zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited December 2012
Our Goddess is not "Dead," but this is how mere mortals perceive her current state. As such, she (and other recently "dead" gods) should also be included in any Deity selection process and game lore. Indeed, the Realms as we know it would not be the the Realms as we know it if it were not for the constant interaction from the Gods, ranging of the minute to full on holy wars between faiths. This should be reflected through out the game, for "The Gods" are one of the major things that make Forgotten Realms stand apart from all other D&D Campaign Settings.
I have read a lot of your post Truthseeker and I suspect you know just as much if not more than I do. A few times I have pulled out the books to verify something you said, and 99% of the time you are right on the hard core facts.
Part of this is probably a matter of prospective. Being "old" I have always been more Greyhawk Focused. Yes all my recent PnP games are still in Greyhawk. The World of Greyhawk gods are much fewer in number, more static, more divine, and have less overlap. Forgotten Realms makes my head hurt, but I realize this is where Neverwinter is set. I will of course be hoping to find a Greyhawk serve if such a thing is possible, but I get the feeling the foundary will not support that.
As for the foundry being able to make a "Greyhawk" mission or campaign, I do not see why one would be limited from doing such. It is well known that the Realms serves as a hub to most all the other Campaign Setting Worlds, so travel to and from is relatively easy. I know I plan on having some missions be in the Planes as well as even Realmspace and other Worlds also, if allowed. I think, or hope really, that we're only going to be limited by our own imagination really.
What I don't think we will be able to do is to copy a Legally Published D&D Adventure by WotC, I think they want us to stick to things we have created on our own. So, remaking the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure might be off the list of things we can do, but that doesn't mean we couldn't make a "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" adventure with new plots and storylines.
I have read a lot of your post Truthseeker and I suspect you know just as much if not more than I do. A few times I have pulled out the books to verify something you said, and 99% of the time you are right on the hard core facts.
Part of this is probably a matter of prospective. Being "old" I have always been more Greyhawk Focused. Yes all my recent PnP games are still in Greyhawk. The World of Greyhawk gods are much fewer in number, more static, more divine, and have less overlap. Forgotten Realms makes my head hurt, but I realize this is where Neverwinter is set. I will of course be hoping to find a Greyhawk serve if such a thing is possible, but I get the feeling the foundary will not support that.
Our Goddess is not "Dead," but this is how mere mortals perceive her current state. As such, she (and other recently "dead" gods) should also be included in any Deity selection process and game lore. Indeed, the Realms as we know it would not be the the Realms as we know it if it were not for the constant interaction from the Gods, ranging of the minute to full on holy wars between faiths. This should be reflected through out the game, for "The Gods" are one of the major things that make Forgotten Realms stand apart from all other D&D Campaign Settings.
As for the foundry being able to make a "Greyhawk" mission or campaign, I do not see why one would be limited from doing such. It is well known that the Realms serves as a hub to most all the other Campaign Setting Worlds, so travel to and from is relatively easy. I know I plan on having some missions be in the Planes as well as even Realmspace and other Worlds also, if allowed. I think, or hope really, that we're only going to be limited by our own imagination really.
What I don't think we will be able to do is to copy a Legally Published D&D Adventure by WotC, I think they want us to stick to things we have created on our own. So, remaking the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure might be off the list of things we can do, but that doesn't mean we couldn't make a "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" adventure with new plots and storylines.
While outside servers are not going to be done, persistent wolds might be done. Also, you can make in an instance whatever world you can imagine with the images and pieces provided, and I know for a fact they have "special effect" ones in there so making "a portal" to Greyhawk is certainly doable.
Oh, and I better edit my post and put dead in quotes. She does have the habit of returning...we're waiting m'lady.
odinsfist1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
I would actually like to see Deity choice be not overpowering but make effects in the game. It would be awesome to get bonuses from missions where your protecting your characters religious shrines or take negative effects for being in a hostile deities shrine if your from a rival religion. Just my two cents.
If brute force didn't work, you didn't use enough brute force!
I've always wondered why people feel the need for the game to have some special selection for a deity. I would prefer that remain an element associated with personal roleplay rather than something the game lets you classify yourself as.
In real life, I am a Christian. Compared to others, my faith does not give me "stat buffs". I still remain human and my base stats are the same. So what is the point to choosing a Deity in a game? A means to get some stat bonuses? How about this. What are the qualities of followers of whatever deity you want your character to also follow? If you know the answer to that question, ROLEPLAY your character as conforming to those qualities. The game does not have to hand you everything by adjusting stats through buffs and debuffs. Back in the day when I used to have time to do the PnP RPG thing, My character was what I defined him as by my choices, far more than by his stats.
RPG stands for ROLE playing game, not ROLL playing game.
As a mod wonderfully points out later in this thread, the Deities of the Forgotten Realms are an inherent part of the campaign setting. As this game incorporates the fantasy/religious aspects of that setting (divine magic, classes, story elements, etc.), it's not really that hard to figure out why some people would want to embed a deity selection into their character from the get-go... is it? Personally, I love the idea of deity (domain/portfolio) specific abilities for clerics of different gods. From what I've seen of 4E, that's unlikely to happen, and so be it. However, I would also appreciate the option of adding a deity on my PC sheet when not playing a divine based class, for the purpose of adding flavour. While it's true that players can just write religious affiliation into their bios (which I would probably do anyway), when I am constructing a character and thinking up all the bits'n'bobs that I think will make the PC distinctive, I want to have those things featured prominently on my character sheet. Besides, a little 'Deity' field won't take up much space, so why not have one?
While I realise that the above doesn't correlate with religious devotees in the real world, RPG stands for ROLE playing game, not REALITY playing game
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
As a mod wonderfully points out later in this thread, the Deities of the Forgotten Realms are an inherent part of the campaign setting. As this game incorporates the fantasy/religious aspects of that setting (divine magic, classes, story elements, etc.), it's not really that hard to figure out why some people would want to embed a deity selection into their character from the get-go... is it? Personally, I love the idea of deity (domain/portfolio) specific abilities for clerics of different gods. From what I've seen of 4E, that's unlikely to happen, and so be it. However, I would also appreciate the option of adding a deity on my PC sheet when not playing a divine based class, for the purpose of adding flavour. While it's true that players can just write religious affiliation into their bios (which I would probably do anyway), when I am constructing a character and thinking up all the bits'n'bobs that I think will make the PC distinctive, I want to have those things featured prominently on my character sheet. Besides, a little 'Deity' field won't take up much space, so why not have one?
While I realise that the above doesn't correlate with religious devotees in the real world, RPG stands for ROLE playing game, not REALITY playing game
Actually, don't let the name fool you, but domain worship as much as specific god powers is done in the cleric subclass "Warpriest" an Essentials released class I think.
That's great! That'll give the cleric players (at higher levels, at least) yet more room to customise their character and align him/her with their theistic imaginings. I fully admit to being a 4E noob and have never played a 4E character to such lofty heights. Regardless, I'm totally looking forward to this game.
Forgotten Realms is all about the Deities. It's one of the things that sets the Campaign Setting apart from others, the Gods. Being able to choose a Deity is a must for me in any D&D Game really. I'd like to see a deity selection and it should have a purpose as well.
Almost all the factions in the Setting are also rooted in the Gods and their will and mischief. I didn't miss not having a religion selection in Eberron (DDO), simply because both I am not as familiar with the Setting as I am with the Realms, and two their Gods are not as active in the affairs of Mortals as the Gods are in the Realms. As an MMO, I will surely be longing for the element of the Gods in my beloved and glorious Forgotten Realms. Indeed.
+100000
So much WIN!
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Actually, don't let the name fool you, but domain worship as much as specific god powers is done in the cleric subclass "Warpriest" an Essentials released class I think.
Thats nice. That said I want to worship a deity from Forgotten Realms. For a Warpriest for example Tempus(God Of War!) would be a logical choice. I play very rarely pen and paper rolegames, but when I do it is GURPS fantasy rolepaying and my character is a Warpriest!
I like Chaotic Good alignment. Follow law? Could not care less, but do good deeds yeah that should be done though you don't need to be even near perfect in morals. In a harsh world many Chaotic good heroes fight against the forces of Evil.
Forgotten Realms is all about the Deities. It's one of the things that sets the Campaign Setting apart from others, the Gods. Being able to choose a Deity is a must for me in any D&D Game really. I'd like to see a deity selection and it should have a purpose as well.
Almost all the factions in the Setting are also rooted in the Gods and their will and mischief. I didn't miss not having a religion selection in Eberron (DDO), simply because both I am not as familiar with the Setting as I am with the Realms, and two their Gods are not as active in the affairs of Mortals as the Gods are in the Realms. As an MMO, I will surely be longing for the element of the Gods in my beloved and glorious Forgotten Realms. Indeed.
Eberron's religions have a bit more verisimilitude in that the gods never actually appear themselves (though worshippers will tell you otherwise), and there are a lot of non-deity specific religions. Rather than D&D's typically standard henotheist setup, Eberron opts to have a wide variety of religions, such as the pseudo-panentheistic dragon faith "The Prophecy" and even a few monolatrist faiths (such as the Blood of Vol, which is sort of like undead Buddhism) faiths, not to mention all the druid sects that range from animistic to pantheist (the Gatekeepers are very pantheist, in that they believe Eberron is a god and that Xoriat is trying to kill it, and Eberron needs them to help defend him). It is very important to remember that faith still intrudes on every aspect of life, even if "gods" don't.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
One important thing to remember in a discussion such as this one is that Deities grant powers to their followers in D&D. That's inherrant to the core of D&D, it's what comprises the entity of Divine Magic.
This aspect can't be compared to the real world where miracles can be argued as both coincidence and divine. Please don't argue that by the way, I am merely saying that for every miracle there is somebody there to say coincidence or unproven.
In D&D, even if gods do not walk the lands, there are still powers above the average human being which are made plain to see to every person. There's no such thing as atheism in D&D though there are certainly those who detest or fear the gods. There are those who doubt in the small rural villages which never see divine power but they doubt only which they have never seen. These same communities also doubt magic exists and we can obviously not hold either doubt against them.
So when we consider why deities should give powers in D&D, it's quite simple. They take an active role in giving powers to those which follow them. Deities aren't simply a roleplayed aspect of D&D, they are living entities which actively effect daily life in the realms.
Feel whatever you want about real religions but understand they aren't comparable to the fictional Deities within the realms. They're not simply a part of who people are, their a true companion who not only have power but use it in visible ways.
One important thing to remember in a discussion such as this one is that Deities grant powers to their followers in D&D. That's inherrant to the core of D&D, it's what comprises the entity of Divine Magic.
This aspect can't be compared to the real world where miracles can be argued as both coincidence and divine. Please don't argue that by the way, I am merely saying that for every miracle there is somebody there to say coincidence or unproven.
In D&D, even if gods do not walk the lands, there are still powers above the average human being which are made plain to see to every person. There's no such thing as atheism in D&D though there are certainly those who detest or fear the gods. There are those who doubt in the small rural villages which never see divine power but they doubt only which they have never seen. These same communities also doubt magic exists and we can obviously not hold either doubt against them.
There's this guy here to see you, says he's from the most cosmopolitan city in the multiverse, says he's from the Athar and would like to have a word with you. >_>
Even in canon D&D, a cleric can get powers without a deity, they just have to believe in something. I've always wanted to play a cleric who believed that in geometry, the secrets of divinity were revealed.
Of course, in FR, there are these guys that tool around calling themselves "gods" and impressing the tyranny of themselves on the landscape and handing out superpowers to random, irresponsible wackamoles called "chosen" who seem to do nothing but create strife. :P
I wonder what dev's reading this thread think? <g>. I like the idea of having deities in the game though. Even if they aren't included at launch, perhaps we can plead our case for having them added later? It would be totally cool to have followers of different deities have minor differences in the graphics of their deity given powers, but that might be asking a bit much! :P
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
And don't forget those who claim the gods are noting but super-powerful beings claiming to be "gods." So atheism can exist. Whether it's true or not I'll leave to the debaters. Now the wall of the Faithless has been destroyed who can say where one goes when you don't follow a "deity?"
And don't forget those who claim the gods are noting but super-powerful beings claiming to be "gods." So atheism can exist. Whether it's true or not I'll leave to the debaters. Now the wall of the Faithless has been destroyed who can say where one goes when you don't follow a "deity?"
Making a HUGE effort to not comment real world. Fail partly. I am not atheist in any contest. My ancestors were Vikings. I only mention it as example. Vikings believed in early days before that many gods existed and that brave Warrriors got to Viking Heaven.
ON TO TOPIC:
It is up to WOTC decide/answer what happens to the faithless. I have seen the TV series Supernatural. In that series one human is sent to hell after death and that persons soul is tortured and tormented by Demons.
Ok wall of faithless don't exist, but many Evil Demons and some Evil Gods still exist. So yeah you can still have punishment and reward. I really don't know what it means for the faithless, but it could mean they souls run in fear and try to flee from chasing Demons until catched. Demons are pretty intelligent and wicked. I would not be surprised if they figure a way to trap captured souls.
You are not atheist if you believe in many gods. Not all religions focus so much on World creation. If a Cleric would say to a Pantheon or in a prayer to his God such things that:
A. I don't believe you are a God.
B. I simply believe you are a powerful being that grants powers.
I would rate such a Cleric really really stupid. In R.A Salvatores books there are Priestess of Loth that looses the favor of Loth and can not cast Clerical spells. There are also examples of people getting killed by the will of Gods in DD world so I would not mess with the Gods. The DD gods might affect your life and you are not atheist if you believe in them according to my book.
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chaddiwickerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Making a HUGE effort to not comment real world. Fail partly. I am not atheist in any contest. My ancestors were Vikings. I only mention it as example. Vikings believed in early days before that many gods existed and that brave Warrriors got to Viking Heaven.
ON TO TOPIC:
It is up to WOTC decide/answer what happens to the faithless. I have seen the TV series Supernatural. In that series one human is sent to hell after death and that persons soul is tortured and tormented by Demons.
Ok wall of faithless don't exist, but many Evil Demons and some Evil Gods still exist. So yeah you can still have punishment and reward. I really don't know what it means for the faithless, but it could mean they souls run in fear and try to flee from chasing Demons until catched. Demons are pretty intelligent and wicked. I would not be surprised if they figure a way to trap captured souls.
You are not atheist if you believe in many gods. Not all religions focus so much on World creation. If a Cleric would say to a Pantheon or in a prayer to his God such things that:
A. I don't believe you are a God.
B. I simply believe you are a powerful being that grants powers.
I would rate such a Cleric really really stupid. In R.A Salvatores books there are Priestess of Loth that looses the favor of Loth and can not cast Clerical spells. There are also examples of people getting killed by the will of Gods in DD world so I would not mess with the Gods. The DD gods might affect your life and you are not atheist if you believe in them according to my book.
It makes sense not to call someone atheist in the world of D&D. Unless, I guess, someone claims that the gods are just powerful mortals. Otherwise, it is very clear that gods exist in D&D so it would be more appropriate to refer to someone who does not claim allegiance to a god a "non-follower" instead of a non-believer, I think. Or "forsaken", when a god has abandoned a follower for whatever reason.
I do hope that following a deity will be a choice in the game. I would expect that deities may provide some bonuses or spells, so it might be a choice that comes with disadvantages, but it seems appropriate in a role-playing game to allow players to make that choice.
It makes sense not to call someone atheist in the world of D&D. Unless, I guess, someone claims that the gods are just powerful mortals. Otherwise, it is very clear that gods exist in D&D so it would be more appropriate to refer to someone who does not claim allegiance to a god a "non-follower" instead of a non-believer, I think. Or "forsaken", when a god has abandoned a follower for whatever reason.
I do hope that following a deity will be a choice in the game. I would expect that deities may provide some bonuses or spells, so it might be a choice that comes with disadvantages, but it seems appropriate in a role-playing game to allow players to make that choice.
If a church(in Neverwinter) would ask me to join me their church then I would ask them what God do you worship?
A. If the answer would be Sorry we do not follow any god! We simply believe believe that Gods don't exist and they are just powerful mortal beings and that being good and upholding law is the right thing to do!
then: I would laugh... and say you are not a church in my eyes. Go away unbelievers and I don't give a HAMSTER about law and society! Lol.
B. If the answer would be... we follow many different gods ... some of us believe in Tempus others believe in Mystra...
then:
Well sounds good, but I find it strange that you call yourself a church? Would it not better to call you an organization? Like the Harpers for example. I might join your organization, but I don't consider it to be one church. Of course I understand if you got different Temples within your huge building. You are an organisation that allows members from many churches in my eyes. That is understandable I have heard of people who even worship a couple of gods.
C. If the answer would be.... we follow the (Evil) God Cyric!
then:
I would back away slowly and not turn my back from them... and say I respect your God. Currently though I don't feel that your God is the right path to follow. I respectfully leave now.
D. If answer would be... we follow Tempus... or some other god that I like
then I would say yeah why not join your church!
There and my character is Chaotic Good. It does not mean that I steal from rich and give money to the poor. However I don't care about the law so much, but fighting evil is a good thing.
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chaddiwickerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If a church(in Neverwinter) would ask me to join me their church then I would ask them what God do you worship?
A. If the answer would be Sorry we do not follow any god! We simply believe believe that Gods don't exist they are just powerful mortal beings that being good and upholding law is the right thing to do!
then:
I would laugh... and say you are not a church in my eyes. Go away unbelievers I don't give a HAMSTER about law and society! Lol.
B. If the answer would be... we follow many different gods ... some of us believe in Tempus others believe in Mystra...
then:
Well sounds good but I find it strange that you call yourself a church? Would it not better to call you an organization? Like the Harpers for example. I might join your organization but I don't consider to be one church. Of course I understand if you got different Temples within your huge building. You are an organisation that allows members from many churches in my eyes. That is understandable I have heard of people who even worship a couple of gods.
C. If the answer would be.... we follow the Evil God Cyric.
then:
I would back away slowly and not turn my back from then... and say I respect your God. Currently though I don't feel that your God is the right path to follow. I respectfully leave now.
D. If answer would be... we follow Tempus... or some other god that I like
then I would say yeah why not join your church!
There and my character is Chaotic Good. It does not mean that I steal from rich and give money to the poor. I don't care about the law so much but doing good is a good thing.
Chaotic Good is pretty much the alignment my characters always were/are.
The two words here that I think get mixed up are "follow" and "believe". You can believe that a god exists, but not follow them. In this case, you are not an athiest, you are a non-follower or maybe a godless/heretic/heathen in the sense that you choose to follow no god.
Since gods have shown themselves in D&D, it doesn't make sense to me that someone wouldn't believe they exist. There is evidence of it. They are plainly referred to in the handbooks for goodness sake. To me, it would be ridiculous to deny their existence, though I could find honor in a player choosing not to follow any god since gods can be capricious, evil or arrogant. Following many gods, or pantheism, also makes sense because more than one god has made their existence known and more than one god may have characteristics or beliefs that appeal to someone.
Thinking about it though, maybe a character has not seen a god for themselves and under those circumstances, does not believe in the existence of a god or gods. So, I guess I change my mind. Someone can call themselves an atheist in D&D. At least until they encounter one.
No one knows what happens to soul of faithless in D&D. They do go to Kelemvor, after that - who knows. Only those who are very very very faithful to their gods (and true to Dogma) and serve them well go to their realms as an angel or Exarch[like Obould or Fzoul].
Alignment is greater than gods themselves. So if you are lawful good, you automatically serve Bahamut and Bahamut automatically helps you(being a dragon of honor etc.) even though you may follow dogma of other god.
Only those who do deal with devils can get 'trapped' by devils. After they die, if they fear death they may end up making the deal for a tenday when they are in world. Kelemvor says there is no need to be afraid and to believe that nothing bad happens to good, bad or faithless in Fugue plane.
Lastly you do not get power from deity but clergy. So even if the deity likes you very much, if the church doesn't - you don't get powers. You have to advance in ranks of the clergy doing their things.
p.s. all in role play. If real life was referred(or expected) anywhere, no I don't talk about rl here.
It makes sense not to call someone atheist in the world of D&D. Unless, I guess, someone claims that the gods are just powerful mortals. Otherwise, it is very clear that gods exist in D&D so it would be more appropriate to refer to someone who does not claim allegiance to a god a "non-follower" instead of a non-believer, I think. Or "forsaken", when a god has abandoned a follower for whatever reason.
I do hope that following a deity will be a choice in the game. I would expect that deities may provide some bonuses or spells, so it might be a choice that comes with disadvantages, but it seems appropriate in a role-playing game to allow players to make that choice.
Yep the first D&D I played was the white box 3 volume set The religious aspect for clerics was purposely undescribed, A couple years later I met Gary at Gencon and asked him about it, he said he didn't want to bog down the world with religions because the real world had enough of them already; two years after that you saw the introduction of deities and TSR quickly became obsessed with them, it got much worse when Tracy Hickman joined TSR because he was a once missionary.
Being an agnostic in real life and generally turned off by religions of any kind part of me really liked the old D&D better; the worlds didn't have all this divine influence and that's still how I run my campaign. I am a king by your own hand Robert E Howard/Fritz Liber kind of fantasy buff and wotc is the exact opposite....it's like watching a FRP version of the 700 club, currently WoTC is obsessed with the nine hells and demons....I sorta hope they get that out of their systems and move on to more secular adventure hooks.
Pathfinder also isn't as laden with gods as D&D...oh yeah Sean K Reynolds wrote the really horrible Gods and Magic, but not too many people pay attention to anything he produces these days.
The benefit to have gods (again nothing in common with rl religion) is that FR has a strong mythology like greeks or Romans.
Almost nobody believes in greek gods anymore but everyone agrees they make some **** good stories. Infact most of modern games try to establish their version of these stories - be it god of war or many such games.
FR is about gods, and it is popular because of that reason. Although some changes were certainly made as one quoted below, however such changes were deemed necessary to make the setting popular eventually - for example, not many would have liked the idea of a beast being goddess of magic and would have wanted a human goddess - hence Mystra was the right choice instead of Lurue even when "Unicorns approach pure...", them being born of magic etc. legends are quite well known.
I would say they did well in making the Realms one of the most popular settings of D&D.
"Originally, Lurue WAS magic-before Julia Martin added the name "Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn-and also spew silver fire from it-and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of "Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical. We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the "patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear” folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra’s daughters all share, and ‘wild talent’ innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives.
The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now."
The benefit to have gods (again nothing in common with rl religion) is that FR has a strong mythology like greeks or Romans.
Almost nobody believes in greek gods anymore but everyone agrees they make some **** good stories. Infact most of modern games try to establish their version of these stories - be it god of war or many such games.
FR is about gods, and it is popular because of that reason. Although some changes were certainly made as one quoted below, however such changes were deemed necessary to make the setting popular eventually - for example, not many would have liked the idea of a beast being goddess of magic and would have wanted a human goddess - hence Mystra was the right choice instead of Lurue even when "Unicorns approach pure...", them being born of magic etc. legends are quite well known.
I would say they did well in making the Realms one of the most popular settings of D&D.
Meh Ed's version of the Realms...isn't so deity based and quite honestly in the first box set there wasn't a lot about deities all that came later and the FR boxed set sold like wildfire, I know a lot of people love their deities but it's a bit of a misnomer to say that FR is popular due to that reason alone and in fact many people get turned off when they use gods to Mary Sue everything in the realms.
Ed's world is vast and intricate it was meant to be so much more than just a sandbox for gods.
This is a fantasy world where we believe in all sorts of supernatural beings such as dragons, liches, hordes of undead, orcs, goblins, and assorted fey creatures. So why not include deities? The existence of Deities helps explain the world that Neverwinter resides in. It is fantasy afterall and to enjoy it you must suspend your disbelief to a certain extent. This allows you play your character as religious or non-religious as you want. I have played characters that cover the spectrum in my PnP campaigns, and that makes for some nice RP sometimes. There are instances where the involvement of deities is important, and times where they have no impact at all. The Foundry will let you make a campaign that includes them or not, as for the main game they should include the deities to some extent as they are part of the flavour of the setting that we all presumably enjoy.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
I'm thinking of worshiping Mimics. They keep revealing themselves a something amazing from something ordinary, and keep coming back even after seeing them dead before. Now all they have to do is start granting US miracles too
I'm thinking of worshiping Mimics. They keep revealing themselves a something amazing from something ordinary, and keep coming back even after seeing them dead before. Now all they have to do is start granting US miracles too
Meh I'll just stick to worshiping Tavern maids with large rac......um personalities.
i think they're missing out on some really creative opportunities here by not having deity choices. A great example of this is with powers and abilities. Maybe hitting a land mark rank would give you a bonus or a passive based on that ability. STO right now has a system in place right now called the reputation system. The whole thing is a horrible grind fest that is poorly implemented and expensive in terms of time and resource, BUT.... With proper implementation would be perfect for a game like this to earn favor with a deity or two. Basically by running missions with certain enemies you gain reputation with that faction (in sto it's romulans and the anti borg force, here it could be your specific deity) hitting so many points gets you a level allowing you to unlock powers and bonuses to stats as well as offering you options in the store. What Cryptic is doing wrong with it is making you grind for the level, then grind for the option to unlock store items only to make you grind to pay for the items you just unlocked. It's all very costly and unnecessary, but if they take out a lot of the expenses as well as the unneeded steps it would be a great feature.
By keeping it simple and making it level based instead of money based, they could add a lot of great abilities and such.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited December 2012
I think Cryptic has said that they currently don't have a faction reputation system, but certainly having factions for deities and their churches could be just as interesting if not more than factions with political or military alliances.
It takes a whole lot of planning to implement a system like that tho...
....Even in canon D&D, a cleric can get powers without a deity, they just have to believe in something. I've always wanted to play a cleric who believed that in geometry, the secrets of divinity were revealed...
Yep good catch Ed Greenwwoods article "Down to earth divinity" in Dragon #54 did a lot to shape how I view Deities in D&D, this was before the Realms went god crazy,(hell it was way before the 1st box set) but by the 2nd edition they had completely changed Deneir and made him yet another rigid highly structured god instead of the minor background entity he was intended to be.
Personally I still run my campaign the way Ed ran his in Dragon #54 Gods are background noise and the game is about you the hero.
Comments
As for the foundry being able to make a "Greyhawk" mission or campaign, I do not see why one would be limited from doing such. It is well known that the Realms serves as a hub to most all the other Campaign Setting Worlds, so travel to and from is relatively easy. I know I plan on having some missions be in the Planes as well as even Realmspace and other Worlds also, if allowed. I think, or hope really, that we're only going to be limited by our own imagination really.
What I don't think we will be able to do is to copy a Legally Published D&D Adventure by WotC, I think they want us to stick to things we have created on our own. So, remaking the Temple of Elemental Evil adventure might be off the list of things we can do, but that doesn't mean we couldn't make a "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" adventure with new plots and storylines.
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While outside servers are not going to be done, persistent wolds might be done. Also, you can make in an instance whatever world you can imagine with the images and pieces provided, and I know for a fact they have "special effect" ones in there so making "a portal" to Greyhawk is certainly doable.
Oh, and I better edit my post and put dead in quotes. She does have the habit of returning...we're waiting m'lady.
As a mod wonderfully points out later in this thread, the Deities of the Forgotten Realms are an inherent part of the campaign setting. As this game incorporates the fantasy/religious aspects of that setting (divine magic, classes, story elements, etc.), it's not really that hard to figure out why some people would want to embed a deity selection into their character from the get-go... is it? Personally, I love the idea of deity (domain/portfolio) specific abilities for clerics of different gods. From what I've seen of 4E, that's unlikely to happen, and so be it. However, I would also appreciate the option of adding a deity on my PC sheet when not playing a divine based class, for the purpose of adding flavour. While it's true that players can just write religious affiliation into their bios (which I would probably do anyway), when I am constructing a character and thinking up all the bits'n'bobs that I think will make the PC distinctive, I want to have those things featured prominently on my character sheet. Besides, a little 'Deity' field won't take up much space, so why not have one?
While I realise that the above doesn't correlate with religious devotees in the real world, RPG stands for ROLE playing game, not REALITY playing game
Actually, don't let the name fool you, but domain worship as much as specific god powers is done in the cleric subclass "Warpriest" an Essentials released class I think.
+100000
So much WIN!
I like Chaotic Good alignment. Follow law? Could not care less, but do good deeds yeah that should be done though you don't need to be even near perfect in morals. In a harsh world many Chaotic good heroes fight against the forces of Evil.
Eberron's religions have a bit more verisimilitude in that the gods never actually appear themselves (though worshippers will tell you otherwise), and there are a lot of non-deity specific religions. Rather than D&D's typically standard henotheist setup, Eberron opts to have a wide variety of religions, such as the pseudo-panentheistic dragon faith "The Prophecy" and even a few monolatrist faiths (such as the Blood of Vol, which is sort of like undead Buddhism) faiths, not to mention all the druid sects that range from animistic to pantheist (the Gatekeepers are very pantheist, in that they believe Eberron is a god and that Xoriat is trying to kill it, and Eberron needs them to help defend him). It is very important to remember that faith still intrudes on every aspect of life, even if "gods" don't.
This aspect can't be compared to the real world where miracles can be argued as both coincidence and divine. Please don't argue that by the way, I am merely saying that for every miracle there is somebody there to say coincidence or unproven.
In D&D, even if gods do not walk the lands, there are still powers above the average human being which are made plain to see to every person. There's no such thing as atheism in D&D though there are certainly those who detest or fear the gods. There are those who doubt in the small rural villages which never see divine power but they doubt only which they have never seen. These same communities also doubt magic exists and we can obviously not hold either doubt against them.
So when we consider why deities should give powers in D&D, it's quite simple. They take an active role in giving powers to those which follow them. Deities aren't simply a roleplayed aspect of D&D, they are living entities which actively effect daily life in the realms.
Feel whatever you want about real religions but understand they aren't comparable to the fictional Deities within the realms. They're not simply a part of who people are, their a true companion who not only have power but use it in visible ways.
There's this guy here to see you, says he's from the most cosmopolitan city in the multiverse, says he's from the Athar and would like to have a word with you. >_>
Even in canon D&D, a cleric can get powers without a deity, they just have to believe in something. I've always wanted to play a cleric who believed that in geometry, the secrets of divinity were revealed.
Of course, in FR, there are these guys that tool around calling themselves "gods" and impressing the tyranny of themselves on the landscape and handing out superpowers to random, irresponsible wackamoles called "chosen" who seem to do nothing but create strife. :P
ON TO TOPIC:
It is up to WOTC decide/answer what happens to the faithless. I have seen the TV series Supernatural. In that series one human is sent to hell after death and that persons soul is tortured and tormented by Demons.
Ok wall of faithless don't exist, but many Evil Demons and some Evil Gods still exist. So yeah you can still have punishment and reward. I really don't know what it means for the faithless, but it could mean they souls run in fear and try to flee from chasing Demons until catched. Demons are pretty intelligent and wicked. I would not be surprised if they figure a way to trap captured souls.
You are not atheist if you believe in many gods. Not all religions focus so much on World creation. If a Cleric would say to a Pantheon or in a prayer to his God such things that:
A. I don't believe you are a God.
B. I simply believe you are a powerful being that grants powers.
I would rate such a Cleric really really stupid. In R.A Salvatores books there are Priestess of Loth that looses the favor of Loth and can not cast Clerical spells. There are also examples of people getting killed by the will of Gods in DD world so I would not mess with the Gods. The DD gods might affect your life and you are not atheist if you believe in them according to my book.
It makes sense not to call someone atheist in the world of D&D. Unless, I guess, someone claims that the gods are just powerful mortals. Otherwise, it is very clear that gods exist in D&D so it would be more appropriate to refer to someone who does not claim allegiance to a god a "non-follower" instead of a non-believer, I think. Or "forsaken", when a god has abandoned a follower for whatever reason.
I do hope that following a deity will be a choice in the game. I would expect that deities may provide some bonuses or spells, so it might be a choice that comes with disadvantages, but it seems appropriate in a role-playing game to allow players to make that choice.
A. If the answer would be Sorry we do not follow any god! We simply believe believe that Gods don't exist and they are just powerful mortal beings and that being good and upholding law is the right thing to do!
then:
I would laugh... and say you are not a church in my eyes. Go away unbelievers and I don't give a HAMSTER about law and society! Lol.
B. If the answer would be... we follow many different gods ... some of us believe in Tempus others believe in Mystra...
then:
Well sounds good, but I find it strange that you call yourself a church? Would it not better to call you an organization? Like the Harpers for example. I might join your organization, but I don't consider it to be one church. Of course I understand if you got different Temples within your huge building. You are an organisation that allows members from many churches in my eyes. That is understandable I have heard of people who even worship a couple of gods.
C. If the answer would be.... we follow the (Evil) God Cyric!
then:
I would back away slowly and not turn my back from them... and say I respect your God. Currently though I don't feel that your God is the right path to follow. I respectfully leave now.
D. If answer would be... we follow Tempus... or some other god that I like
then I would say yeah why not join your church!
There and my character is Chaotic Good. It does not mean that I steal from rich and give money to the poor. However I don't care about the law so much, but fighting evil is a good thing.
Chaotic Good is pretty much the alignment my characters always were/are.
The two words here that I think get mixed up are "follow" and "believe". You can believe that a god exists, but not follow them. In this case, you are not an athiest, you are a non-follower or maybe a godless/heretic/heathen in the sense that you choose to follow no god.
Since gods have shown themselves in D&D, it doesn't make sense to me that someone wouldn't believe they exist. There is evidence of it. They are plainly referred to in the handbooks for goodness sake.
Thinking about it though, maybe a character has not seen a god for themselves and under those circumstances, does not believe in the existence of a god or gods. So, I guess I change my mind. Someone can call themselves an atheist in D&D. At least until they encounter one.
Alignment is greater than gods themselves. So if you are lawful good, you automatically serve Bahamut and Bahamut automatically helps you(being a dragon of honor etc.) even though you may follow dogma of other god.
Only those who do deal with devils can get 'trapped' by devils. After they die, if they fear death they may end up making the deal for a tenday when they are in world. Kelemvor says there is no need to be afraid and to believe that nothing bad happens to good, bad or faithless in Fugue plane.
Lastly you do not get power from deity but clergy. So even if the deity likes you very much, if the church doesn't - you don't get powers. You have to advance in ranks of the clergy doing their things.
p.s. all in role play. If real life was referred(or expected) anywhere, no I don't talk about rl here.
Yep the first D&D I played was the white box 3 volume set The religious aspect for clerics was purposely undescribed, A couple years later I met Gary at Gencon and asked him about it, he said he didn't want to bog down the world with religions because the real world had enough of them already; two years after that you saw the introduction of deities and TSR quickly became obsessed with them, it got much worse when Tracy Hickman joined TSR because he was a once missionary.
Being an agnostic in real life and generally turned off by religions of any kind part of me really liked the old D&D better; the worlds didn't have all this divine influence and that's still how I run my campaign. I am a king by your own hand Robert E Howard/Fritz Liber kind of fantasy buff and wotc is the exact opposite....it's like watching a FRP version of the 700 club, currently WoTC is obsessed with the nine hells and demons....I sorta hope they get that out of their systems and move on to more secular adventure hooks.
Pathfinder also isn't as laden with gods as D&D...oh yeah Sean K Reynolds wrote the really horrible Gods and Magic, but not too many people pay attention to anything he produces these days.
Almost nobody believes in greek gods anymore but everyone agrees they make some **** good stories. Infact most of modern games try to establish their version of these stories - be it god of war or many such games.
FR is about gods, and it is popular because of that reason. Although some changes were certainly made as one quoted below, however such changes were deemed necessary to make the setting popular eventually - for example, not many would have liked the idea of a beast being goddess of magic and would have wanted a human goddess - hence Mystra was the right choice instead of Lurue even when "Unicorns approach pure...", them being born of magic etc. legends are quite well known.
I would say they did well in making the Realms one of the most popular settings of D&D.
Meh Ed's version of the Realms...isn't so deity based and quite honestly in the first box set there wasn't a lot about deities all that came later and the FR boxed set sold like wildfire, I know a lot of people love their deities but it's a bit of a misnomer to say that FR is popular due to that reason alone and in fact many people get turned off when they use gods to Mary Sue everything in the realms.
Ed's world is vast and intricate it was meant to be so much more than just a sandbox for gods.
Meh I'll just stick to worshiping Tavern maids with large rac......um personalities.
Both of them....being split personalities? (good save...yeah...good save)
They are well rounded personalities ...
EDIT: I don't even need a save!
By keeping it simple and making it level based instead of money based, they could add a lot of great abilities and such.
It takes a whole lot of planning to implement a system like that tho...
Actually, before 4e you had Deneir for that.
Yep good catch Ed Greenwwoods article "Down to earth divinity" in Dragon #54 did a lot to shape how I view Deities in D&D, this was before the Realms went god crazy,(hell it was way before the 1st box set) but by the 2nd edition they had completely changed Deneir and made him yet another rigid highly structured god instead of the minor background entity he was intended to be.
Personally I still run my campaign the way Ed ran his in Dragon #54 Gods are background noise and the game is about you the hero.