Well, the most used argument in this thread is "It is not like in the PnP game!!!" which is kinda sad.
And I do not agree with the OP. I played mainly Guardian Fighter during the beta and by selecting the right powers, traits and items at the end I did more damage than a rogue 2 levels above me. Sure I was limited by the skills of my current class but in the end there were a lot of skills to choose from. The only thing that I found lacking is diversity when it comes to at-will powers. Other than that I found several viable ways to play the character and went for the one that suited me best. I believe this is more important than having 3 different weapons that all use the same skills and animations as in many other MMORPGs or having plenty of skills that do the exact same thing in the end which is also a fault of the MMORPG genre.
If you want PnP D&D then go and play PnP D&D - this is not it. If you cannot stay open to new ideas and you complain about something just because it is different then too bad for you.
Also whoever blames Cryptic for being lazy looks like a spoiled brat in my eyes. All the classes so far are fun to play with unique class mechanic that makes them really different gameplay-wise and have an array of fun skills you can choose from suitable for different situations. It is really sad some people cannot appreciate that.
I know I, for one, don't use that argument at all. One of the key points of DnD is being able to make your character individual and unique. And not because he has a mohawk.
You are basically granted 5 at-will powers. Why not allow you to select which of those five you start with at level 1? At level 2? Level 10?
Funny thing, power selection is a pretty basic premise in MMOs, if you skip WOW (WOW was via some talent trees, which gave you more spells). And it's not like they would have to create new options. By level 30, you might have the same 5 at-wills available to slot in your bars. So it's really the illusion of choice that people crave, not even actual choice. Because DDO doesn't offer that many more options.
CO is a good example of this. Freeform! People cry. But honestly, the only thing differing isn't damage, or what the ability does. It's appearance. Fire, electricity, many of these "powersets" are actually identical in function and damage with some variations for a PBAoE, or whatever. But basically, you have 10 different "power builders" split between 5 melee, 5 ranged. Then you get your single target DPS power, again, all fluff animation difference, no real effect difference.
This can be done, with assets that already exist in the game.
So it's really the illusion of choice that people crave, not even actual choice.
This is exactly what I've been saying this entire thread. No one in here understands that in the end there isn't a choice. Someone on each Class forum is going to post "this is the best build for X" and the majority of the community is going to copy that build. Or maybe the Class Officer in a Guild tells his other classmates to try out X and Y, and they all do. The same is true for every MMO that has, does, or will exist.
The other people in the thread need to stop crying for choice just to have choice and understand that in the end, choice doesn't exist.
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
This is exactly what I've been saying this entire thread. No one in here understands that in the end there isn't a choice. Someone on each Class forum is going to post "this is the best build for X" and the majority of the community is going to copy that build. Or maybe the Class Officer in a Guild tells his other classmates to try out X and Y, and they all do. The same is true for every MMO that has, does, or will exist.
The other people in the thread need to stop crying for choice just to have choice and understand that in the end, choice doesn't exist.
Honestly, hibb, you're right. But people want that illusion. And it's not hard to add.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
Honestly, hibb, you're right. But people want that illusion. And it's not hard to add.
So basically you are complaining that there are not enough animations for the exact same thing... Great. And here I thought that in a game the most important thing is the gameplay. Gameplaywise the powers are diverse enough to justify separating them in separate classes. The separation is also not bad - it is on per-weapon basis. I, for once, don't want to see a bunch of things I cannot use with my current selected weapon. Really, are you going to use shield bash on your GWF or on your Tempest Fighter?
morhilane, and you are complaining because a class is not added yet... well, cannot argue with that, can I? Still your grief does not seem to be with the system itself but with the lack of a particular option you would like to see.
Please before pleading for free-form system consider what you are really asking about and if it is important. If you are asking for something as meaningless as different animations - then don't do it. Useless stuff usually take the most time to do. Animations and synching them with the actual logic behind the game would probably cost you a really cool feature in the long run.
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
So basically you are complaining that there are not enough animations for the exact same thing...
Not at all, Elve. Re-read my post. That was an example of choice, I do not want anything close to CO for this game.
However, there should be options. Choose power A or Power B for (say) devout cleric - not a rogue ability ported over. And apparently, per the NOCS podcast, the developers agree on that point.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
edited February 2013
The thing is that there currently are choices. A lot of them. It is not in the order in which you acquire the abilities but in what combination of abilities you choose to use and what passives you pick in order to support them. The thing that most of the people want will not give you more choice when it comes to playstyle - it will just slow the development of future content that would offer you even more different playstyles and choices.
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schirmerkMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited February 2013
I don't think they should spend one second of dev time on making choice illusions. They should spend that time working on the other pre-built classes so your level of choice can actually get better. Why re-work the cleric instead of spending that time on adding in the battle cleric? Why worry about making a TWF a fighter path when you can add a ranger.
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ganiriesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I don't think they should spend one second of dev time on making choice illusions. They should spend that time working on the other pre-built classes so your level of choice can actually get better.
Yeah I was talking about this very issue with another beta friend. If they had say, 26 pre-made characters to play instead of the five we've told been will be available at launch, would people be a little less upset over customization/class progression? Probably, but It would seem it should be one way or the other. Fully customizable or so many classes to choose from you feel like you're getting a real choice.
I remember playing DDO after (and then simultaneously) with EQ2 and having such fewer classes to choose from in DDO. Later realizing the massive customization, not just the feats and skills, but multi-classing, easy made it more interesting. (Note: this was before the skill tree was fully introduced in EQ2.)
I understand the trinity of basic rpg classes, but the experience of grouping with very similar classes (builds, characters, whatever you wish to call it) over and over could get tiresome, for me at least.
The main problem, just in my opinion, is that the class/feat system doesn't really feel as customizable, not just for DnD as people are mostly debating, but from some other MMOs I've played. Can I create an assassin class who later becomes master with a bow instead of daggers? Yes please. Can I make an evil-healy type shaman later become a terror in melee combat? Yes, I love it.
Not that I expect that exactly from Neverwinter, but a little more than has been presented isn't too much to ask for I believe. For people saying that it's early and they're still working on stuff, I'd have to somewhat disagree. The game seemed pretty polished to me and it felt as if the developers were fairly confident in the direction they want to go.
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
I don't think they should spend one second of dev time on making choice illusions. They should spend that time working on the other pre-built classes so your level of choice can actually get better. Why re-work the cleric instead of spending that time on adding in the battle cleric? Why worry about making a TWF a fighter path when you can add a ranger.
Because, my friend, it's a short step to fleshing out the skills available at each level so that you CAN be a longsword-wielding cleric or specialize in a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> sword after that. It's not even a re-work.
It's adding into the UI the ability to chose between existing skills at level 1,2, 7, 15, and 20.
Step 2: Add more at-will powers, so that you won't get all ten by level 30, and have to make decisions. That step 2 will never be reached if the option at level isn't present to select, well, anything.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
Because, my friend, it's a short step to fleshing out the skills available at each level so that you CAN be a longsword-wielding cleric or specialize in a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> sword after that. It's not even a re-work.
It's adding into the UI the ability to chose between existing skills at level 1,2, 7, 15, and 20.
Step 2: Add more at-will powers, so that you won't get all ten by level 30, and have to make decisions. That step 2 will never be reached if the option at level isn't present to select, well, anything.
So what is the difference, gameplaywise, if you play cleric with a longsword or cleric with a mace if you can use the same skills with each weapon? This is a choice illusion and not a real choice. Changing the system completely will require time and money. I would rather have more choices in the current system than having a system that only gives you illusion of choice.
So what is the difference, gameplaywise, if you play cleric with a longsword or cleric with a mace if you can use the same skills with each weapon? This is a choice illusion and not a real choice. Changing the system completely will require time and money. I would rather have more choices in the current system than having a system that only gives you illusion of choice.
The difference is a longsword and a mace are different weapons etc. Look the whole illusion argument is not a good one at all. You do realize this whole game is an illusion, why have different classes etc, hell why even play the game at all everything is just an illusion. Its all just numbers in a code.
The "illusion" is fun and makes things interesting. Bleh I could say why bother, life is just an illusion and then you die....
kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
This is just like any other beta forums. Some people just want the game to be released as fast as possible regardless. If you have any opinions that would delay the release of the game its just unacceptable to them. It was worst with SWTOR...Any criticism of a game feature would bring a bunch of people telling you to go away and play another game. Now those same people are complaining that everyone left to play other games...
This is just like any other beta forums. Some people just want the game to be released as fast as possible regardless. If you have any opinions that would delay the release of the game its just unacceptable to them. It was worst with SWTOR...Any criticism of a game feature would bring a bunch of people telling you to go away and play another game. Now those same people are complaining that everyone left to play other games...
The best part of swToR Beta was- People saying that it was Beta and that the Things we were discussing Would Never actually go Live. They Did.
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schirmerkMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 24Arc User
Because, my friend, it's a short step to fleshing out the skills available at each level so that you CAN be a longsword-wielding cleric or specialize in a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> sword after that. It's not even a re-work.
It's adding into the UI the ability to chose between existing skills at level 1,2, 7, 15, and 20.
Step 2: Add more at-will powers, so that you won't get all ten by level 30, and have to make decisions. That step 2 will never be reached if the option at level isn't present to select, well, anything.
I went to barnes and noble and read through the 4th ed players handbook. They are following it pretty close. The entire 4th ed is about streamling which inevitably limits choice in character skills. Instead of Pick pockets, pick locks, and disarm trap, they consonlodated them all into thievery. Instead of spot, search, alertness, they have perception.
It's perfect for an action based game. I agree that it is missing the deep character development but I disagree about the importance of a deep character progression in an MMO. They don't even call them MMORPG's anymore. DDO has 3.5 rule and all the feats and enchanments if you want deep character development with tons of choice, is F2P, and it still has a small playerbase.
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vorsthescytheMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited February 2013
The lack of customization is kind of a let down for me. However the gameplay was great. I guess you could say the game is dumbed down for the numbercrunchers, but so what. Games are for fun and for having fun with others. When I play D&D with my friends its about fun, we dont get psychotic about skills we can or cant use as a class. Sure we bend rules sometimes to add flair, but maybe we will get to do the same in this game?. Also remember it was one beta weekend...if you base your whole opinion of this game on 2 days of game time, please just give it time.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
The difference is a longsword and a mace are different weapons etc. Look the whole illusion argument is not a good one at all. You do realize this whole game is an illusion, why have different classes etc, hell why even play the game at all everything is just an illusion. Its all just numbers in a code.
The "illusion" is fun and makes things interesting. Bleh I could say why bother, life is just an illusion and then you die....
The illusion is fun just as long as it makes sense. Completely different weapons behaving the same way breaks the immersion. I would rather see a class wielding a mace that feels like it is wielding a mace later than adding just a skin for the sword that is shaped like a mace and vice versa. The current system provides that and the longsword and the dagger feel completely different as weapons.
The illusion is fun just as long as it makes sense. Completely different weapons behaving the same way breaks the immersion. I would rather see a class wielding a mace that feels like it is wielding a mace later than adding just a skin for the sword that is shaped like a mace and vice versa. The current system provides that and the longsword and the dagger feel completely different as weapons.
Telling me I can't use a rapier or hammer because I "MUST" use dagger breaks immersion a hell of a lot more for me. Telling me my dagger are awesome against skellies, is immersion breaking to me when I know I should be using a blunt weapon etc etc.
There's quite a few thing in this game as of now that don't make much sense, seeing this is "based" on 4e dnd. I don't expect a direct translation, I am not a pnp purist, but they have gone way to loose with somethings.
Mind you when I say this I am not saying the game isn't fun, only that it has much room for improvement.
Telling me I can't use a rapier or hammer because I "MUST" use dagger breaks immersion a hell of a lot more for me. Telling me my dagger are awesome against skellies, is immersion breaking to me when I know I should be using a blunt weapon etc etc.
There's quite a few thing in this game as of now that don't make much sense, seeing this is "based" on 4e dnd. I don't expect a direct translation, I am not a pnp purist, but they have gone way to loose with somethings.
Mind you when I say this I am not saying the game isn't fun, only that it has much room for improvement.
Quite a lot of things in D&D don't make much sense. In fact most of the "immersion" breaking factors that you speak about are things that do not make sense. Do you wield a mace and a dagger in the same way? Can you do the same things with a mace that you can do with a dagger? Is someone skilled at using daggers automatically able to use maces? Also why would skeletons be easier to kill with a blunt weapon than with a sharp one? Because you break their bones? But can't you do that with an axe or a sword? Can't you actually cut through a skeleton more easily than through a living being with flesh on it? Does blunt force trauma do something to skeletons as then have no internal organs to cause damage to and they cannot internally bleed? But I digress.
I think gameplay variety is much more important than visual variety. No one said there isn't much room for improvement in this game but I would rather see improvements in actual content rather than only visual improvement to satisfy the need for visual variety.
I would rather see improvements in actual content rather than only visual improvement to satisfy the need for visual variety.
This right here.
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amorraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Too long to read? Some main points are below.
We only have access to 7abilities at any given time that are divided into 3 different groups. Having too many options for skills makes balancing an issue and intimidates.
More customization is pointless as there always seems to be only one or two accepted builds for any class. Deviating from said classes gets one laughed at and accused of being a n00b.
Nothing stops you from drawing/writing your characters the way you envision them. No illusion is broken simply because of the limitations of the scripted/coded world unless you let it fall apart. (I honestly pity the person who is unable to get past in-game appearance/limitations with their own vision of the character(s) they play. Especially if they claim to be Role-Players.)
You never know, if you keep posting constructive posts they may decide to add more ‘freedom’ in ability choices. But constructive is not the same as complaining or whining that the customization does not exist.
All this talk of choices and illusion of customization make me giggle.
Most of the MMOs I have played did not give you a choice when it came to powers. I think people are looking at the powers and associating them with talent trees. In EverQuest, every cleric got the same skill(s) at the same level. In World of Warcraft it works the same way. Every protection warrior gets their abilities at the same level (this has not changed since the game’s release by the way).
Now, we get to the core. Instead of having us choose a base class and then specializing in a particular field (Battle Cleric/Devoted Cleric for instance) they are separating the specializations into separate classes. This is where a lot of the lost ‘illusion’ of customization went. There is still a variation in the classes actual talent tree, even if they are only minor differences at the moment. (There are three different ways for the Devoted Cleric to do their healing thing.)
If we are talking about how we envision our characters versus how they appear in game (including the weapons they use) then people are being way to nit-picky on the subject. What if I wanted my character to use whips? (A whip is one weapon I have not seen in an online RPG/MMORPG since EverQuest.) I could complain about how the game breaks my illusion of what I want my character to be. The truth, however, is the game does not stop me from illustrating the character properly outside of the game. So any drawings I do or have done can properly display the character as I envision him or her.
It works the same way with short stories. If I want my devoted cleric character to be as skilled with a long sword or dagger as she is with a mace or holy symbol then I can write that into the story. But realistically it would make no sense that a character that spends most of their time worshiping or hitting the books would be capable of using a wide variety of weapons with equal finesse. Not being proficient in a weapon does not necessarily prevent you from using the weapon, I agree, but holding the weapon is not the same as knowing how to properly use it.
If you have never shot a real bow before, I dare you to go to an archery range and shoot one. There will only be a very few people who could shoot them perfectly despite having never held one before (or never training with one). Likewise there is a huge difference between using a dagger and a short sword. A long sword and a great sword. A mace and a two handed sword. Not only do you have to deal with a difference in balance/weight but the intended styles of combat associated with the weapon.
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
So what is the difference, gameplaywise, if you play cleric with a longsword or cleric with a mace if you can use the same skills with each weapon? This is a choice illusion and not a real choice. Changing the system completely will require time and money. I would rather have more choices in the current system than having a system that only gives you illusion of choice.
What, in DnD, is the difference between a rapier (1d6 damage, weighs 4 lbs) and a short sword (1d6 damage, weighs 3 pounds)? If you want to play an elven warrior, does it matter if he uses a longsword or an axe to you? It's about character. What fits your imagined persona. I suppose you could have a handaxe (d6 damage) and say it's a rapier in your character description. But it makes for a terrible visual if you're playing Dartagnan.
Changing the system completely isn't necessary. The framework is already there. They should expand upon that framework (which is strong), and make the existing system more individualized. I state to say "give the illusion of choice" as a starting point, not as the way things will eventually work. I'm not even talking about release, necessarily, although the most basic point of it could be done by release (and easily).
For example, level 1 cleric can be made to choose for his "at-will" power a or power b. Three months after realease, three more options get added. Now choices mean something. This isn't designing a dungeon; nor is it inserting a vast amount of content. The initial work is making some UI changes. Adding further powers will be the "work".
Honestly, it's a moot point. Andy Velasquez (the Squez) has already stated he wanted to do this in a podcast, so whether it happens prior to release or post-release, I'm happy the devs recognize the desire for it. Perhaps a free-form character slot to be purchased in the store, like as not.
EDIT: When I say "easily", I mean "with less work than adding a new dungeon or adding another class". Editing UI elements in a game is something I've done, not as a lua edit of a WOW mod, but a full-fledged engine where this wasn't exactly open to editing. I also do software development for a living, and have done so for close to ten years. So I have some idea of the difficulty level on a few items within the game, based on game files I've perused.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
What, in DnD, is the difference between a rapier (1d6 damage, weighs 4 lbs) and a short sword (1d6 damage, weighs 3 pounds)? If you want to play an elven warrior, does it matter if he uses a longsword or an axe to you? It's about character. What fits your imagined persona. I suppose you could have a handaxe (d6 damage) and say it's a rapier in your character description. But it makes for a terrible visual if you're playing Dartagnan.
Changing the system completely isn't necessary. The framework is already there. They should expand upon that framework (which is strong), and make the existing system more individualized. I state to say "give the illusion of choice" as a starting point, not as the way things will eventually work. I'm not even talking about release, necessarily, although the most basic point of it could be done by release (and easily).
For example, level 1 cleric can be made to choose for his "at-will" power a or power b. Three months after realease, three more options get added. Now choices mean something. This isn't designing a dungeon; nor is it inserting a vast amount of content. The initial work is making some UI changes. Adding further powers will be the "work".
Honestly, it's a moot point. Andy Velasquez (the Squez) has already stated he wanted to do this in a podcast, so whether it happens prior to release or post-release, I'm happy the devs recognize the desire for it. Perhaps a free-form character slot to be purchased in the store, like as not.
EDIT: When I say "easily", I mean "with less work than adding a new dungeon or adding another class". Editing UI elements in a game is something I've done, not as a lua edit of a WOW mod, but a full-fledged engine where this wasn't exactly open to editing. I also do software development for a living, and have done so for close to ten years. So I have some idea of the difficulty level on a few items within the game, based on game files I've perused.
I already said many times that I support that new skills must be added to the system as there are too few of them right now. Also the illusion you are speaking about is already in the game - there are 2-handed clubs for GWF in addition to the swords and axes for rogues. The thing I'm opposed to is changing the system because someone wanted to be able to carry a sword with his magic missile casting wizard.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I love the argument- well D&D doesn't have unlimited customization, so this game isn't much different. This game has 5 ways you can make a character, period- D&D still has hundreds or great ways to build your character. People aren't annoyed because there isn't UNLIMITED customization- they're annoyed because there is ZERO NONE ZILCH NOTHING for customization at all. They're annoyed because we're used to a system where you could pick from a wide variety, build a certain way if you wanted to, where there were meaningful feats and skills that could let you play 5 of the same class in utterly different ways.
Yes- 4e D&D sucks, everyone knows that it's been simplified to the extreme to cater to people who aren't going to touch D&D anyway- but even so it is far from this restrictive.
What's the benefit exactly of having such a restrictive customization system? "Well you can focus on things beyond combat in D&D"- fair enough argument for pnp... but this game doesn't have anything but combat- story is generic, there's no diplomacy or real puzzles/traps of note or situations to think your way out of... just combat. Even there- can't choose weapons, items, skills, etc... so there's nothing there to help with combat or beyond combat.
At the moment- this is an extremely generic dungeon delver with a Forgotten Realms skin- if you took away the name Neverwinter, this could be confused with a Diablo mmo.
I already said many times that I support that new skills must be added to the system as there are too few of them right now. Also the illusion you are speaking about is already in the game - there are 2-handed clubs for GWF in addition to the swords and axes for rogues. The thing I'm opposed to is changing the system because someone wanted to be able to carry a sword with his magic missile casting wizard.
D&D 4th Edition Player's Handbook, page 171:
Paragon Build: Wizard of the Spiral Tower
Prerequisite: Wizard,proficiency with longsword
'Nuff said
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Its just a weapon they dont need to change the whole system to allow you to play with one even if its only cosmetic.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited February 2013
I've found the feat system to be an adequate way to specialize my character, coupled with equipment variety and enchantment slots. However, the biggest way you can change the way your character plays isn't in passive selections made while leveling up - character definition truly shines by changing which skills you take into battle. Even if - and this is a big if - I was playing a Cleric and another party member was playing a cleric, and we managed to pick the same race and exact same feat selections - our characters would operate totally differently by choosing which skills we took into battle with us.
I also greatly enjoy the element of strategy that careful skill selection brings with it. Altering my abilities to suite the encounter or find the greatest combination of powers to suit my party's selection.
However, more is always better.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Taking the devoted Cleric build for exemple. There is nothing in the current system preventing them to equip any simple melee or simple ranged weapons as described in p.60 of the players handbook. Its just a matter of putting the holy symbol in off hand, the weapon in the other and balance the stats between the two stat sticks. They could even go farther if they want more customization by adding 1 at-will and some encounter that uses the weapon.
Saying that they would need to change the system and invest huge time and money to make something like that is ridiculous.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
D&D 4th Edition Player's Handbook, page 171:
Paragon Build: Wizard of the Spiral Tower
Prerequisite: Wizard,proficiency with longsword
'Nuff said
Sorry but how is this not implementable with the current system? After all you are using the sword as a arcane implement and not as a sword and the current paragon system in the game allows for skills to be added for specific paragon path i.e. it is possible to give a mage melee attacks with sword as a paragon path. Still some of the abilities you are going to use ONLY with a sword.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Sorry but how is this not implementable with the current system? After all you are using the sword as a arcane implement and not as a sword and the current paragon system in the game allows for skills to be added for specific paragon path i.e. it is possible to give a mage melee attacks with sword as a paragon path. Still some of the abilities you are going to use ONLY with a sword.
Not sure i understand what you mean? In that paragon path the longsword becomes the arcane implement for all the wizards spells, it just replaces the orb or any other arcane implement. Basically his sword would just be a stat stick with 1 or 2 paragon spells that uses it for the animation.
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elveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 336
Not sure i understand what you mean? In that paragon path the longsword becomes the arcane implement for all the wizards spells, it just replaces the orb or any other arcane implement. Basically his sword would just be a stat stick with 1 or 2 paragon spells that uses it for the animation.
Basically - yes. Fireball is fireball, doesn't matter what spell you use to cast it. Still I think paragon paths should provide a lot more skills than they currently do.
Comments
I know I, for one, don't use that argument at all. One of the key points of DnD is being able to make your character individual and unique. And not because he has a mohawk.
You are basically granted 5 at-will powers. Why not allow you to select which of those five you start with at level 1? At level 2? Level 10?
Funny thing, power selection is a pretty basic premise in MMOs, if you skip WOW (WOW was via some talent trees, which gave you more spells). And it's not like they would have to create new options. By level 30, you might have the same 5 at-wills available to slot in your bars. So it's really the illusion of choice that people crave, not even actual choice. Because DDO doesn't offer that many more options.
CO is a good example of this. Freeform! People cry. But honestly, the only thing differing isn't damage, or what the ability does. It's appearance. Fire, electricity, many of these "powersets" are actually identical in function and damage with some variations for a PBAoE, or whatever. But basically, you have 10 different "power builders" split between 5 melee, 5 ranged. Then you get your single target DPS power, again, all fluff animation difference, no real effect difference.
This can be done, with assets that already exist in the game.
This is exactly what I've been saying this entire thread. No one in here understands that in the end there isn't a choice. Someone on each Class forum is going to post "this is the best build for X" and the majority of the community is going to copy that build. Or maybe the Class Officer in a Guild tells his other classmates to try out X and Y, and they all do. The same is true for every MMO that has, does, or will exist.
The other people in the thread need to stop crying for choice just to have choice and understand that in the end, choice doesn't exist.
Honestly, hibb, you're right. But people want that illusion. And it's not hard to add.
So basically you are complaining that there are not enough animations for the exact same thing... Great. And here I thought that in a game the most important thing is the gameplay. Gameplaywise the powers are diverse enough to justify separating them in separate classes. The separation is also not bad - it is on per-weapon basis. I, for once, don't want to see a bunch of things I cannot use with my current selected weapon. Really, are you going to use shield bash on your GWF or on your Tempest Fighter?
morhilane, and you are complaining because a class is not added yet... well, cannot argue with that, can I? Still your grief does not seem to be with the system itself but with the lack of a particular option you would like to see.
Please before pleading for free-form system consider what you are really asking about and if it is important. If you are asking for something as meaningless as different animations - then don't do it. Useless stuff usually take the most time to do. Animations and synching them with the actual logic behind the game would probably cost you a really cool feature in the long run.
Not at all, Elve. Re-read my post. That was an example of choice, I do not want anything close to CO for this game.
However, there should be options. Choose power A or Power B for (say) devout cleric - not a rogue ability ported over. And apparently, per the NOCS podcast, the developers agree on that point.
Yeah I was talking about this very issue with another beta friend. If they had say, 26 pre-made characters to play instead of the five we've told been will be available at launch, would people be a little less upset over customization/class progression? Probably, but It would seem it should be one way or the other. Fully customizable or so many classes to choose from you feel like you're getting a real choice.
I remember playing DDO after (and then simultaneously) with EQ2 and having such fewer classes to choose from in DDO. Later realizing the massive customization, not just the feats and skills, but multi-classing, easy made it more interesting. (Note: this was before the skill tree was fully introduced in EQ2.)
I understand the trinity of basic rpg classes, but the experience of grouping with very similar classes (builds, characters, whatever you wish to call it) over and over could get tiresome, for me at least.
The main problem, just in my opinion, is that the class/feat system doesn't really feel as customizable, not just for DnD as people are mostly debating, but from some other MMOs I've played. Can I create an assassin class who later becomes master with a bow instead of daggers? Yes please. Can I make an evil-healy type shaman later become a terror in melee combat? Yes, I love it.
Not that I expect that exactly from Neverwinter, but a little more than has been presented isn't too much to ask for I believe.
Because, my friend, it's a short step to fleshing out the skills available at each level so that you CAN be a longsword-wielding cleric or specialize in a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> sword after that. It's not even a re-work.
It's adding into the UI the ability to chose between existing skills at level 1,2, 7, 15, and 20.
Step 2: Add more at-will powers, so that you won't get all ten by level 30, and have to make decisions. That step 2 will never be reached if the option at level isn't present to select, well, anything.
So what is the difference, gameplaywise, if you play cleric with a longsword or cleric with a mace if you can use the same skills with each weapon? This is a choice illusion and not a real choice. Changing the system completely will require time and money. I would rather have more choices in the current system than having a system that only gives you illusion of choice.
The difference is a longsword and a mace are different weapons etc. Look the whole illusion argument is not a good one at all. You do realize this whole game is an illusion, why have different classes etc, hell why even play the game at all everything is just an illusion. Its all just numbers in a code.
The "illusion" is fun and makes things interesting. Bleh I could say why bother, life is just an illusion and then you die....
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
I went to barnes and noble and read through the 4th ed players handbook. They are following it pretty close. The entire 4th ed is about streamling which inevitably limits choice in character skills. Instead of Pick pockets, pick locks, and disarm trap, they consonlodated them all into thievery. Instead of spot, search, alertness, they have perception.
It's perfect for an action based game. I agree that it is missing the deep character development but I disagree about the importance of a deep character progression in an MMO. They don't even call them MMORPG's anymore. DDO has 3.5 rule and all the feats and enchanments if you want deep character development with tons of choice, is F2P, and it still has a small playerbase.
Telling me I can't use a rapier or hammer because I "MUST" use dagger breaks immersion a hell of a lot more for me. Telling me my dagger are awesome against skellies, is immersion breaking to me when I know I should be using a blunt weapon etc etc.
There's quite a few thing in this game as of now that don't make much sense, seeing this is "based" on 4e dnd. I don't expect a direct translation, I am not a pnp purist, but they have gone way to loose with somethings.
Mind you when I say this I am not saying the game isn't fun, only that it has much room for improvement.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Quite a lot of things in D&D don't make much sense. In fact most of the "immersion" breaking factors that you speak about are things that do not make sense. Do you wield a mace and a dagger in the same way? Can you do the same things with a mace that you can do with a dagger? Is someone skilled at using daggers automatically able to use maces? Also why would skeletons be easier to kill with a blunt weapon than with a sharp one? Because you break their bones? But can't you do that with an axe or a sword? Can't you actually cut through a skeleton more easily than through a living being with flesh on it? Does blunt force trauma do something to skeletons as then have no internal organs to cause damage to and they cannot internally bleed? But I digress.
I think gameplay variety is much more important than visual variety. No one said there isn't much room for improvement in this game but I would rather see improvements in actual content rather than only visual improvement to satisfy the need for visual variety.
This right here.
All this talk of choices and illusion of customization make me giggle.
Most of the MMOs I have played did not give you a choice when it came to powers. I think people are looking at the powers and associating them with talent trees. In EverQuest, every cleric got the same skill(s) at the same level. In World of Warcraft it works the same way. Every protection warrior gets their abilities at the same level (this has not changed since the game’s release by the way).
Now, we get to the core. Instead of having us choose a base class and then specializing in a particular field (Battle Cleric/Devoted Cleric for instance) they are separating the specializations into separate classes. This is where a lot of the lost ‘illusion’ of customization went. There is still a variation in the classes actual talent tree, even if they are only minor differences at the moment. (There are three different ways for the Devoted Cleric to do their healing thing.)
If we are talking about how we envision our characters versus how they appear in game (including the weapons they use) then people are being way to nit-picky on the subject. What if I wanted my character to use whips? (A whip is one weapon I have not seen in an online RPG/MMORPG since EverQuest.) I could complain about how the game breaks my illusion of what I want my character to be. The truth, however, is the game does not stop me from illustrating the character properly outside of the game. So any drawings I do or have done can properly display the character as I envision him or her.
It works the same way with short stories. If I want my devoted cleric character to be as skilled with a long sword or dagger as she is with a mace or holy symbol then I can write that into the story. But realistically it would make no sense that a character that spends most of their time worshiping or hitting the books would be capable of using a wide variety of weapons with equal finesse. Not being proficient in a weapon does not necessarily prevent you from using the weapon, I agree, but holding the weapon is not the same as knowing how to properly use it.
If you have never shot a real bow before, I dare you to go to an archery range and shoot one. There will only be a very few people who could shoot them perfectly despite having never held one before (or never training with one). Likewise there is a huge difference between using a dagger and a short sword. A long sword and a great sword. A mace and a two handed sword. Not only do you have to deal with a difference in balance/weight but the intended styles of combat associated with the weapon.
What, in DnD, is the difference between a rapier (1d6 damage, weighs 4 lbs) and a short sword (1d6 damage, weighs 3 pounds)? If you want to play an elven warrior, does it matter if he uses a longsword or an axe to you? It's about character. What fits your imagined persona. I suppose you could have a handaxe (d6 damage) and say it's a rapier in your character description. But it makes for a terrible visual if you're playing Dartagnan.
Changing the system completely isn't necessary. The framework is already there. They should expand upon that framework (which is strong), and make the existing system more individualized. I state to say "give the illusion of choice" as a starting point, not as the way things will eventually work. I'm not even talking about release, necessarily, although the most basic point of it could be done by release (and easily).
For example, level 1 cleric can be made to choose for his "at-will" power a or power b. Three months after realease, three more options get added. Now choices mean something. This isn't designing a dungeon; nor is it inserting a vast amount of content. The initial work is making some UI changes. Adding further powers will be the "work".
Honestly, it's a moot point. Andy Velasquez (the Squez) has already stated he wanted to do this in a podcast, so whether it happens prior to release or post-release, I'm happy the devs recognize the desire for it. Perhaps a free-form character slot to be purchased in the store, like as not.
EDIT: When I say "easily", I mean "with less work than adding a new dungeon or adding another class". Editing UI elements in a game is something I've done, not as a lua edit of a WOW mod, but a full-fledged engine where this wasn't exactly open to editing. I also do software development for a living, and have done so for close to ten years. So I have some idea of the difficulty level on a few items within the game, based on game files I've perused.
I already said many times that I support that new skills must be added to the system as there are too few of them right now. Also the illusion you are speaking about is already in the game - there are 2-handed clubs for GWF in addition to the swords and axes for rogues. The thing I'm opposed to is changing the system because someone wanted to be able to carry a sword with his magic missile casting wizard.
Yes- 4e D&D sucks, everyone knows that it's been simplified to the extreme to cater to people who aren't going to touch D&D anyway- but even so it is far from this restrictive.
What's the benefit exactly of having such a restrictive customization system? "Well you can focus on things beyond combat in D&D"- fair enough argument for pnp... but this game doesn't have anything but combat- story is generic, there's no diplomacy or real puzzles/traps of note or situations to think your way out of... just combat. Even there- can't choose weapons, items, skills, etc... so there's nothing there to help with combat or beyond combat.
At the moment- this is an extremely generic dungeon delver with a Forgotten Realms skin- if you took away the name Neverwinter, this could be confused with a Diablo mmo.
D&D 4th Edition Player's Handbook, page 171:
Paragon Build: Wizard of the Spiral Tower
Prerequisite: Wizard, proficiency with longsword
'Nuff said
I also greatly enjoy the element of strategy that careful skill selection brings with it. Altering my abilities to suite the encounter or find the greatest combination of powers to suit my party's selection.
However, more is always better.
Saying that they would need to change the system and invest huge time and money to make something like that is ridiculous.
Not sure i understand what you mean? In that paragon path the longsword becomes the arcane implement for all the wizards spells, it just replaces the orb or any other arcane implement. Basically his sword would just be a stat stick with 1 or 2 paragon spells that uses it for the animation.