Wrong assumption. I only mentioned games still in service, one yet to be released in North America. Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't make them dead games. The comment on shelf life was to bring some objectivity to the table, which you refuse to employ. That is your choice. And that bring this around to my original point, choice is what defines us. Choice is also what defines the difference between an ok game or a great gaming experience.
Dark Age of Camelot still has thousands of subs, that doesn't mean it is an active game. It's dead other than the poor souls that still cling to it. Activity =! making money.
I reiterate to you the Guild Wars ability system. That did not add to the long life of the game. When you ask people what they liked about Guild Wars they will probably tell you the PvP, the progression, or the environment. Out of all the GW players I have talked to, not one has said a positive thing about the fact that you have a ton of abilities at your disposal since you only realistically use a small percentage of the ones given to you.
As I said before, I would rather have a game that is balanced, working, and bug-free than one that has disastrous mechanics, terrible gameplay, and the option for players to accidentally gimp themselves just for the sake of "choice". Choice isn't what defines us, it is the things we think are good and bad choices that do. It is the definitions of what is a choice that defines you as a person. Someone who is Religious feels they have no choice--what happens is God's will and not their's to change or interfere.
Edit: You can keep shouting the same things over and over, but the bottom line is every single thing in the entire world is finite. There is no infinite anything. And there is no video game, board game, tabletop, or made up game that has infinite choices. Crying for choices for the sake of having choices is a terrible design implementation and the only things you have given forth as an idea of "choice" is choosing Dungeoneering over Thievery. Is that all it takes for you to suddenly feel we have all this "choice" now?
To coin your phrase, you can keep shouting the same things over and over. You keep using the same example. I've given multiple names of working customizable games, and my mentioning the skills as examples doesn't mean that is the only thing that needs work. It's called an example for a reason. Also, just as a tree will still make a sound if it falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, if a game still has existing and paying subs while you're not part of it, it's still generating money, making it successful. I'll not touch this again. Enough is enough.
Games that offer optional customization come with a disclaimer: this feature is for advanced play, and should only be done by experienced players. They also have a means to ungimp yourself should you choose to ignore said warning, and that generates more income to the franchise as well. Win-win. Does this unbalance the game? No. The player is unbalancing themselves, and while it affects how well they perform in the game, it doesn't affect the game or its community. They can pay to re-balance once they become proficient in the system. Or they can wait until they know what they're doing and create a custom character that works for them, which is what posting the disclaimer during character creation on such games is supposed to accomplish in the first place. This increases a game's replay value.
I gimped my science officer in STO my first play-through. Used a respec token to reskill, and have some left should I choose to do so. I'm happy with the way it is now, but the choice is still there.
Also, just as a tree will still make a sound if it falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it
In order for a sound to exist, there has to be 3 parts. The matter making the sound, the actual sound waves, and something to interpret the sound (e.g. the fluid within a human ear). If any of the 3 components, and in this case the third, is removed then no sound actually exists.
You gimped yourself in STO without you knowing. How did you feel when you found out you have been playing the game wrong the entire time? What if no one finds this out until after a year of playing? They are going to be pissed. Maybe even leave.
And no, just because a game has subs does not mean it is making money. There are tons of costs associate with playing a game, and I can't even fathom to think you somehow manage to pay for server hosting, employee payment, and all the other components on a couple thousand subs.
Instead of crying about the lack of choice, why don't you actually give examples of choices that need to be implemented? It's like crying about taxes being too high, but not giving a reasonable reason why they should be lowered, how to do it, or the reasons for such. It's beyond irrational and people such as yourself should just not Beta test if all you are going to do is complain about something but give no feedback on the issue.
The problem with the whole "if a tree falls in the forest.." question is that there is always something in the forest to hear it fall so the question is really rather silly....
Also sound is really vibrations (which is really just energy that our brains interpret) so you don't really need ears to "hear" it and other creatures can "hear" sound.
I support a free flow build option. It can be a premium option you have to buy for each template, just give those who want to be able to fully customize their character that chance.
New players and players who do not want to worry can still have the fully templated out pregenerated character classes. Players who want to customize would be able to. No one looses that way.
I support a free flow build option. It can be a premium option you have to buy for each template, just give those who want to be able to fully customize their character that chance.
New players and players who do not want to worry can still have the fully templated out pregenerated character classes. Players who want to customize would be able to. No one looses that way.
Except the company that has to pay the developers to create it. Pay the QA team to make sure the devs do their job. Pay the person who oversees both groups of people. Pay the server company to push the patch through the servers. And ultimately pay the price if no one uses their system that is optional for the sake of "choice".
Except the company that has to pay the developers to create it. Pay the QA team to make sure the devs do their job. Pay the person who oversees both groups of people. Pay the server company to push the patch through the servers. And ultimately pay the price if no one uses their system that is optional for the sake of "choice".
Except do your really think no one would use it lol? I would rather say most people would use the custom builds therefore they would stand at making more money.
Except do your really think no one would use it lol? I would rather say most people would use the custom builds therefore they would stand at making more money.
Doesn't that depend if the "choice" build is actually better than what everyone is calling the "cookie-cutter"? Let's be honest here, regardless of there are 10 Feats, 100 Feats, or 10,000,000 Feats there are going to be a specific path that is the best for the specific thing you are trying to do. You all have some odd idea of some illusion of choice. Adding things for the sake of adding them does not promote growth within a game's development. What does promote growth is having a system that is strong, balanced, working, and ultimately fun to play. Just because you can't choose your class skill or get an extra 5% to hit because there's no Feat for it but you want one, doesn't mean the game needs those things added. What it means is that those two things are not a necessity for you to be successful in this game, and if anything that isn't currently in the game is required to continue to be successful, you can bet the Devs will release it as they need it.
I just want to reiterate again that adding things for the sake of having "choice" will get the game nowhere and not a single soul will appreciate it.
Doesn't that depend if the "choice" build is actually better than what everyone is calling the "cookie-cutter"? Let's be honest here, regardless of there are 10 Feats, 100 Feats, or 10,000,000 Feats there are going to be a specific path that is the best for the specific thing you are trying to do. You all have some odd idea of some illusion of choice. Adding things for the sake of adding them does not promote growth within a game's development. What does promote growth is having a system that is strong, balanced, working, and ultimately fun to play. Just because you can't choose your class skill or get an extra 5% to hit because there's no Feat for it but you want one, doesn't mean the game needs those things added. What it means is that those two things are not a necessity for you to be successful in this game, and if anything that isn't currently in the game is required to continue to be successful, you can bet the Devs will release it as they need it.
I just want to reiterate again that adding things for the sake of having "choice" will get the game nowhere and not a single soul will appreciate it.
Take DDO they redid the premade paths yet only newbs on their first run use them. Give people the "choice" to use custom builds and they will use them. Don't switch the subject the discussion is about if people would use custom builds not whether the game will be successfully without them.
IMHO if you add custom builds people will use em and even pay to unlock that option but like you say they would need to do some work which I don't believe they will do.
Just go to the ddo forum look under custom builds and you will see many many variants of different builds, sure there are cookie cutter builds and newbs use them until they are able to make their own variant based on their play style, hell even gear set ups are different now as you can do the same thing with different gear.
Taking away choice just because of laziness and because it's easier will not garner them as many fans than if they did give us choice and took the harder route.
Just go to the ddo forum look under custom builds and you will see many many variants of different builds, sure there are cookie cutter builds and newbs use them until they are able to make their own variant based on their play style, hell even gear set ups are different now as you can do the same thing with different gear.
And what did DDO look like during beta? Or when it was first released? Did it have this enormous range of options? Or did that develop over time, until it reached the enormous depth it has now.
I really don't get all the whole conversation. They are making a game, the game is going to be designed a certain way, and some people will like it that way, others won't. If enough people like it, the game lives. If not, the game dies, and the next developer hopefully learns from the experience.
Its not like the MMO world lacks for a range of choices. I'd even say that if you are looking for an authentic D&D experience with lots of customization, wouldn't DDO be the right choice? Why make two games in the same brand with the same appeal?
I love RP and customization too, and I played a fair bit of DDO for a few months. Nowadays I have a full time job, I`m getting more schooling, and the wife needs regular care and feeding. So I LIKE the idea that there is a game out there that I can play without having to spend a few hours micromanaging my build, tracking forums and questioning my approach, toolbar layout, feat choice and gear.
Drop in, play, hopefully join a PUG without some obsessives kicking me cause my build doesn`t match the expectations. I`m happy that there are now two choices for me, DDO and Neverwinter. I`ll play the one that suits my mood and available time, as it comes along.
TLDR; It doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little gamers don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world
I didn't play DDO during its beta so couldn't say and I don't get your point stereocyclops, you said a whole lot that didn't really have anything to do with what I am saying.
I am simply saying if they add custom builds many people will like it and many will pay for it ( I don't think it will happen though) but nowhere do I say the prefabs they have now need to go away or will suck out loud if they add custom builds. You will still be able to play without micro managing anything but those that want to will be able to if they want too.
If you don't want custom builds added for various reasons that is your prerogative but then I have the right to mine don't I.
Hibbleton would have me believe adding custom builds will do nothing for the game and no one will appreciate it and in a subtle way is claiming it would hurt the game financially.
I don't agree with this and he doesn't speak for me, only I do.
As for playing both DDO and Neverwinter that is my plan and I have been saying since before you even joined the forum that it would depend on my mood which I played atm and for probably similar reason
As for your TLDR; Wow thank you for stating the obvious, we wouldn't have guessed that if you hadn't told us In the future if you are going to comment on a post and quote part of it take the time to read it all so you actually know what we are talking about.
killingmeloudlyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Ya know I read through this entire thread and what this thread seems to be lacking is an actual understanding of the 4th ed rules set. If you have ever spent any time in that system NWO is VERY true to what it is representing. Hell when we played that game we all printed out cards and set them in front of us so it was like an MMO on tabletop. I do want to voice my opinion on a few things I have noticed throughout this thread.
"Stats need to matter more" If you have played through 4th ed you would know that your base stats aren't any more relevant there than they are here. You either a) used a point buy system or b) used an array which were just preset point buys and you chose the best. There are no ways in that game to increase your stats other than level ups, certain paragon paths, and a few specific epic destinies.
"Endgame is level 60" in more than 1 place it has been stated that the game from 1 to 60 is basicly D&D 4th ed 1-20 broken down into 60 levels to give you smaller rewards more often. What is lacking here is that 4th ed is not a 1-20 game it is a 1-30 game. So somewhere down the line I fully expect to see another 30 levels added to this game. Also, when you were in your Powers window there was a little button at the bottom left that said Path. If you clicked on that it showed your current path. and right under your listed paragon path was a little phrase "more coming soon" Guess what that phrase means? You got it, choices. And with what the paragon paths are offering is going to be huge changes in how that class will play. Not only will you be getting access to 1 at will, 1 encounter, and 1 daily that will be different from the other paths there are also class abilities in there that will completely alter the ways you do small things.
Will this allow your cleric to suddenly be a dps machine? Nope that is not how 4th ed works. The entire 4th ed system was about filling class roles. Those roles are Leader, Striker, Defender, Controller. So if you are a Priest you are always going to be falling into that buffing, healing, support role. That is what the class does and unless you are truly wanting to gimp yourself that is what you are going to do. This isn't wow. You are not going to get shadow priest. If you want shadow priest wait until they put out warlock and play that.
As far as feats go, if you go down the list of available feats in the 4th ed ph there really arent any Heroic feats that make any huge changes to the power of your character in any meaningful way. They give you small incremental bonuses that allow you to flesh out where you want to go but ultimately they are support feats. We basicly leveled a 4th ed character 1 to 10 this past weekend. Thats it. Once the game gets past launch and we start to see Vestige warlocks, Two weapon fighting rangers, bow focused rangers, Tacital warlords etc... etc... you just aren't going to have that choice you are looking for.
4th ed d&d is not 3.5 and just like 4th ed d&d, in NWO the tactics and skill you use to play your character are infinitely more important than the build of the character itself. In this game the days of sitting back and hitting a 3-5 button rotation while you watch youtube videos on your other screen simply does not exist.
Finally 4th ed is about balance. All classes across 4th ed (atleast up until I stopped playing, I don't really know about now) were very balanced within the role they were supposed to fill. The numbers worked out to be very similar what mattered was how you employed your limited number of powers to take maximum advantage of what they had to offer. Neverwinter Online is the same.
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killingmeloudlyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I didn't play DDO during its beta so couldn't say and I don't get your point stereocyclops, you said a whole lot that didn't really have anything to do with what I am saying.
I am simply saying if they add custom builds many people will like it and many will pay for it ( I don't think it will happen though) but nowhere do I say the prefabs they have now need to go away or will suck out loud if they add custom builds. You will still be able to play without micro managing anything but those that want to will be able to if they want too.
If you don't want custom builds added for various reasons that is your prerogative but then I have the right to mine don't I.
Hibbleton would have me believe adding custom builds will do nothing for the game and no one will appreciate it and in a subtle way is claiming it would hurt the game financially.
I don't agree with this and he doesn't speak for me, only I do.
As for playing both DDO and Neverwinter that is my plan and I have been saying since before you even joined the forum that it would depend on my mood which I played atm and for probably similar reason
As for your TLDR; Wow thank you for stating the obvious, we wouldn't have guessed that if you hadn't told us In the future if you are going to comment on a post and quote part of it take the time to read it all so you actually know what we are talking about.
I really do not think you understand what you are asking for by custom builds. If you understood 4th ed you would know that what you are refering to as "custom builds" really are just the different paths you can take a class down. Take warlock for instance, Vestige warlock, infernal warlock, star pact warlock, dark pact warlock. Those are your "Custom builds" which in the case of Neverwinter Online are their classes. And saying something like oh let me take this power at this level instead of the power you have listed is ridiculous. In the end you are going to have the same powers available to you to put on your bar so what difference does that make? Oh let me pick up this skill instead of that skill. Why? There are items in the game to allow that. Are you really wanting to be able to assign your stats point by point? Why? They are going to end up almost exactly like the arrays you are being presented with. I don't want to come across like a homer fanboy because I know they still have work to do to get the game right but the best way to keep balance within a game is to limit choice.
You stated earlier that your a gamer so maybe what you are looking for is a way for you to break the system to make you the all powerful uberness? Or do you want there to be more choices so people can make the wrong ones for you to feel better about your epeen? Not trying to be a jerk but I just can't figure out the motive behind your arguments and I have yet to see you put out a list of these choices you want because I seriously think that you don't know what you want. The more I read the more it seems like you want something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about just to have something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about.
Thanks KML for fleshing out what I was trying to say in the end, albeit in a very blunt way haha. The illusion of choice only makes the game more complicated than it needs to be since in the end we'll all be using the same builds when it comes down to min/max'ing. And if we have a ton of choices, the people who aren't min/max'ing are just going to lose time and time again, get frustrated, and either go to the main build or quit. Just like how DDO is right now. And just like WoW has become over the years by cutting out useless talents and making sure the class works and is balanced first, then worry about the rest later.
I really do not think you understand what you are asking for by custom builds. If you understood 4th ed you would know that what you are refering to as "custom builds" really are just the different paths you can take a class down. Take warlock for instance, Vestige warlock, infernal warlock, star pact warlock, dark pact warlock. Those are your "Custom builds" which in the case of Neverwinter Online are their classes. And saying something like oh let me take this power at this level instead of the power you have listed is ridiculous. In the end you are going to have the same powers available to you to put on your bar so what difference does that make? Oh let me pick up this skill instead of that skill. Why? There are items in the game to allow that. Are you really wanting to be able to assign your stats point by point? Why? They are going to end up almost exactly like the arrays you are being presented with. I don't want to come across like a homer fanboy because I know they still have work to do to get the game right but the best way to keep balance within a game is to limit choice.
You stated earlier that your a gamer so maybe what you are looking for is a way for you to break the system to make you the all powerful uberness? Or do you want there to be more choices so people can make the wrong ones for you to feel better about your epeen? Not trying to be a jerk but I just can't figure out the motive behind your arguments and I have yet to see you put out a list of these choices you want because I seriously think that you don't know what you want. The more I read the more it seems like you want something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about just to have something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about.
No I understand very well, the thing is Cryptic is forcing us into certain builds out of laziness. What they are doing is forcing the suggested prefabs down our throats instead of offering the classes themselves and letting us choose which builds to use.
I mean this way they can offer other prefabs later on at some point far far away in the future. 4e limits min/maxing a whole lot for the sake of balance and that is fine but what is happening here is very dang rigid even for 4E.
What I am saying is there was no need to "limit us" for balance sake as 4E is designed to do that already. I like the game as it is but I would like it more if we had more choice and so would many others I am sure.
Dunno where you read me saying I am a gamer, maybe you are confused? Now for my motives they are simple I don't like it when peeps speak for me or try to say what I would like or appreciate in a game.
Neither do I like it when other people troll me claiming they can't see what my motive or that I "want something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about just to have something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about"
These are beta forums, it's a place to comment and express what you want or would like to be in the game, it's a place to comment on what you find is broken or bugged or needs changing. It's a place to try and see things from all angles. Beta forums are not a place to attack other players because you do not agree with them.
Last thing technically I am not asking for custom builds because I know it will not happen but I will speak out if other posters try to speak for me.
Not everyone believes stupid is better just because it is easier. Anyhoot I said my piece on this subject so feel free to flame on, I will not waste my time answering.
Edit: I found something that makes it clear to me your post was just to troll and flame.
I am very interested to get into this game. I am coming from DDO pretty exclusively for the past few years so the idea of roles concerns me. Part of the appeal of a ddo game for me is freedom to build how I choose. We will see what this game really brings.
I really wonder how a lot of the players that complain about character builds and customization would of handled playing the Red box basic set in the early haydays of D&D? Back then you had a choice of 7 classes, Human fighter, thief, cleric, wizard or elf, dwarf, halfling (yes the subraces were classes back then). And you just wrote down what the book said you could do and you played. I have been played every edition and was actually turned off by 3 and 3.5, which over the 30 year life span of D&D was a whopping 5-7 years. I found that this game is, like KML said, a good representation of the 4E rules and I enjoyed it very much. Do I enjoy the PnP version not as much. But as I prefer the R in RPG more then the game mechanics involved so I can pretty much tolerate playing in any system.
The true customization in a game like this comes from which skill to slot at a given time. I also believe that once you chose a Paragon Path the other 2 path's feats and skills are now off limits, which is jsut as much customization as most any other MMO.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
And what did DDO look like during beta? Or when it was first released? Did it have this enormous range of options? Or did that develop over time, until it reached the enormous depth it has now.
Since there are a lot of questions about this...
DDO, based on 3.5, launched with plenty of options. It played a lot like PnP D&D and gave you the point-buy system of attributes and a great variety of races/classes for the setting.
Combat in NWO was more interesting than DDO's for launch time, but DDO felt a lot more like D&D dungeon crawling.
As for your TLDR; Wow thank you for stating the obvious, we wouldn't have guessed that if you hadn't told us In the future if you are going to comment on a post and quote part of it take the time to read it all so you actually know what we are talking about.
Wow. I think you need to sit back from the keyboard and have a nice relaxing glass of wine. The TLDR is a (slightly modified) quote from Casablanca, spoken by Humphrey Bogart. Taken in context, he is saying that stuff happens, we don`t have a lot of control over it, and the best one can do is live life and enjoy what you can of it. Its a great film, you should check it out if you haven`t seen it.
I went to a lot of effort not to be inflammatory, so I`m sorry if you read more into my reply than intended.
Wow. I think you need to sit back from the keyboard and have a nice relaxing glass of wine. The TLDR is a (slightly modified) quote from Casablanca, spoken by Humphrey Bogart. Taken in context, he is saying that stuff happens, we don`t have a lot of control over it, and the best one can do is live life and enjoy what you can of it. Its a great film, you should check it out if you haven`t seen it.
I went to a lot of effort not to be inflammatory, so I`m sorry if you read more into my reply than intended.
No actually TLDR means "too long didn't read" and is usually used to be subtly offensive.
But if that is not what you meant then you have my apologies.
DDO, based on 3.5, launched with plenty of options. It played a lot like PnP D&D and gave you the point-buy system of attributes and a great variety of races/classes for the setting.
Combat in NWO was more interesting than DDO's for launch time, but DDO felt a lot more like D&D dungeon crawling.
Thanks! I thought that might be the case - the whole of DDO plays a lot more like I would expect an RPG in a persistent world to play, so it seems reasonable that the deeper customization would be designed in from scratch. Knowing that NWO was more action oriented made me expect much less in that regard.
I think if I feel like guilding up and really trying to RP, I will probably stick with DDO. NWO seems much more appropriate for a few hours of hack and slash joy a week. Someone else said it earlier in the thread - this will make a great second game.
I really wonder how a lot of the players that complain about character builds and customization would of handled playing the Red box basic set in the early haydays of D&D? Back then you had a choice of 7 classes, Human fighter, thief, cleric, wizard or elf, dwarf, halfling (yes the subraces were classes back then). And you just wrote down what the book said you could do and you played. I have been played every edition and was actually turned off by 3 and 3.5, which over the 30 year life span of D&D was a whopping 5-7 years. I found that this game is, like KML said, a good representation of the 4E rules and I enjoyed it very much. Do I enjoy the PnP version not as much. But as I prefer the R in RPG more then the game mechanics involved so I can pretty much tolerate playing in any system.
4E's lifespan will be even shorter, as 5E is in the works since the beginning of last year. WotC is still accepting beta applications, something never before done in any D&D edition (Pathfinder did it but that's a D20 franchise, not D&D). 3E spanned from 2000 to 2008, and the next edition will try to amalgam all the previous editions before it, making 4E the most short-lived edition yet. Everything happens for a reason. Part of the reason that NWO feels rushed to some of us might be due to the fact that WotC has felt pressure from its fan base on a working 4E title its inception and has failed to deliver. Enter Atari/Cryptic/PW with a co-op console game that has evolved to an MMO. But is it truly evolution? You decide.
4E is enjoyable and easy to jump into; that is its allure to new players and to some old ones. I'm all for growth, it keeps an industry going. 4E advocates here omit or are unaware of the fact that these builds are not the be all of D&D. They are there to help new players branch out after easing into the experience, after they've tasted the core classes, which are absent here. We're not talking full freeform, since 4E constricts that. Take us back to core and let us choose builds, don't arrange the builds as classes themselves. Then the paragon paths will be seen as the further customization they are.
Thanks! I thought that might be the case - the whole of DDO plays a lot more like I would expect an RPG in a persistent world to play, so it seems reasonable that the deeper customization would be designed in from scratch. Knowing that NWO was more action oriented made me expect much less in that regard.
I think if I feel like guilding up and really trying to RP, I will probably stick with DDO. NWO seems much more appropriate for a few hours of hack and slash joy a week. Someone else said it earlier in the thread - this will make a great second game.
I'm pretty sure Cryptic and PW would dread the idea of playing second fiddle to any game, much less its predecessor in the D&D pantheon. The idea is to draw more gamers, yet keep the ones that are already familiar with the franchise. I also concur with this assessment. NWO is a fun game, but will not be receiving all of the focus I dedicated to DDO at the start. I'll still be playing DDO to get that good ol' D&D feel.
However, if Cryptic doesn't keep NWO current with WotC's editions, someone else might be making another D&D game from 5E that will make this discussion moot. NWO should be designed in such a way that it can adapt to these changes that are around the corner.
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seashell9Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 25Arc User
Ya know I read through this entire thread and what this thread seems to be lacking is an actual understanding of the 4th ed rules set. *snip shortened* Neverwinter Online is the same.
Honestly, you just sound like a blind defender who tries to cover up anything with the "It's the 4e edition" smashhammer. But actually it isn't like that at all.
"Going to gimp yourself" is a decieving truth. The error you made for your argument is, that Cryptic has taken PREMADE BUILDS and called them CLASSES. A Cleric is just that. A Cleric is not just Leader. A Cleric is either Leader OR Defender, and thanks to player and gear freedom even just as good or better STRIKER/ Controller than Striker prebuilds of other Classes. Because, the 4e still allows a lot of freedom in character builds.
It is right that a Devoted Cleric (given the freedom) is going to "gimp" itself when he starts wearing a sword and shield but that's just the PREBUILD of a Cleric.
What you need to understand is, that players here who ask for more choice, fundamentally ask for a 4e Cleric class (and any other), not the way Cryptic turned Prebuilds into "Classes" and as a result really have no real choice.
For arguments sake, Cryptic didn't try to create the Priest class of WoW, they didn't even took the Shadow Priest. They took a very specific (15/30/45/60/75/90) build of Shadow Priest and made those a Class. While you are right to reason that giving more "weapon" choice is pointless (as you will be gimped) - that's excatly the point of those arguing otherwise.
But one thing remains a fact, "classes" in neverwinter are not anywhere near 4e, they are premade Builds labeled as classes and in doing so fail to be 4e class conform.
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killingmeloudlyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Edit: I found something that makes it clear to me your post was just to troll and flame.
You are right. Then I played it. Now I have no issue with it because I have seen it implemented in the game and completely understand where it is coming from, why it was implemented in the way it was and believe they went about it the correct way for their game. So basicly your list of changes you want to see by making suggestions in the beta forums are... "I don't like the class system they need to scrap it all and start over?"
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killingmeloudlyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Honestly, you just sound like a blind defender who tries to cover up anything with the "It's the 4e edition" smashhammer. But actually it isn't like that at all.
"Going to gimp yourself" is a decieving truth. The error you made for your argument is, that Cryptic has taken PREMADE BUILDS and called them CLASSES. A Cleric is just that. A Cleric is not just Leader. A Cleric is either Leader OR Defender, and thanks to player and gear freedom even just as good or better STRIKER/ Controller than Striker prebuilds of other Classes. Because, the 4e still allows a lot of freedom in character builds.
It is right that a Devoted Cleric (given the freedom) is going to "gimp" itself when he starts wearing a sword and shield but that's just the PREBUILD of a Cleric.
What you need to understand is, that players here who ask for more choice, fundamentally ask for a 4e Cleric class (and any other), not the way Cryptic turned Prebuilds into "Classes" and as a result really have no real choice.
For arguments sake, Cryptic didn't try to create the Priest class of WoW, they didn't even took the Shadow Priest. They took a very specific (15/30/45/60/75/90) build of Shadow Priest and made those a Class. While you are right to reason that giving more "weapon" choice is pointless (as you will be gimped) - that's excatly the point of those arguing otherwise.
But one thing remains a fact, "classes" in neverwinter are not anywhere near 4e, they are premade Builds labeled as classes and in doing so fail to be 4e class conform.
Unfortunately they aren't going to scrap their entire class system. That much is simple and obvious. All of the complaints I see seem to sprout from that very core mechanic of the game. I want more weapon choices, which basicly means "I want more skins" because their gear system is built in such a way to work within the class system they have built. Everything comes from that. While maybe I sound like a fanboy homer, which is fine btw, I am not going to focus my time on unreasonable requests and complaints and instead look at the things that can be changed to make the game better. Like their annoying <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> hey everyone be in the same instance now find a gate and go to the quest... oops someone didn't come through time to drop group, reform find a protector's enclave that isnt full of people we can all meet at group up and then try to hit the dungeon together again. Anyway that is for another thread.
And what did DDO look like during beta? Or when it was first released? Did it have this enormous range of options? Or did that develop over time, until it reached the enormous depth it has now.
I really don't get all the whole conversation. They are making a game, the game is going to be designed a certain way, and some people will like it that way, others won't. If enough people like it, the game lives. If not, the game dies, and the next developer hopefully learns from the experience.
Its not like the MMO world lacks for a range of choices. I'd even say that if you are looking for an authentic D&D experience with lots of customization, wouldn't DDO be the right choice? Why make two games in the same brand with the same appeal?
I love RP and customization too, and I played a fair bit of DDO for a few months. Nowadays I have a full time job, I`m getting more schooling, and the wife needs regular care and feeding. So I LIKE the idea that there is a game out there that I can play without having to spend a few hours micromanaging my build, tracking forums and questioning my approach, toolbar layout, feat choice and gear.
Drop in, play, hopefully join a PUG without some obsessives kicking me cause my build doesn`t match the expectations. I`m happy that there are now two choices for me, DDO and Neverwinter. I`ll play the one that suits my mood and available time, as it comes along.
TLDR; It doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little gamers don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world
DDO had full 3.X builds during beta. They did not add the "paths" until it went F2P and even then only new players used them.
I really do not think you understand what you are asking for by custom builds. If you understood 4th ed you would know that what you are refering to as "custom builds" really are just the different paths you can take a class down. Take warlock for instance, Vestige warlock, infernal warlock, star pact warlock, dark pact warlock. Those are your "Custom builds" which in the case of Neverwinter Online are their classes. And saying something like oh let me take this power at this level instead of the power you have listed is ridiculous. In the end you are going to have the same powers available to you to put on your bar so what difference does that make? Oh let me pick up this skill instead of that skill. Why? There are items in the game to allow that. Are you really wanting to be able to assign your stats point by point? Why? They are going to end up almost exactly like the arrays you are being presented with. I don't want to come across like a homer fanboy because I know they still have work to do to get the game right but the best way to keep balance within a game is to limit choice.
You stated earlier that your a gamer so maybe what you are looking for is a way for you to break the system to make you the all powerful uberness? Or do you want there to be more choices so people can make the wrong ones for you to feel better about your epeen? Not trying to be a jerk but I just can't figure out the motive behind your arguments and I have yet to see you put out a list of these choices you want because I seriously think that you don't know what you want. The more I read the more it seems like you want something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about just to have something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about.
Not entirely true nor accurate.
The suggested 'paths' in 4e do not limit you the way the class 'templates' in NW do. In 4e you make a choice on your class - then you choose from a rather large list the class abilities you want so as to custom tailor your character. YES for the most part they are all equal, but they do allow for character customization from the very beginning.
At first level you choose 1 daily, 2 encounter and 2 at will abilities/powers. You could have 2 Trickster Rogues or 2 Guardian Fighters who had completely different choices and STILL be called Trickster or Guardian. Every level there after you choose not only powers but feats and skills, etc. Races have powers/abilities you can take vs class ones, etc. The customization is quite large in 4e.
Yes, the CLASSES are set up to fulfill a role (Striker, guardian, leader, etc.) but the 'builds' are how you custom tailor them to your wants/needs.
The fact is: Cryptic already allows for freeform characters in CO, it is a pay to get option if you are F2p. They need to do the same here.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
edited February 2013
Well, the most used argument in this thread is "It is not like in the PnP game!!!" which is kinda sad.
And I do not agree with the OP. I played mainly Guardian Fighter during the beta and by selecting the right powers, traits and items at the end I did more damage than a rogue 2 levels above me. Sure I was limited by the skills of my current class but in the end there were a lot of skills to choose from. The only thing that I found lacking is diversity when it comes to at-will powers. Other than that I found several viable ways to play the character and went for the one that suited me best. I believe this is more important than having 3 different weapons that all use the same skills and animations as in many other MMORPGs or having plenty of skills that do the exact same thing in the end which is also a fault of the MMORPG genre.
If you want PnP D&D then go and play PnP D&D - this is not it. If you cannot stay open to new ideas and you complain about something just because it is different then too bad for you.
Also whoever blames Cryptic for being lazy looks like a spoiled brat in my eyes. All the classes so far are fun to play with unique class mechanic that makes them really different gameplay-wise and have an array of fun skills you can choose from suitable for different situations. It is really sad some people cannot appreciate that.
Well, the most used argument in this thread is "It is not like in the PnP game!!!" which is kinda sad.
Actually, it's more "I can't make my Battle Cleric!". But removing the term Devoted from the Cleric class won't fix anything. It will still play as a Devoted Cleric in-game, because there are no Battle Cleric related powers currently (all the melee ones).
The game lack build variety and I believe Cryptic is quite aware of that. They purposely focused on Striker (Trickster Rogue, TWF), Defender (GF), Controller (Control Wizard) and Leader (Devoted Cleric) to be ready for release and support group content. Anything else will have to wait for after launch.
The suggested 'paths' in 4e do not limit you the way the class 'templates' in NW do. In 4e you make a choice on your class - then you choose from a rather large list the class abilities you want so as to custom tailor your character. YES for the most part they are all equal, but they do allow for character customization from the very beginning.
At first level you choose 1 daily, 2 encounter and 2 at will abilities/powers. You could have 2 Trickster Rogues or 2 Guardian Fighters who had completely different choices and STILL be called Trickster or Guardian. Every level there after you choose not only powers but feats and skills, etc. Races have powers/abilities you can take vs class ones, etc. The customization is quite large in 4e.
Yes, the CLASSES are set up to fulfill a role (Striker, guardian, leader, etc.) but the 'builds' are how you custom tailor them to your wants/needs.
The fact is: Cryptic already allows for freeform characters in CO, it is a pay to get option if you are F2p. They need to do the same here.
Do you not realize that at any given moment in Neverwinter any Trickster Rogue, Guardian Fighter, Devoted Cleric, Control Wizrd, or Great Weapon Fighter will have different Dailies, Encounters, and At-Will on their toolbar? You can't swap out any of those when they are on cooldown, and the fact that hitting P causes you to lose control of your character, pretty much means you are locked into your choices for most situations. So taking your "4e has a lot of customization" idea, so does this game in the fact that we can all choose what Powers we want on our toolbars at any given time.
Edit: Also, if they just copy-pasted CO's class ideas, what would be the point of even playing this game? Because it has the D&D logo slapped on it? That's just as bad as claiming this game needs more choice without giving any examples of things that could be added to allure that there is choice (when there isn't). Even looking at Freeform in CO, there is a SPECIFIC build for every single thing you want to do, which completely removes the idea you have that everyone has choice and completely envokes the ability for new people to gimp themselves, and then be told "too bad, and you have to give us a 5 spot to change it". That pisses people off. I don't care if you personally didn't have a probably with STO or CO's ability to gimp new players, but the fact remains games that offer the ability for new and old players to have a level playing field are always successful and those that have a complex, "freeform" build path only attract those that min/max on pretty much everything.
Comments
Dark Age of Camelot still has thousands of subs, that doesn't mean it is an active game. It's dead other than the poor souls that still cling to it. Activity =! making money.
I reiterate to you the Guild Wars ability system. That did not add to the long life of the game. When you ask people what they liked about Guild Wars they will probably tell you the PvP, the progression, or the environment. Out of all the GW players I have talked to, not one has said a positive thing about the fact that you have a ton of abilities at your disposal since you only realistically use a small percentage of the ones given to you.
As I said before, I would rather have a game that is balanced, working, and bug-free than one that has disastrous mechanics, terrible gameplay, and the option for players to accidentally gimp themselves just for the sake of "choice". Choice isn't what defines us, it is the things we think are good and bad choices that do. It is the definitions of what is a choice that defines you as a person. Someone who is Religious feels they have no choice--what happens is God's will and not their's to change or interfere.
Edit: You can keep shouting the same things over and over, but the bottom line is every single thing in the entire world is finite. There is no infinite anything. And there is no video game, board game, tabletop, or made up game that has infinite choices. Crying for choices for the sake of having choices is a terrible design implementation and the only things you have given forth as an idea of "choice" is choosing Dungeoneering over Thievery. Is that all it takes for you to suddenly feel we have all this "choice" now?
Games that offer optional customization come with a disclaimer: this feature is for advanced play, and should only be done by experienced players. They also have a means to ungimp yourself should you choose to ignore said warning, and that generates more income to the franchise as well. Win-win. Does this unbalance the game? No. The player is unbalancing themselves, and while it affects how well they perform in the game, it doesn't affect the game or its community. They can pay to re-balance once they become proficient in the system. Or they can wait until they know what they're doing and create a custom character that works for them, which is what posting the disclaimer during character creation on such games is supposed to accomplish in the first place. This increases a game's replay value.
I gimped my science officer in STO my first play-through. Used a respec token to reskill, and have some left should I choose to do so. I'm happy with the way it is now, but the choice is still there.
In order for a sound to exist, there has to be 3 parts. The matter making the sound, the actual sound waves, and something to interpret the sound (e.g. the fluid within a human ear). If any of the 3 components, and in this case the third, is removed then no sound actually exists.
You gimped yourself in STO without you knowing. How did you feel when you found out you have been playing the game wrong the entire time? What if no one finds this out until after a year of playing? They are going to be pissed. Maybe even leave.
And no, just because a game has subs does not mean it is making money. There are tons of costs associate with playing a game, and I can't even fathom to think you somehow manage to pay for server hosting, employee payment, and all the other components on a couple thousand subs.
Instead of crying about the lack of choice, why don't you actually give examples of choices that need to be implemented? It's like crying about taxes being too high, but not giving a reasonable reason why they should be lowered, how to do it, or the reasons for such. It's beyond irrational and people such as yourself should just not Beta test if all you are going to do is complain about something but give no feedback on the issue.
Also sound is really vibrations (which is really just energy that our brains interpret) so you don't really need ears to "hear" it and other creatures can "hear" sound.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
New players and players who do not want to worry can still have the fully templated out pregenerated character classes. Players who want to customize would be able to. No one looses that way.
Except the company that has to pay the developers to create it. Pay the QA team to make sure the devs do their job. Pay the person who oversees both groups of people. Pay the server company to push the patch through the servers. And ultimately pay the price if no one uses their system that is optional for the sake of "choice".
Except do your really think no one would use it lol? I would rather say most people would use the custom builds therefore they would stand at making more money.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Doesn't that depend if the "choice" build is actually better than what everyone is calling the "cookie-cutter"? Let's be honest here, regardless of there are 10 Feats, 100 Feats, or 10,000,000 Feats there are going to be a specific path that is the best for the specific thing you are trying to do. You all have some odd idea of some illusion of choice. Adding things for the sake of adding them does not promote growth within a game's development. What does promote growth is having a system that is strong, balanced, working, and ultimately fun to play. Just because you can't choose your class skill or get an extra 5% to hit because there's no Feat for it but you want one, doesn't mean the game needs those things added. What it means is that those two things are not a necessity for you to be successful in this game, and if anything that isn't currently in the game is required to continue to be successful, you can bet the Devs will release it as they need it.
I just want to reiterate again that adding things for the sake of having "choice" will get the game nowhere and not a single soul will appreciate it.
Take DDO they redid the premade paths yet only newbs on their first run use them. Give people the "choice" to use custom builds and they will use them. Don't switch the subject the discussion is about if people would use custom builds not whether the game will be successfully without them.
IMHO if you add custom builds people will use em and even pay to unlock that option but like you say they would need to do some work which I don't believe they will do.
Just go to the ddo forum look under custom builds and you will see many many variants of different builds, sure there are cookie cutter builds and newbs use them until they are able to make their own variant based on their play style, hell even gear set ups are different now as you can do the same thing with different gear.
Taking away choice just because of laziness and because it's easier will not garner them as many fans than if they did give us choice and took the harder route.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
And what did DDO look like during beta? Or when it was first released? Did it have this enormous range of options? Or did that develop over time, until it reached the enormous depth it has now.
I really don't get all the whole conversation. They are making a game, the game is going to be designed a certain way, and some people will like it that way, others won't. If enough people like it, the game lives. If not, the game dies, and the next developer hopefully learns from the experience.
Its not like the MMO world lacks for a range of choices. I'd even say that if you are looking for an authentic D&D experience with lots of customization, wouldn't DDO be the right choice? Why make two games in the same brand with the same appeal?
I love RP and customization too, and I played a fair bit of DDO for a few months. Nowadays I have a full time job, I`m getting more schooling, and the wife needs regular care and feeding. So I LIKE the idea that there is a game out there that I can play without having to spend a few hours micromanaging my build, tracking forums and questioning my approach, toolbar layout, feat choice and gear.
Drop in, play, hopefully join a PUG without some obsessives kicking me cause my build doesn`t match the expectations. I`m happy that there are now two choices for me, DDO and Neverwinter. I`ll play the one that suits my mood and available time, as it comes along.
TLDR; It doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little gamers don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world
I am simply saying if they add custom builds many people will like it and many will pay for it ( I don't think it will happen though) but nowhere do I say the prefabs they have now need to go away or will suck out loud if they add custom builds. You will still be able to play without micro managing anything but those that want to will be able to if they want too.
If you don't want custom builds added for various reasons that is your prerogative but then I have the right to mine don't I.
Hibbleton would have me believe adding custom builds will do nothing for the game and no one will appreciate it and in a subtle way is claiming it would hurt the game financially.
I don't agree with this and he doesn't speak for me, only I do.
As for playing both DDO and Neverwinter that is my plan and I have been saying since before you even joined the forum that it would depend on my mood which I played atm and for probably similar reason
As for your TLDR; Wow thank you for stating the obvious, we wouldn't have guessed that if you hadn't told us
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
"Stats need to matter more" If you have played through 4th ed you would know that your base stats aren't any more relevant there than they are here. You either a) used a point buy system or b) used an array which were just preset point buys and you chose the best. There are no ways in that game to increase your stats other than level ups, certain paragon paths, and a few specific epic destinies.
"Endgame is level 60" in more than 1 place it has been stated that the game from 1 to 60 is basicly D&D 4th ed 1-20 broken down into 60 levels to give you smaller rewards more often. What is lacking here is that 4th ed is not a 1-20 game it is a 1-30 game. So somewhere down the line I fully expect to see another 30 levels added to this game. Also, when you were in your Powers window there was a little button at the bottom left that said Path. If you clicked on that it showed your current path. and right under your listed paragon path was a little phrase "more coming soon" Guess what that phrase means? You got it, choices. And with what the paragon paths are offering is going to be huge changes in how that class will play. Not only will you be getting access to 1 at will, 1 encounter, and 1 daily that will be different from the other paths there are also class abilities in there that will completely alter the ways you do small things.
Will this allow your cleric to suddenly be a dps machine? Nope that is not how 4th ed works. The entire 4th ed system was about filling class roles. Those roles are Leader, Striker, Defender, Controller. So if you are a Priest you are always going to be falling into that buffing, healing, support role. That is what the class does and unless you are truly wanting to gimp yourself that is what you are going to do. This isn't wow. You are not going to get shadow priest. If you want shadow priest wait until they put out warlock and play that.
As far as feats go, if you go down the list of available feats in the 4th ed ph there really arent any Heroic feats that make any huge changes to the power of your character in any meaningful way. They give you small incremental bonuses that allow you to flesh out where you want to go but ultimately they are support feats. We basicly leveled a 4th ed character 1 to 10 this past weekend. Thats it. Once the game gets past launch and we start to see Vestige warlocks, Two weapon fighting rangers, bow focused rangers, Tacital warlords etc... etc... you just aren't going to have that choice you are looking for.
4th ed d&d is not 3.5 and just like 4th ed d&d, in NWO the tactics and skill you use to play your character are infinitely more important than the build of the character itself. In this game the days of sitting back and hitting a 3-5 button rotation while you watch youtube videos on your other screen simply does not exist.
Finally 4th ed is about balance. All classes across 4th ed (atleast up until I stopped playing, I don't really know about now) were very balanced within the role they were supposed to fill. The numbers worked out to be very similar what mattered was how you employed your limited number of powers to take maximum advantage of what they had to offer. Neverwinter Online is the same.
I really do not think you understand what you are asking for by custom builds. If you understood 4th ed you would know that what you are refering to as "custom builds" really are just the different paths you can take a class down. Take warlock for instance, Vestige warlock, infernal warlock, star pact warlock, dark pact warlock. Those are your "Custom builds" which in the case of Neverwinter Online are their classes. And saying something like oh let me take this power at this level instead of the power you have listed is ridiculous. In the end you are going to have the same powers available to you to put on your bar so what difference does that make? Oh let me pick up this skill instead of that skill. Why? There are items in the game to allow that. Are you really wanting to be able to assign your stats point by point? Why? They are going to end up almost exactly like the arrays you are being presented with. I don't want to come across like a homer fanboy because I know they still have work to do to get the game right but the best way to keep balance within a game is to limit choice.
You stated earlier that your a gamer so maybe what you are looking for is a way for you to break the system to make you the all powerful uberness? Or do you want there to be more choices so people can make the wrong ones for you to feel better about your epeen? Not trying to be a jerk but I just can't figure out the motive behind your arguments and I have yet to see you put out a list of these choices you want because I seriously think that you don't know what you want. The more I read the more it seems like you want something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about just to have something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about.
No I understand very well, the thing is Cryptic is forcing us into certain builds out of laziness. What they are doing is forcing the suggested prefabs down our throats instead of offering the classes themselves and letting us choose which builds to use.
I mean this way they can offer other prefabs later on at some point far far away in the future. 4e limits min/maxing a whole lot for the sake of balance and that is fine but what is happening here is very dang rigid even for 4E.
What I am saying is there was no need to "limit us" for balance sake as 4E is designed to do that already. I like the game as it is but I would like it more if we had more choice and so would many others I am sure.
Dunno where you read me saying I am a gamer, maybe you are confused? Now for my motives they are simple I don't like it when peeps speak for me or try to say what I would like or appreciate in a game.
Neither do I like it when other people troll me claiming they can't see what my motive or that I "want something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about just to have something to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> about"
These are beta forums, it's a place to comment and express what you want or would like to be in the game, it's a place to comment on what you find is broken or bugged or needs changing. It's a place to try and see things from all angles. Beta forums are not a place to attack other players because you do not agree with them.
Last thing technically I am not asking for custom builds because I know it will not happen but I will speak out if other posters try to speak for me.
Not everyone believes stupid is better just because it is easier. Anyhoot I said my piece on this subject so feel free to flame on, I will not waste my time answering.
Edit: I found something that makes it clear to me your post was just to troll and flame.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Character is what a man is in the dark
Since there are a lot of questions about this...
DDO, based on 3.5, launched with plenty of options. It played a lot like PnP D&D and gave you the point-buy system of attributes and a great variety of races/classes for the setting.
Combat in NWO was more interesting than DDO's for launch time, but DDO felt a lot more like D&D dungeon crawling.
Wow. I think you need to sit back from the keyboard and have a nice relaxing glass of wine. The TLDR is a (slightly modified) quote from Casablanca, spoken by Humphrey Bogart. Taken in context, he is saying that stuff happens, we don`t have a lot of control over it, and the best one can do is live life and enjoy what you can of it. Its a great film, you should check it out if you haven`t seen it.
I went to a lot of effort not to be inflammatory, so I`m sorry if you read more into my reply than intended.
No actually TLDR means "too long didn't read" and is usually used to be subtly offensive.
But if that is not what you meant then you have my apologies.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Thanks! I thought that might be the case - the whole of DDO plays a lot more like I would expect an RPG in a persistent world to play, so it seems reasonable that the deeper customization would be designed in from scratch. Knowing that NWO was more action oriented made me expect much less in that regard.
I think if I feel like guilding up and really trying to RP, I will probably stick with DDO. NWO seems much more appropriate for a few hours of hack and slash joy a week. Someone else said it earlier in the thread - this will make a great second game.
4E's lifespan will be even shorter, as 5E is in the works since the beginning of last year. WotC is still accepting beta applications, something never before done in any D&D edition (Pathfinder did it but that's a D20 franchise, not D&D). 3E spanned from 2000 to 2008, and the next edition will try to amalgam all the previous editions before it, making 4E the most short-lived edition yet. Everything happens for a reason. Part of the reason that NWO feels rushed to some of us might be due to the fact that WotC has felt pressure from its fan base on a working 4E title its inception and has failed to deliver. Enter Atari/Cryptic/PW with a co-op console game that has evolved to an MMO. But is it truly evolution? You decide.
4E is enjoyable and easy to jump into; that is its allure to new players and to some old ones. I'm all for growth, it keeps an industry going. 4E advocates here omit or are unaware of the fact that these builds are not the be all of D&D. They are there to help new players branch out after easing into the experience, after they've tasted the core classes, which are absent here. We're not talking full freeform, since 4E constricts that. Take us back to core and let us choose builds, don't arrange the builds as classes themselves. Then the paragon paths will be seen as the further customization they are.
I'm pretty sure Cryptic and PW would dread the idea of playing second fiddle to any game, much less its predecessor in the D&D pantheon. The idea is to draw more gamers, yet keep the ones that are already familiar with the franchise. I also concur with this assessment. NWO is a fun game, but will not be receiving all of the focus I dedicated to DDO at the start. I'll still be playing DDO to get that good ol' D&D feel.
However, if Cryptic doesn't keep NWO current with WotC's editions, someone else might be making another D&D game from 5E that will make this discussion moot. NWO should be designed in such a way that it can adapt to these changes that are around the corner.
Honestly, you just sound like a blind defender who tries to cover up anything with the "It's the 4e edition" smashhammer. But actually it isn't like that at all.
"Going to gimp yourself" is a decieving truth. The error you made for your argument is, that Cryptic has taken PREMADE BUILDS and called them CLASSES. A Cleric is just that. A Cleric is not just Leader. A Cleric is either Leader OR Defender, and thanks to player and gear freedom even just as good or better STRIKER/ Controller than Striker prebuilds of other Classes. Because, the 4e still allows a lot of freedom in character builds.
It is right that a Devoted Cleric (given the freedom) is going to "gimp" itself when he starts wearing a sword and shield but that's just the PREBUILD of a Cleric.
What you need to understand is, that players here who ask for more choice, fundamentally ask for a 4e Cleric class (and any other), not the way Cryptic turned Prebuilds into "Classes" and as a result really have no real choice.
For arguments sake, Cryptic didn't try to create the Priest class of WoW, they didn't even took the Shadow Priest. They took a very specific (15/30/45/60/75/90) build of Shadow Priest and made those a Class. While you are right to reason that giving more "weapon" choice is pointless (as you will be gimped) - that's excatly the point of those arguing otherwise.
But one thing remains a fact, "classes" in neverwinter are not anywhere near 4e, they are premade Builds labeled as classes and in doing so fail to be 4e class conform.
You are right. Then I played it. Now I have no issue with it because I have seen it implemented in the game and completely understand where it is coming from, why it was implemented in the way it was and believe they went about it the correct way for their game. So basicly your list of changes you want to see by making suggestions in the beta forums are... "I don't like the class system they need to scrap it all and start over?"
Unfortunately they aren't going to scrap their entire class system. That much is simple and obvious. All of the complaints I see seem to sprout from that very core mechanic of the game. I want more weapon choices, which basicly means "I want more skins" because their gear system is built in such a way to work within the class system they have built. Everything comes from that. While maybe I sound like a fanboy homer, which is fine btw, I am not going to focus my time on unreasonable requests and complaints and instead look at the things that can be changed to make the game better. Like their annoying <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> hey everyone be in the same instance now find a gate and go to the quest... oops someone didn't come through time to drop group, reform find a protector's enclave that isnt full of people we can all meet at group up and then try to hit the dungeon together again. Anyway that is for another thread.
DDO had full 3.X builds during beta. They did not add the "paths" until it went F2P and even then only new players used them.
Not entirely true nor accurate.
The suggested 'paths' in 4e do not limit you the way the class 'templates' in NW do. In 4e you make a choice on your class - then you choose from a rather large list the class abilities you want so as to custom tailor your character. YES for the most part they are all equal, but they do allow for character customization from the very beginning.
At first level you choose 1 daily, 2 encounter and 2 at will abilities/powers. You could have 2 Trickster Rogues or 2 Guardian Fighters who had completely different choices and STILL be called Trickster or Guardian. Every level there after you choose not only powers but feats and skills, etc. Races have powers/abilities you can take vs class ones, etc. The customization is quite large in 4e.
Yes, the CLASSES are set up to fulfill a role (Striker, guardian, leader, etc.) but the 'builds' are how you custom tailor them to your wants/needs.
The fact is: Cryptic already allows for freeform characters in CO, it is a pay to get option if you are F2p. They need to do the same here.
And I do not agree with the OP. I played mainly Guardian Fighter during the beta and by selecting the right powers, traits and items at the end I did more damage than a rogue 2 levels above me. Sure I was limited by the skills of my current class but in the end there were a lot of skills to choose from. The only thing that I found lacking is diversity when it comes to at-will powers. Other than that I found several viable ways to play the character and went for the one that suited me best. I believe this is more important than having 3 different weapons that all use the same skills and animations as in many other MMORPGs or having plenty of skills that do the exact same thing in the end which is also a fault of the MMORPG genre.
If you want PnP D&D then go and play PnP D&D - this is not it. If you cannot stay open to new ideas and you complain about something just because it is different then too bad for you.
Also whoever blames Cryptic for being lazy looks like a spoiled brat in my eyes. All the classes so far are fun to play with unique class mechanic that makes them really different gameplay-wise and have an array of fun skills you can choose from suitable for different situations. It is really sad some people cannot appreciate that.
Actually, it's more "I can't make my Battle Cleric!". But removing the term Devoted from the Cleric class won't fix anything. It will still play as a Devoted Cleric in-game, because there are no Battle Cleric related powers currently (all the melee ones).
The game lack build variety and I believe Cryptic is quite aware of that. They purposely focused on Striker (Trickster Rogue, TWF), Defender (GF), Controller (Control Wizard) and Leader (Devoted Cleric) to be ready for release and support group content. Anything else will have to wait for after launch.
Do you not realize that at any given moment in Neverwinter any Trickster Rogue, Guardian Fighter, Devoted Cleric, Control Wizrd, or Great Weapon Fighter will have different Dailies, Encounters, and At-Will on their toolbar? You can't swap out any of those when they are on cooldown, and the fact that hitting P causes you to lose control of your character, pretty much means you are locked into your choices for most situations. So taking your "4e has a lot of customization" idea, so does this game in the fact that we can all choose what Powers we want on our toolbars at any given time.
Edit: Also, if they just copy-pasted CO's class ideas, what would be the point of even playing this game? Because it has the D&D logo slapped on it? That's just as bad as claiming this game needs more choice without giving any examples of things that could be added to allure that there is choice (when there isn't). Even looking at Freeform in CO, there is a SPECIFIC build for every single thing you want to do, which completely removes the idea you have that everyone has choice and completely envokes the ability for new people to gimp themselves, and then be told "too bad, and you have to give us a 5 spot to change it". That pisses people off. I don't care if you personally didn't have a probably with STO or CO's ability to gimp new players, but the fact remains games that offer the ability for new and old players to have a level playing field are always successful and those that have a complex, "freeform" build path only attract those that min/max on pretty much everything.