We can't make PVP maps. We must have an objective in the storyboard to publish the mission. All players must complete that same objective.
Sorry I meant pen and paper by pnp.
I will prepare a small writeup on this and send it to cerebus to explain more clearly what I mean. I will probably add a few examples on how pen and paper D&D campaigns can faithfully be implemented with tools at disposal.
EDIT: And I don't mean any disrespect and its cool what you did, but it is wrong when you say non-linearity is not possible. It undermines the real potential and capability of foundry.
EDIT2: The writeup will take a few days though depending on things,
I'm pretty sure that the foundry will spawn some amazing content for the game, that is why the developers need to focus on more classes,more races,more spells the content that only they can provide.
The dungeoning and incredible adventures will soon follow mostly made by the fans.
Anyone remember the huge amount of content in nwn 1 ??? Some of it was better then the official campaigns
I will prepare a small writeup on this and send it to cerebus to explain more clearly what I mean. I will probably add a few examples on how pen and paper D&D campaigns can faithfully be implemented with tools at disposal.
EDIT: And I don't mean any disrespect and its cool what you did, but it is wrong when you say non-linearity is not possible. It undermines the real potential and capability of foundry.
EDIT2: The writeup will take a few days though depending on things,
I look forward to it I'm sure.
What it comes down to is, the illusion of Non Linearity is possible to make, not all that difficult when you know your way around.
That illusion comes from the skill and design of the author, not from the engine. It doesn't naturally lend itself to making those sorts of missions, at least not yet. One day STO (so I'm sure NW will too) will have True Open Social zones and such. But right now, we don't.
The engine is bound by it's needing at least 1 Objective (even if it is the final objective). So the engine is linear, the storyboard is linear, what you do to get to that point may be non linear, to a fashion, but the end is linear.. I think that's what we've been trying to say :P However I suppose if we were to get really deep.. then it's all linear.. because to get to the reward point, there have to be fixed actions the player must undertake... alas.. the issue with the space time continuum and logic :P
I'm pretty sure that the foundry will spawn some amazing content for the game, that is why the developers need to focus on more classes,more races,more spells the content that only they can provide.
The dungeoning and incredible adventures will soon follow mostly made by the fans.
Anyone remember the huge amount of content in nwn 1 ??? Some of it was better then the official campaigns
Absolutely there was. The crux of my dilemma though is as a modding community we will not be able to make or add custom content which will hamper things. At least for me. However I am still going to give NW a chance I just hate the thought of being limited with my creations based on what the Foundry will or will not provide. And that includes world travel. I do not like the thought of just being limited to Neverwinter and its surrounds exclusively. I do understand though whether I like it or not.
I will prepare a small writeup on this and send it to cerebus to explain more clearly what I mean. I will probably add a few examples on how pen and paper D&D campaigns can faithfully be implemented with tools at disposal.
EDIT: And I don't mean any disrespect and its cool what you did, but it is wrong when you say non-linearity is not possible. It undermines the real potential and capability of foundry.
EDIT2: The writeup will take a few days though depending on things,
Sorry if I misunderstood the pnp. There is only one way to "really" have a branching mission, and that is with a branching dialogue at the very end of the storyboard. Otherwise, there are lots of little things, like letting the player decide what drink to order at a bar, whether or not to heal a victim, or which path to take to get to the same place. Some choices can have consequences, like more mobs appear. Characters can say different things depending on complex triggers.
But the player always goes from map A --> map B, and the only way to change that would be a really, really complicated trigger setup where either one custom interior loads or a different custom interior loads. That would be a nightmare to build with the Foundry. I know, because I had to build one set over another in a mission. It could be done in STO, but I kind of expect that it can't be done in NWN, since you guys will have an interior builder. You probably won't be building sets up in the sky using random props that don't fit together.
Maybe you guys can tie together triggers and teleports somehow.
And you can't alter something on one map, based on triggers that happen on a different map.
Basically, there are all kinds of cool tricks you can do with triggers in STO's Foundry, but the system as it often forces you to use it is: Go to map A, do objective(s), go to map B, do objective(s).
I guarantee that if you make a mission like you describe, you'll get a stream of one-star reviews: "Didn't tell me where to go" and "I couldn't get to mountain! A boulder is in the way!"
Again, let me reiterate something, while you can do all this 'off books' as it were. You are putting an absolutely large amount of faith in people in regards to things like READING what you tell them and comprehending. the sad experience I can relate is that when you give a player an objective that is not spelled out, they will many times get confused (especially if english is not their primary language) and in the end, blame you, the writer for their issues with the mission.
It is a problem that I dont know will see a solution anytime soon, but this is a major issue with an open zone concept. And unfortunately you cannot remove people from the equation to solve it
...
It is a problem that I dont know will see a solution anytime soon, but this is a major issue with an open zone concept. And unfortunately you cannot remove people from the equation to solve it
A very valid concern which can be overcome by using a technique used by old rpgs. The dialogs stays the same till you do something and then it changes to reflect what you did with every NPC.
As for star ratings, I am of the opinion that those who follow "stars" can never make a quest which will satisfy their own creative needs. One should make something what one is proud of. For we are not paid and this is not work - but a hobby.
The crux of my dilemma though is as a modding community we will not be able to make or add custom content which will hamper things.
I would say that the Foundry is for a "fan-fiction" community that loves NW, not a modding community. Some of us are "builders" though. We can re-purpose some of the props in incredible ways.
But, yes, you are completely dependent upon the tools and props provided by the devs. You will never create geometry, texture anything, or modify the game in any way.
Absolutely there was. The crux of my dilemma though is as a modding community we will not be able to make or add custom content which will hamper things. At least for me. However I am still going to give NW a chance I just hate the thought of being limited with my creations based on what the Foundry will or will not provide. And that includes world travel. I do not like the thought of just being limited to Neverwinter and its surrounds exclusively. I do understand though whether I like it or not.
You could pretend the player is moving to a different area in the world. For example go to a tavern talk to a sailor. Next map is an interior map where you're on a ship and you talk to NPCs. Next maps take place on some continent far far away. All these maps are ones that you build yourself.
Sorry if I misunderstood the pnp. There is only one way to "really" have a branching mission, and that is with a branching dialogue at the very end of the storyboard. Otherwise, there are lots of little things, like letting the player decide what drink to order at a bar, whether or not to heal a victim, or which path to take to get to the same place. Some choices can have consequences, like more mobs appear. Characters can say different things depending on complex triggers.
But the player always goes from map A --> map B, and the only way to change that would be a really, really complicated trigger setup where either one custom interior loads or a different custom interior loads. That would be a nightmare to build with the Foundry. I know, because I had to build one set over another in a mission. It could be done in STO, but I kind of expect that it can't be done in NWN, since you guys will have an interior builder. You probably won't be building sets up in the sky using random props that don't fit together.
Maybe you guys can tie together triggers and teleports somehow.
And you can't alter something on one map, based on triggers that happen on a different map.
Basically, there are all kinds of cool tricks you can do with triggers in STO's Foundry, but the system as it often forces you to use it is: Go to map A, do objective(s), go to map B, do objective(s).
I guarantee that if you make a mission like you describe, you'll get a stream of one-star reviews: "Didn't tell me where to go" and "I couldn't get to mountain! A boulder is in the way!"
Just read it. Branching a map is different thing than open-world mission and non-linear mission. If I had to use branching, I would do it by changinga few events in the end. That quest cannot be put into campaign. The last person would tell the players which mission to load based on "things" user did.
A very easy example of non-linear mission would be this:-
You wake up in your room. You go talk to mom. Mom tells you to sort out ht emess in room which is bed, your stuff. You also have to bath, brush your teeths and get ready for school.
A very small and easy to understand example. What you simply do is, put no objective at all in story. You just put invisible wall at the door so you can't open the door this that object is hidden.
To unhide that object, you need to complete all tasks which is to talk to mom - which will then allow you to sort out the mess (not before you talk to mom).
You can then, or before talking to mom, go and bath and get ready.
This is a non-linear, open world mission in simplest sense. Next what you do is, if you want to make any sub-quest (e.g. bathing) optional, remove it from the invisible wall. Whetehr you bath or not does not matter.
Next if you want that either you talk to mom, or bath - the invisible wall should get hidden; what you do is put walls in parallel. Two half walls covering the door. Either half wall gone, you can leave.
This is a very very crude way to do it, but I think you get the right idea.
EDIT:
You nest it down, many many times, make more than one of these in the same map and then connect them with and, or and not relationships - and you got a complex quest which is not talk kill talk quest.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CRUDEST WAY TO DO IT:-
Using part of one quest in other can be solved, e.g. you get a number after doing a sub quest - number is 4357.
Then you go to next map. Next map, NPC asks first place? 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0? You know 4. Then again and again.
Unless you do the side quest, you can never solve that dialog tree.
Once you solve the dialog tree, use it as a trigger to do something else and thus retain what happened in previous map.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I guarantee that if you make a mission like you describe, you'll get a stream of one-star reviews: "Didn't tell me where to go" and "I couldn't get to mountain! A boulder is in the way!"
You are right, no doubt about it. I expect to get the backlash. But I don't care as long as I made the map for that small audience I care about. My objective here is to make a good map I take pride in, not a five star map.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am sure you get the ideas above as you are very intellgent, but I will purify the crude ideas I presented in my text which I send to cerebus.
A very easy example of non-linear mission would be this:-
Or you could just put each object interact inside of a "complete all" objective. That would actually give players instructions on which 3 tasks they need to do any order they want. It's still go here ---> do A, B, and C in any order ---> go there.
That is your version of non-linear? A complete all style of gameplay using triggers. Or force the player to explore to find clues to solve a puzzle. They can find the clues in any order.
The puzzle doesn't change, depending on a player's choice. The player has no choice but to do what is necessary to take down the invisible wall.
linear: You are forcing a player to do set of tasks, followed by another set of tasks. You just have a little bit of freedom in the order in which they have to do it.
In your example, the player only has a choice to do something when the choice is irrelevant to progressing. Now maybe if you add on it, like if a player doesn't take a bath, then different npcs or dialogue prompts might have a "you're stinky" option.
Sure, you can make a complete all type style of gameplay where the player chooses to go NESW in their desired order. But that's like kill 4/4 in whatever order you want. Just make sure you kill 4/4 or the next part story will not progress.
Or you could just put each object interact inside of a "complete all" objective. That would actually give players instructions on which 3 tasks they need to do any order they want. It's still go here ---> do A, B, and C in any order ---> go there.
That is your version of non-linear? A complete all style of gameplay using triggers. Or force the player to explore to find clues to solve a puzzle. They can find the clues in any order....
Great! You are really an expert if you get that! It feels happy that a person can understand you when you just tell him something instead the need to show him
You can, but then you cannot use triggers. If included in an objective, the trigger would only be objective complete - not component complete. And we do not want that. The component complete is the key to non linearity.
Now use your brain with this much hint I have given and amaze me again by being able to understand
EDIT:
Also I said, it is a crude example. It is not a non-linear map until you nest it many many times over. With objectives, you cannot nest it in or format - only and format. (Hope you get this part too, its a bit cryptic and incomplete but there is a purpose to it - the incomplete information is there for a reason)
EDIT2:
If you decide to give up, let me know where you reached with your thinking and I will drop more hints for you - if you reach there by your own thinking, you can perhaps see things differently and find a few more things. So it is good your are attempting to understand that. And I am not BS you, am actually happy that you are making an attempt at it.
EDIT3:
Or you can decide to give up and wait for game to be released and till then take my word on faith that non-linearity is possible, and play it in my maps in the game.
EDIT4: Ok hint - what is the most important difference between an objective and non-objective? How can it be used? Why should it be used? In how many ways can it be joined? How many ways an objective containing logic can be joined? What is the main difference between two? What are various possible ways to use it? (enough spoilers)
Great! You are really an expert if you get that! It feels happy that a person can understand you when you just tell him something instead the need to show him
You can, but then you cannot use triggers. If included in an objective, the trigger would only be objective complete - not component complete. And we do not want that. The component complete is the key to non linearity.
Now use your brain with this much hint I have given and amaze me again by being able to understand
EDIT:
Also I said, it is a crude example. It is not a non-linear map until you nest it many many times over. With objectives, you cannot nest it in or format - only and format. (Hope you get this part too, its a bit cryptic and incomplete but there is a purpose to it - the incomplete information is there for a reason)
EDIT2:
If you decide to give up, let me know where you reached with your thinking and I will drop more hints for you - if you reach there by your own thinking, you can perhaps see things differently and find a few more things. So it is good your are attempting to understand that. And I am not BS you, am actually happy that you are making an attempt at it.
You can nest it as much as you want. sub-quests, mini-games, optional objectives using triggers, npcs with changing default text, etc. etc. It's linear if it doesn't branch. You're just adding extra tasks like talking to villagers. The player may not have to do one thing, but they will have to do another to advance a story.
So a player can choose to explore, flirt with some peasant, kick a few chickens in whatever order they want. This to you is a non-linear story? Are you at least going to change the default texts of npcs if the player kicks the chickens?
Can you just get to the point and tell me what you are doing that is different than what I'm doing here, here, and here. Last one is Galactrix.
You can nest it as much as you want. sub-quests, mini-games, optional objectives using triggers, npcs with changing default text, etc. etc. It's linear if it doesn't branch. You're just adding extra tasks like talking to villagers. The player may not have to do one thing, but they will have to do another to advance a story.
So a player can choose to explore, flirt with some peasant, kick a few chickens in whatever order they want. This to you is a non-linear story? Are you at least going to change the default texts of npcs if the player kicks the chickens?
Alright, anyways, I'm going to stop talking to you now. I'm obviously too dumb to comprehend your brilliant trigger workarounds.
I am sorry if you feel I am BS you, but you were very close to the different possibilities you arrived by yourself. It saddens me you are giving up when so close. I think its your false pride which is making you blind to any new ideas.
As for the questions:-
So a player can choose to explore, flirt with some peasant, kick a few chickens in whatever order they want. This to you is a non-linear story? Are you at least going to change the default texts of npcs if the player kicks the chickens?
A player can :-
Choose to explore in any order, do mission quests in any order.
Player can choose to kick or not kick chickens.
Player can choose to either kick chickens or pet them.
Player may choose not even to visit the village at all and do those things.
Changing default text is there to keep track and tell people about it.
At least keep an eye on the quest named "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase" if you are giving up. I have nothing to say except its a waste that you gave up here.
EDIT:
If you can stop trying to be the godfather and know-it-all of foundry then perhaps you can arrive at the conclusion. Otherwise it seems to me that your progress as a creator is stunted.
So next time you say non-linear missions are not possible in foundry, you better add that it is your uninformed opinion and not know-it-all fact please.
A player can :-
Choose to explore in any order, do mission quests in any order.
Player can choose to kick or not kick chickens.
Player can choose to either kick chickens or pet them.
Player may choose not even to visit the village at all and do those things.
Changing default text is there to keep track and tell people about it.
At least keep an eye on the quest named "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase" if you are giving up.
Yes, I know all of this. I have made tutorials teaching people how to do these things. What is your point?
You can do all of these things, but it doesn't create a non-linear mission, unless you go to extreme measures to fake it.
In the end, you're still having to fake it, when the objective in the storyboard has to be complete and you cannot set the invisible wall guarding the loot box to an either or trigger, based on the branching that happens through triggers alone.
You are only left with that one scenario of having two invis walls where one side or the other disappears. That can be done if there are only two paths and you don't get very complex.
That one type of branching can work, but a lot of other times the branching is too complex for it to work.
So yes, there is one very specific type of work around that can result in a complete mess of incoherent directions, confusing choices, and random invisible walls that do not go away and make your mission frustrating if the player doesn't know that the other half of the entrance isn't blocked with an invisible wall.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2013
I am sorry but I need to ask everyone to take a step back from this particular topic of Linear Missions in Foundry. Right now, there just isn't enough publicly available information to address this concern, so for the time being let's find a different topic of discussion for the Foundry that isn't under an NDA.
I'm temporarily closing this thread until we've had a chance to review everything here. I suspect to be able to reopen this later tonight, I apologize for any inconvenience.
Update: After further review and extra eyes, it has been determined that this thread is mostly discussing the STO Foundry and per the Rules of Conduct, this is an Off Topic thread. Please just keep in mind that there really isn't a whole lot we can discuss about the NWO Foundry that hasn't been released yet.
I am confidant that we're getting closer to being able to release more information however, so please be patient folks and reserve assumptions about NWO Foundry until we get some more public information released.
Thanks for the update here. I probably sound like a fool because I don't know anything about NW toolset. I'm justing going off what I know about STO, and I would kindly request that responses do not violate the NDA. Sorry if I'm misleading anyone based off of limited info.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Thanks for the update here. I probably sound like a fool because I don't know anything about NW toolset. I'm justing going off what I know about STO, and I would kindly request that responses do not violate the NDA. Sorry if I'm misleading anyone based off of limited info.
No worries!
Something I can tell you is that the NWO Foundry is the next generation of the STO Foundry. It is a bit more advanced and has incorporated new Technologies not found in STO's. This is called Simplygon, here's a post about the press release:http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?15401
I guess I'm a little confused on what the difference between non-linear quests and branching paths are (if there is one). I thought non-linear gameplay was just playing quests/doing objectives in any order you wish to achieve one final goal, while branching paths ultimately meant multiple endings.
After reading gillrmn's examples, I have to agree that I might get confused when the next mission objective on the screen says "get past the rock", and then have 6 different sets of green arrows pointing everywhere except the rock.
And if one of the options has you destroying a town, how do you keep that consistent through successive questlines? And what if someone else in the party decided to take one path while you did another to progress the story? Haha! Just pretend I'm new here.....
I guess I'm a little confused on what the difference between non-linear quests and branching paths are (if there is one). I thought non-linear gameplay was just playing quests/doing objectives in any order you wish to achieve one final goal, while branching paths ultimately meant multiple endings.
After reading gillrmn's examples, I have to agree that I might get confused when the next mission objective on the screen says "get past the rock", and then have 6 different sets of green arrows pointing everywhere except the rock.
And if one of the options has you destroying a town, how do you keep that consistent through successive questlines? And what if someone else in the party decided to take one path while you did another to progress the story? Haha! Just pretend I'm new here.....
The first one done would be considered.
About non-linearity I would simply say that nintendo's game Final Fantasy was non-linear and open world, right? You even had sub-quests which you can do but may just skip and go on ahead.
It should be possible to recreate that game using foundry.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Okay, one thing I wanted to do, was make a huge dungeon complex, that could not be done in a single, or even several play sessions. The problems I foresee are that, people want small bites of adventure they can do in an hour or so, and that it is unlikely you can "camp" in a mission, and log back in the next day in the same place. As a work around I plan on making several smaller dungeon crawls that can be done in a casual play session. My big question is; can I make completing a mission a requirement to open another mission?
Example: I have a dungeon that ends at a stone slab, (exit) which is really where the next dungeon will start. Getting to the slab and examining it flags you for entry into part 2, which you can enter at that time or later. If you fail the mission, or don't examine the slab, you will not be flagged for the next section. Basically a keying process to the next "chapter".
Is it possible? Can I hide missions from people until they actually complete the required previous missions?
I don't know the answers regarding NW. It might have added functionality.
I remember reading somewhere that NW's Foundry allows a player to load into the map that they were last on. In STO's version, if a player exits a map, then he or she has to go back through each map to get back to the spot where they left. Each map is completed though, so it's usually just a bunch of loading screens until you get back to the last spot.
On your big question, that is not possible in STO. There was a lot of talk over the years about being able to "favorite" an author. That is a feature they'd "like to see" TM in STO. Maybe there is info in the links the mod posted. It might be in your toolset. I don't know.
A lot of STO authors make series of "My Mission, part 1" and "My Mission, part 2." They can be played by the players out of order, unless maybe part 1 is for a lower level and part 2 is for a higher level. I'm not sure how your game works or whether different enemies in your Foundry have different level restrictions. Even then, your Vice Wizards (or whatever they are) can still play your missions out of order, if it's like STO's foundry.
Regarding play-time: We're having a big issue with rewards, because it's set up where everyone gets the same reward if the mission is at least 15 minutes long. You can imagine what that has done. The 3 hour missions don't get played, and now the listing is full of quick grinders. According to old dev posts by Mapolis somewhere in this forum, your rewards system is completely different and actually based on some kind of timer mechanic. So, in theory, a longer mission gives out better rewards.
But those posts were a while back, so it might be different.
The more I read about the limitations of the cans and cant's related to modding here the less I am inclined to do so. I think at this point I will just play the game even though my heart lies as a builder. I'm just not feeling the idea that I am restricted to adventure building only. I prefer building persistent worlds.
The more I read about the limitations of the cans and cant's related to modding here the less I am inclined to do so. I think at this point I will just play the game even though my heart lies as a builder. I'm just not feeling the idea that I am restricted to adventure building only. I prefer building persistent worlds.
Well, it's not a modding tool. You don't really modify anything, unless we're talking about using the character creator to create characters or combining two different props to make something look different. The Foundry (at least for STO) provides a way to tell a story set in the universe of the game. You create the justification for a dungeon quest, or you do some kind of DD version of Romeo and Juliet. You do not mod, skin, texture, alter, or edit anything that is in the game.
As far as I know, it is not like previous tools associated with this franchise. In many ways, it is far more limited technically. But in other ways, it lets you tell stories in a way that you couldn't really do as well with actual mod tools. At least, that is my guess.
Comments
Sorry I meant pen and paper by pnp.
I will prepare a small writeup on this and send it to cerebus to explain more clearly what I mean. I will probably add a few examples on how pen and paper D&D campaigns can faithfully be implemented with tools at disposal.
EDIT: And I don't mean any disrespect and its cool what you did, but it is wrong when you say non-linearity is not possible. It undermines the real potential and capability of foundry.
EDIT2: The writeup will take a few days though depending on things,
The dungeoning and incredible adventures will soon follow mostly made by the fans.
Anyone remember the huge amount of content in nwn 1 ??? Some of it was better then the official campaigns
I look forward to it I'm sure.
What it comes down to is, the illusion of Non Linearity is possible to make, not all that difficult when you know your way around.
That illusion comes from the skill and design of the author, not from the engine. It doesn't naturally lend itself to making those sorts of missions, at least not yet. One day STO (so I'm sure NW will too) will have True Open Social zones and such. But right now, we don't.
The engine is bound by it's needing at least 1 Objective (even if it is the final objective). So the engine is linear, the storyboard is linear, what you do to get to that point may be non linear, to a fashion, but the end is linear.. I think that's what we've been trying to say :P However I suppose if we were to get really deep.. then it's all linear.. because to get to the reward point, there have to be fixed actions the player must undertake... alas.. the issue with the space time continuum and logic :P
Absolutely there was. The crux of my dilemma though is as a modding community we will not be able to make or add custom content which will hamper things. At least for me. However I am still going to give NW a chance I just hate the thought of being limited with my creations based on what the Foundry will or will not provide. And that includes world travel. I do not like the thought of just being limited to Neverwinter and its surrounds exclusively. I do understand though whether I like it or not.
Sorry if I misunderstood the pnp. There is only one way to "really" have a branching mission, and that is with a branching dialogue at the very end of the storyboard. Otherwise, there are lots of little things, like letting the player decide what drink to order at a bar, whether or not to heal a victim, or which path to take to get to the same place. Some choices can have consequences, like more mobs appear. Characters can say different things depending on complex triggers.
But the player always goes from map A --> map B, and the only way to change that would be a really, really complicated trigger setup where either one custom interior loads or a different custom interior loads. That would be a nightmare to build with the Foundry. I know, because I had to build one set over another in a mission. It could be done in STO, but I kind of expect that it can't be done in NWN, since you guys will have an interior builder. You probably won't be building sets up in the sky using random props that don't fit together.
Maybe you guys can tie together triggers and teleports somehow.
And you can't alter something on one map, based on triggers that happen on a different map.
Basically, there are all kinds of cool tricks you can do with triggers in STO's Foundry, but the system as it often forces you to use it is: Go to map A, do objective(s), go to map B, do objective(s).
I guarantee that if you make a mission like you describe, you'll get a stream of one-star reviews: "Didn't tell me where to go" and "I couldn't get to mountain! A boulder is in the way!"
It is a problem that I dont know will see a solution anytime soon, but this is a major issue with an open zone concept. And unfortunately you cannot remove people from the equation to solve it
A very valid concern which can be overcome by using a technique used by old rpgs. The dialogs stays the same till you do something and then it changes to reflect what you did with every NPC.
As for star ratings, I am of the opinion that those who follow "stars" can never make a quest which will satisfy their own creative needs. One should make something what one is proud of. For we are not paid and this is not work - but a hobby.
I would say that the Foundry is for a "fan-fiction" community that loves NW, not a modding community. Some of us are "builders" though. We can re-purpose some of the props in incredible ways.
But, yes, you are completely dependent upon the tools and props provided by the devs. You will never create geometry, texture anything, or modify the game in any way.
...if NW's Foundry is similar to STO's, I mean.
You could pretend the player is moving to a different area in the world. For example go to a tavern talk to a sailor. Next map is an interior map where you're on a ship and you talk to NPCs. Next maps take place on some continent far far away. All these maps are ones that you build yourself.
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - [WIP] Commander Rihan
Just read it. Branching a map is different thing than open-world mission and non-linear mission. If I had to use branching, I would do it by changinga few events in the end. That quest cannot be put into campaign. The last person would tell the players which mission to load based on "things" user did.
A very easy example of non-linear mission would be this:-
You wake up in your room. You go talk to mom. Mom tells you to sort out ht emess in room which is bed, your stuff. You also have to bath, brush your teeths and get ready for school.
A very small and easy to understand example. What you simply do is, put no objective at all in story. You just put invisible wall at the door so you can't open the door this that object is hidden.
To unhide that object, you need to complete all tasks which is to talk to mom - which will then allow you to sort out the mess (not before you talk to mom).
You can then, or before talking to mom, go and bath and get ready.
This is a non-linear, open world mission in simplest sense. Next what you do is, if you want to make any sub-quest (e.g. bathing) optional, remove it from the invisible wall. Whetehr you bath or not does not matter.
Next if you want that either you talk to mom, or bath - the invisible wall should get hidden; what you do is put walls in parallel. Two half walls covering the door. Either half wall gone, you can leave.
This is a very very crude way to do it, but I think you get the right idea.
EDIT:
You nest it down, many many times, make more than one of these in the same map and then connect them with and, or and not relationships - and you got a complex quest which is not talk kill talk quest.
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CRUDEST WAY TO DO IT:-
Using part of one quest in other can be solved, e.g. you get a number after doing a sub quest - number is 4357.
Then you go to next map. Next map, NPC asks first place? 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0? You know 4. Then again and again.
Unless you do the side quest, you can never solve that dialog tree.
Once you solve the dialog tree, use it as a trigger to do something else and thus retain what happened in previous map.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are right, no doubt about it. I expect to get the backlash. But I don't care as long as I made the map for that small audience I care about. My objective here is to make a good map I take pride in, not a five star map.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am sure you get the ideas above as you are very intellgent, but I will purify the crude ideas I presented in my text which I send to cerebus.
Or you could just put each object interact inside of a "complete all" objective. That would actually give players instructions on which 3 tasks they need to do any order they want. It's still go here ---> do A, B, and C in any order ---> go there.
That is your version of non-linear? A complete all style of gameplay using triggers. Or force the player to explore to find clues to solve a puzzle. They can find the clues in any order.
The puzzle doesn't change, depending on a player's choice. The player has no choice but to do what is necessary to take down the invisible wall.
linear: You are forcing a player to do set of tasks, followed by another set of tasks. You just have a little bit of freedom in the order in which they have to do it.
In your example, the player only has a choice to do something when the choice is irrelevant to progressing. Now maybe if you add on it, like if a player doesn't take a bath, then different npcs or dialogue prompts might have a "you're stinky" option.
Sure, you can make a complete all type style of gameplay where the player chooses to go NESW in their desired order. But that's like kill 4/4 in whatever order you want. Just make sure you kill 4/4 or the next part story will not progress.
Great! You are really an expert if you get that! It feels happy that a person can understand you when you just tell him something instead the need to show him
You can, but then you cannot use triggers. If included in an objective, the trigger would only be objective complete - not component complete. And we do not want that. The component complete is the key to non linearity.
Now use your brain with this much hint I have given and amaze me again by being able to understand
EDIT:
Also I said, it is a crude example. It is not a non-linear map until you nest it many many times over. With objectives, you cannot nest it in or format - only and format. (Hope you get this part too, its a bit cryptic and incomplete but there is a purpose to it - the incomplete information is there for a reason)
EDIT2:
If you decide to give up, let me know where you reached with your thinking and I will drop more hints for you
EDIT3:
Or you can decide to give up and wait for game to be released and till then take my word on faith that non-linearity is possible, and play it in my maps in the game.
EDIT4: Ok hint - what is the most important difference between an objective and non-objective? How can it be used? Why should it be used? In how many ways can it be joined? How many ways an objective containing logic can be joined? What is the main difference between two? What are various possible ways to use it? (enough spoilers)
You can nest it as much as you want. sub-quests, mini-games, optional objectives using triggers, npcs with changing default text, etc. etc. It's linear if it doesn't branch. You're just adding extra tasks like talking to villagers. The player may not have to do one thing, but they will have to do another to advance a story.
So a player can choose to explore, flirt with some peasant, kick a few chickens in whatever order they want. This to you is a non-linear story? Are you at least going to change the default texts of npcs if the player kicks the chickens?
Can you just get to the point and tell me what you are doing that is different than what I'm doing here, here, and here. Last one is Galactrix.
I am sorry if you feel I am BS you, but you were very close to the different possibilities you arrived by yourself. It saddens me you are giving up when so close. I think its your false pride which is making you blind to any new ideas.
As for the questions:-
A player can :-
Choose to explore in any order, do mission quests in any order.
Player can choose to kick or not kick chickens.
Player can choose to either kick chickens or pet them.
Player may choose not even to visit the village at all and do those things.
Changing default text is there to keep track and tell people about it.
At least keep an eye on the quest named "The Wild Moon(mote) Chase" if you are giving up. I have nothing to say except its a waste that you gave up here.
EDIT:
If you can stop trying to be the godfather and know-it-all of foundry then perhaps you can arrive at the conclusion. Otherwise it seems to me that your progress as a creator is stunted.
So next time you say non-linear missions are not possible in foundry, you better add that it is your uninformed opinion and not know-it-all fact please.
Yes, I know all of this. I have made tutorials teaching people how to do these things. What is your point?
You can do all of these things, but it doesn't create a non-linear mission, unless you go to extreme measures to fake it.
In the end, you're still having to fake it, when the objective in the storyboard has to be complete and you cannot set the invisible wall guarding the loot box to an either or trigger, based on the branching that happens through triggers alone.
You are only left with that one scenario of having two invis walls where one side or the other disappears. That can be done if there are only two paths and you don't get very complex.
That one type of branching can work, but a lot of other times the branching is too complex for it to work.
So yes, there is one very specific type of work around that can result in a complete mess of incoherent directions, confusing choices, and random invisible walls that do not go away and make your mission frustrating if the player doesn't know that the other half of the entrance isn't blocked with an invisible wall.
I'm temporarily closing this thread until we've had a chance to review everything here. I suspect to be able to reopen this later tonight, I apologize for any inconvenience.
Update: After further review and extra eyes, it has been determined that this thread is mostly discussing the STO Foundry and per the Rules of Conduct, this is an Off Topic thread. Please just keep in mind that there really isn't a whole lot we can discuss about the NWO Foundry that hasn't been released yet.
I am confidant that we're getting closer to being able to release more information however, so please be patient folks and reserve assumptions about NWO Foundry until we get some more public information released.
Thanks,
Zebular, PWE Community Moderator
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Something I can tell you is that the NWO Foundry is the next generation of the STO Foundry. It is a bit more advanced and has incorporated new Technologies not found in STO's. This is called Simplygon, here's a post about the press release: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?15401
Here's the official (not much) info on the NWO Foundry:
http://nw.perfectworld.com/about/foundry
Here's some official news:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?10561
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?10281
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?10611
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
After reading gillrmn's examples, I have to agree that I might get confused when the next mission objective on the screen says "get past the rock", and then have 6 different sets of green arrows pointing everywhere except the rock.
And if one of the options has you destroying a town, how do you keep that consistent through successive questlines? And what if someone else in the party decided to take one path while you did another to progress the story? Haha! Just pretend I'm new here.....
The first one done would be considered.
About non-linearity I would simply say that nintendo's game Final Fantasy was non-linear and open world, right? You even had sub-quests which you can do but may just skip and go on ahead.
It should be possible to recreate that game using foundry.
Example: I have a dungeon that ends at a stone slab, (exit) which is really where the next dungeon will start. Getting to the slab and examining it flags you for entry into part 2, which you can enter at that time or later. If you fail the mission, or don't examine the slab, you will not be flagged for the next section. Basically a keying process to the next "chapter".
Is it possible? Can I hide missions from people until they actually complete the required previous missions?
Edit: From an STO perspective of course.
I remember reading somewhere that NW's Foundry allows a player to load into the map that they were last on. In STO's version, if a player exits a map, then he or she has to go back through each map to get back to the spot where they left. Each map is completed though, so it's usually just a bunch of loading screens until you get back to the last spot.
On your big question, that is not possible in STO. There was a lot of talk over the years about being able to "favorite" an author. That is a feature they'd "like to see" TM in STO. Maybe there is info in the links the mod posted. It might be in your toolset. I don't know.
A lot of STO authors make series of "My Mission, part 1" and "My Mission, part 2." They can be played by the players out of order, unless maybe part 1 is for a lower level and part 2 is for a higher level. I'm not sure how your game works or whether different enemies in your Foundry have different level restrictions. Even then, your Vice Wizards (or whatever they are) can still play your missions out of order, if it's like STO's foundry.
Regarding play-time: We're having a big issue with rewards, because it's set up where everyone gets the same reward if the mission is at least 15 minutes long. You can imagine what that has done. The 3 hour missions don't get played, and now the listing is full of quick grinders. According to old dev posts by Mapolis somewhere in this forum, your rewards system is completely different and actually based on some kind of timer mechanic. So, in theory, a longer mission gives out better rewards.
But those posts were a while back, so it might be different.
Well, it's not a modding tool. You don't really modify anything, unless we're talking about using the character creator to create characters or combining two different props to make something look different. The Foundry (at least for STO) provides a way to tell a story set in the universe of the game. You create the justification for a dungeon quest, or you do some kind of DD version of Romeo and Juliet. You do not mod, skin, texture, alter, or edit anything that is in the game.
As far as I know, it is not like previous tools associated with this franchise. In many ways, it is far more limited technically. But in other ways, it lets you tell stories in a way that you couldn't really do as well with actual mod tools. At least, that is my guess.