Get ready for 119 + builds based on classes i say going on the 4thEd train, the current cleric i feel wont get a mace ect, you will have the choice of a battle cleric to wield that mace, pally's will have the avenger and protector, ranger two weapon, and archer, brawny rogue, warlock deceptive and scourge, warlord inspiring and tactical and war wizard just to name a few.
Cookie cutter yes possibly, but wow a variety of options nonetheless, well thats my prediction in some format or another, the potential is nearly endless.
There's a lot of unapologetic flip-flopping going around. If there was anything constructive coming out of it, no problem, but it's mostly taking the opposing side of a valid argument just for argument's sake. Let's try to provide feedback that moves the conversation forward...
...oh, and there is no "can't" in programming. There are "I can't be bothered"s. Too many.
Example: DICE, developer of the acclaimed Battlefield series, didn't create destructible objects with its Refractor 2 engine in Battlefield 1942. In comes Trauma Studios (Desert Combat Mod), a group of NYC buddies that created their own game company and does what the developer didn't create, not because DICE didn't have the skill, but because they didn't have the inclination to try, totally re-vamping a game, and landing themselves spots in the development of Battlefield 2.
Lesson for the devs (and nay-sayers): With motivation, and determination, you can give us our cake, and have yours too.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
There's a lot of unapologetic flip-flopping going around. If there was anything constructive coming out of it, no problem, but it's mostly taking the opposing side of a valid argument just for argument's sake. Let's try to provide feedback that moves the conversation forward...
...oh, and there is no "can't" in programming. There are "I can't be bothered"s. Too many.
Example: DICE, developer of the acclaimed Battlefield series, didn't create destructible objects with its Refractor 2 engine in Battlefield 1942. In comes Trauma Studios (Desert Combat Mod), a group of NYC buddies that created their own game company and does what the developer didn't create, not because DICE didn't have the skill, but because they didn't have the inclination to try, totally re-vamping a game, and landing themselves spots in the development of Battlefield 2.
Lesson for the devs (and nay-sayers): With motivation, and determination, you can give us our cake, and have yours too.
You can theoretically create everything in a video game but you are not taking into consideration how much time and money it will cost to do so.
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horusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 22Arc User
edited February 2013
Whether you have 2 or 200 choices all min maxers always stick to the single best build.
GUNBAD is a casual guild for RPG geeks. We have been around for over a decade and we'd like you to join us.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
This may not be D&D, but if you compare it to almost any MMO on the market ... the average is at least 3 'talent trees' and potential hybridization. Very common for PWI games that I have played even.... choosing your class should not be the last choice you get on how your game play ends up.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
The talent trees are more GW2'ish then anything else you would see on the market. The game already forces you to choose a pregenerated build so the choice is between a 1% to 5% in an ability increase here or the other tree allows you to have that same % in health return instead of damage and thats about it right now.
In fact if we were to compare this game with GW2 in terms of talents GW2 would have around 4 more trees then NW.
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lordryexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited February 2013
Just want to throw this in..if this was really suppose to be a CORE of Neverwinter then I have a feeling that the Feats and which Stats were maxed will have a strong impact for further customization later on..
IF they release second classes.
Remember all those previous expansions of NVW and its similar genres? There were always new classes added but requires specific Feats and Stats to have access to. That will also be the perfect time for Perfect World to sell reset scrolls if you have used up your "free" first one lol.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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gatorflashMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited February 2013
its actually 14 copper Anyway as far as character progression, here is my 2 cents worth. I think that what everyone is upset about here is the fact that there arent more choices to customize your character in the beginning. The guardian fighter only has 3 trees where you put your feat points. If I go strictly defense on my feat tree, there is really nothing distinguishing my fighter from any other fighter that chooses that tree. The D&D game is completely different. In 4th edition, while most fighters will have pretty much the same powers, its most likely that no two fighters will be the same when it comes down to feat choices, stats, and in some cases gear.
So, ladies (hopefully ^^) and gentlemen, surprise.
We've actually come to some conclusions in this thread! That's so rare on MMO forums, I can't believe what I just wrote . A sign of hope, brings tears to my eyes and whatnot.
Now let's get myself some Doom commentary...
Of course that's my personal opinion, but here it is: We just need more powers to choose from. And more weapons.
Some people say it would be just an illusion of choice, because balance requires leveling it all up to... level of your character.
And the latter is true! Plus, just like in real world - whether you get cut by an axe or thrusted with a sword, it's just customization, the effect is similar . You'll probably die.
But still, elven noble wielding rapier is a different person than a dwarf with a wooden club. They should feel different. Bah, they even smell different.
And there's very simple solution! It's just based on creativity of the devs, or rather using what's already there in D&D pen & paper. In Cryptic's own, creative way.
First Example (come on and invent more, people)
Situation: Control Wizard, on first level, uses "Magic Missile" spell at will. Problem: Lack of variety, everyone will use it. Everyone will feel "gray". Everyone on the planet, we're doomed. Solution: Add "Burning Hands" spell! It deals similar damage, but mechanic, feel and animations are totally different. Additionally, fire isn't blue. You can't reach far, but you get a chance to ignite foes and deal some little damage over time, lets say, for 5s since your last attack. Some monsters in Area of Effect will get ignited, some not (% chance). Very fun gameplay, useful spell, and magic missile is still better if you want to keep distance BUT... you'll have to run away from mobs that get closer . We can call that chicken style wizard.
Yes, I've made the text funny, but isn't that the customization we're after?
We don't need to sacrifice options in tree skills. That's our deck of powers. In D&D 2e, or in classic cRPG Baldur's Gate, wizard had _plenty_ of spells to choose from. Cleric too. And you could memorize only a few, like here in Neverwinter you can use only a few from your skillbar. That's perfect, you still can run away and change your set to ready yourself for a different monster or to differentiate from another wizard which jointed your party.
Now, expand this variety on other classes, make it very D&Dish and voila, we're there.
How to make alternative skills? Devs must make sure they look different, feel different and ARE different from those that exist. Even adding one more from time to time would make a BIG difference. Even if those powers deal same damage or blast radius, we'll be happy. We don't need min-maxing, we need variety & customization of character personalities integrated into the game. No mere skins, we need a real feel of being "one of a kind" adventurer.
A Drizzt? Elminster? Nah, I wanna be Sarrivin. Let me do that.
Creator of rising, Polish Neverwinter Portal: www.neverwinter.com.pl
My Polish D&D Online Portal: www.ddopl.com Style: Roleplayer, Explorer, Monster Killer.
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Situation: Control Wizard, on first level, uses "Magic Missile" spell at will. Problem: Lack of variety, everyone will use it. Everyone will feel "gray". Everyone on the planet, we're doomed. Solution: Add "Burning Hands" spell! It deals similar damage, but mechanic, feel and animations are totally different. Additionally, fire isn't blue. You can't reach far, but you get a chance to ignite foes and deal some little damage over time, lets say, for 5s since your last attack. Some monsters in Area of Effect will get ignited, some not (% chance). Very fun gameplay, useful spell, and magic missile is still better if you want to keep distance BUT... you'll have to run away from mobs that get closer . We can call that chicken style wizard.
After coming off of Champions Online, Im a bit surprised they didnt do this. CO has nothing but reskinned moves that roughly do the same thing. Its still fun though, since it gives you the feeling of being different & having choice. I think the problem is in trying to be so close to the core book & what-not.
However, regarding the above example... its gonna be for the War Mage. I think alot of the customization goes into another base archytype-build for each class...
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
After coming off of Champions Online, Im a bit surprised they didnt do this. CO has nothing but reskinned moves that roughly do the same thing. Its still fun though, since it gives you the feeling of being different & having choice. I think the problem is in trying to be so close to the core book & what-not.
However, regarding the above example... its gonna be for the War Mage. I think alot of the customization goes into another base archytype-build for each class...
I think they are trying to do actual choices that will affect your gameplay this time around instead of reskining the same skill 200 times.
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rohk007Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
There dose seem to be enough choice I think to constitute calling any thing a "build"
we get to choose some feet points. And from what I could tell it did not matter were I put these. it really did not affect anything for me in a meaning full way.
Dose any one else agree that the character progression really doe not exist?
We saw the first CB weekend....they are listening to feedback, I would not worry about it. They will tweak this to what we want but it wont be perfect at launch.
Of the MMOs you listed, I know of one. I am going to assume the other 3 had a short shelf life. Unfortunately for your point, shelf life does matter, because it directly reflects that giving people unlimited customization or "build" options does not make for a healthy game. Regardless of how many build paths there may be, there is going to be 1 that is the best for a certain situation and if you want to excel at this game you are going to go that build. The same goes for Tabletops, and especially DDO. Hell, look at Guild Wars. That is an absolute PERFECT example of how you can give players 300 abilities, but only 10 of those are even worthwhile in the end for what you want to do. Show me a Guild Wars player that actively used every single ability they learned to maximize their DPS, TPS, or HPS and I will gladly concede.
To anyone else who is saying that Cryptic has the "potential" to give us all these choices you seem to think we should have--they really don't. The game is already crowded with abilities as it is since we only have access to 2 At-Wills, 3 Encounters, and 2 Dailies. It would just be Guild Wars all over again since we would just choose the ones that maximize DPS/TPS/HPS or survivability and the other powers would just be a money loss for Cryptic.
I would rather have 10 balanced, working, and perfect abilities than have 100 unbalanced, untested, thrown-together abilities just for the sake of having more "choice".
Edit: To anyone who is saying "the feats didn't make a big impact on my character":
WE ARE LEVEL THIRTY. Look at level 30 in any other game where the max level is 60 or higher. You do so little damage and healing compared to when you will be max level that the % based increases most feats are OF COURSE going to be little. Feats aren't meant to make an impact immediately, but rather for when you reach the maximum potential of your character.
I'm sorry, I stopped reading through this post after this comment. The amount of stupid I just read almost made me want to kill myself..
Either you never played Guild Wars and just heard about it from other sources, or you seem to be forgetting that you CAN'T use 100 skills..or even 15 skills at the same time.. Sure, there WERE cookie cutter builds, but no one person ever used a build meant for Running while PvP'ing, or grinding, or dungeons, etc.
If you had any common sense outside of, 'this person said something I didn't read right. I MUST RAGE!!! I MUST SMASH!!!' I'm sure you'd realize 90% of these people don't WANT three-HAMSTER-hundred skills to use at one time. They, and myself, want customization based upon what THEY feel is fun. If someone doesn't like the way it plays, even if it's a cookie-cutter build, they won't use it.
If you want to go back to 'well even if you can only use 10 of the 100, there's still a large number of skills unused because it's not viable.' I don't give a rat's hind quarters if something is viable or not. If it sounds like fun, I'm going to try it. I remember trying countless builds on Guild Wars, always trying to find something that was even more fun than the last build. If you're not like that, then you should probably shut the hell up and stop blatantly claiming your opinion as end-all fact. I have fun theory crafting and trying random 'non viable' builds. There's 0 way to shift a meta in any game without trying new things.
I doubt that there will ever be a system as complex as Guild Wars' system ever again. In the end, it's not just YOUR character that you get to handcraft by picking your skills from among hundreds, you also get to trick your heroes skills out to make a synergistic team.
The skill system was half the game for me. I loved hunting skills for my team. This game is not that sort of thing. I personally do not mind if there are limited choices in how to build a character. The game itself plays fast and furious and the skill is mostly in HOW you play not in the strategy of how you set up your team.
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nordicspecialMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Glad its not "huge amount of choice" makes it somewhat able to be balance and skill based instead of Zomg you have to make this buidl until its nerfed.
We should be fair to the developers of MMOs. It is possible to create a game with many build choices for the players. But the more the choices people have, the more imbalanced these builds will be. And you can never find the balance between those classes/builds.
And you know what? If for example the Guardian Fighter had 10-15 possible builds I believe that the 95% of the population would use the optimum build. Because there would be an optimum build and you can't avoid that.
I don't think the issue of "choices" even exist. As we have seen in many games people find the best build or if they can't they just google it and play with it. So why should I ask the devs to waste time and money on this? It's a lost cause, you just have to admit it.
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seraphynx1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
We should be fair to the developers of MMOs. It is possible to create a game with many build choices for the players. But the more the choices people have, the more imbalanced these builds will be. And you can never find the balance between those classes/builds.
And you know what? If for example the Guardian Fighter had 10-15 possible builds I believe that the 95% of the population would use the optimum build. Because there would be an optimum build and you can't avoid that.
I don't think the issue of "choices" even exist. As we have seen in many games people find the best build or if they can't they just google it and play with it. So why should I ask the devs to waste time and money on this? It's a lost cause, you just have to admit it.
plenty of games offer tons of choices and while yes its harder to balance ill take a game not quite balanced with tons of choices over a completely balanced game with almost no choices.. Rift is a decent example you have tons of options in builds between the soul combinations.. and yes there are cookie cutter builds but i built tons of very viable combinations that did well in both pve and pvp that were not cookie cutter at all and i loved that.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
plenty of games offer tons of choices and while yes its harder to balance ill take a game not quite balanced with tons of choices over a completely balanced game with almost no choices.. Rift is a decent example you have tons of options in builds between the soul combinations.. and yes there are cookie cutter builds but i built tons of very viable combinations that did well in both pve and pvp that were not cookie cutter at all and i loved that.
In RIFT you do not have as much options as it seems you have tbh. You have a lot of souls per class but the souls that actually work together well(or at all) are pretty much limited so you have pretty much 8 builds per class with slight variations and in some exceptional cases you can come up with some very weird very specific build.
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seraphynx1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
In RIFT you do not have as much options as it seems you have tbh. You have a lot of souls per class but the souls that actually work together well(or at all) are pretty much limited so you have pretty much 8 builds per class with slight variations and in some exceptional cases you can come up with some very weird very specific build.
i played Rift for almost a year I spent a majority of that year making up soul builds you really do have a lot of viable options if you have patience to try them..compared to a game like TERA where you have almost no options at all.. in the end though for me more options the better.. I really hate when every single warrior standing next to me is pretty much a carbon copy of myself with no variety.. in Rift i never had that issue..
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
i played Rift for almost a year I spent a majority of that year making up soul builds you really do have a lot of viable options if you have patience to try them..compared to a game like TERA where you have almost no options at all.. in the end though for me more options the better.. I really hate when every single warrior standing next to me is pretty much a carbon copy of myself with no variety.. in Rift i never had that issue..
You would think that but then you run a dungeon with 5 clerics and it just so happens that the five of you have almost the exact same 5 builds and all of you came up with them on your own and the magic ends. As I said - there are plenty variations on the same build but the actual number of builds is limited.
Still we are going way too off-topic on this one. I have no intention of discussing RIFT builds here although it is a great game in many aspects
Back to the topic. Here you have the opposite thing that you have in most MMORPGs - when you look at the skills there do not seem to be all that many but if you go into it you can come it with builds that have significant gameplay style differences where in other games you have many different options for developing your hero but overall the character plays pretty much the same way no matter what you do with it and sometimes even different classes play the same way.
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warzeriorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
i played Rift for almost a year I spent a majority of that year making up soul builds you really do have a lot of viable options if you have patience to try them..compared to a game like TERA where you have almost no options at all.. in the end though for me more options the better.. I really hate when every single warrior standing next to me is pretty much a carbon copy of myself with no variety.. in Rift i never had that issue..
See Above...
I didn't meet too many other Mages using too many vastly different builds (Healer, DPS, or "Buffer") and even one was deemed "PvP" only. The only thing I saw really was, I may have been one of the few who really liked to DPS as an Elementalist main.
They can however in the future give the illusion of choices such as make Magic Missle, Fire Hands, etc like another said do the exact same thing mechanically but different graphics. Or later add in the Paragon allowing a wizard to use a sword. I'm sure they probably have a timetable set for release though as well.
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daviaugusto1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I agree with Elve, people are not getting how options works in this game. Basically you character will have the same skills availables to him as will any character of the same classe, however you only choose to equip some of those skills.
The option is not really what you choose to have available to you, but how to uso what you have available. I played many MMOs and I found that classes had 2-3 different build, but those builds played completely similar ,(EDIT: not a build to another but a build to it self). Same rotation of skills, on Neverwinter I played the Cleric until level 18 and could play him very differently, with more AoE Damage Spells, direct healing spells or indirect healing spells. I never played any MMO where a level 18 character had that amount of really interesting and viable ways of playing.
Another thing is the option you make when creating a character, even though you dont have three builds of warrior/fighter you have two kinds of fighters. Does it really matter if you choose how you will play with you fighter from level one or level 10 or level 30?
Of course, with only 5 classes there are not lots of options, but we know they are making more classes, the devs have said it is really important to them to throw a few more asap. When you look trully into a design perpective of the game play, I believe you will see that this game has as many, if not more, option than any other MMO (but DDO, but DDO is so complex that you have to study what to do or you simply take a path). Certainly it will never have as many option as any game really similar to D&D like Baldurs Gate, NWN, etc.
I agree with Elve, people are not getting how options works in this game. Basically you character will have the same skills availables to him as will any character of the same classe, however you only choose to equip some of those skills.
The option is not really what you choose to have available to you, but how to uso what you have available. I played many MMOs and I found that classes had 2-3 different build, but those builds played completely similar ,(EDIT: not a build to another but a build to it self). Same rotation of skills, on Neverwinter I played the Cleric until level 18 and could play him very differently, with more AoE Damage Spells, direct healing spells or indirect healing spells. I never played any MMO where a level 18 character had that amount of really interesting and viable ways of playing.
Another thing is the option you make when creating a character, even though you dont have three builds of warrior/fighter you have two kinds of fighters. Does it really matter if you choose how you will play with you fighter from level one or level 10 or level 30?
Of course, with only 5 classes there are not lots of options, but we know they are making more classes, the devs have said it is really important to them to throw a few more asap. When you look trully into a design perpective of the game play, I believe you will see that this game has as many, if not more, option than any other MMO (but DDO, but DDO is so complex that you have to study what to do or you simply take a path). Certainly it will never have as many option as any game really similar to D&D like Baldurs Gate, NWN, etc.
Agree - great post! There's a difference between flavour and diversity in a gameplay sense. I'm all for being able to add personal touches, but gameplay has to come first (because not everyone will care about immersion etc but everyone is playing the game!:p) It's more important to have access to genuinely different playstyles than to have lots of spells with visual/small differences that all essentially have the same function.
My experience with the cleric was the same - even at relatively low level you could see the beginnings of very different gameplay styles. Every ability was different - there is one ranged basic attack, not 5 different spells that are slightly different but all fill the same role. This means the restriction to 7 abilities actually matters and creates build diversity. IMO;)
Edit: Decided to add some links I also posted in the Rogue section. If you haven't had the chance to play so far, these clips may give you an idea what people are talking about (bear in mind this is all lvl 1-30 only)
You get at least (by level 30) 6 encounter powers, 5 at will powers and 3 Daily powers.
You get to pick feats and pick your base ability scores and then you get to pick your paragon path and the details of that.
There's not as much choice as in DDO, but there seems to be more choice than most MMOs. The level of choice in DDO effectively worsens the game somtimes as it becomes impossible to balance the content when one guy has built an ideal for reeal D&D character who sucks and another guy has built an acid savant sorcerer and can solo the hardest stuff. I'm kind of OK with them simplifying the game a bit to serve the purpose of the game not being a goddamn mess.
Everyone would just build the "best" build possible anyway, which is what people do in MMOs (I tried to defy this for many years myself and MMOs just aren't fun if you're the HAMSTER player in the party).
I agree, there is no real choice in this game. All characters are prefabricated. There is just the illusion of a choice which really isn't a choice at all. By lvl 50 every class will be exactly the same with the same feats and attacks and armor and weapons. boring.
This is because Cryptic is not giving us classes but prefab versions of a class. Or what most of us call a "spec" the two fighter classes are not classes at all bust just different "specs" of the same base class. I don't know how cryptic missed this so badly.... It's disgusting. We have no classes we have prefab specs and that is all. in SWTOR we had 4 classes with 3 specs each, some were not that different so we could say SWTOR released with 4x2.5 = 10. and with GW2 we have weapon specs within each class making for greatly varried playstyles. They have 8 classes with about 3.5 ways to play each one give or take. So that is 8x3.5 = 28. in Neverwinter we have 5 classes "I've been hearing this might actually be dropped down to 4... but I'll give them the benifit of the doubt. But since there is no way to actually change the playstyle this makes neverwinter have 5x1 = 5........ So.... Biiiiigggggg Problem here. Esspecially when the basic form of D&D has always been cross classing and mixing paths that equal in thousands apon thousands of ways to play..... and the best we get is 5?..... 5????? FIVE!!! thats it?!?!
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ocrambosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Playstyles will be the other classes, which I expect will be purchaseable in the store, to generate their revenue.
i played Rift for almost a year I spent a majority of that year making up soul builds you really do have a lot of viable options if you have patience to try them..compared to a game like TERA where you have almost no options at all.. in the end though for me more options the better.. I really hate when every single warrior standing next to me is pretty much a carbon copy of myself with no variety.. in Rift i never had that issue..
Yeah. This is the design D&D has the abillity to mirror. But instead we are getting tera style carbon copys of each class. That is terrible for a D&D game. Esspecially a game that is "Suppose" to be following in the foot steps of NWN1+2 where there were hundreds of builds.... Technology is suppose to give us more... not back step us to less. I get more frustrated each day.
Comments
This may change with further betas, but the paragon paths need to offer more diversity with the class.
It will be quite a change from DDO, where there are choices upon choices upon choices. Multi-classing etc
Cookie cutter yes possibly, but wow a variety of options nonetheless, well thats my prediction in some format or another, the potential is nearly endless.
...oh, and there is no "can't" in programming. There are "I can't be bothered"s. Too many.
Example: DICE, developer of the acclaimed Battlefield series, didn't create destructible objects with its Refractor 2 engine in Battlefield 1942. In comes Trauma Studios (Desert Combat Mod), a group of NYC buddies that created their own game company and does what the developer didn't create, not because DICE didn't have the skill, but because they didn't have the inclination to try, totally re-vamping a game, and landing themselves spots in the development of Battlefield 2.
Lesson for the devs (and nay-sayers): With motivation, and determination, you can give us our cake, and have yours too.
You can theoretically create everything in a video game but you are not taking into consideration how much time and money it will cost to do so.
In fact if we were to compare this game with GW2 in terms of talents GW2 would have around 4 more trees then NW.
IF they release second classes.
Remember all those previous expansions of NVW and its similar genres? There were always new classes added but requires specific Feats and Stats to have access to. That will also be the perfect time for Perfect World to sell reset scrolls if you have used up your "free" first one lol.
We've actually come to some conclusions in this thread! That's so rare on MMO forums, I can't believe what I just wrote
Now let's get myself some Doom commentary...
Of course that's my personal opinion, but here it is:
We just need more powers to choose from. And more weapons.
Some people say it would be just an illusion of choice, because balance requires leveling it all up to... level of your character.
And the latter is true! Plus, just like in real world - whether you get cut by an axe or thrusted with a sword, it's just customization, the effect is similar
But still, elven noble wielding rapier is a different person than a dwarf with a wooden club. They should feel different. Bah, they even smell different.
And there's very simple solution! It's just based on creativity of the devs, or rather using what's already there in D&D pen & paper. In Cryptic's own, creative way.
First Example (come on and invent more, people)
Situation: Control Wizard, on first level, uses "Magic Missile" spell at will.
Problem: Lack of variety, everyone will use it. Everyone will feel "gray". Everyone on the planet, we're doomed.
Solution: Add "Burning Hands" spell! It deals similar damage, but mechanic, feel and animations are totally different. Additionally, fire isn't blue. You can't reach far, but you get a chance to ignite foes and deal some little damage over time, lets say, for 5s since your last attack. Some monsters in Area of Effect will get ignited, some not (% chance). Very fun gameplay, useful spell, and magic missile is still better if you want to keep distance BUT... you'll have to run away from mobs that get closer
Yes, I've made the text funny, but isn't that the customization we're after?
We don't need to sacrifice options in tree skills. That's our deck of powers. In D&D 2e, or in classic cRPG Baldur's Gate, wizard had _plenty_ of spells to choose from. Cleric too. And you could memorize only a few, like here in Neverwinter you can use only a few from your skillbar. That's perfect, you still can run away and change your set to ready yourself for a different monster or to differentiate from another wizard which jointed your party.
Now, expand this variety on other classes, make it very D&Dish and voila, we're there.
How to make alternative skills? Devs must make sure they look different, feel different and ARE different from those that exist. Even adding one more from time to time would make a BIG difference. Even if those powers deal same damage or blast radius, we'll be happy. We don't need min-maxing, we need variety & customization of character personalities integrated into the game. No mere skins, we need a real feel of being "one of a kind" adventurer.
A Drizzt? Elminster? Nah, I wanna be Sarrivin. Let me do that.
My Polish D&D Online Portal: www.ddopl.com Style: Roleplayer, Explorer, Monster Killer.
Young Musician, Admin, RPG/MMO fan and story writer, Freelancer.
After coming off of Champions Online, Im a bit surprised they didnt do this. CO has nothing but reskinned moves that roughly do the same thing. Its still fun though, since it gives you the feeling of being different & having choice. I think the problem is in trying to be so close to the core book & what-not.
However, regarding the above example... its gonna be for the War Mage. I think alot of the customization goes into another base archytype-build for each class...
We saw the first CB weekend....they are listening to feedback, I would not worry about it. They will tweak this to what we want but it wont be perfect at launch.
I'm sorry, I stopped reading through this post after this comment. The amount of stupid I just read almost made me want to kill myself..
Either you never played Guild Wars and just heard about it from other sources, or you seem to be forgetting that you CAN'T use 100 skills..or even 15 skills at the same time.. Sure, there WERE cookie cutter builds, but no one person ever used a build meant for Running while PvP'ing, or grinding, or dungeons, etc.
If you had any common sense outside of, 'this person said something I didn't read right. I MUST RAGE!!! I MUST SMASH!!!' I'm sure you'd realize 90% of these people don't WANT three-HAMSTER-hundred skills to use at one time. They, and myself, want customization based upon what THEY feel is fun. If someone doesn't like the way it plays, even if it's a cookie-cutter build, they won't use it.
If you want to go back to 'well even if you can only use 10 of the 100, there's still a large number of skills unused because it's not viable.' I don't give a rat's hind quarters if something is viable or not. If it sounds like fun, I'm going to try it. I remember trying countless builds on Guild Wars, always trying to find something that was even more fun than the last build. If you're not like that, then you should probably shut the hell up and stop blatantly claiming your opinion as end-all fact. I have fun theory crafting and trying random 'non viable' builds. There's 0 way to shift a meta in any game without trying new things.
The skill system was half the game for me. I loved hunting skills for my team. This game is not that sort of thing. I personally do not mind if there are limited choices in how to build a character. The game itself plays fast and furious and the skill is mostly in HOW you play not in the strategy of how you set up your team.
And you know what? If for example the Guardian Fighter had 10-15 possible builds I believe that the 95% of the population would use the optimum build. Because there would be an optimum build and you can't avoid that.
I don't think the issue of "choices" even exist. As we have seen in many games people find the best build or if they can't they just google it and play with it. So why should I ask the devs to waste time and money on this? It's a lost cause, you just have to admit it.
plenty of games offer tons of choices and while yes its harder to balance ill take a game not quite balanced with tons of choices over a completely balanced game with almost no choices.. Rift is a decent example you have tons of options in builds between the soul combinations.. and yes there are cookie cutter builds but i built tons of very viable combinations that did well in both pve and pvp that were not cookie cutter at all and i loved that.
In RIFT you do not have as much options as it seems you have tbh. You have a lot of souls per class but the souls that actually work together well(or at all) are pretty much limited so you have pretty much 8 builds per class with slight variations and in some exceptional cases you can come up with some very weird very specific build.
i played Rift for almost a year I spent a majority of that year making up soul builds you really do have a lot of viable options if you have patience to try them..compared to a game like TERA where you have almost no options at all.. in the end though for me more options the better.. I really hate when every single warrior standing next to me is pretty much a carbon copy of myself with no variety.. in Rift i never had that issue..
You would think that but then you run a dungeon with 5 clerics and it just so happens that the five of you have almost the exact same 5 builds and all of you came up with them on your own and the magic ends. As I said - there are plenty variations on the same build but the actual number of builds is limited.
Still we are going way too off-topic on this one. I have no intention of discussing RIFT builds here although it is a great game in many aspects
Back to the topic. Here you have the opposite thing that you have in most MMORPGs - when you look at the skills there do not seem to be all that many but if you go into it you can come it with builds that have significant gameplay style differences where in other games you have many different options for developing your hero but overall the character plays pretty much the same way no matter what you do with it and sometimes even different classes play the same way.
See Above...
I didn't meet too many other Mages using too many vastly different builds (Healer, DPS, or "Buffer") and even one was deemed "PvP" only. The only thing I saw really was, I may have been one of the few who really liked to DPS as an Elementalist main.
They can however in the future give the illusion of choices such as make Magic Missle, Fire Hands, etc like another said do the exact same thing mechanically but different graphics. Or later add in the Paragon allowing a wizard to use a sword. I'm sure they probably have a timetable set for release though as well.
The option is not really what you choose to have available to you, but how to uso what you have available. I played many MMOs and I found that classes had 2-3 different build, but those builds played completely similar ,(EDIT: not a build to another but a build to it self). Same rotation of skills, on Neverwinter I played the Cleric until level 18 and could play him very differently, with more AoE Damage Spells, direct healing spells or indirect healing spells. I never played any MMO where a level 18 character had that amount of really interesting and viable ways of playing.
Another thing is the option you make when creating a character, even though you dont have three builds of warrior/fighter you have two kinds of fighters. Does it really matter if you choose how you will play with you fighter from level one or level 10 or level 30?
Of course, with only 5 classes there are not lots of options, but we know they are making more classes, the devs have said it is really important to them to throw a few more asap. When you look trully into a design perpective of the game play, I believe you will see that this game has as many, if not more, option than any other MMO (but DDO, but DDO is so complex that you have to study what to do or you simply take a path). Certainly it will never have as many option as any game really similar to D&D like Baldurs Gate, NWN, etc.
Agree - great post! There's a difference between flavour and diversity in a gameplay sense. I'm all for being able to add personal touches, but gameplay has to come first (because not everyone will care about immersion etc but everyone is playing the game!:p) It's more important to have access to genuinely different playstyles than to have lots of spells with visual/small differences that all essentially have the same function.
My experience with the cleric was the same - even at relatively low level you could see the beginnings of very different gameplay styles. Every ability was different - there is one ranged basic attack, not 5 different spells that are slightly different but all fill the same role. This means the restriction to 7 abilities actually matters and creates build diversity. IMO;)
Edit: Decided to add some links I also posted in the Rogue section. If you haven't had the chance to play so far, these clips may give you an idea what people are talking about (bear in mind this is all lvl 1-30 only)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSx1gSFdec0 - takes a look at all the classes. worth a watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh-lh-E7emA - jump to about 5mins in for all Trickster Rogue abilities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK7oF0Xoqx4 - some commentary on builds and how they might work.
You get at least (by level 30) 6 encounter powers, 5 at will powers and 3 Daily powers.
You get to pick feats and pick your base ability scores and then you get to pick your paragon path and the details of that.
There's not as much choice as in DDO, but there seems to be more choice than most MMOs. The level of choice in DDO effectively worsens the game somtimes as it becomes impossible to balance the content when one guy has built an ideal for reeal D&D character who sucks and another guy has built an acid savant sorcerer and can solo the hardest stuff. I'm kind of OK with them simplifying the game a bit to serve the purpose of the game not being a goddamn mess.
Everyone would just build the "best" build possible anyway, which is what people do in MMOs (I tried to defy this for many years myself and MMOs just aren't fun if you're the HAMSTER player in the party).
This is because Cryptic is not giving us classes but prefab versions of a class. Or what most of us call a "spec" the two fighter classes are not classes at all bust just different "specs" of the same base class. I don't know how cryptic missed this so badly.... It's disgusting. We have no classes we have prefab specs and that is all. in SWTOR we had 4 classes with 3 specs each, some were not that different so we could say SWTOR released with 4x2.5 = 10. and with GW2 we have weapon specs within each class making for greatly varried playstyles. They have 8 classes with about 3.5 ways to play each one give or take. So that is 8x3.5 = 28. in Neverwinter we have 5 classes "I've been hearing this might actually be dropped down to 4... but I'll give them the benifit of the doubt. But since there is no way to actually change the playstyle this makes neverwinter have 5x1 = 5........ So.... Biiiiigggggg Problem here. Esspecially when the basic form of D&D has always been cross classing and mixing paths that equal in thousands apon thousands of ways to play..... and the best we get is 5?..... 5????? FIVE!!! thats it?!?!
Yeah. This is the design D&D has the abillity to mirror. But instead we are getting tera style carbon copys of each class. That is terrible for a D&D game. Esspecially a game that is "Suppose" to be following in the foot steps of NWN1+2 where there were hundreds of builds.... Technology is suppose to give us more... not back step us to less. I get more frustrated each day.