lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
edited February 2013
There will be a "tag" system for published content, so just tag it with "Roleplay", "Action", "dialog" and filter the results. This is pretty clearly present in several video demos and from screens shown at the GDC. So, no worries. Just be clear when you create your content.
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dequixoticMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Will there be a way to report adventures that exploit the system or break the rules? If so, obviously there will be too many for Cryptic to stop all of them, so can the system remove the adventure temporarily after a certain amount of reports until Cryptic takes a look?
I long for the day when the majority of the Foundry missions are designed with the fan in mind to give meaningful content. I just hope there are plenty of DM's who are willing to design and implment some of the best content the genre has ever seen. Hoping theres a strong presence of the NWN content designers here to help push this game to its full potential.
If the features they talked about in the Foundry videos pan out, where we can follow authors and they can blog about the quests and other authors they like, it'll be easy even if the star system gets corrupted. That's the weakness of the STO system; not having that easy ability to follow favorite authors or see who they like. Not having to go to the forums for that information will be a huge boon.
Active measures like they've begun taking in STO will help too; they just fixed a major exploit yesterday there.
Each quest(UGC) submitted has to be tested and rated by five of the community testers. If there is an exploit or crappy "fish-IN-A-Barrel" structure to it, chances are it will get the axe before it goes live.
IMO
From what I understand this system is only for thsoe to be featured in the community spotlight. All other missions still get published just without the spotlight system.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
You have no right to claim that your form of fun-having is superior to mine. What you call "deep and meaningful" I view as tedious and a pointless shadow of PnP roleplaying (which I do play, frequently, and enjoy).
I'm not looking for exploit content. I'm looking for content that I enjoy. I do not enjoy wading through dialog boxes, or going on virtual scenic tours. What other basis should I rate content on other than how much I enjoy it?
My hope would be that all UGC is clear and upfront about what sort of gameplay it's intending to provide, whether combat-heavy, dialog-heavy, exploration-heavy, or whatever. I will steer clear of content that is clearly not intended for me, and thus will not rate such content. Will you do the same? Or does the righteousness of your cause demand that you do all you can to purge content that doesn't fit your personal preferences?
But you've already answered that last question. You're hoping that Cryptic bans the sort of content that I would most enjoy? An honest response would just get me in trouble. Suffice to say, that attitude is utterly toxic and what is truly detrimental to this game. A desire for others to be stopped from having the "wrong" kind of fun playing a game rarely gets stated so clearly, but is often at the root of so many problems in a community of gamers.
Such a system would be redundant. Simply describe your quest clearly, and honestly, and I will steer clear.
Maybe your post comes off a bit to ambiguous but let me say this. One of my mission outlines I am working on is tailored to the WoW raiding mindframe but from a solo to small group perspective. A good dungeon romp that takes roughly 1-2 hours to complete with multiple bosses. I have always wanted to see WoW introduce some sort of solo dungeons that followed the Blizzard raid structure.
What I am against is someone who creates a mission that is 1 room with 1-3 mobs and they are easily killable. Do you support missions like mine or like this? I too enjoy the combat but in order for the combat to be meaningful then the content needs to be meaningful. If you are just doing the easiest content for the most amount of XP per hour or loot per run then thats where I have an issue.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
Maybe your post comes off a bit to ambiguous but let me say this. One of my mission outlines I am working on is tailored to the WoW raiding mindframe but from a solo to small group perspective. A good dungeon romp that takes roughly 1-2 hours to complete with multiple bosses. I have always wanted to see WoW introduce some sort of solo dungeons that followed the Blizzard raid structure.
What I am against is someone who creates a mission that is 1 room with 1-3 mobs and they are easily killable. Do you support missions like mine or like this? I too enjoy the combat but in order for the combat to be meaningful then the content needs to be meaningful. If you are just doing the easiest content for the most amount of XP per hour or loot per run then thats where I have an issue.
So... kind of like heroic 5-mans but soloable?
I remember this really cool raid in SWG on Mufasa (or whatever the heck that lava planet was named... I've repressed most of my memories of Star Wars episodes 1 - 3) where it was like this pitched battle where you and a bunch of people had to hold the line against waves of attackers while trying to keep the NPCs alive. And it wasn't like those NWN battles or that one BC-era WoW raid with Kil'jaeden, where a few groups of mobs spawned at a time, it was sheer pandemonium of dozens of mobs swarming over everyone and me, swinging that lightsaber like some bestial, raging caveman with a dinosaur bone, cutting them mobs down like it was the end of the world and all there was left to do was fight and die... it was... glorious...
If I don't see anyone make a "Hold the line" tag for the Foundry, I'm making one myself. And. it. will. be. MAGNIFICENT!
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
Can we make a pact as a community to put a stop to this nonsense and swear a blood oath to not let exploiters and the folks looking to game the system an avenue.
*Nods, slits wrists, blinks.* "What do you mean this is not how you... swear a... blood..." Thump!
I remember this really cool raid in SWG on Mufasa (or whatever the heck that lava planet was named... I've repressed most of my memories of Star Wars episodes 1 - 3) where it was like this pitched battle where you and a bunch of people had to hold the line against waves of attackers while trying to keep the NPCs alive. And it wasn't like those NWN battles or that one BC-era WoW raid with Kil'jaeden, where a few groups of mobs spawned at a time, it was sheer pandemonium of dozens of mobs swarming over everyone and me, swinging that lightsaber like some bestial, raging caveman with a dinosaur bone, cutting them mobs down like it was the end of the world and all there was left to do was fight and die... it was... glorious...
If I don't see anyone make a "Hold the line" tag for the Foundry, I'm making one myself. And. it. will. be. MAGNIFICENT!
Yea basically this. Thinking of 5-7 bosses with plenty pf trash mobs in between.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Maybe your post comes off a bit to ambiguous but let me say this. One of my mission outlines I am working on is tailored to the WoW raiding mindframe but from a solo to small group perspective. A good dungeon romp that takes roughly 1-2 hours to complete with multiple bosses. I have always wanted to see WoW introduce some sort of solo dungeons that followed the Blizzard raid structure.
What I am against is someone who creates a mission that is 1 room with 1-3 mobs and they are easily killable. Do you support missions like mine or like this? I too enjoy the combat but in order for the combat to be meaningful then the content needs to be meaningful. If you are just doing the easiest content for the most amount of XP per hour or loot per run then thats where I have an issue.
If you can do a 1-2 hour quest chock full of interesting combat (with appropriate rewards given the challenge and time-investment), I'd definitely prefer that to the easy 1-room quest. Although I'm somewhat doubtful about the Foundry's capacity to create interesting boss encounters.
The main points of my original post were:
1) I enjoy combat in MMOs, and not other things like dialog boxes or being forced to run around from place to place.
2) Combat is likely to produce the most XP and loot, because that's primarily where the XP/Loot allocation in Foundry comes from, as far as I understand it.
3) Ergo, I'm most likely to support XP/Loot efficient quests, and likely to dislike non-efficient ones that emphasize non-combat gameplay (and would want some indication so I can avoid those quests)
So my opinion is rooted in enjoying combat to the exclusion of basically all other parts of MMOs, not just wanting an easy route to XP and loot (which, actually, "easy" is often not "efficient" when it comes to XP and loot, outside of exploits).
My point was to drive a distinction between exploitation for XP and loot, and simply focusing on the parts of the game that produce the XP and loot.
Basically, sounds like we both miscommunicated with each other. I thought that by rejecting my post, which was intended to justify combat-heavy missions in general, you were likewise rejecting combat-heavy missions and that by "deep and meaningful" you meant story/dialog/exploration heavy missions. But I apparently gave you the impression that I was speaking in favor of a specific kind of combat-heavy mission, designed to provide easy XP and loot, and thus you weren't rejecting combat-heavy missions in general.
While I don't personally like Quoforgeds play style, he is just as entitled as we are to playing the game in a fashion he finds enjoyable. The idea of blacklisting someone is pretty harsh. What I find a bit disheartening is the fact that Quo makes his desire clear, and also asks that you call out the type of quest you've made in the description, so he can avoid it; a reasonable request, and a way to avoid a down vote. He's not trashing anyone's dungeon that way. Yet people here are saying they will simply down vote what they feel is an exploitative quest, no matter what, just because they don't like it.
Just some early morning thoughts.
Proposing I can limit my content to the people it is intended for is not stopping the Quoforgeds of the world from playing content they are obviously more interested in,. It just stops them from selecting content accidentally they are obviously NOT interested in and giving it a crappy rating and effecting MY fun. I have no problem with Quoforgeds play style, if he/she wants to play that way more power to him/her but I don't want my enjoyment to be impacted by it.
Such a system would be redundant. Simply describe your quest clearly, and honestly, and I will steer clear.
While you seem like a decent person and I believe YOU would steer clear, you were just the one unluckily enough to be the one to post in the thread about it, so your name became the reference to the type (Sorry about that) I don't for a second think that there are not hordes of jackasses out there that will not be as respectful.
There will be a "tag" system for published content, so just tag it with "Roleplay", "Action", "dialog" and filter the results. This is pretty clearly present in several video demos and from screens shown at the GDC. So, no worries. Just be clear when you create your content.
Oh if that is the case that is cool. However in the videos I have seen I have seen no such thing, or it was so blurry that I couldn't read it. I would love a link that to a video that shows it if you have one.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
From what I understand this system is only for thsoe to be featured in the community spotlight. All other missions still get published just without the spotlight system.
The Neverwinter Foundry is superior than the STO foundry, it contains new technologies and features not found in its predecessor (yet). In order to view UGC that has not yet received the needed ratings to be visable to the public, one will need to flag themselves as wanting to see unrated UGC.
Besides, the Spotlight in STO does't work like that. You publish it to Cryptic like normal but then you have to actually flag it for review to be Spotlighted - and they then eventually test it and if they like it, they Spotlight it. You cannot edit a UGC while it is flagged to be reviewed for Spotlight nor while it is listed for Spotlight. You have to de-list it and then you will be able to edit it and if you want to re-list it, you have to go through the process again.
it really doesn't matter how many people you get to 'sign your pact'. There will be exploiters and they will get to a higher level faster. Then new comers will join the game. They will google something like "Level guides in NW" and they will find the exploits out for themselves and they too will join the exploit. Then you have a bunch of people who are max level and you are still raising your level and eventually you will hit max level and feel proud but no one will look at you different. You just took a harder path to the same goal. I'm not supporting exploiting. I level by myself in my own method that I find the most entertaining. I'm just shoving a little reality into your fantasy.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No one said anything about witch hunts or book burnings or anything close to that. Are you going to start calling me a <over zealous> or something now to inflame people to agree with you? Proposing I can limit my content to the people it is intended for is not stopping the Quoforgeds of the world from playing content they are obviously more interested in,. It just stops them from selecting content accidentally they are obviously NOT interested in and giving it a crappy rating and effecting MY fun. I have no problem with Quoforgeds play style, if he/she wants to play that way more power to him/her but I don't want my enjoyment to be impacted by it.
Nope not going to call anyone <over zealous>, but when a mob forms to make lists of undesirables, and to try to destroy, (vote down), things they don't like, it reminds me of certain events in history. Like witch hunts and book burnings (yes dramatic but trying to make a point). I have no problem with everyone playing how they want; I do have a problem with a group on an official forum trying to actually black list people. So take that however you like. Did you forget writing the high lighted bit below? We should all be able to play everyones content, and judge it accordingly. Sorry, I just hate to see these cliques forming before we've even played the game.
Originally Posted by keirkin View Post
You know I hope there is a system in The Foundry that allows you to put people like quorforged on an ignore list so they can't even pickup your adventures. It is sad that people might put a huge amount of work into making an excellent story and adventure just to have people like quorforged give your adventure a bad rating just because they can't grind your hard work for easy XP.
It would be cool to have a running list of people like this somewhere so all the serious adventure creators could just cut and paste to their ignore list.
Nope not going to call anyone <over zealous>, but when a mob forms to make lists of undesirables, and to try to destroy, (vote down), things they don't like, it reminds me of certain events in history.
Nope I didn't forget the highlighted writing below. If people are impacting my fun I should have the right to ignore them just like they have to right to ignore me and not play my adventures. I should be forced to let them ruin my fun? Should they be forced to play my adventures and ruin theirs then too? No they have a choice and I am asking for the same. I understand your fear of "black lists" but this is the internet and a game not a list that denies people work or limits where they can live.
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mokahMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
The entire idea of a group of people swearing an oath to fight exploits seems odd to me...isn't that the whole point of the voting and approval system? Granted, I think a community should work together, but pacts and secret hand shakes are not the way to do things. Better tools are.
If NWO gains a community of RPGers that like one sort of mission, then that is what you will see voted to the top. The fact that STO has lots of highly rated exploit missions says several things to me:
Cryptic did not create the foundry in such a way that makes these sorts of "exploit" mission difficult to make.
People that play STO like these sorts of missions, so they are voted highly.
Cryptic's voting system is either broken, allowing people to rise exploits higher than they should be or it is working as intended, and you should see #2.
I was under the impression that the NWO Foundry will not allow you to manipulate the loot given or even the direct difficulty of the creatures in encounters, so right there you have better anti-exploit tools than any pact of well meaning fans. As a builder, how would I build an exploitative mod under this system?
Just because one person views a mission as easy and an exploit doesn't mean that others think it is. As I've been told many times by people here, we shouldn't be telling each other how to play. What if a player likes simple missions? Is that an exploit?
I'd rather see those of you that have beta access testing the Foundry for ways to build exploitative missions and then thoroughly report that to Cryptic. That would be the most helpful thing you all could do for them and us.
I am not very optimistic unlike people here - exploiters outnumber us one to many.
Current exploiting system which needs a fix is defanging of monsters. In STO they make half walls to stop attacks of enemy ships so you kill them without facing any danger of getting hit.
Thus by destroying enemies or "defanged" enemies, you get free XP.
In NW it can be used as using melee enemies and making them at unreachable position and then kill them with ranged attacks.
I understand, I wont make purposeful exploits, but there is always the accidental ones I may run into. Anyway, if it isnt fun and/or is all exploits I will not give good ratings
...I don't plan on abusing the Foundry.I also plan on doing one "Kill ten rats in the basement" quest and be very secretive about its real content...
I knew it! You cute little naught drow! I knew it the day I saw that sig. Sadly, you are not the only one with this idea, but I will avoid that plot in your respect(though many others will not).
There will be a "tag" system for published content, so just tag it with "Roleplay", "Action", "dialog" and filter the results. This is pretty clearly present in several video demos and from screens shown at the GDC. So, no worries. Just be clear when you create your content.
Says who? No one said there will be any tag system. (also, lol - you should check a thread by zorbane to know "Just be clear" is not enough)
Cryptic did not create the foundry in such a way that makes these sorts of "exploit" mission difficult to make.
People that play STO like these sorts of missions, so they are voted highly.
Cryptic's voting system is either broken, allowing people to rise exploits higher than they should be or it is working as intended, and you should see #2.
....
This is an attempt to over-simplify a serious situation. Exploiters are the bane of many games and "measures" always have loopholes which are found because of law of numbers (and the fact that a game company has limited resources).
Cryptic should perma-ban accounts of exploiters like GW did. Even if they make new accounts, they will at least loose characters.
Also they should monitor gold transactions - if someone tries to transfer all gold somewhere else before the char is deleted - without trading anything, remove that gold from other account too.
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mokahMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I knew it! You cute little naught drow! I knew it the day I saw that sig. Sadly, you are not the only one with this idea, but I will avoid that plot in your respect(though many others will not).
I remeber the song - all that glitters is gold! only shooting stars break the mold!
Says who? No one said there will be any tag system. (also, lol - you should check a thread by zorbane to know "Just be clear" is not enough)
This is an attempt to over-simplify a serious situation. Exploiters are the bane of many games and "measures" always have loopholes which are found because of law of numbers (and the fact that a game company has limited resources).
Cryptic should perma-ban accounts of exploiters like GW did. Even if they make new accounts, they will at least loose characters.
Also they should monitor gold transactions - if someone tries to transfer all gold somewhere else before the char is deleted - without trading anything, remove that gold from other account too.
I know full well the impact of exploiters on MMOs especially in GW2. During testing in GW2 this was one of our major focuses and still is for ANet and the core testers. Accounts that get banned are people that go out of their way to exploit the game mechanics. No one is over simplifying anything. Better tools, game mechanics, and QA testing will do far more than a bunch of community torch bearers in preventing potential exploits.
Mokah - The Grumpy Strumpet
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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aavariusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I'm not comfortable with the mob defining what they think "exploiting" is. That's just an open door for crowd generated abuse. I've a lot more faith in the people at Cryptic to make a wise decision as stewards of the game to deal (or not deal) with "exploits" as it benefits the long term success of the game.
I'm not comfortable with the mob defining what they think "exploiting" is. That's just an open door for crowd generated abuse. I've a lot more faith in the people at Cryptic to make a wise decision as stewards of the game to deal (or not deal) with "exploits" as it benefits the long term success of the game.
I'll pass on the pitchforks and torches, thanks.
Then I guess you are ready to understand why am I so pessimistic.
- There is no point of mobs - they dont have numbers. It fails anyways - one way or the other.
- Cryptic solves it by removing foundry features limiting it slowly. It cripples the features of foundry.
- Because of number, exploiters escape action as it becomes too much of a bother to hunt all down.
There is just no optimist-ism here at all. So your 'faith' will end up reducing features of foundry. 'Mobs' as you say, or otherwise will fail. It is a losing battle against exploiters.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Then I guess you are ready to understand why am I so pessimistic.
- There is no point of mobs - they dont have numbers. It fails anyways - one way or the other.
- Cryptic solves it by removing foundry features limiting it slowly. It cripples the features of foundry.
- Because of number, exploiters escape action as it becomes too much of a bother to hunt all down.
There is just no optimist-ism here at all. So your 'faith' will end up reducing features of foundry. 'Mobs' as you say, or otherwise will fail. It is a losing battle against exploiters.
This is more or less the unfortunate truth about mmorpgs.
Simple fact is, exploiters DO ruin the game for everyone else, so it's not a matter of 'just let them play how they want', because time and time and time again, everyone else suffers due to exploiters- and generally the exploiters don't even lose whatever they gained through their exploiting.
It has to stop- if there was an 'exploiters server' just for people like them, where nothing they did every changed the game for me, I wouldn't care in the slightest. But- they ruin the economy, they ruin gearing, they ruin pvp, and ultimately when nerfs are thrown out they ruin game mechanics that legit players loved.
When it comes to exploits and griefers as well- so often I've heard people say 'just let the company handle it' 'ignore them and they will not bother you' 'just let them play how they want to'. What ends up happening? They spread- like maggots on a corpse, the moment you let them fester they just spread- I for one am not letting someone tell me to just let Cryptic handle it, stay calm and move along- no, that doesn't work, it's never worked.
Apathy and 'letting them play how they want to' filled my WoW RP server with people who hate RPers and just wanted to be there to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them off... and sure enough, over a year or two that server went from a wonderful place to play to one where all the RPers had grown tired of dealing with it and had gone into hiding, where what RP that did happen only happened in cliques and one or two taverns rather than everywhere.
If we do not stand our ground against exploiting this system for xp/loot, that's what will drown out the good foundry missions, and it'll inevitably cause exactly what I talked about above- wrecking the game for everyone else.
I'm sorry, but no, I don't feel like I have to 'let the exploiters play the way they want to' and be all accepting- since when did exploiting become a playstyle!? And stop with the 'well there's a fine line between exploiting and-' no, it's not a fine line, if someone gains five levels in an hour doing the same quest over and over and over- they're exploiting, and they know it.
Again, when exploiters have zero effect over me, I could care less what they do- but as long as exploiters ruin games for other people I would just love to see them vanish.
It's hard to put in automated systems to deal with such a thing- I think if there were reduced xp/loot gains from missions that could really help though, and appoint volunteer player foundry 'judges', a group Cryptic has some faith in, who when a couple of them agree on a mission's rating and it not being an exploit, it gets normal loot/xp. Or, have something automated- if say, on average a level 30 mission gives 10k xp/hour, and there's a mission giving 100k xp/hour, flag it as an exploit- if the author wants to dispute that, fine, have a mod/GM/dev or whatever look it over.
Keep data on foundry missions- if one takes on average half an hour to complete and people are dying on average 5 times per mission, flag it for bonuses for completion. If one takes 2 minutes and nobody dies- flag it for penalties in loot/xp. If missions are being done hundreds of times in a row by powerlevellers- take a look at it.
If we have a system that keeps data and flags the missions that look suspicious, we might just see a relatively exploit free system.
If instead we just sit back, twiddle our thumbs, hope people won't be exploiters and pray for the best- the game's going to suffer and suffer hard for legit players.
....
Keep data on foundry missions- if one takes on average half an hour to complete and people are dying on average 5 times per mission, flag it for bonuses for completion. If one takes 2 minutes and nobody dies- flag it for penalties in loot/xp. If missions are being done hundreds of times in a row by powerlevellers- take a look at it.
If we have a system that keeps data and flags the missions that look suspicious, we might just see a relatively exploit free system.
If instead we just sit back, twiddle our thumbs, hope people won't be exploiters and pray for the best- the game's going to suffer and suffer hard for legit players.
Good solutions, but they are still unable to wash my pessimism. They are too resource/time-consuming. Cryptic will not get much returns if they implement such a loot/XP system. Better way would be to get rid of loot/XP completely which devs will not agree with(nor will marketing guys).
One solution, which is a bit extreme, came to my mind earlier. That was to let foundry authors decide the level of PC at the start and end of their quests (i.e. fixed progression). So if they want you to be of LvL 1, you start at 1, LvL 20, start at lvl 20 etc. However devs won't agree with it either as then foundry will be used only to check high lvl content.
Maybe some guilds can advertise or put it in their rules that exploiting in any form is not allowed. Things like that may mitigate the exploiting a bit. Even if GMs could actively check into this issue on random basis - exploiting might become less popular - but will we have GMs after launch? I dont think other two subbed games have enough GMs, so I wonder if they will stay in f2p game.
If cryptic was strict, it might prove deterrent to exploiters reducing their numbers - but they have not issued any solid statement on it. I think, IP bans are no-no because of dynamic IPs. But account suspension/deletion should be minimum threat to exploiters. However, it again requires resources, especially in f2p games.
Hence only solution left is to clip the features of foundry to make them limited - to stop major exploiting points which become prevalent after launch. I can't say I blame cryptic to take that way out.
No matter what you do, as I say, its a losing battle.
There's never going to be a single solution to the problem. In the end, you have to do several things:
1) Establish clear policies.
2) Provide technical hoops through which people trying to violate those policies must jump, so they know they're straying.
3) Establish metrics for measuring compliance.
4) Provide instrumentation to gather those metrics.
5) Provide mechanisms for reporting violations that the instrumentation doesn't catch.
6) Enforce the policies when you receive those reports.
Just as with anything in any Compliance regime, you have to have both Prevention and Accountability, or you just turn violation into a routine.
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shiaikaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
I knew it! You cute little naught drow! I knew it the day I saw that sig. Sadly, you are not the only one with this idea, but I will avoid that plot in your respect(though many others will not).
That's very nice of you but I don't think that you should limit your creativity/plans because of me. The Foundry should be big enough for an alleged army of basements full of rats.
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amorraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Exploiting player made missions in City of Heroes was a common event. Often the only ‘nerfing’ that went on was the particular NPC(s) that were being abused got an experience cut. But this kind of change did not affect the story driven missions that involved the same creatures. This is probably because often the story driven missions used a variety of other NPCs to fight. While the story tellers (or Role-Players) may enjoy an engaging story driven plot, a foundry quest is not an exploit simply because it is a small room with a few NPCs to kill. It simply lacks an in-depth plot. A ‘fast and easy’ foundry quest is no more or less an exploit than a long story driven in-depth foundry quest.
Now, if it was a small room with the highest experience giving NPCs and there was some mechanic in place to make it impossible for these mobs to hit you (but they could be killed) then I would consider it an exploit.
I plan to make story driven quests. The best thing for the community to do is to have a thread somewhere in the Neverwinter forums that lists these story driven foundry quests. (Especially if we consider the fact that unrated quests apparently do not automatically show up.) Player B submits a new ‘story quest’ to the thread. If the quest gets x amount of complains for not being a true story driven quest then it is removed from the list and the author is informed.
The problem with that however is that people have a hard time keeping their opinion out of this kind of decision. If they do not like the story or plot will often say it does not have a plot or it is not good enough to be considered for the cut. But a community based thread of the story-driven quests worked well in City of Heroes… I do not see why it would not work for Neverwinter as well.
I will NOT waste my time to hunt down exploiting Foundry Quests. If I happen to find one, then yes I will give it a yellow flag if possible. But I would rather spend my time looking for the quality story-driven quests and rating them up.
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castagyreMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited February 2013
I would recommend more than just a thread somewhere for people to discuss and promote good Foundry arcs, but a dedicated section of the forums. Much in the same way SOE has for the Homeshow and Dungeonmaker on their EQ2 boards. A place where people interested in those systems can showcase what they've made, discuss the systems involved, and give focused feedback on it all.
In CoH I recall it becoming difficult after a while to sift through all of the arcs people had up, but thankfully I was in a channel with creative people who promoted theirs and others work so it saved me a headache.
Remembering Hanlon's Razor can save one a lot on aspirines.
That's very nice of you but I don't think that you should limit your creativity/plans because of me. The Foundry should be big enough for an alleged army of basements full of rats.
hmm... I guess I will sneak a few then - without telling anyone
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If the features they talked about in the Foundry videos pan out, where we can follow authors and they can blog about the quests and other authors they like, it'll be easy even if the star system gets corrupted. That's the weakness of the STO system; not having that easy ability to follow favorite authors or see who they like. Not having to go to the forums for that information will be a huge boon.
Active measures like they've begun taking in STO will help too; they just fixed a major exploit yesterday there.
From what I understand this system is only for thsoe to be featured in the community spotlight. All other missions still get published just without the spotlight system.
Character is what a man is in the dark
Maybe your post comes off a bit to ambiguous but let me say this. One of my mission outlines I am working on is tailored to the WoW raiding mindframe but from a solo to small group perspective. A good dungeon romp that takes roughly 1-2 hours to complete with multiple bosses. I have always wanted to see WoW introduce some sort of solo dungeons that followed the Blizzard raid structure.
What I am against is someone who creates a mission that is 1 room with 1-3 mobs and they are easily killable. Do you support missions like mine or like this? I too enjoy the combat but in order for the combat to be meaningful then the content needs to be meaningful. If you are just doing the easiest content for the most amount of XP per hour or loot per run then thats where I have an issue.
Character is what a man is in the dark
So... kind of like heroic 5-mans but soloable?
I remember this really cool raid in SWG on Mufasa (or whatever the heck that lava planet was named... I've repressed most of my memories of Star Wars episodes 1 - 3) where it was like this pitched battle where you and a bunch of people had to hold the line against waves of attackers while trying to keep the NPCs alive. And it wasn't like those NWN battles or that one BC-era WoW raid with Kil'jaeden, where a few groups of mobs spawned at a time, it was sheer pandemonium of dozens of mobs swarming over everyone and me, swinging that lightsaber like some bestial, raging caveman with a dinosaur bone, cutting them mobs down like it was the end of the world and all there was left to do was fight and die... it was... glorious...
If I don't see anyone make a "Hold the line" tag for the Foundry, I'm making one myself. And. it. will. be. MAGNIFICENT!
*Nods, slits wrists, blinks.*
"What do you mean this is not how you... swear a... blood..." Thump!
*Slowly bleeds out. A restless undead spirit rises, forever haunting would-be Foundry exploiters!*
[SIGPIC]Or am I?[/SIGPIC]
This loony is also known as @Derangement.
Yea basically this. Thinking of 5-7 bosses with plenty pf trash mobs in between.
Character is what a man is in the dark
If you can do a 1-2 hour quest chock full of interesting combat (with appropriate rewards given the challenge and time-investment), I'd definitely prefer that to the easy 1-room quest. Although I'm somewhat doubtful about the Foundry's capacity to create interesting boss encounters.
The main points of my original post were:
1) I enjoy combat in MMOs, and not other things like dialog boxes or being forced to run around from place to place.
2) Combat is likely to produce the most XP and loot, because that's primarily where the XP/Loot allocation in Foundry comes from, as far as I understand it.
3) Ergo, I'm most likely to support XP/Loot efficient quests, and likely to dislike non-efficient ones that emphasize non-combat gameplay (and would want some indication so I can avoid those quests)
So my opinion is rooted in enjoying combat to the exclusion of basically all other parts of MMOs, not just wanting an easy route to XP and loot (which, actually, "easy" is often not "efficient" when it comes to XP and loot, outside of exploits).
My point was to drive a distinction between exploitation for XP and loot, and simply focusing on the parts of the game that produce the XP and loot.
Basically, sounds like we both miscommunicated with each other. I thought that by rejecting my post, which was intended to justify combat-heavy missions in general, you were likewise rejecting combat-heavy missions and that by "deep and meaningful" you meant story/dialog/exploration heavy missions. But I apparently gave you the impression that I was speaking in favor of a specific kind of combat-heavy mission, designed to provide easy XP and loot, and thus you weren't rejecting combat-heavy missions in general.
Proposing I can limit my content to the people it is intended for is not stopping the Quoforgeds of the world from playing content they are obviously more interested in,. It just stops them from selecting content accidentally they are obviously NOT interested in and giving it a crappy rating and effecting MY fun. I have no problem with Quoforgeds play style, if he/she wants to play that way more power to him/her but I don't want my enjoyment to be impacted by it.
While you seem like a decent person and I believe YOU would steer clear, you were just the one unluckily enough to be the one to post in the thread about it, so your name became the reference to the type (Sorry about that)
Oh if that is the case that is cool. However in the videos I have seen I have seen no such thing, or it was so blurry that I couldn't read it. I would love a link that to a video that shows it if you have one.
Besides, the Spotlight in STO does't work like that. You publish it to Cryptic like normal but then you have to actually flag it for review to be Spotlighted - and they then eventually test it and if they like it, they Spotlight it. You cannot edit a UGC while it is flagged to be reviewed for Spotlight nor while it is listed for Spotlight. You have to de-list it and then you will be able to edit it and if you want to re-list it, you have to go through the process again.
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Nope not going to call anyone <over zealous>, but when a mob forms to make lists of undesirables, and to try to destroy, (vote down), things they don't like, it reminds me of certain events in history. Like witch hunts and book burnings (yes dramatic but trying to make a point). I have no problem with everyone playing how they want; I do have a problem with a group on an official forum trying to actually black list people. So take that however you like. Did you forget writing the high lighted bit below? We should all be able to play everyones content, and judge it accordingly. Sorry, I just hate to see these cliques forming before we've even played the game.
Nope I didn't forget the highlighted writing below. If people are impacting my fun I should have the right to ignore them just like they have to right to ignore me and not play my adventures. I should be forced to let them ruin my fun? Should they be forced to play my adventures and ruin theirs then too? No they have a choice and I am asking for the same. I understand your fear of "black lists" but this is the internet and a game not a list that denies people work or limits where they can live.
If NWO gains a community of RPGers that like one sort of mission, then that is what you will see voted to the top. The fact that STO has lots of highly rated exploit missions says several things to me:
I was under the impression that the NWO Foundry will not allow you to manipulate the loot given or even the direct difficulty of the creatures in encounters, so right there you have better anti-exploit tools than any pact of well meaning fans. As a builder, how would I build an exploitative mod under this system?
Just because one person views a mission as easy and an exploit doesn't mean that others think it is. As I've been told many times by people here, we shouldn't be telling each other how to play. What if a player likes simple missions? Is that an exploit?
I'd rather see those of you that have beta access testing the Foundry for ways to build exploitative missions and then thoroughly report that to Cryptic. That would be the most helpful thing you all could do for them and us.
I understand, I wont make purposeful exploits, but there is always the accidental ones I may run into. Anyway, if it isnt fun and/or is all exploits I will not give good ratings
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is an attempt to over-simplify a serious situation. Exploiters are the bane of many games and "measures" always have loopholes which are found because of law of numbers (and the fact that a game company has limited resources).
Cryptic should perma-ban accounts of exploiters like GW did. Even if they make new accounts, they will at least loose characters.
Also they should monitor gold transactions - if someone tries to transfer all gold somewhere else before the char is deleted - without trading anything, remove that gold from other account too.
I know full well the impact of exploiters on MMOs especially in GW2. During testing in GW2 this was one of our major focuses and still is for ANet and the core testers. Accounts that get banned are people that go out of their way to exploit the game mechanics. No one is over simplifying anything. Better tools, game mechanics, and QA testing will do far more than a bunch of community torch bearers in preventing potential exploits.
I'll pass on the pitchforks and torches, thanks.
Then I guess you are ready to understand why am I so pessimistic.
- There is no point of mobs - they dont have numbers. It fails anyways - one way or the other.
- Cryptic solves it by removing foundry features limiting it slowly. It cripples the features of foundry.
- Because of number, exploiters escape action as it becomes too much of a bother to hunt all down.
There is just no optimist-ism here at all. So your 'faith' will end up reducing features of foundry. 'Mobs' as you say, or otherwise will fail. It is a losing battle against exploiters.
This is more or less the unfortunate truth about mmorpgs.
Simple fact is, exploiters DO ruin the game for everyone else, so it's not a matter of 'just let them play how they want', because time and time and time again, everyone else suffers due to exploiters- and generally the exploiters don't even lose whatever they gained through their exploiting.
It has to stop- if there was an 'exploiters server' just for people like them, where nothing they did every changed the game for me, I wouldn't care in the slightest. But- they ruin the economy, they ruin gearing, they ruin pvp, and ultimately when nerfs are thrown out they ruin game mechanics that legit players loved.
When it comes to exploits and griefers as well- so often I've heard people say 'just let the company handle it' 'ignore them and they will not bother you' 'just let them play how they want to'. What ends up happening? They spread- like maggots on a corpse, the moment you let them fester they just spread- I for one am not letting someone tell me to just let Cryptic handle it, stay calm and move along- no, that doesn't work, it's never worked.
Apathy and 'letting them play how they want to' filled my WoW RP server with people who hate RPers and just wanted to be there to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> them off... and sure enough, over a year or two that server went from a wonderful place to play to one where all the RPers had grown tired of dealing with it and had gone into hiding, where what RP that did happen only happened in cliques and one or two taverns rather than everywhere.
If we do not stand our ground against exploiting this system for xp/loot, that's what will drown out the good foundry missions, and it'll inevitably cause exactly what I talked about above- wrecking the game for everyone else.
I'm sorry, but no, I don't feel like I have to 'let the exploiters play the way they want to' and be all accepting- since when did exploiting become a playstyle!? And stop with the 'well there's a fine line between exploiting and-' no, it's not a fine line, if someone gains five levels in an hour doing the same quest over and over and over- they're exploiting, and they know it.
Again, when exploiters have zero effect over me, I could care less what they do- but as long as exploiters ruin games for other people I would just love to see them vanish.
It's hard to put in automated systems to deal with such a thing- I think if there were reduced xp/loot gains from missions that could really help though, and appoint volunteer player foundry 'judges', a group Cryptic has some faith in, who when a couple of them agree on a mission's rating and it not being an exploit, it gets normal loot/xp. Or, have something automated- if say, on average a level 30 mission gives 10k xp/hour, and there's a mission giving 100k xp/hour, flag it as an exploit- if the author wants to dispute that, fine, have a mod/GM/dev or whatever look it over.
Keep data on foundry missions- if one takes on average half an hour to complete and people are dying on average 5 times per mission, flag it for bonuses for completion. If one takes 2 minutes and nobody dies- flag it for penalties in loot/xp. If missions are being done hundreds of times in a row by powerlevellers- take a look at it.
If we have a system that keeps data and flags the missions that look suspicious, we might just see a relatively exploit free system.
If instead we just sit back, twiddle our thumbs, hope people won't be exploiters and pray for the best- the game's going to suffer and suffer hard for legit players.
Good solutions, but they are still unable to wash my pessimism. They are too resource/time-consuming. Cryptic will not get much returns if they implement such a loot/XP system. Better way would be to get rid of loot/XP completely which devs will not agree with(nor will marketing guys).
One solution, which is a bit extreme, came to my mind earlier. That was to let foundry authors decide the level of PC at the start and end of their quests (i.e. fixed progression). So if they want you to be of LvL 1, you start at 1, LvL 20, start at lvl 20 etc. However devs won't agree with it either as then foundry will be used only to check high lvl content.
Maybe some guilds can advertise or put it in their rules that exploiting in any form is not allowed. Things like that may mitigate the exploiting a bit. Even if GMs could actively check into this issue on random basis - exploiting might become less popular - but will we have GMs after launch? I dont think other two subbed games have enough GMs, so I wonder if they will stay in f2p game.
If cryptic was strict, it might prove deterrent to exploiters reducing their numbers - but they have not issued any solid statement on it. I think, IP bans are no-no because of dynamic IPs. But account suspension/deletion should be minimum threat to exploiters. However, it again requires resources, especially in f2p games.
Hence only solution left is to clip the features of foundry to make them limited - to stop major exploiting points which become prevalent after launch. I can't say I blame cryptic to take that way out.
No matter what you do, as I say, its a losing battle.
1) Establish clear policies.
2) Provide technical hoops through which people trying to violate those policies must jump, so they know they're straying.
3) Establish metrics for measuring compliance.
4) Provide instrumentation to gather those metrics.
5) Provide mechanisms for reporting violations that the instrumentation doesn't catch.
6) Enforce the policies when you receive those reports.
Just as with anything in any Compliance regime, you have to have both Prevention and Accountability, or you just turn violation into a routine.
That's very nice of you but I don't think that you should limit your creativity/plans because of me. The Foundry should be big enough for an alleged army of basements full of rats.
Now, if it was a small room with the highest experience giving NPCs and there was some mechanic in place to make it impossible for these mobs to hit you (but they could be killed) then I would consider it an exploit.
I plan to make story driven quests. The best thing for the community to do is to have a thread somewhere in the Neverwinter forums that lists these story driven foundry quests. (Especially if we consider the fact that unrated quests apparently do not automatically show up.) Player B submits a new ‘story quest’ to the thread. If the quest gets x amount of complains for not being a true story driven quest then it is removed from the list and the author is informed.
The problem with that however is that people have a hard time keeping their opinion out of this kind of decision. If they do not like the story or plot will often say it does not have a plot or it is not good enough to be considered for the cut. But a community based thread of the story-driven quests worked well in City of Heroes… I do not see why it would not work for Neverwinter as well.
I will NOT waste my time to hunt down exploiting Foundry Quests. If I happen to find one, then yes I will give it a yellow flag if possible. But I would rather spend my time looking for the quality story-driven quests and rating them up.
In CoH I recall it becoming difficult after a while to sift through all of the arcs people had up, but thankfully I was in a channel with creative people who promoted theirs and others work so it saved me a headache.