Playstyles will be the other classes, which I expect will be purchaseable in the store, to generate their revenue.
Yup. And how much do you think it's gonna charge us for each class? They sold a race for 200$ for a 2 month head start. I suspect ranger will be the first to come out post launch and I suspect it'll come out 3 weeks to a month after launch and will cost 50$-100$ for another 2 month head start before becoming "free" Really annoid.
You're one of those people who think skill trees equal "choice" arn't you? (They don't.)
I dunno I played a Paladin for a long time, and each tree offered Choice.... I had the abilty to main Tank, main heal, or main dps. That is choice.
In rift I could make hundreds of choices in how I played, ranged tank, porting tank, aoe healer while top end dpsing. Those things are choice. Or are you blind? I doubt you have ever played a real class based D&D game. I doubt you have ever played PNP games.
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ocrambosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yup. And how much do you think it's gonna charge us for each class? They sold a race for 200$ for a 2 month head start. I suspect ranger will be the first to come out post launch and I suspect it'll come out 3 weeks to a month after launch and will cost 50$-100$ for another 2 month head start before becoming "free" Really annoid.
It was stated that they aimed for 12 classes in the game (initially) to call it a proper game. They then decided to add the other 7 classes later. I expect the first 7 releases to be free and then the remainder after that purchaseable. Furthermore those items will be about the price they are in champions online. I am not sure how much that is, but I'm thinking 10 euro's, zen style. (So grindable in-game, but takes a while)
There dose seem to be enough choice I think to constitute calling any thing a "build"
we get to choose some feet points. And from what I could tell it did not matter were I put these. it really did not affect anything for me in a meaning full way.
Dose any one else agree that the character progression really doe not exist?
The Classes are specific. Guardian Fighter, Control Wizard, etc,. Your "Build" will basically be which powers you choose to play with accompanied by the passive bonuses from the Talent Trees. Certain builds will be "better" for solo play and other builds will be "better" for Dungeons.
As an example. Trickster Rogue can be "built" for single target damage based on powers chosen and passives (talent tree) that increase those powers chance to crit, damage, etc,. That same rogue can be built and talented to solo more effectively. Again based on powers and passives. The same can be said for all of the classes and their role.
Talents that reduce threat and increase critical chance are staple talents in most MMOs. If you wan't to squeeze the most out of a power you will put your points in those talents that support it. I see it in this game and It doesn't look different than the majority.
I think Character progression does exist...even if it simply adds to your options for combat. There is enough progression to allow you to find a play style as well as enough variety to have different play styles.
I'm not overwhelmed by choices by any means ...but I think there is enough there to allow some min/max'n and enough to play with and mix to find a really nasty combo.
In the end you generally see most people figure out similar builds anyway...why make more complex just to arrive at the same solution.
My 2 Cent
Edit: RE: $ for new classes. I don't think they will charge for new classes. Where they will hit you is character slots. If you have 12 classes and 2 character slots...
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
edited February 2013
They said time and time again that they won't be charging for classes or races so stop speculating about that.
Anyway, for those who say that there is currently no variety in Neverwinter I can say that:
Guardian Fighter currently has 3 possible playstyles - Melee DPS, Tank or Support, the Trickster Rogue has 3 possible playstyles - Melee DPS, Ranged DPS and Crowd Control and the Devoted Cleric has at least two possible playstyles - DPS and Healer(I haven't gotten much into the cleric cause I got pretty sick of playing cleric in other games). Each of these playstyles has various feats to invest into to enhance them and can be mixed in order to adjust to the exact thing you want to do. Your ability scores and paragon path also help you shape up what type of character you want. There is also gear to complement each of the playstyles available and if you do not select proper gear you would end up pretty much being useless in everything just as in other MMOs. Overall Neverwinter is an MMO and it behaves as one - the classes offer as much playstyles available as in most MMOs but you generally get less skills because in most MMOs you use 20 skills and here you use 8 or 9 depending on whether you count the dodge/block as a skill.
As for the guy who claims that there are different playstyles in GW2 - please, you either go tanky or DPS and in some minor cases for some classes you can also go support. On every weapon you have pretty much the same 3 skills over and over again and 2 utility skills for flavor. 1 skill is always basic attack, second is aoe attack and third is either some kind of knockback, root or escape for ranged or rush or ranged root or pull for melee basically making you able to chase or escape.
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notlobnai1974Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited February 2013
Gameplay - yes! Setting - yes! Foundry - yes!
Classes - no! What we do get are what 4e considers the main 'builds' that classes fall into.....'The cleric has two basic builds to start: the battle cleric and the devoted cleric' 4e phb
I think people can understand this may be done for a number of reasons...but with the sheer number of true classes and paragon paths it seems unnecessary. Anyway....no point moaning....it's done.....
I hope the plan is to expand the number of builds then eventually open up the true classes for customisation.
By customisation i mean basic choices such as weapon and armour proficiency to multi-class / power swap feats. Balance issues? Sure....but I'd rather have a creatively satisfied fan base (D&D fans are nothing if not creative) arguing over balance than a disgruntled dwarf holding a 2h sword when all he really wants is to forge his own axe, go beserk and cleave some Orc skulls.
If I was told today I would eventually be able to create a dual hand-axe weilding warrior who can unleash a thunderlance and occasional fireball I'd throw my 60 dollars at you!! I'm nearly there already.... Actually I only need a nudge because of the foundry....
Feats (as represented in-game) seem to have a place in mmo's.
Skills - would be been nice to have a choice or points to assign. Mabey we will unlock more at later levels or more will be added ie. Heal, History.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
Skills - would be been nice to have a choice or points to assign. Mabey we will unlock more at later levels or more will be added ie. Heal, History.
Yeah, why not have all the skills available when you can choose just 5 of them to have permanently and then you have to spend money/astral diamonds to respec and get a different subset of 5 from the other 15...
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walkerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
tbh, what I hope is that these classes feature a very defined roll.... if that makes sense, while I do agree they need to use more than one type of weapon, what I want instead is for cryptic to add new classes in chunks of perhaps 3 or 4 at a time, that give us more and more variation on the likes of fighter, wizard, ranger, rouge, cleric, warlock, warlord etc etc
eg guardian fighter and great weapon fighter are really just two different types of the fighter class but are radically different.... THAT is how I hope the game will give us choice... you might hate being skewed into a roll for good once you click that box at the beginning but really aint that a big part of MMO's? allowing you to flip flop between different styles at will basically means you can fill any roll (within reason, I dont want any barbarian healers) and this alienates alot of the MMO crowed which im gonna be honest is gonna be a majority of your gaming companions.... not D&D players.
They said time and time again that they won't be charging for classes or races so stop speculating about that.
Anyway, for those who say that there is currently no variety in Neverwinter I can say that: Guardian Fighter currently has 3 possible playstyles - Melee DPS, Tank or Support, the Trickster Rogue has 3 possible playstyles - Melee DPS, Ranged DPS and Crowd Control and the Devoted Cleric has at least two possible playstyles - DPS and Healer(I haven't gotten much into the cleric cause I got pretty sick of playing cleric in other games). Each of these playstyles has various feats to invest into to enhance them and can be mixed in order to adjust to the exact thing you want to do. Your ability scores and paragon path also help you shape up what type of character you want. There is also gear to complement each of the playstyles available and if you do not select proper gear you would end up pretty much being useless in everything just as in other MMOs. Overall Neverwinter is an MMO and it behaves as one - the classes offer as much playstyles available as in most MMOs but you generally get less skills because in most MMOs you use 20 skills and here you use 8 or 9 depending on whether you count the dodge/block as a skill.
As for the guy who claims that there are different playstyles in GW2 - please, you either go tanky or DPS and in some minor cases for some classes you can also go support. On every weapon you have pretty much the same 3 skills over and over again and 2 utility skills for flavor. 1 skill is always basic attack, second is aoe attack and third is either some kind of knockback, root or escape for ranged or rush or ranged root or pull for melee basically making you able to chase or escape.
Saying a guardian and cleric can go dps, and rogue can go CC is a joke. Guarding and Cleric will NEVER do as much dps as a rogue or GWF, and rogue won't be able to CC as well as control wizard (or atleast shouldn't be able to). Anyone rolling a guardian is going to tank or roll a GWF for dps. Anyone rolling a cleric is going to heal. That's about as many options as we get. And what do the rogues get for ranged dps? I thought they only got a few skills at medium range, long ranged classes weren't in yet?
Edit: As for each new class being a different type of build, it's going to take them forever to add new classes if each class has to be accompanied by 3 versions of itself. Anyone waiting for a class from phb2 or 3 isn't going to be happy quickly.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
Saying a guardian and cleric can go dps, and rogue can go CC is a joke. Guarding and Cleric will NEVER do as much dps as a rogue or GWF, and rogue won't be able to CC as well as control wizard (or atleast shouldn't be able to). Anyone rolling a guardian is going to tank or roll a GWF for dps. Anyone rolling a cleric is going to heal. That's about as many options as we get. And what do the rogues get for ranged dps? I thought they only got a few skills at medium range, long ranged classes weren't in yet?
Edit: As for each new class being a different type of build, it's going to take them forever to add new classes if each class has to be accompanied by 3 versions of itself. Anyone waiting for a class from phb2 or 3 isn't going to be happy quickly.
Oh, it is a joke now... then how come I outDPSed all the rogues in my parties when I ran the lvl 25 dungeon with my guardian fighter? How come I am destroying a group of enemies in 5 seconds where a rogue takes 10? Not willing to experiment and embrace the variety that the game offers is what makes you not to have a choice and not actually not having choices when you develop your character.
Oh, it is a joke now... then how come I outDPSed all the rogues in my parties when I ran the lvl 25 dungeon with my guardian fighter? How come I am destroying a group of enemies in 5 seconds where a rogue takes 10? Not willing to experiment and embrace the variety that the game offers is what makes you not to have a choice and not actually not having choices when you develop your character.
They didn't know how to play their rogues? Class balance issues?
I kind of see how the game is forcing "roles" on us. 4E was kind of about forcing the "holy trinity" on peeps, at least loosely, with the roles ( leader, defender, striker, controller) they pushed classes in but it seems Cryptic is taking this a step further by "forcing" us into suggested builds.
They didn't know how to play their rogues? Class balance issues?
So it is not a conscious choice to do the classes that way but a bug and player incompetence? You guys are really make a lot of sense, don't you?
Let me say this clear - you complain that there is no variety, I point out that there is variety and that you can actually play your character a lot of different ways within one class and you respond with "this should be fixed".
One more time - complains about not having variety, proof that there is variety, complains that the variety that is there should not be there...
Wow!
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seashell9Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 25Arc User
edited February 2013
No you are just labeling player competence and situational combat happenings as "variety of classes" implying /and claiming it's equal to "Builds" of other MMOs.
Following your fallacy argument Guardians have even 3 more roles and builds!
1. The Bait - unequip your armor and run naked into a group.
2. The Slow Tank - disable run and shuffle to your targets!
3. The mighty OVERTANK! - Only enter dungeons with 5 Levels above and full decked out in blues!
SEE! All those variety you can have with a GF!! Oh look a devoted cleric can pull 20 enemies and nuke them to death, you can TANK with a DC, DC's are TANKS, you can play your DC as TANK!!!!!
Adding two burst damage abilities with high cooldown to chew through trash groups is hardly a measurement for a viable DD role. Seriously, no one claimed you can't deal Damage with a GF, and that was never the context of "no real choice" either.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
Adding two burst damage abilities with high cooldown to chew through trash groups is hardly a measurement for a viable DD role. Seriously, no one claimed you can't deal Damage with a GF, and that was never the context of "no real choice" either.
So what is your definition of a viable role for a character if not a role you can play adequately with the means provided by the character class?
And what is the meaning of "no real choice" according to you? Is it "I do not have choices when it comes to how I play my character" or is it "I cannot use the same skill with different looking weapon"?
I dunno I played a Paladin for a long time, and each tree offered Choice.... I had the abilty to main Tank, main heal, or main dps. That is choice.
In rift I could make hundreds of choices in how I played, ranged tank, porting tank, aoe healer while top end dpsing. Those things are choice. Or are you blind? I doubt you have ever played a real class based D&D game. I doubt you have ever played PNP games.
Looks like someone doesn't know about prestige classes yet.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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ithanelMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited February 2013
While i agree with the lack of diversity ingame, especially the lack of different weapons (which can be added without a problem), and the lack of options in character costumization, i can't agree with the lack of anything coming from the dnd4 ruleset. I played dnd3, 3.5 and 4.0 for quite a long time (each), and yes there are roles such as striker or controler... but as mentioned this is
a) not a trinity, as far as i remember there were 5 roles, and
b)the roles didn't define or stop a class from sticking to that role.
I played a sneaky rogue that was controlling whole fights, stunning, dazing, pushing, swaping places, slowing, weakening, even though "you are supposed to be striker". Even if this game is taking their rules from dnd4, there is no reason for all the restrictions in the character build as they are at the moment.
I also want to point out that the skills (such as dungeoneering and religion) have to be optional, maybe not every skill for every class, but it's a fundamental thing that wouldn't even be hard to implement or balance, because there is no need to balance something like "i can pick a lock, you can't" when this already is in the game.
For the "roll your stats" thing discussed (at least a bit) here, i think there should be 2 options(do rolls as long as you want, but if you roll, it REALLY is random, or dont roll and get preset stats), or no rolling at all.
And to all of those yelling "don't you dare say this game could be changed anymore" ... well, yes, there are restrictions for the devs, they can't change the whole system. But if you don't tell them what's clearly wrong for some people, then why bother doing a beta anyway? And be aware of not all people being professional programmers, not everyone can see how much the dev's can change by now, but most of the people here (either RPer, or MMOler, or even casual gamers that like playing many different games) can judge if something in the game is bad for the game's long life.
I was reading through my 4.0 Phb. And I still think the choices are limited... for now. If they manage to incorporate every class, and even half the paragon paths, they'd have far more classes than any other MMO I've played. Potentially they could go from, not enough choice, to the most choice ever in an mmo. It all depends how fast/how many classes get release.
While I didn't expect a Computer Game let alone a MMO would have flexibility of PnP game, when it comes to make your own character Neverwinter feels like falling short. It feels like 4e at first glance (I learned about it more in this forums so don't think it is that limited now). You start with a path which advice you to get X and Y stats and you get powers benefits most from those.
If I can speak about MMOs, Neverwinter is what CoH was or DCUO is to Champions Online. One gives you very streamlined path, no matter what you do you are end up Fire Blaster #987.542.647 while CO with freefroms let you build your own hero. You don't even need to stick with roles if that doesn't fit your character concept. That doesn't mean other games ain't fun, they are or were in CoH case.
For me now I have two DnD games one with my characters one with great flavor which I will continue to enjoy. Also we didn't see complete game yet, so with multiclassing or hybrid classes introduced game can take a very different course in years to come.
So it is not a conscious choice to do the classes that way but a bug and player incompetence? You guys are really make a lot of sense, don't you?
Let me say this clear - you complain that there is no variety, I point out that there is variety and that you can actually play your character a lot of different ways within one class and you respond with "this should be fixed".
One more time - complains about not having variety, proof that there is variety, complains that the variety that is there should not be there...
Wow!
More than you do at times with silly claims that we said so and so when we didn't. You say there is variety and I say the variety we have is a farce and no where near what we should have, that is the whole reason they are forcing suggested paths on us, if you can't see that you are blind.
Get off the fanboy bandwagon and stop trolling. Your posts that are like this quote are so stupid it is simply mind boggling and further proof there is no point in having any kind of discussion with you.
Choice is something that some wierd person made up. Too many choices is a debuff to any game with the greatest example of the best RPG ever - Baldurs Gate 2
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
More than you do at times with silly claims that we said so and so when we didn't. You say there is variety and I say the variety we have is a farce and no where near what we should have, that is the whole reason they are forcing suggested paths on us, if you can't see that you are blind.
Get off the fanboy bandwagon and stop trolling. Your posts that are like this quote are so stupid it is simply mind boggling and further proof there is no point in having any kind of discussion with you.
I'm not the one spouting contradictory nonsense left and right.
Naw you just invent <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to try and win a point.
"Inventing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" is called "providing an argument" to support your point in a debate. You should try it sometime. But you should also remember that when you "invent <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" you should be able to defend it with evidence, facts and logic. I can assure you I can do that with all the "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" I "invented".
"Inventing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" is called "providing an argument" to support your point in a debate. You should try it sometime. But you should also remember that when you "invent <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" you should be able to defend it with evidence, facts and logic. I can assure you I can do that with all the "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" I "invented".
No I meant inventing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and then putting it in other peoples mouths, you have been doing this over and over and then claim you use logic, facts and evidence.
You sir are full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> even if you do have some good points now and then. Also repeating the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over and over and over and over to everyone that posts and is not in agreement with you isn't using logic or facts or evidence.
I see you in threads quoting different people and saying the same thing, sometimes with different words, and you seem to think this a great way to get your point across.
Do you not think when you said something several times in the same thread you should then maybe stfu? Do you not think we are all aware of what you think by now? Do you think people are stupid and can't read and haven't seen your opinions over and over and over on this same subject already.
I mean it's great to have an opinion and it's great to get ideas across but what you do is far far beyond that, it borders on harassing peeps that post and are not of your opinion.
Do you really want me to dig up various threads where you are doing just this as "evidence"?
Really though if peeps want evidence all they need to do is click on your forum name and then click on "View Forum Posts" and look through them.
No I meant inventing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and then putting it in other peoples mouths, you have been doing this over and over and then claim you use logic, facts and evidence.
I never put anything into anybody's mouth(except in the literal sense but we both know this is not what you mean) like you are doing right now. If you care to look you will see that if I'm referring to somebody else words I am either summing up a large amount of posts under a general banner or explaining what the logic behind their posts would lead to. I believe that I had once mistaken one user for another(might have been you) and I eventually acknowledged that and apologized about it.
You sir are full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> even if you do have some good points now and then. Also repeating the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over and over and over and over to everyone that posts and is not in agreement with you isn't using logic or facts or evidence.
I see you in threads quoting different people and saying the same thing, sometimes with different words, and you seem to think this a great way to get your point across.
Do you not think when you said something several times in the same thread you should then maybe stfu? Do you not think we are all aware of what you think by now? Do you think people are stupid and can't read and haven't seen your opinions over and over and over on this same subject already.
I mean it's great to have an opinion and it's great to get ideas across but what you do is far far beyond that, it borders on harassing peeps that post and are not of your opinion.
Do you really want me to dig up various threads where you are doing just this as "evidence"?
Really though if peeps want evidence all they need to do is click on your forum name and then click on "View Forum Posts" and look through them.
The reasons I am doing this is because the same issue and the same points are raised over and over again in various different threads. I challenge these points to defend my outlook on the issues provided. It is true that everybody is entitled to their opinion. What is also true is that if you cannot defend your opinion it is worthless.
Have you heard of the expression "truth is born in argument"? Well, it is that kind of argument that I am seeking - the one where two parties can discuss the opposing sides of a problem and reach a conclusion that would satisfy both of them. It is really a shame that so many people get offended when you say something that contradicts their views.
P.S. I almost forgot:
firesnakearies, thank you! Still I believe that there are a lot of other people worth watching out for
The reasons I am doing this is because the same issue and the same points are raised over and over again in various different threads. I challenge these points to defend my outlook on the issues provided. It is true that everybody is entitled to their opinion. What is also true is that if you cannot defend your opinion it is worthless.
Have you heard of the expression "truth is born in argument"? Well, it is that kind of argument that I am seeking - the one where two parties can discuss the opposing sides of a problem and reach a conclusion that would satisfy both of them. It is really a shame that so many people get offended when you say something that contradicts their views.
*Snip*
Bull, what you are doing is trying to bury the opposition in a large mount of posts saying the same thing. You are not defending anything by repeating the same thing over and over, you are not using any new logic or real facts. You are just stating your opinion to the point no one wants to discuss these things anymore.
People are entitled to come to these forum post their opinions and be left alone and leave it at that. You do not need to try and refute every post that doesn't agree with you.
Do you see me quoting everyone that is agreeing or leaning towards your opinion? No you don't and it is not because I cannot defend my position, it is because I have some class.
At some point repeating the same stuff you have said and made clear numerous times before to someone that just wanted to add his 2cents in a thread is pointless and hurts your position and makes you into a troll plain and simple.
What you are doing isn't "discussing something with someone else to reach a beneficial conclusion to a problem".
What you are doing is more akin to the guy that stands at the door before a workers strike meeting trying to hassle everyone into voting like himself instead of sitting down at the table and waiting your turn to state your opinion and then politely sitting back down so others can have their turn.
People are entitled to come to these forum post their opinions and be left alone and leave it at that.
No.
No one is "entitled" to come to these forums and post anything, except perhaps Cryptic or Perfect World employees.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
edited March 2013
pilf3r, if I was trying to outspam the people who do not agree with me I would not provide arguments and ideas and I would not ask questions. I would just go around calling "bull" and "hogwash" on every opinion I do not agree with like you do. I am done with you. I will not respond to any more to your insinuations because I think people are sick of this pointless bickering. You've shown time and time again that you do not listen to reason and you are not willing or not able to cooperate and discuss matters in a civil matter.
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notlobnai1974Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited March 2013
BUN FIGHT! Stay on topic pls
It's meant to b fun discussing these points...and hopefully the dev's will take notice of all your points........I'd like to see a few polls on: gameplay, classes(builds), feats, weapon choices, customisation..etc....something nice and bold and capturing numerous opinions.......that may grab the dev's attention
Class builds...I can't count the number of new chars I've rolled in pnp and comp games, or tweaked with rebuilds etc.....in general....people love choice....currently our customisation choices are limited....hopefully we will get more info soon
Comments
Yup. And how much do you think it's gonna charge us for each class? They sold a race for 200$ for a 2 month head start. I suspect ranger will be the first to come out post launch and I suspect it'll come out 3 weeks to a month after launch and will cost 50$-100$ for another 2 month head start before becoming "free" Really annoid.
I dunno I played a Paladin for a long time, and each tree offered Choice.... I had the abilty to main Tank, main heal, or main dps. That is choice.
In rift I could make hundreds of choices in how I played, ranged tank, porting tank, aoe healer while top end dpsing. Those things are choice. Or are you blind? I doubt you have ever played a real class based D&D game. I doubt you have ever played PNP games.
It was stated that they aimed for 12 classes in the game (initially) to call it a proper game. They then decided to add the other 7 classes later. I expect the first 7 releases to be free and then the remainder after that purchaseable. Furthermore those items will be about the price they are in champions online. I am not sure how much that is, but I'm thinking 10 euro's, zen style. (So grindable in-game, but takes a while)
The Classes are specific. Guardian Fighter, Control Wizard, etc,. Your "Build" will basically be which powers you choose to play with accompanied by the passive bonuses from the Talent Trees. Certain builds will be "better" for solo play and other builds will be "better" for Dungeons.
As an example. Trickster Rogue can be "built" for single target damage based on powers chosen and passives (talent tree) that increase those powers chance to crit, damage, etc,. That same rogue can be built and talented to solo more effectively. Again based on powers and passives. The same can be said for all of the classes and their role.
Talents that reduce threat and increase critical chance are staple talents in most MMOs. If you wan't to squeeze the most out of a power you will put your points in those talents that support it. I see it in this game and It doesn't look different than the majority.
I think Character progression does exist...even if it simply adds to your options for combat. There is enough progression to allow you to find a play style as well as enough variety to have different play styles.
I'm not overwhelmed by choices by any means
In the end you generally see most people figure out similar builds anyway...why make more complex just to arrive at the same solution.
My 2 Cent
Edit: RE: $ for new classes. I don't think they will charge for new classes. Where they will hit you is character slots. If you have 12 classes and 2 character slots...
Anyway, for those who say that there is currently no variety in Neverwinter I can say that:
Guardian Fighter currently has 3 possible playstyles - Melee DPS, Tank or Support, the Trickster Rogue has 3 possible playstyles - Melee DPS, Ranged DPS and Crowd Control and the Devoted Cleric has at least two possible playstyles - DPS and Healer(I haven't gotten much into the cleric cause I got pretty sick of playing cleric in other games). Each of these playstyles has various feats to invest into to enhance them and can be mixed in order to adjust to the exact thing you want to do. Your ability scores and paragon path also help you shape up what type of character you want. There is also gear to complement each of the playstyles available and if you do not select proper gear you would end up pretty much being useless in everything just as in other MMOs. Overall Neverwinter is an MMO and it behaves as one - the classes offer as much playstyles available as in most MMOs but you generally get less skills because in most MMOs you use 20 skills and here you use 8 or 9 depending on whether you count the dodge/block as a skill.
As for the guy who claims that there are different playstyles in GW2 - please, you either go tanky or DPS and in some minor cases for some classes you can also go support. On every weapon you have pretty much the same 3 skills over and over again and 2 utility skills for flavor. 1 skill is always basic attack, second is aoe attack and third is either some kind of knockback, root or escape for ranged or rush or ranged root or pull for melee basically making you able to chase or escape.
Classes - no! What we do get are what 4e considers the main 'builds' that classes fall into.....'The cleric has two basic builds to start: the battle cleric and the devoted cleric' 4e phb
I think people can understand this may be done for a number of reasons...but with the sheer number of true classes and paragon paths it seems unnecessary. Anyway....no point moaning....it's done.....
I hope the plan is to expand the number of builds then eventually open up the true classes for customisation.
By customisation i mean basic choices such as weapon and armour proficiency to multi-class / power swap feats. Balance issues? Sure....but I'd rather have a creatively satisfied fan base (D&D fans are nothing if not creative) arguing over balance than a disgruntled dwarf holding a 2h sword when all he really wants is to forge his own axe, go beserk and cleave some Orc skulls.
If I was told today I would eventually be able to create a dual hand-axe weilding warrior who can unleash a thunderlance and occasional fireball I'd throw my 60 dollars at you!! I'm nearly there already.... Actually I only need a nudge because of the foundry....
Feats (as represented in-game) seem to have a place in mmo's.
Skills - would be been nice to have a choice or points to assign. Mabey we will unlock more at later levels or more will be added ie. Heal, History.
Yeah, why not have all the skills available when you can choose just 5 of them to have permanently and then you have to spend money/astral diamonds to respec and get a different subset of 5 from the other 15...
eg guardian fighter and great weapon fighter are really just two different types of the fighter class but are radically different.... THAT is how I hope the game will give us choice... you might hate being skewed into a roll for good once you click that box at the beginning but really aint that a big part of MMO's? allowing you to flip flop between different styles at will basically means you can fill any roll (within reason, I dont want any barbarian healers) and this alienates alot of the MMO crowed which im gonna be honest is gonna be a majority of your gaming companions.... not D&D players.
Saying a guardian and cleric can go dps, and rogue can go CC is a joke. Guarding and Cleric will NEVER do as much dps as a rogue or GWF, and rogue won't be able to CC as well as control wizard (or atleast shouldn't be able to). Anyone rolling a guardian is going to tank or roll a GWF for dps. Anyone rolling a cleric is going to heal. That's about as many options as we get. And what do the rogues get for ranged dps? I thought they only got a few skills at medium range, long ranged classes weren't in yet?
Edit: As for each new class being a different type of build, it's going to take them forever to add new classes if each class has to be accompanied by 3 versions of itself. Anyone waiting for a class from phb2 or 3 isn't going to be happy quickly.
Oh, it is a joke now... then how come I outDPSed all the rogues in my parties when I ran the lvl 25 dungeon with my guardian fighter? How come I am destroying a group of enemies in 5 seconds where a rogue takes 10? Not willing to experiment and embrace the variety that the game offers is what makes you not to have a choice and not actually not having choices when you develop your character.
They didn't know how to play their rogues? Class balance issues?
I kind of see how the game is forcing "roles" on us. 4E was kind of about forcing the "holy trinity" on peeps, at least loosely, with the roles ( leader, defender, striker, controller) they pushed classes in but it seems Cryptic is taking this a step further by "forcing" us into suggested builds.
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Let me say this clear - you complain that there is no variety, I point out that there is variety and that you can actually play your character a lot of different ways within one class and you respond with "this should be fixed".
One more time - complains about not having variety, proof that there is variety, complains that the variety that is there should not be there...
Wow!
Following your fallacy argument Guardians have even 3 more roles and builds!
1. The Bait - unequip your armor and run naked into a group.
2. The Slow Tank - disable run and shuffle to your targets!
3. The mighty OVERTANK! - Only enter dungeons with 5 Levels above and full decked out in blues!
SEE! All those variety you can have with a GF!! Oh look a devoted cleric can pull 20 enemies and nuke them to death, you can TANK with a DC, DC's are TANKS, you can play your DC as TANK!!!!!
Adding two burst damage abilities with high cooldown to chew through trash groups is hardly a measurement for a viable DD role. Seriously, no one claimed you can't deal Damage with a GF, and that was never the context of "no real choice" either.
So what is your definition of a viable role for a character if not a role you can play adequately with the means provided by the character class?
And what is the meaning of "no real choice" according to you? Is it "I do not have choices when it comes to how I play my character" or is it "I cannot use the same skill with different looking weapon"?
a) not a trinity, as far as i remember there were 5 roles, and
b)the roles didn't define or stop a class from sticking to that role.
I played a sneaky rogue that was controlling whole fights, stunning, dazing, pushing, swaping places, slowing, weakening, even though "you are supposed to be striker". Even if this game is taking their rules from dnd4, there is no reason for all the restrictions in the character build as they are at the moment.
I also want to point out that the skills (such as dungeoneering and religion) have to be optional, maybe not every skill for every class, but it's a fundamental thing that wouldn't even be hard to implement or balance, because there is no need to balance something like "i can pick a lock, you can't" when this already is in the game.
For the "roll your stats" thing discussed (at least a bit) here, i think there should be 2 options(do rolls as long as you want, but if you roll, it REALLY is random, or dont roll and get preset stats), or no rolling at all.
And to all of those yelling "don't you dare say this game could be changed anymore" ... well, yes, there are restrictions for the devs, they can't change the whole system. But if you don't tell them what's clearly wrong for some people, then why bother doing a beta anyway? And be aware of not all people being professional programmers, not everyone can see how much the dev's can change by now, but most of the people here (either RPer, or MMOler, or even casual gamers that like playing many different games) can judge if something in the game is bad for the game's long life.
If I can speak about MMOs, Neverwinter is what CoH was or DCUO is to Champions Online. One gives you very streamlined path, no matter what you do you are end up Fire Blaster #987.542.647 while CO with freefroms let you build your own hero. You don't even need to stick with roles if that doesn't fit your character concept. That doesn't mean other games ain't fun, they are or were in CoH case.
For me now I have two DnD games one with my characters one with great flavor which I will continue to enjoy. Also we didn't see complete game yet, so with multiclassing or hybrid classes introduced game can take a very different course in years to come.
More than you do at times with silly claims that we said so and so when we didn't. You say there is variety and I say the variety we have is a farce and no where near what we should have, that is the whole reason they are forcing suggested paths on us, if you can't see that you are blind.
Get off the fanboy bandwagon and stop trolling. Your posts that are like this quote are so stupid it is simply mind boggling and further proof there is no point in having any kind of discussion with you.
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I'm not the one spouting contradictory nonsense left and right.
Naw you just invent <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to try and win a point.
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"Inventing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" is called "providing an argument" to support your point in a debate. You should try it sometime. But you should also remember that when you "invent <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" you should be able to defend it with evidence, facts and logic. I can assure you I can do that with all the "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" I "invented".
No I meant inventing <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and then putting it in other peoples mouths, you have been doing this over and over and then claim you use logic, facts and evidence.
You sir are full of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> even if you do have some good points now and then. Also repeating the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over and over and over and over to everyone that posts and is not in agreement with you isn't using logic or facts or evidence.
I see you in threads quoting different people and saying the same thing, sometimes with different words, and you seem to think this a great way to get your point across.
Do you not think when you said something several times in the same thread you should then maybe stfu? Do you not think we are all aware of what you think by now? Do you think people are stupid and can't read and haven't seen your opinions over and over and over on this same subject already.
I mean it's great to have an opinion and it's great to get ideas across but what you do is far far beyond that, it borders on harassing peeps that post and are not of your opinion.
Do you really want me to dig up various threads where you are doing just this as "evidence"?
Really though if peeps want evidence all they need to do is click on your forum name and then click on "View Forum Posts" and look through them.
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I never put anything into anybody's mouth(except in the literal sense but we both know this is not what you mean) like you are doing right now. If you care to look you will see that if I'm referring to somebody else words I am either summing up a large amount of posts under a general banner or explaining what the logic behind their posts would lead to. I believe that I had once mistaken one user for another(might have been you) and I eventually acknowledged that and apologized about it.
The reasons I am doing this is because the same issue and the same points are raised over and over again in various different threads. I challenge these points to defend my outlook on the issues provided. It is true that everybody is entitled to their opinion. What is also true is that if you cannot defend your opinion it is worthless.
Have you heard of the expression "truth is born in argument"? Well, it is that kind of argument that I am seeking - the one where two parties can discuss the opposing sides of a problem and reach a conclusion that would satisfy both of them. It is really a shame that so many people get offended when you say something that contradicts their views.
P.S. I almost forgot:
firesnakearies, thank you! Still I believe that there are a lot of other people worth watching out for
Bull, what you are doing is trying to bury the opposition in a large mount of posts saying the same thing. You are not defending anything by repeating the same thing over and over, you are not using any new logic or real facts. You are just stating your opinion to the point no one wants to discuss these things anymore.
People are entitled to come to these forum post their opinions and be left alone and leave it at that. You do not need to try and refute every post that doesn't agree with you.
Do you see me quoting everyone that is agreeing or leaning towards your opinion? No you don't and it is not because I cannot defend my position, it is because I have some class.
At some point repeating the same stuff you have said and made clear numerous times before to someone that just wanted to add his 2cents in a thread is pointless and hurts your position and makes you into a troll plain and simple.
What you are doing isn't "discussing something with someone else to reach a beneficial conclusion to a problem".
What you are doing is more akin to the guy that stands at the door before a workers strike meeting trying to hassle everyone into voting like himself instead of sitting down at the table and waiting your turn to state your opinion and then politely sitting back down so others can have their turn.
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No.
No one is "entitled" to come to these forums and post anything, except perhaps Cryptic or Perfect World employees.
It's meant to b fun discussing these points...and hopefully the dev's will take notice of all your points........I'd like to see a few polls on: gameplay, classes(builds), feats, weapon choices, customisation..etc....something nice and bold and capturing numerous opinions.......that may grab the dev's attention
Class builds...I can't count the number of new chars I've rolled in pnp and comp games, or tweaked with rebuilds etc.....in general....people love choice....currently our customisation choices are limited....hopefully we will get more info soon