hopefully maybe I've added to the discussion and given something for you fellow players to mull over.
Arrows and Blades do not have names on them.
They are addressed, "To whom it may concern.."
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hargareshMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
How I miss Feats and Skills Selections...
All I want in a D&D game its a option to choice my skills and feats in a D&D way, build my char in a way that I feel more fun.
Playing this weekend I felt like playing more a WOW system, I cannot choose my feats and skills when Im leveling.
Ok its like all actual MMOs, but I am completely disappointed with the way they are implemented.
Tottaly agree with ambisinisterr .
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passivchickenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited April 2013
guilianolemes, I must agree with you. I would have liked more classic Dungeons and Dragons character creation rather than this system, which I believe is meant to be 'streamlined'. Still, it is possible that more customization will be released as the game progresses. It would seem that for the time being, however, for that classic feel we will have to rely upon the good old pen-and-paper style.
"Goodnight, sweet prince, and flights of angels see thee to thy rest."
I’ve always been a big fan of saving throws. I’ll try to explain the reasoning behind them. The above poster states in an action environment there should only be a few factors determining the success of a stun; positioning, if it’s interrupted, & what’s being done to counteract it.
I think there’s one more factor. Let’s say my character is simply tough as nails. I’m a Dwarf hero, carved out of granite. My skin is thick as leather, my bones hard as steel. I was raised in the roughest conditions knows to mankind. I trained in the most vigorous environment.
Consequently…
I’m really hard to stun. You can sneak up on me. You can get the jump on me. You can whack me on the head. You better be careful, though, because you might just tick me off.
You better hit really, really hard. My sissy little elf buddy on the other hand, not so much.
Thus, the saving throw. Mine is high. If you want to stun me, you have to beat it.
Here’s another example of how a saving throw might work.
There’s a vampire on the loose. He has the power to dominate people, make them do his bidding. He has been charming people and forcing them kill others for his food/pleasure. He keeps his hands clean and never kills people himself. He thinks this will keep us off his track. He’s wrong. I’m on to him.
I’m a High Priest of Torm. I’m hunting this vampire. I’m walking around a village in the middle of the night, my identity a secret. I’m not dressed as a priest. I’m dressed as a lowly peasant, baiting the vampire. I know he’s in this town; it’s just a matter of finding him. Unbeknownst to me, he’s lurking in an alley just meters away. He uses his mind controlling power to dominate me. The battle begins.
Can he automatically dominate me just because that’s his power? Heck no. I am wise and powerful. My devotion to my god is absolute, my mind pure and without sin. I wear protective talismans, imbued with the power of Torm himself. I will fight his domination with all my might. My righteousness and training won’t allow me to succumb to evil so easily. It’s a battle of wills and mine is nothing to scoff at.
My little Dwarf buddy, he’s a weak minded fool, dominated pretty easy. He’s good to have around though, because he’s tough as nails.
This thread will focus on putting a spotlight on the main issues which hold people back from calling Neverwinter a D&D Game.
While without a doubt the game does heavily use the lore, themes and does appear to be D&D on the surface many prospective players are yet to be won over because the gameplay itself doesn't feel like a Dungeons and Dragons game and there are reasons above and beyond the fact it is an action combat MMO which ruin this feeling for many.
This is merely a selection of the feedback which I have found throughout the forums which are not only key factors to D&D but are also reasonable in request. This thread can not and will not discuss the option of making this NWN3, incorporating the turn system or adding more classes/races at release. Please understand that this game is not NWN3 and will, no matter what, use an Action Combat MMORPG design. Classes and races will be added and expanded over time so this is ot going to be a key issue.
However the feedback I have collected has come down to two very important words: Character Customization.
We know the lore is there, but what else could be done to emulate the D&D Mechanics?
I have trouble calling this an "MMO". Its too arcadish. I had to use 45 healing pots in a boss fight today... on a failed attempt. Then then remaining 55 or so on the second sucessful atempt. healer wasnt healing. tank wasnt tanking. Just about every group I've been in has been like this.
Also its too cumbersome to interact with other players, like targetting them and doing a /salute and things of that nature. Just kinda arcadish feeling.
This game won't be my main "daily" mmo but will be a nice distraction from time to time. I don't see guilding up and doing the daily/social guild type stuff like traditional MMO's.. Also the hostility in this game already is throwing a huge red flag. its obvious there are a lot of warcraft transplants. Right now playing GW2 and a little LOTRO and both those games aren't plagued by these hostilities. (although I'm a lowbie in GW2, that stuff may exist at higher levels)
Also the nickel and diming is really turning me off. As long as I can maintain AD to keep scrolls/potions and adventuring necessities I'll stick around but the minute I have to spend real world money to buy necessities to adventure will be the end for me. I can see charging for cosmetic stuff, mounts, companions, buffs/boosts etc... but if spending money to run dungeons becomes a necessity, adios.
This is why I was so worried when I learned this game wouldn't be a subscription model.
Nice post Ambisinisterr. It's nice to see some ideas and criticisms coming from a good place. I can't wait for all the respective "This game sucks!" posters to go back to their other games. I don't mean that to sound elitist, but I'm one of the guys who likes Cryptic and likes Neverwinter, so I'm growing tired of all the Cryptic bashing right here on these forums. I'm just ranting, though.
I agree the game could see some improvements and I think with this sort of discussion, the game will become more polished in the near future.
For any Cryptic devs listening, of Ambi's ideas, I'm personally most interested in seeing some non-combat content/skills. Puzzles, disarming more common and more lethal traps, finding secret doors, picking locked doors and chests, bending bars as a feat of strength, etc.
Comments
I'm not sure how likely it will be to lower the numbers...probably not very likely at all...but yeah I hate these big numbers mumbo jumbo things too but not enough to argue to get them removed. A bit of an analogy: I laugh when I compare Magic the Gathering to Yu-Gih-Oh...Magic is arguably geared for 15+ (more like 20+) and yet the numbers are single and double digits. Yu-Gih-Oh is easily geared for 8-15 year olds and has four digit numbers. I wouldn't play Yu-Gih-Oh just because I think it's stupid to not only make everything double digit math but then add on two meaningless zeroes onto every number. And this is how I know many of you are seeing Neverwinter...
I love D&D's simplicity. As complex as it is having everything revolve a handful of dice and mental math is perfection...but of course this isn't always ideal for MMO's...and I have no idea why. It would be nice to round off the numbers but *sighs*
That's a fight for a different person
I would like to see the numbers lowered some, but not down to tabletop levels. This is my opinion, if weapons damages are going to be around tabletop level numbers is is extremely difficult to "tweek" damages for balance purposes. If a sword does 1-8 damage it is hard to tweek the damage down by 5% without adding decimal places which doesn't work. If you keep 1-8 and round decimal places off you have made no change really or much more of a change than you might want. I would be happy with just multiplying everything by 10 from basic table top. Now this doesn't just apply to tweaking some item that lets you do +1% damage also has a problem when dealing with very low numbers. The biggest problem is even multiplying everything by 10 won't fix all those problems
Meh. Five percent is five percent, regardless of how high the number goes. The only thing that really changes is perspective.
The thread is not a debate or a discussion on whether or not it is. Any posts of that nature will be deemed Off Topic and removed.
Feel free to say you feel that the improvements aren't good ideas but only if you disagree with them. Arguing the suggestions aren't needed because the game is already D&D will also be labelled as Off Topic.
The1tiggle,
Most of what I suggested has very little to do with seeing past level 30 or not. Sure there are more powers past level 30 but the most important aspect that I presented, IMO, is that players should be able to choose which powers to learn and upgrade every level rather than be on a pre-determined set-up.
Feats and non-combat skills are little to no different from level 1 to level 60. You do get paragon level "feats"" which are likely paragon specific but it's still not *any* D&D Feat System. Open up your fourth edition Player's Handbook and compare the feats in there to a skill tree. A skill tree doesn't do feats any justice, sorry Cryptic.
And skills...skills don't get any better or worse with levels. I don't like pointing out how horrid the system is, truly, but it's just so basic it's as if they only added it simply because it's an "important" part of D&D. Skills got boiled down to opening some random chests in the world...words can't describe how undeveloped the skills system is.
Going past level 30 won't change any suggestion other than adding more powers. Everything else is completely level independent.
Achievement unlocked : EPIC FAIL!
Anyway, this topic looks like a good idea, but what can make us think that any of the solutions proposed here are going to be seriously tested by the devs?
I guess the other option is just to do nothing, make no suggestion and pray to the deity of your choosing to intervene. Maybe they won't listen, maybe they will listen. But if no one makes any suggestions they definately will have nothing to think about listening to.
No it isn't, not if you are rounding decimals as you can't apply 1.7 hitpoints of damage if your hit points that don't allow for decimal places. if you have a weapon that does 1-8 and you up its damage by 5% a roll of 8 becomes 8.4 and that can't be applied if the hitpoints do not have decimals. So it would have to either be dropped to 8 (now +5% is not +5%) or rounded up to 9 which again is not +5%.
I personally know they read these forums but very rarely post. Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they don't read, listen or agree with what's being said.
Nobody knows if they will take this thread and implement changes based on it but the only way to guarantee they won't is to not put the thoughts and opinions out there.
On Damage:
The other option many games try to go is to have hidden numbers beyond the scenes. 1d8's are 100d8's but simply round them off for simplicity. The problem with this is that hidden numbers are often noticed by the subconcious and tends to irritate people.
The human mind is an amazing thing, we probably register more mathmatics on the subconcious level than the subconcious level. There was an experiment which presents a number of blue and yellow dots and asks the subject to state if there are more blue or yellow dots as fast as possible. What they found was that the more people thought about the answer the less likely they were to get it right...the "gut feeling" was often the right answer.
When games run hidden numbers in the background our minds do notice those numbers on a subconcious level. Those good old "flukes" when damage is suddenly much higher or lower than it should be...
Personally I'd like to see them reduce the numbers by a decimal as suggested, the idea of hidden numbers is something I know I in particular catch on to quick and personally get irritated of quickly. Large numbers might improve game accuracy and balancing but it's not something I personally like to see. I'd rather see 100-1,000 damage rather than 1,000-10,000.
Once numbers pass a thousand I personally lose touch with their value.
But again, that relies on the assumption that decimals are rounded. at the end of the day, five percent is still five percent, wether it's 8.4, or 8400. (Though admittedly, this relies on the assumption that enemies' health will scale proportionally to your damage, which is a fair assumption given that this is an MMORPG)
Out of just over a dozen MMOs that I have run numbers on I have only seen one game that doesn't not "adjust" (by rounding or dropping) decimal places . So it is a assumption that NW will as well but supported by my experience. A way would be to look at STO and CO and see if they do being they are all made by the same company and use the same engine, it is more likely that they would handle decimals in the same way. I personally have no idea about them, never really got into them so never done the number crunching on them to see if their math holds up.
Well you can always just hide the decimals, but you run into some of the problems listed above. But I agree that i'd rather the numbers remain smaller. 25006842 damage is just needlessly excessive and over complicates. Usually it is the result of a game sticking around a long time and increasing the level cap. It doesn't often just happen right out of the gate.
Yeah no doubt, after the 2nd expansion in most MMOs numbers have gotten pretty much out of control. They are already out of control in NW
Kinda makes you wonder why they started with higher numbers. It can't be simpler to manage from a design perspective.
LAME....
Doesn't matter whether it is or is not a D&D game, the thread is based off that feedback and as such is suggesting ways to improve the game for those who are not yet won over. If you're already won over, great, but this isn't a debate whether or not it is D&D thread....it's a way to make it more D&D regardless of whether you're won over or not.
Somebody posted, probably on the second page, in response to ryger's post 'would these proposed changes hurt your experience?' and that's the bottom line. I don't care whether you're won over or not, the solutions proposed should win over more and improve the experience for those who are already won over, if the suggestions won't improve your experience then let me know *why* you don't agree with the proposed modifications.
In the end what this comes down to is actually reading before posting
In conclusion consider this my last response to that matter for a long while and get back on topic or else posts will vanish >.<
So far I have few concerns since D&D is the reason why I would be getting into this game. It has very little else to offer than any other MMO game already on market, and they probably already do a lot of things better.
1. Dungeon master client. As far as I know there will be none. You can only do dungeons and whatsoever and let people play them. This is not really D&D. D&D will need a storyteller. Granted it is good that content can be done without DM also (in MMO world)
2. Yes, I know fanbois don't like nwn comparison but nwn1 was successful because of ability to form selective communities with their own enforced rules. That quaranteed there was a roleplaying community who shared similar playstyles and could go on making up their stories together. If you add up MMO style random people in same area result is not really as much D&D as that.
3. Character creation seems horrible. Only MMO trinity characters?? stealth rogue, melee dps/tank, cc and heal. Seriously? Nothing D&D there. I know 4e made D&D a lot more straightforward but there's more space for flexibility than this. Not one character type I typically play in D&D is represented with current race/class choices.
More flexibility to character creation, DM tools, ability to form playgroups with limited or maybe password protected access user-created areas for example. Might just do the trick.
Certainly a nice feature but not a requirement.
2. I agree...but not going to happen at least for the time being. All UGC will be instanced at launch but they do hope to add some persistent support in the future. In any case, nice feature we might have later but not a requirement for the game to be D&D. Hell, half the D&D Games on the market are arguably single player (Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale?)
3. That's Fourth Edition. You call them Trinity but Fourth Edition calls them Leader, Controller, Defender, Striker. Those titles are taken right out of the Player Handbooks. The only thing, beyond the expansion requested on the front page which is different from the PHB is the fact they don't allow free form classes and do limit build choices. That alone isn't a huge issue in my opinion and absolutely not going to be adjusted for launch or any point soon after (first post states this suggestion is barking up the wrong tree).
If you look at the game as if you want it to be NWN3 you will be sorely disappointed. The game has exponential potential but it won't be NWN3. It's going to be an MMO based on Fourth Edition Rules and by the fact that it is an MMO certain things you might be accustomed to in NWN just won't be possible and while NWN was great in so many ways it is also completely unique.
NWN brought interactive D&D experiences to a new level but those features can't be held up as requirements for all D&D Games.
And out of those dozens, which are game culture milestones? :P
Also, one other thing this game is missing are terrain effects, like forests and jungle reducing the effect of ranged attacks and impeding movement.
-a) What benefit would this customization have for the player, and for the players playing against this player? What would be the downfalls of a mage picking up a sword and some sturdier armor? How would you balance that? Unless it was just a total action game and no one cared about "fair" just going around 1-2 shotting everyone in brawls that have no real purpose other than to watch blood spray and all the pretty lights.
-b) Propose you -did- find a way to balance out this expensive equation. What then? What's the purpose of building the character YOUR absolute 100% way? Assume they have everything balanced. What's the point? You'll probably be weaker than another build version of the character you have. And unless one certain build, or tactic, or w/e is just completely broken, eventually people will find out what "works" and what "doesn't work". Optimal solutions. Why do things your way, when eventually everyone else will pass you by? And if the designers want to keep things "Switched up" by that time it'll just be easy to figure out. (Hard-line. If you want THIS kind of customization, just play D&D as it is. The only thing you'll be missing is pretty graphics, and a different combat system).
-c) Finally, aside from appeasing players and letting them have it their way (Burger King), what will this do for the game itself? Chances are, to account for all these variables and to keep players who built their character their way becoming unfeasible to play in certain content, players will cry foul. To prevent this, the game will undoubtedly be dumbed down to the most simple system. With little depth, or complexity. You will end up sacrificing your idea of variety, for an illusion of variety. Things will be either extremely simple, or so complex that the burden of knowledge placed upon the player will diminish fun factor. You'll be spending so much time learning the game, you'll barely have anytime to actually play the **** thing.
-a) I will assume that you were talking about all the abilities in the game. At-Will "powers" and abilities, and your Dailies. While, I agree that there should be more, I do understand that limited in certain aspects is acceptable. What's more important, ability bloat, or ability meaning. It's walking a very thin line. Will abilities become outdated at later levels? How many should we have? What makes them different? Are these differences aesthetic (animations), or is there more? Can these abilities be abused? It's a lot to think about. I haven't been able to get into Beta, but it's some brain food. You guys will be able to do more for it than I will.
-b) Something I do -not- agree with, is letting players decide what powers they want. At least to a point, as always. Not having to go up a "tree" to get to something that I want would be fulfilling, absolutely. But working towards what you want is part of the fun. Secondly, I like to assume the designers are fairly intelligent. They probably want us to experience all of the abilities at sometime. This is a smart decision. It keeps your brain working. Having experienced all of these abilities at some point, near the end-game you're finally going to be given the decision as to how you want your character to finally "Be" what you want it to be. Another important part of the progression of your character in an MMO. Starting out with total freedom sounds like a sweet bite of candy. But how soon until it rots? That's a serious balancing act.
-c) Completely agree on how abilities and powers should "feel" more powerful as you level them up. Something as simple as increasing the size, and AoE of a fireball would go a long way to "feeling" like you're getting somewhere. Besides numbers. Game feel is very important. So bravo on that.
Aside from what I've wrote, I've pretty much spilled my brain matter onto the keyboard and am running on empty. So, hopefully maybe I've added to the discussion and given something for you fellow players to mull over.
Arrows and Blades do not have names on them.
They are addressed, "To whom it may concern.."
Yeah, I disagree there. No internet game can beat the imagination.
Exactly. Hell the entire horror genre in all of it's forms relies upon this simple truth.
The things we can imagine will always be more horrifying than any movie, game or graphic novel can ever show us. PnP DnD? Same concept.
All I want in a D&D game its a option to choice my skills and feats in a D&D way, build my char in a way that I feel more fun.
Playing this weekend I felt like playing more a WOW system, I cannot choose my feats and skills when Im leveling.
Ok its like all actual MMOs, but I am completely disappointed with the way they are implemented.
Tottaly agree with ambisinisterr .
I think there’s one more factor. Let’s say my character is simply tough as nails. I’m a Dwarf hero, carved out of granite. My skin is thick as leather, my bones hard as steel. I was raised in the roughest conditions knows to mankind. I trained in the most vigorous environment.
Consequently…
I’m really hard to stun. You can sneak up on me. You can get the jump on me. You can whack me on the head. You better be careful, though, because you might just tick me off.
You better hit really, really hard. My sissy little elf buddy on the other hand, not so much.
Thus, the saving throw. Mine is high. If you want to stun me, you have to beat it.
Here’s another example of how a saving throw might work.
There’s a vampire on the loose. He has the power to dominate people, make them do his bidding. He has been charming people and forcing them kill others for his food/pleasure. He keeps his hands clean and never kills people himself. He thinks this will keep us off his track. He’s wrong. I’m on to him.
I’m a High Priest of Torm. I’m hunting this vampire. I’m walking around a village in the middle of the night, my identity a secret. I’m not dressed as a priest. I’m dressed as a lowly peasant, baiting the vampire. I know he’s in this town; it’s just a matter of finding him. Unbeknownst to me, he’s lurking in an alley just meters away. He uses his mind controlling power to dominate me. The battle begins.
Can he automatically dominate me just because that’s his power? Heck no. I am wise and powerful. My devotion to my god is absolute, my mind pure and without sin. I wear protective talismans, imbued with the power of Torm himself. I will fight his domination with all my might. My righteousness and training won’t allow me to succumb to evil so easily. It’s a battle of wills and mine is nothing to scoff at.
My little Dwarf buddy, he’s a weak minded fool, dominated pretty easy. He’s good to have around though, because he’s tough as nails.
I have trouble calling this an "MMO". Its too arcadish. I had to use 45 healing pots in a boss fight today... on a failed attempt. Then then remaining 55 or so on the second sucessful atempt. healer wasnt healing. tank wasnt tanking. Just about every group I've been in has been like this.
Also its too cumbersome to interact with other players, like targetting them and doing a /salute and things of that nature. Just kinda arcadish feeling.
This game won't be my main "daily" mmo but will be a nice distraction from time to time. I don't see guilding up and doing the daily/social guild type stuff like traditional MMO's.. Also the hostility in this game already is throwing a huge red flag. its obvious there are a lot of warcraft transplants. Right now playing GW2 and a little LOTRO and both those games aren't plagued by these hostilities. (although I'm a lowbie in GW2, that stuff may exist at higher levels)
Also the nickel and diming is really turning me off. As long as I can maintain AD to keep scrolls/potions and adventuring necessities I'll stick around but the minute I have to spend real world money to buy necessities to adventure will be the end for me. I can see charging for cosmetic stuff, mounts, companions, buffs/boosts etc... but if spending money to run dungeons becomes a necessity, adios.
This is why I was so worried when I learned this game wouldn't be a subscription model.
I agree the game could see some improvements and I think with this sort of discussion, the game will become more polished in the near future.
For any Cryptic devs listening, of Ambi's ideas, I'm personally most interested in seeing some non-combat content/skills. Puzzles, disarming more common and more lethal traps, finding secret doors, picking locked doors and chests, bending bars as a feat of strength, etc.