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Dose any one agree with me . . . no real choice?
trigaa
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 6 Arc User
I ask what class builds?
There dose seem to be enough choice I think to constitute calling any thing a "build"
we get to choose some feet points. And from what I could tell it did not matter were I put these. it really did not affect anything for me in a meaning full way.
Dose any one else agree that the character progression really doe not exist?
There dose seem to be enough choice I think to constitute calling any thing a "build"
we get to choose some feet points. And from what I could tell it did not matter were I put these. it really did not affect anything for me in a meaning full way.
Dose any one else agree that the character progression really doe not exist?
Post edited by trigaa on
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I agree with many people that more choices would be nice. It 'feels' like there is an illusion of a much different build(s) in the skill trees, but there really isn't. There are options, but because of the pre-made builds, it would be silly for a cleric to go full dps, and lose some healing ability. Or a Guardian to choose every offensive ability and lose defensive ability. Especially since they'll be pre-made builds to handle offense (rogue, future classes).
If you plan on grouping it definitely feels like you have to choose certain lines to further the "pre-made" build. So continuing that line of thinking, I'd agree, no real choice when you progress. The choice will be which class you play up front. All subject to change of course, but how much!
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?50671-Not-D-amp-D&goto=newpost
These are just generalizations of the problem of course, but the problem is there. Cookie cutter classes take the fun out of character creation. Seriously, why have a bio section that provides a back story for your character? Everyone using a class is the same minus some Paragon tweaks. Yippee.
The problem with your side is that you want Online Dungeons and Dragons. This isn't quite that. Yes this uses the DnD name and the DnD lore, but this isn't a tabletop and never will be. You simply cannot give players absolute customization over their choices. No MMO developer will ever do that. It only leads to disaster because it only takes 1 dumbass to ruin it for everyone else. But to pinpoint some of your points:
1) If you are a Religious Guardian Fighter there is an awesome thing that actually gives you the Religion skill. RP-wise you can choose to never, ever use Dungeoneering and opt to only open Religion-based objects. Sure this isn't what -you- want but in the end it is the exact same thing. The -choice- is still there. The devs are not MAKING you use the skill at all. Hell, you can opt to run around completely naked yelling Cthulhu is going to cause the end of the Earth next to the Mail Courier and no one is going to stop you. That is your -choice- on how to play your character.
2) The Feats and Paragon trees are not "pre-planned" because you guys don't understand what level 60 damage is going to be like. Level 60 is NOT going to be 30x2. And level 30 is a terrible place to think "this is how the game is going to be forever". For instance, there is a specific Feat that gives Rogues bonus to power every time they crit. That is insanely powerful. It allows them to stack crit without having to sacrifice power because they gain that power through this Feat. Do you understand just how amazing that is DPS-wise? This game's Feat/Paragon system is amazing and gives so much diversity to how you are going to play your character. Yes some of the Feats are only usable in certain scenarios (like the Rogue one that gives their Shadow clone more health and Reflecting damage, useless in PvP and raids), but in the end you can choose to play a Rogue in a specific way. The same goes for Guardian Fighter and Devoted Cleric.
Why we have feat points, when it makes a miniscule amount of change/difference!(if i choose something, i want to see +- impact)
Would love to see more range of weapons per character, my cleric wants a hammer or mace!!
I like the combat, although it dosnt feel like D&D at all.
1) I may "choose" not to use them, but then I'd be gimping myself. Would you? Didn't think so.
2) Cookie cutter classes. There will be more choices later on, but they'll still be cookie cutter, and as the levels progress they'll get stronger versions of their base skills with some variations to appease the masses. Yes, I'm oversimplifying, but I'm not lying.
I'm basing my analysis on my online gaming experience, which is extensive, and D&D franchises comprise only a fraction of it. I'm not claiming you're not experienced, but I can't base my statements on yours, can I?
I'm voicing it because this game has the potential to be great without compromising the roots that this medium is based on, and the sooner the problems inherent are addressed the better. Regardless of it being called an action oriented mmo or and mmorpg, once they slapped the D&D and Neverwinter monickers they had an obligation to meet the standards those names are based on. Otherwise it's just another MMO, and I'm not the only one that would say this.
Here is the kicker folks. Even if the developing team agrees, and Wizard of Coast even grants them permission (which they wont) these guys are locked in to how the game plays since it is now a mechanic. It would cost some serious money to redo everything involved with character advancement. Plus the fact the game is due out in a couple of months, it might not be likely.
One other game that I know of completely changed their class system a few times and it is now in the graveyard. SWG RIP.
Don't get me wrong, I want change as well, I want the freedom of choosing some things for my class to individualize it to me. But as far as the skills? Come on... 14 silver and you get the skill for 3 minutes :P
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
Technically, to change this, what they would need to do is:
1. Balance the game so that statistic choices (max WIS, max CHA, split, CON dump) actually mean something. Gear should be supplemental to the base stats, not the other way around.
2. Allow choices of feats at level 1 for at-will from the existing at-will powers. Then allow a new at-will power at level 10 and level 15 (also from existing powers). If they wanted to be really adventurous, they could add a couple more in.
3. Allow choices (not just on a UI bar) for which encounter powers are granted at each level. Sunburst at level 2? Ok. Chains at level 5? Fine.
4. Allow a choice of daily powers (of the ones already existing) at different levels (level 2, etc.)
If they wanted to, they could highlight the ones they have slotted at various levels now as "recommended". However, the changes above use assets already in-game. All the coding is UI, not as bad as one would think - certainly not "re-working the entire game from the ground up". They would have to scale the abilities by level, rather than some sort of false "rank up" that just gives a false sense of progression when the power should just auto-scale. Most MMOs do this anyways; even WOW did it when they revamped skills and removed training costs. That's just a variable which states damage = (level * d6), a very basic function.
The biggest problem would be re-balancing the game around point 1, but honestly, that should have been done from the start. Every MMO in the past weighs statistics more than "avoidance", "armor penetration", "spellpower". Those are important stats end-game. But your base statistics determine everything, yes, even in WOW. As a mage, you're stacking INT to cap, etc. In Champs online you want to focus your SS on Dex, but get all CON gear. The other stats like avoidance, etc. get focused on later, once your primary statistics have capped out and are giving no further return.
How can you think tabletop isn't just as cookie-cutter? There are X classes, X feats, and there is a set amount of variations you can combine the two. I have no idea how you think there isn't a limit to the number of possibilities for your character in any edition of DnD, but there is. No video game, tabletop, dice game, etc. can ever have an unlimited amount of customization, it is impossible. I would love for you to tell me these mystical MMOs that give you complete customization (and please make sure they are actually thriving; if you link me to some MMO that has 20 people playing it, it will only prove my point further).
Yes, you are oversimplifying, but only for 1 game and not both. Sure you can choose to only use maces and never another item in tabletop, but does that actually mean anything significant? No. See the problem is that you are attached to the idea of choosing everything, and that will never happen. Both games are just as simple in regards to how you can pick and choose your character.. This one is just moreso (because it HAS to be).
I mean honestly.. At level 60 when you are in full raid gear does it really matter if your hair had a little bit more of a hint of red in it. Or did it matter that you HAD to have the option to opt out of worshiping a God? No. What you are trying to do is make trivial things big issues for the sake of having something to HAMSTER about.
You are setting it up as if level 20 is the max level like a tabletop. That isn't the case. Level 60 is the max. If we gained everything by level 10-15, the rest of the levels would be a boring grind and it would kill the entire point of experience the leveling process of 1-60--getting new abilities, exploring a new word, and just enjoying your class to its fullest.
Can the RP'rs in this thread please stop trying to turn this into an Online Tabletop. It will never be one, they will never change it to one, and they will never implement changes that cause it to be more like one.
I'm not an RPer. I'm a gamer. And I am talking about level 60, so don't jump to conclusions.
As far as options and whatnot, that's the point. In WOW, I can have a shadow priest or a smite priest by level 30-ish. From one class, selecting certain "powers". There is no such customization here. I have the exact same "build" as every other priest out there. The idea of "the unlimited customization that Cryptic has become known for" was limiting me to three powers on my hotbar.
Yay.
EDIT: Re-reading my post, I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I was an RPer. Every reference made was to an MMO. My post was to offer the illusion of choice - the players all end up with the same powers by level 30. Except stats, which, frankly speaking, has been the base-line for every MMO since EQ.
Let me explain:
Lets say they do it the right way and give us classes like.. oh, idk... Fighter, Cleric, Rogue... and let us build off of the skills and powers the classes already have, to make an enjoyable build that we love and care for.
This, however, is not in the plan. The plan is to throw out as many archetypes as possible, with a $price tag$. That way, you'll have to continually give them money, just to play the 'exact' build of an 'exact' class that you want.... Isnt Cryptic smart!
Actually, no. That's not why Cryptic is making it this way. They're trying to save work by skipping balance and making everyone the same, with slight variations based on feat choices. This makes PvP easier to balance, content easier to build, and items easier to fabricate.
I've built worlds using the NWN toolset. I know how to cut corners to make something playable, with as few options as possible to save development cost.
They've stated they won't charge for classes, and I'm not sure if that will hold true or not. Either way, this is a time and money saver.
Come on, if you ever played 3.5 or Pathfinder or Star Wars or Shadowrun or Gurps or Robotech or well any number of PnP RPGs you would know that your initial statement is so far off... Try finding a "Powerful Wizard Build" for DnD, you are going to get a TON of options and then reasons behind it.
Look at Neverwinter Nights and it's sequel. You hop on a server right now, and take a poll on what classes people play i.e. their "builds" and I can almost promise you that no two will be the same, and this is out of hundreds of people playing with a multitude of alts. Even the Druid 30 build for servers that make Dragonshape awesome, those druids are still different.
DnD and other RPGs are all about choices and having a range of choices to make your character and help develop them.
And if they really wanted to make changes like that, Get Kaedrin in on this :P Teach him your engine and see what he can do :P (I want 10% of your earnings when you are hired man hehe)
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
Also this is not a trivial matter it has to do with the longevity of the game in my opinion. I know this is an MMO and thus a video game but that said it is still disappointing how they chose to do feats and equipment. NWN had/has a devoted following because in the end they gave great choice or at least the chance to make your own choices that the foundry here just barely touches. I want this game to succeed and be here for a long period of time with me happily playing in it. If they don't give me a real chance to feel like the character is mine and not theirs it takes away for me any long term enjoyment. If I'm not here to enjoy the game then I'm not here spending money. I see no reason to spend money customizing the looks of their character.
(There are lesser limitatons regarding weapon choices in the game that are most likely (hopefully) a temporary restriction in these early days)
Google the 4th Edition Player's Handbook, have a quick read of that, and you'll realise your grievances are not with the NWO devs, they are in fact with the 4th edition ruleset.
So you may rightly complain that 4th edition included many horrible changes or that the devs ought to have used a different ruleset - i'd agree - but to accuse them of "departing from D&D" is unfair and quite mistaken.
I've never claimed unlimited customization, that is your assumption. What we desire is customization that allows us to branch out, not have the branches we want cut off from the tree.
Mystical MMOs, per your request (every game, no matter how great, has a shelf life. There is no escaping that. Developers and publishers are aware of this, and so should you be. The latter part of your request is unreasonable and therefore ignored):
Eden Eternal
DDO
Blade and Soul
Maginobi
I can actually continue but I think I've made my point.
When we make a choice in tabletop or online, it's not significant to anyone but the chooser, and that's how it should be. And this game one doesn't HAVE to be the way it is. The devs chose to ignore the core of the setting it derived the game from, and THAT shouldn't be. If it seems trivial to some, then they're not caring about the core, and that's fine. Not everyone comes from the setting or feels the same way about it. Derogating someone about their comments is in poor character however, and should be avoided in order to keep the discussion civilized.
They really haven't. At least, not to the extent some seem to believe. 4th edition is significantly streamlined as compared to 3 or 3.5. The devs have actually done a fine job of interpreting 4th edition for an action oriented MMORPG. Unfortunately, that which they have interpretted is the HAMSTER 4th edition ruleset, which significantly restricts the versatility of classes.
If there is a mistake made by the devs, it was in choosing this ruleset, not in their general interpretation of D&D. I'm not sure how much liberty they really would have had in that regard, though i'd have to say 4th edition, for all its failing, is a much wiser choice for an MMORPG. Streamlined rulesets = fewer balance issues. Considering most of a player base eventually gravitate towards optimised builds anyway, they're probably thinking this is a clever design.
I'll admit i've not found much information on the polished product they intend to release. I have been hoping that our choice of class will much more closely resemble 4e core classes when they release the option to play such variants. It will be strange if sword & board and great weapon fighters are indeed packaged as distinct classes... Similarly for battle v. devout clerics.
I'll reserve my judgment until the polished product is released.
I'm glad somebody noticed a change in how it played 'cause I didn't notice any real changes in my cleric. I tried several different sets of equipment also to see if that made any difference and it did make a very small one. After the comments made by a dev in the MMORPG live stream I was expecting somthing a bit different in how the quipment helped customize play. I just never found a way to play a devout cleric that fit me. I felt the selection was to small and the changes if any were to incremental to make a significant change in game play.
I didn't even notice a feat tree it was more of a vine. I never saw choosing this opens up this but not that. I'm not having much hope from paragon paths from reading their descriptions or reading about the experiences of those who made it to level 30.
I get that paragon paths/levels will add some variety, but you know what? I picked a path at level 30...toon played the exact same way. Even though it is only beta, I think it is wishful thinking that they will suddenly veer away from everything they have shown and ALL OF A SUDDEN WE GET VARIETY when you go past level 30.
Very unlikely.
I get what you are saying, but in my opinion that isn't variety in playstyle or freedom in character development. EVERYONE has those same skills. EVERYONE can do the same things you can do. You are a DPS, that is your role, you can't really do anything else (nor are you designed to).
I think that is the biggest complaint. While in D&D you had freedom to make a rogue more than simply the "stabby-stabby" guy, in NWO that is all you will ever be.
Doesn't make it a bad game, doesn't make it not fun, just means that it is lacking freedom. That is evident in everything from the scripted gameplay, non-existent choices or impact in the questlines, predetermined character development, and funneled map content.
No freedom, no choice, no control.
If anyone knows something to contradict this hopeful explanation, please advise me :]
But more than that, the classes we have seen are not the core classes of 4e. It's necessarily limited content for the purpose of beta. When the game is released, it's most likely that "Guardian Fighter" will instead become what it ought to be, a plain "Fighter", which becomes a Guardian or Great Weapon Fighter depending on the specialisation you choose. Likewise for all the other classes when more content is released later on. Brawny or Trickster Rogue, Battle or Devoted Cleric etc etc
This is merely my guess, but it's a reasonable one.
The concerns are valid and ought to be voiced, but I think they are running too deep at the moment. It's well and truly too early to damn the game on account of class choices in early beta content.
Of the MMOs you listed, I know of one. I am going to assume the other 3 had a short shelf life. Unfortunately for your point, shelf life does matter, because it directly reflects that giving people unlimited customization or "build" options does not make for a healthy game. Regardless of how many build paths there may be, there is going to be 1 that is the best for a certain situation and if you want to excel at this game you are going to go that build. The same goes for Tabletops, and especially DDO. Hell, look at Guild Wars. That is an absolute PERFECT example of how you can give players 300 abilities, but only 10 of those are even worthwhile in the end for what you want to do. Show me a Guild Wars player that actively used every single ability they learned to maximize their DPS, TPS, or HPS and I will gladly concede.
To anyone else who is saying that Cryptic has the "potential" to give us all these choices you seem to think we should have--they really don't. The game is already crowded with abilities as it is since we only have access to 2 At-Wills, 3 Encounters, and 2 Dailies. It would just be Guild Wars all over again since we would just choose the ones that maximize DPS/TPS/HPS or survivability and the other powers would just be a money loss for Cryptic.
I would rather have 10 balanced, working, and perfect abilities than have 100 unbalanced, untested, thrown-together abilities just for the sake of having more "choice".
Edit: To anyone who is saying "the feats didn't make a big impact on my character":
WE ARE LEVEL THIRTY. Look at level 30 in any other game where the max level is 60 or higher. You do so little damage and healing compared to when you will be max level that the % based increases most feats are OF COURSE going to be little. Feats aren't meant to make an impact immediately, but rather for when you reach the maximum potential of your character.
Okay, I'll bite. Two words. Shadow Priest.
Wrong assumption. I only mentioned games still in service, one yet to be released in North America. Just because you haven't heard of them doesn't make them dead games. The comment on shelf life was to bring some objectivity to the table, which you refuse to employ. That is your choice. And that bring this around to my original point, choice is what defines us. Choice is also what defines the difference between an ok game or a great gaming experience.