One game doesn't set the standard. However the fact as a PvE Player I have been burned many times in the past by Developers throwing me into a PvP environment to appease PvPers has become the ultimate end to every MMO which has any form of PvP in it.
Most humans are competitive creatures. It's in our blood to compete.
+ It's actually more fun to play vs a unpredicable player were you must use reflexes,strategy and adaptation to a certain situation then repeat the same dungeon with the same boss over and over and over again....
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
I love competition, I hate violence. The pen is mightier than the sword as Shakespeare said. I give more credit to those able to show superior intellect than those able to use brute strength.
All in all this entire post means I hate contact sports. While the average person is different I can most assuradly say if blood and violence is in our blood it seems to have skipped me haha.
As for the level of fun, I'm hoping the Foundry will make things fun and Cryptic will continue to improve the quality of creatures players will be able to add to their creations. I don't look at this game as just another MMO which will end up as a grindfest of the same dungeons.
And that's what PvP is to the majority of players, a break from the grinding found in other MMO's.
Most humans are competitive creatures. It's in our blood to compete.
+ It's actually more fun to play vs a unpredicable player were you must use reflexes,strategy and adaptation to a certain situation then repeat the same dungeon with the same boss over and over and over again....
Not really, most socio-anthropological studies have shown that Homosapiens competitiveness is a product of post hunter/gatherer society. The only reason competition has any footing at all is that the vast majority of it is team based and allows for an aspect of cooperation, the only exception is bloodsports which is always the herald of a collapsing society; also if you talk to any FPS player worth his salt he will quickly inform you that the human opponent is just as predictable than most bots.
“It’s in our blood to compete” has been the rallying cry of the hyper-competitive for centuries….that doesn’t make it so because mankind’s greatest achievements hasn't been borne from competition they have been borne of cooperation.
The only reason competition has any footing at all is that the vast majority of it is team based and allows for an aspect of cooperation, the only exception is bloodsports
Almost every gambling game ever made, almost every board game ever made, almost every card game ever made, home-run derby, tennis, pingpong, foosball, every fighting game ever, the vast majority of RTS games, king of the hill, wrestling, gymnastics, fencing, target shooting, tri/bi/decathelon, deathmatch mode, every sport subsumed by track and field, hoop-shooting games, pong, almost every video sports game, almost every video and real-life racing game ever, competition for boyfriends/girlfriends, tag and almost all its variants, competition for employment, art or craftsmanship contests, the fine art of trolling, and darts...
...are all clearly bloodsports. :cool:
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syfylisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
1. Humans are pattern seeking mammals. In PvE you can create one pattern and you have answer for one problem but in PvP people can change their way of thinking (change pattern). Yes humans are predicable but you can't predict everything. If someone know your plans then he can create counter pattern.
2. Please not say "you prove my point". I read a few books in my life so I can write that way as well.
3 Humans do violence in very need of self-defence. When human face danger he can fight,freeze or runaway so you can hate violence but it may be something that save your life.
4. About "mankind’s greatest achievements hasn't been borne from competition" would you mind to say it about "Cold War" time?
5. "The pen is mightier than the sword as Shakespeare said" Ok you pull out pen and I sword 1 2 3 FIGHT
It all depends whose sword and pen. The problem with great quotes is that there is always 10 other quotes that can mean opposite and this don't give you any answer.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
The one thing we're not going to do on this thread is argue philosophical points back and forth. As relevant as some of them may be we can't talk in circles regarding matters which have no conclusive answers outside of the forums.
- Putting digressive symbolism on posters has never helped a discussion in any way. Posters who voice an opinion have no obligation to provide proof of an opinion that has, as the op points out, formed over a period of time. Putting him off may not be a part of your role as moderator and requires an explanation clearly stating reasons and background of your intervention.
I was going to stop arguing in this fashion but i want to say that the point, in my view was how it would affect the game if pvpers were to have a say in the pve parts of it. If we have established that while most players will be able to adapt to anyone in their party during the progress of a mission, there may still be some irritation on the part of the dedicated pvers. Either way, I wish there was an automaton in the previous games that points out how the "elitist pvpers" (as i now call them) can avoid griefing other players with their competitive playstyle.
I have personally seen more griefers in a pve only game then any other mmo i have ever played. Just because you enjoy pvp does not make you a griefer. A griefer is anyone who intentionally, and usually repeatedly, attempts to degrade anothers experience or torment them.
examples of griefing:
1. Player vs player abuse: Singling out the same person and killing them over and over when they are defensless until they log off.
2. Kill stealing: Repeatedly trying to steal another persons kills so that their time is wasted.
3. Verbal abuse: Spamming a person with vulgar, hatefull, or offensive messages.
4. Blocking: Getting in anothers way so they cannot move or get out of a particular area.
5. "Training": Triggering many monsters, almost always impossible to fight and survive, with the intention to either run someone out of an area or kill them indirectly if the server is not 'player vs player' enabled
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syfylisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
The one thing we're not going to do on this thread is argue philosophical points back and forth. As relevant as some of them may be we can't talk in circles regarding matters which have no conclusive answers outside of the forums.
Well all I wanted to show there are people that support pvp idea. Only reason I write is because I enjoy to do so. I already did what I wanted to so now it's just a word play.
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
If you wish to play a game of solitaire that's fine.
If you wish to play a game of words with friends, that's fine.
If you want to play a game of hockey, that's fine.
It's when you're trying to ply solitaire and you're told the way to get the card you need is to play in the hockey arena and hope you don't get creamed not being a hockey player is when there's a problem.
If a person wants to play PvE or PvP, or both, fine.
It's when players are tricked or outright forced into a PvP environment because they don't have any other options where I don't like that "choice," including endgame "options."
If you wish to play a game of solitaire that's fine.
If you wish to play a game of words with friends, that's fine.
If you want to play a game of hockey, that's fine.
It's when you're trying to ply solitaire and you're told the way to get the card you need is to play in the hockey arena and hope you don't get creamed not being a hockey player is when there's a problem.
If a person wants to play PvE or PvP, or both, fine.
It's when players are tricked or outright forced into a PvP environment because they don't have any other options where I don't like that "choice," including endgame "options."
Enough said.
Well yeah after trying WOW in a PvE roleplay server though I did enjoy lots of voluntary PvP Battlegrounds that was better then my Age of Conan playing when I unfortunately chose a PvP server. Full Open world PvP is not fun to me, but voluntary to enter PvP Battleground instances can be very fun.
Coming from a lover of PvP, I don't think open world PvP is right for this game. Though it does have its place in other games like Warhammer Online, World of Warcraft, Everquest, ToR, pretty much any split faction game.
I understand why they offer PvE servers for players that are willing to throw aside immersion because they just don't want anything to do with it. However when I play WoW I am definitely on the side of camping people during dailies/ that are farming/ that are questing/ or gathering outside an instance for a raid. I have not, nor will I ever forget that that game is the world of WARCRAFT. No I won't feel sorry because the daily's that should have taken you 20 mins instead took you an hour or more, maybe you shouldn't have sided with savages, maybe you should stay away from OUR daily zone.
Sometimes you do get ganked while your trying to do something and it slows you down as well. I just deal with it and nuture that hatred for my next bg or daily run. For that game its extremely important for the atmosphere of the world and honestly aside for convenience sake I don't think it should be optional to participate in that setting.
However D&D is different because you aren't REALLY picking sides in a conflict.
If you wish to play a game of solitaire that's fine.
If you wish to play a game of words with friends, that's fine.
If you want to play a game of hockey, that's fine.
It's when you're trying to ply solitaire and you're told the way to get the card you need is to play in the hockey arena and hope you don't get creamed not being a hockey player is when there's a problem.
If a person wants to play PvE or PvP, or both, fine.
It's when players are tricked or outright forced into a PvP environment because they don't have any other options where I don't like that "choice," including endgame "options."
Enough said.
Us hockey players feel the same way, except that we don't want to have to sit through 800 games of Solitaire to get a hockey stick.
Coming from a lover of PvP, I don't think open world PvP is right for this game. Though it does have its place in other games like Warhammer Online, World of Warcraft, Everquest, ToR, pretty much any split faction game.
I understand why they offer PvE servers for players that are willing to throw aside immersion because they just don't want anything to do with it. However when I play WoW I am definitely on the side of camping people during dailies/ that are farming/ that are questing/ or gathering outside an instance for a raid. I have not, nor will I ever forget that that game is the world of WARCRAFT. No I won't feel sorry because the daily's that should have taken you 20 mins instead took you an hour or more, maybe you shouldn't have sided with savages, maybe you should stay away from OUR daily zone.
Sometimes you do get ganked while your trying to do something and it slows you down as well. I just deal with it and nuture that hatred for my next bg or daily run. For that game its extremely important for the atmosphere of the world and honestly aside for convenience sake I don't think it should be optional to participate in that setting.
However D&D is different because you aren't REALLY picking sides in a conflict.
PvP is your definition of immersion?! Being "slowed down" after getting PKed by a trash-talking 12 year old because you didn't want to come up with a good Chuck Norris joke, then doing the same thing to THEM because "they started it".
The only difference between your previously mentioned games and NWO is that NWO doesn't spoon-feed you factions and try and FORCE you to play a certain side (for the most part). Players can choose whether they want to follow certain paths/deities/quests, kill certain enemies, patrol certain territory, etc. It's called "roleplaying", and if you ask me, it's PvEers that know the setting best and how to get fully immersed into the D&D world.
It has been asked whether i play only paladins. Well i have a guardian tank ... When i join a run i try to supply a character who will supplement the party well - i try to have a build ready for every occasion.
If you want to integrate a pvper into a coop party everything is very simple, because they are all the same. Just let them seek out the enemy and make sure you get out of the way. When they fail, all you need to do is use a res scroll. Takes quite some time for a berserker to notice how ineffective they really are in comparison to experienced coppers. In fact it takes forever. Sometimes i think they have a bootcd in the head that hasn't been updated since freedos.
Abuse happens when a berser gets angry, and really angry, and then pops red and yellow stripes out of the head. They can be very harmful to friendly targets in many ways *1). When the gameplay becomes dominated by the beraged, i would call it quits.
Does this answer your question ? This is a friendly game !. We do not like your style, shut up and play nice !
PS:
Griefing does not always have to be intentional. I would rather call someone a griefer when they refuse to accept the necessity to act according to rules. The rules of a game are 2-fold: the generally accepted ones and the rules followed by people because they adhere to a special playstyle. The latter appear in the context of a more "free" definition and are very important to the faction, but are not part of the game's own ruleset in any way. It is your own fantasy that makes up these rules.
- You can not say "these rules apply to everyone", unless they are part of the d&d ruleset.
- All playstyles are allowed to exist and must be protected. Even if it takes exclusive areas for them to take place in, or special builds that are only allowed in specific contexts.
*1) for example, D3 (really a simple game, i only play it to kill time) berserker reflect damage ability. This buff temporarily absorbs a percentage of received damage, reflecting it outwards. It mitigates the damage so that all targets near the berserker are affected. This buff helps the main tank to survive but it also causes any wizards and monk to pop spontanously. In a competitive setting, it is expected to use this and can improve the progressing speed of the party. In cooperative play, it is absolutely banned from use. Most players who use reflect are unaware of this.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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neowolfenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 68
Is PvP "Bad" for MMORPGs? I'd say yes. PvP brings imbalance and other tweaks and changes that far too often fundamentally change PvE content and play. For MMOFPS or MMORTS however? No, PvP is integral in these latter two types of MMOs.
I would agree with the above, wholeheartedly.
In fact it has always baffled me why the noisy, yet blatantly smaller PvP crowd seem to be the ones driving Game changes and balance tweaks that affect the ENTIRETY of games, when the PVE'ers (whom these days definitely mostly soloers, very small groups and/or casual in nature) are the ones who make up the majority of the gameplay and game players.
PvP for my tastes should be kept entirely separate from PVE servers (and vice versa) and if accessible at all should only put people in queues that put them in matches on PVP servers. that way tweaks and ruleset alterations could be applied specifically and ONLY to PvP servers without unduly affecting the rest of us.
Sadly however the noisy minorities driving game changes and updates is something that remains a recurring issue throughout the industry.
Im all for peoples right to PvP but not when it affects non PvP gameplay and when you consider the majority of any MMORPG's gameplay and content is PVE based it makes little or no sense to change IT for the sake of PVP.
PVP tweaks should be integral in the areas it is relevant and entirely absent in the areas it is not.
Ser Alathor Crownguard, Cwelenas Alenuath, Dwarin Stonefist, Danaerys Hellborn
Well, if the PVP is garbage, meaning no one uses it, perhaps Cryptic will just focus on the Foundry post-launch. Or they might attempt to fix a broken PVP system, and they might succeed or they might just pile more garbage on, we just don't know yet.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
PvP is your definition of immersion?! Being "slowed down" after getting PKed by a trash-talking 12 year old because you didn't want to come up with a good Chuck Norris joke, then doing the same thing to THEM because "they started it".
Chuck Norris has won all PvP matches Past Present and Future because he invented PvP to amuse himself watching others when he wasn't shaping the Universe.
Chuck Norris has won all PvP matches Past Present and Future because he invented PvP to amuse himself watching others when he wasn't shaping the Universe.
Even better, Chuck Norris doesn’t have lag because the Internet knows to hurry the hell up!
Oh and Chuck Norris’ keyboard doesn’t have a Ctrl key because nothing controls Chuck Norris.
PvP is your definition of immersion?! Being "slowed down" after getting PKed by a trash-talking 12 year old because you didn't want to come up with a good Chuck Norris joke, then doing the same thing to THEM because "they started it".
The only difference between your previously mentioned games and NWO is that NWO doesn't spoon-feed you factions and try and FORCE you to play a certain side (for the most part). Players can choose whether they want to follow certain paths/deities/quests, kill certain enemies, patrol certain territory, etc. It's called "roleplaying", and if you ask me, it's PvEers that know the setting best and how to get fully immersed into the D&D world.
1) You can't even talk cross faction so there is no trash talking between sides. Unless you count "kek" but if that really bothers you then you have your own problems.
2) I already stated Neverwinter doesn't need it because of the reasons you listed above so pretty much your second argument is completely unnecessary WoW bashing because you had to fit it in for some reason.
I'll go more in to depth in the next point.
3) It makes complete sense for the WoW factions to be like they are. They could allow you to pick a third faction but that would just mean getting man handled by the Alliance and the Horde. Its sort of like the US's Bi-Partisan politics. In that setting some members of each faction are just there because they have no place to go and if they were alone they would get devoured by the conflict between the two sides. Also it is immersive to PvP in WoW's setting. There isn't a stupid "temporary truce" or some ******** going on right now, the two factions ARE at war, and I would be endlessly frustrated if I couldn't cleanse every single one of those barbaric monsters from the face of Azeroth.
1. They slaughtered my people when the portals opened.
2. They slaughtered my people with bio warfare at the Wrath Gate.
3. They desecrated Lordaeron.
4. They nuked Theramore.
5. They slew our hero Highlord Bolvar Fordragon who died in service of the alliance, the horde, and all of Azeroth. His true service never known to the world.
6. They invaded Gilneas and slaughtered our brethren.
7. They sought to burn and destroy the night elf refuge of Ashenvale to fuel their savage war.
8. They assaulted Southshore with an act of barbarism that could only be called genocide by using their new plague.
Finally they are trying to corrupt the pureness of Pandaria and lead its people to ruin. I haven't fought to save this world to watch them sow destruction on everything that is made. I buried my hatred in wrath but they only betrayed us again. In the words of King Varian, "I'm through with your Horde" peace is and will forever be out of the question now. I do the best I can for my people, and I fight the war for those who can't, they serve the alliance in their own way and I serve it in mine.
So don't you dare say there isn't immersion in PvP because one thing WoW does is make it easy for you to feel apart of something bigger than yourself and thats never a bad thing. Its what makes you help another alliance when you see them getting ganked, or they have trouble on a mob, or they don't have 50g for an enchant. It also makes you feel like an important part of the whole as well and it makes you feel allegiance to the various third party factions in the world.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The only difference between your previously mentioned games and NWO is that NWO doesn't spoon-feed you factions and try and FORCE you to play a certain side (for the most part). Players can choose whether they want to follow certain paths/deities/quests, kill certain enemies, patrol certain territory, etc. It's called "roleplaying", and if you ask me, it's PvEers that know the setting best and how to get fully immersed into the D&D world.
We will not have full Open world PvP so I do not think PvP is bad. I like both PvE and PvP.
Well yeah after trying WOW in a PvE roleplay server though I did enjoy lots of voluntary PvP Battlegrounds that was better then my Age of Conan playing when I unfortunately chose a PvP server. Full Open world PvP is not fun to me, but voluntary to enter PvP Battleground instances can be very fun.
However roleplay can be very bad for a game. I like roleplay if it is for fun, but if GM say you can not play almost NEVER smart because you have INT=8, and stop powerplay then I answer you should not be GM.
NWN can only beat BG if we consider community released content(adventures and persistent server worlds). I played on persistent player driven server with beautiful graphics and more colors then the Neverwinter Nights main campaign.That said I am really happy Cryptic is the server holder. There was no love lost between me and my server holders who favored only their real life friends and annoyingly tried to enforce hardcore roleplaying.
I certainly don't wish for player driven servers and Neverwinter does not support them as should be!
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galvayraMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
roleplay can be very bad for a game. I like roleplay if it is for fun[/COLOR], but if GM say you can not play almost NEVER smart because you have INT=8, and stop powerplay then I answer you should not be GM.
Many people have an often wrong assumption of what stats mean to a roleplay environment, a low intellect does not mean you have to play a stupid character with the mind of a child and a speech impediment , it just means that when it comes to options your character can only think the most basic and crude of them, while highly intelligent characters can have a wider array of options when dealing with something
Your party finds a trap, a low int fighter can try to avoid , trigger or destroy it while a highly intelligent thief or wizard can devise a more intelligent set of options like disarming it, modify it in a way that works in your favor ect.
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts."
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited December 2012
Agreed. The highly intelligent wizard gets the thief to deal with the trap
Agreed. The highly intelligent wizard gets the thief to deal with the trap
How can i roleplay with a rogue when i can't steal nothing from another player ? I don't mean steal items or things like that or even gold from his own inventory. I mean use pickpoket and get gold for it like fishing in wow....or mining ore.
Make me belive the roleplaying of the game!
How can i play with a maniac wizard if i cannot fight another player ? How can i be a fight obsessed barbarian if i cannot fight another player ? How can i be a gladiator fighter if there is no arena ?
This game needs dueling, needs pvp events, needs arena fighing !
Without the pvp the entire world is broken. D&D is about player making they're dreams come true.
I sincerly cannot accept this hole "let's all be friends","let's all be pacifist","we all need to cooperate" thing.
I want to KICK <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> !
p.s. it would be really silly if we have to use imagination in some corner of the map and pretend we are rogues like just walking with stealth behind people and pretend we are assasins....what would be kinda lame. I want to do these things for real not pretend in a video game... I can do that in allmost any other mmo.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
How can i roleplay with a rogue when i can't steal nothing from another player ? I don't mean steal items or things like that or even gold from his own inventory. I mean use pickpoket and get gold for it like fishing in wow....or mining ore.
Make me belive the roleplaying of the game!
How can i play with a maniac wizard if i cannot fight another player ? How can i be a fight obsessed barbarian if i cannot fight another player ? How can i be a gladiator fighter if there is no arena ?
This game needs dueling, needs pvp events, needs arena fighing !
Without the pvp the entire world is broken. D&D is about player making they're dreams come true.
I sincerly cannot accept this hole "let's all be friends","let's all be pacifist","we all need to cooperate" thing.
I want to KICK <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> !
p.s. it would be really silly if we have to use imagination in some corner of the map and pretend we are rogues like just walking with stealth behind people and pretend we are assasins....what would be kinda lame. I want to do these things for real not pretend in a video game... I can do that in allmost any other mmo.
Well, pickpocketing has it's own thread and feel free to comment on these views there as well. Not likely to be in at launch, but who can say what the future brings?
As for PvP, one of the game delay reasons was to also add PvP. I'm guessing if you ever played a STO or CO game, you have a good idea how Cryptic handles it. But I'm sure you can show your mastery there with all takers when the game releases!
How Cryptic handles pvp...poorly to date imo. Lets hope the fourth time is a home run.
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xearrikMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 323Arc User
edited December 2012
I don't like PvP in almost every MMORPG I've ever played. It usually attracts players with horrible attitude problems. Rather then it being a fun and challenging aspect of the game it degrades into mindless fools taunting and yelling at each other.
Personally when I'm looking for PvP combat I play a game designed for just PvP. Such as shooter or games like LoL. They tend to be far more balanced, and easier for me to walk away from when the PvP community takes a turn south.
Da kitties don't speak for me, deez kitties speak fur us all!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'll Keep this up till beta goes live. I'll improve it soon.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
A perfect concise summarization of how I feel about PvP in MMO's Xearrik.
I love League of Legends, First Person Shooters and RTS games. I hate PvP and what it brings to the MMO environment and the effects it has on PvE both directly and indirectly. After I stopped playing another MMO to play a PvP game some of my friends were thoroughly shocked because they knew how much hatred I had/have for PvP Mechanics [in MMO's].
But I truly do love PvP especially when it's no-risk PvP but it has to be in a PvP Game. I have nothing nice to say about MMO or Co-Op PvP.
There's actually too much group content at endgame in every MMORPG, and fact is, these days too few people want to do (or have the time to do) that type of content. That's why people leave - most are solo or just happen to casually group in passing - and don't want to be trapped into grinding gear at endgame in large, organised groups, as is the default endgame for most MMORPGs. It's default because developers don't have to put much thought into it, just churn a few raids out every so often and they think people will be pleased with more grind. Well we're not. Once MMORPGs leave that tired old dinosaur behind (forced organised group grinding for endgame gear), we'll start to get somewhere and see player retention.
You bring up a great point: Grinding gear at endgame Is the standard for MMOs.
I think the problem, for non-WoW games (FFXI for this example) is the time commitment required. I spent six months in an HNMLS/Endgame LS in FFXI before I acquired my first piece of 'Sky/God gear.' This included trips to Sky, Dynamis, Sea, etc... on an almost nightly basis. I would get home from work, eat and drink, log on, then log off at 1-3 am pst. I repeated this M-F and spent 12+ hours a day logged on during weekends. FFXI became my second job. And I know this is the type of time commitment people want to move away from.
WoW is a different story, and most everyone understands it, so I won't waste time explaining it.
However, I don't necessarily dislike or hate either method for endgame, but I think they could be tweaked. How? That's up to the devs.
FFXI has one really good system in place, and that could be used for endgame in Neverwinter and that is the Weaponskill trials, to include the up-gradable weapons from the Moogle. This allowed a base variant weapon to grow in strength based off of what you killed, how you killed it and when/where you killed it. And they both included a kill/WS count.
Neverwinter weapons could be upgraded in a similar fashion. You could have the ability for them to take on specific traits if you kill X (10/100/1000/10000/100000...n) which would grant you a +1/2/3/4/5...n bonus based off of the amount of kills you've had with that weapon. Or you could go on quests for your specific deity and they could grant you weapons (deity specific) or they could empower your 'endgame' weapon with a specific boon.
I'm also in favor of deity intervention/interaction, i.e. a quest line, like an epic quest line.
I digress.
I think endgame gear, weapons and armor, should be readily available to everyone, but they should also have severe time requirements if and only if they are being acquired through quests or other non-raid methods.
In regards to PvP...
I think PvP should have real world consequences, not just capturing territories and having certain vendors available to your faction (WoW -.-). The consequences should be more dramatic. Give PvP and economic impact on the factions, if there are any, and make it desirable to do. I had no desire whatsoever to grind PvP in WoW for points to get PvP only gear. Not so much fun, actually.
PvP-stlye PvE content would be great, too. Having the various minions, be it drow, undead, githyanki or whomever attack (raid) a city or settlement, which you have to fend off for various rewards. And yes, a tangible worthwhile reward would be nice. Think of Besieged from FFXI. However, it would be extended to pretty much everywhere instead of being confined to one city.
And a pit (arena) could be added. This would be an actual pit for two people to fight in, either for monetary gain, or as a punishment. You killed numerous city guards or civilians and you've been thrown into a pit to fight to the death. And onlookers would be allowed to place bets.
Again, Neverwinter is in a great position to be able to learn from other game's pitfalls. And it can implement some mind-blowing content that is either new or is an amalgamation of styles from other games.
And of course, the devs can learn from us. Make some surveys about proposed content and have us vote on it, once the game is up and running - or at least beta - because we are the ones that will be affected by developmental changes. Give us a say in what happens in this game.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited December 2012
Just to repeat, it's been confirmed Neverwinter will have no faction systems.
As nice as they can be that's one thing we won't be getting at least at launch.
And honestly factions as we see in WoW just aren't what I see in the FR. The wars in the FR are typically civil in nature rather than external. On top of that wars, if you call them that, tend to be behind the scenes coos or selfish plots. It's not often that we read about armies marching on armies like we find in The Lord of the Rings but rather the Forgotten Realms seem to be infested with Darth Sidious's.
While Drow to Surface Factions could make for a very entertaining game...one which I'd love to see due to my experiences in NWN1...I don't see factions working out which are more complex than that.
Neverwinter and the other major FR Cities tend to be lawful. It would ruin any immersion to be able to go around killing people without repercussions inside the city. Outside of the city...well it might as well be limited wildness PvP Zones.
I don't like PvP in almost every MMORPG I've ever played. It usually attracts players with horrible attitude problems. Rather then it being a fun and challenging aspect of the game it degrades into mindless fools taunting and yelling at each other.
Personally when I'm looking for PvP combat I play a game designed for just PvP. Such as shooter or games like LoL. They tend to be far more balanced, and easier for me to walk away from when the PvP community takes a turn south.
PvP's "bad attitudes" comes from the competitive environment. People are playing against each other and it is in their nature to be competitive. Personally I like open PvP kill anyone anywhere any time like Shadowbane (but that will never happen again). This is why we make PvP and PvE servers....
Comments
Most humans are competitive creatures. It's in our blood to compete.
+ It's actually more fun to play vs a unpredicable player were you must use reflexes,strategy and adaptation to a certain situation then repeat the same dungeon with the same boss over and over and over again....
All in all this entire post means I hate contact sports. While the average person is different I can most assuradly say if blood and violence is in our blood it seems to have skipped me haha.
As for the level of fun, I'm hoping the Foundry will make things fun and Cryptic will continue to improve the quality of creatures players will be able to add to their creations. I don't look at this game as just another MMO which will end up as a grindfest of the same dungeons.
And that's what PvP is to the majority of players, a break from the grinding found in other MMO's.
“It’s in our blood to compete” has been the rallying cry of the hyper-competitive for centuries….that doesn’t make it so because mankind’s greatest achievements hasn't been borne from competition they have been borne of cooperation.
Almost every gambling game ever made, almost every board game ever made, almost every card game ever made, home-run derby, tennis, pingpong, foosball, every fighting game ever, the vast majority of RTS games, king of the hill, wrestling, gymnastics, fencing, target shooting, tri/bi/decathelon, deathmatch mode, every sport subsumed by track and field, hoop-shooting games, pong, almost every video sports game, almost every video and real-life racing game ever, competition for boyfriends/girlfriends, tag and almost all its variants, competition for employment, art or craftsmanship contests, the fine art of trolling, and darts...
...are all clearly bloodsports. :cool:
2. Please not say "you prove my point". I read a few books in my life so I can write that way as well.
3 Humans do violence in very need of self-defence. When human face danger he can fight,freeze or runaway so you can hate violence but it may be something that save your life.
4. About "mankind’s greatest achievements hasn't been borne from competition" would you mind to say it about "Cold War" time?
5. "The pen is mightier than the sword as Shakespeare said" Ok you pull out pen and I sword 1 2 3 FIGHT
It all depends whose sword and pen. The problem with great quotes is that there is always 10 other quotes that can mean opposite and this don't give you any answer.
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
I have personally seen more griefers in a pve only game then any other mmo i have ever played. Just because you enjoy pvp does not make you a griefer. A griefer is anyone who intentionally, and usually repeatedly, attempts to degrade anothers experience or torment them.
examples of griefing:
1. Player vs player abuse: Singling out the same person and killing them over and over when they are defensless until they log off.
2. Kill stealing: Repeatedly trying to steal another persons kills so that their time is wasted.
3. Verbal abuse: Spamming a person with vulgar, hatefull, or offensive messages.
4. Blocking: Getting in anothers way so they cannot move or get out of a particular area.
5. "Training": Triggering many monsters, almost always impossible to fight and survive, with the intention to either run someone out of an area or kill them indirectly if the server is not 'player vs player' enabled
Well all I wanted to show there are people that support pvp idea. Only reason I write is because I enjoy to do so. I already did what I wanted to so now it's just a word play.
My work: Heroes Blacksmith - Library
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?21051-Heroes-Blacksmith-Library
If you wish to play a game of words with friends, that's fine.
If you want to play a game of hockey, that's fine.
It's when you're trying to ply solitaire and you're told the way to get the card you need is to play in the hockey arena and hope you don't get creamed not being a hockey player is when there's a problem.
If a person wants to play PvE or PvP, or both, fine.
It's when players are tricked or outright forced into a PvP environment because they don't have any other options where I don't like that "choice," including endgame "options."
Enough said.
I understand why they offer PvE servers for players that are willing to throw aside immersion because they just don't want anything to do with it. However when I play WoW I am definitely on the side of camping people during dailies/ that are farming/ that are questing/ or gathering outside an instance for a raid. I have not, nor will I ever forget that that game is the world of WARCRAFT. No I won't feel sorry because the daily's that should have taken you 20 mins instead took you an hour or more, maybe you shouldn't have sided with savages, maybe you should stay away from OUR daily zone.
Sometimes you do get ganked while your trying to do something and it slows you down as well. I just deal with it and nuture that hatred for my next bg or daily run. For that game its extremely important for the atmosphere of the world and honestly aside for convenience sake I don't think it should be optional to participate in that setting.
However D&D is different because you aren't REALLY picking sides in a conflict.
Us hockey players feel the same way, except that we don't want to have to sit through 800 games of Solitaire to get a hockey stick.
PvP is your definition of immersion?! Being "slowed down" after getting PKed by a trash-talking 12 year old because you didn't want to come up with a good Chuck Norris joke, then doing the same thing to THEM because "they started it".
The only difference between your previously mentioned games and NWO is that NWO doesn't spoon-feed you factions and try and FORCE you to play a certain side (for the most part). Players can choose whether they want to follow certain paths/deities/quests, kill certain enemies, patrol certain territory, etc. It's called "roleplaying", and if you ask me, it's PvEers that know the setting best and how to get fully immersed into the D&D world.
If you want to integrate a pvper into a coop party everything is very simple, because they are all the same. Just let them seek out the enemy and make sure you get out of the way. When they fail, all you need to do is use a res scroll. Takes quite some time for a berserker to notice how ineffective they really are in comparison to experienced coppers. In fact it takes forever. Sometimes i think they have a bootcd in the head that hasn't been updated since freedos.
Abuse happens when a berser gets angry, and really angry, and then pops red and yellow stripes out of the head. They can be very harmful to friendly targets in many ways *1). When the gameplay becomes dominated by the beraged, i would call it quits.
Does this answer your question ? This is a friendly game !. We do not like your style, shut up and play nice !
PS:
Griefing does not always have to be intentional. I would rather call someone a griefer when they refuse to accept the necessity to act according to rules. The rules of a game are 2-fold: the generally accepted ones and the rules followed by people because they adhere to a special playstyle. The latter appear in the context of a more "free" definition and are very important to the faction, but are not part of the game's own ruleset in any way. It is your own fantasy that makes up these rules.
- You can not say "these rules apply to everyone", unless they are part of the d&d ruleset.
- All playstyles are allowed to exist and must be protected. Even if it takes exclusive areas for them to take place in, or special builds that are only allowed in specific contexts.
*1) for example, D3 (really a simple game, i only play it to kill time) berserker reflect damage ability. This buff temporarily absorbs a percentage of received damage, reflecting it outwards. It mitigates the damage so that all targets near the berserker are affected. This buff helps the main tank to survive but it also causes any wizards and monk to pop spontanously. In a competitive setting, it is expected to use this and can improve the progressing speed of the party. In cooperative play, it is absolutely banned from use. Most players who use reflect are unaware of this.
I would agree with the above, wholeheartedly.
In fact it has always baffled me why the noisy, yet blatantly smaller PvP crowd seem to be the ones driving Game changes and balance tweaks that affect the ENTIRETY of games, when the PVE'ers (whom these days definitely mostly soloers, very small groups and/or casual in nature) are the ones who make up the majority of the gameplay and game players.
PvP for my tastes should be kept entirely separate from PVE servers (and vice versa) and if accessible at all should only put people in queues that put them in matches on PVP servers. that way tweaks and ruleset alterations could be applied specifically and ONLY to PvP servers without unduly affecting the rest of us.
Sadly however the noisy minorities driving game changes and updates is something that remains a recurring issue throughout the industry.
Im all for peoples right to PvP but not when it affects non PvP gameplay and when you consider the majority of any MMORPG's gameplay and content is PVE based it makes little or no sense to change IT for the sake of PVP.
PVP tweaks should be integral in the areas it is relevant and entirely absent in the areas it is not.
Chuck Norris has won all PvP matches Past Present and Future because he invented PvP to amuse himself watching others when he wasn't shaping the Universe.
Even better, Chuck Norris doesn’t have lag because the Internet knows to hurry the hell up!
Oh and Chuck Norris’ keyboard doesn’t have a Ctrl key because nothing controls Chuck Norris.
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1) You can't even talk cross faction so there is no trash talking between sides. Unless you count "kek" but if that really bothers you then you have your own problems.
2) I already stated Neverwinter doesn't need it because of the reasons you listed above so pretty much your second argument is completely unnecessary WoW bashing because you had to fit it in for some reason.
I'll go more in to depth in the next point.
3) It makes complete sense for the WoW factions to be like they are. They could allow you to pick a third faction but that would just mean getting man handled by the Alliance and the Horde. Its sort of like the US's Bi-Partisan politics. In that setting some members of each faction are just there because they have no place to go and if they were alone they would get devoured by the conflict between the two sides. Also it is immersive to PvP in WoW's setting. There isn't a stupid "temporary truce" or some ******** going on right now, the two factions ARE at war, and I would be endlessly frustrated if I couldn't cleanse every single one of those barbaric monsters from the face of Azeroth.
1. They slaughtered my people when the portals opened.
2. They slaughtered my people with bio warfare at the Wrath Gate.
3. They desecrated Lordaeron.
4. They nuked Theramore.
5. They slew our hero Highlord Bolvar Fordragon who died in service of the alliance, the horde, and all of Azeroth. His true service never known to the world.
6. They invaded Gilneas and slaughtered our brethren.
7. They sought to burn and destroy the night elf refuge of Ashenvale to fuel their savage war.
8. They assaulted Southshore with an act of barbarism that could only be called genocide by using their new plague.
Finally they are trying to corrupt the pureness of Pandaria and lead its people to ruin. I haven't fought to save this world to watch them sow destruction on everything that is made. I buried my hatred in wrath but they only betrayed us again. In the words of King Varian, "I'm through with your Horde" peace is and will forever be out of the question now. I do the best I can for my people, and I fight the war for those who can't, they serve the alliance in their own way and I serve it in mine.
So don't you dare say there isn't immersion in PvP because one thing WoW does is make it easy for you to feel apart of something bigger than yourself and thats never a bad thing. Its what makes you help another alliance when you see them getting ganked, or they have trouble on a mob, or they don't have 50g for an enchant. It also makes you feel like an important part of the whole as well and it makes you feel allegiance to the various third party factions in the world.
We will not have full Open world PvP so I do not think PvP is bad. I like both PvE and PvP.
However roleplay can be very bad for a game. I like roleplay if it is for fun, but if GM say you can not play almost NEVER smart because you have INT=8, and stop powerplay then I answer you should not be GM.
Many people have an often wrong assumption of what stats mean to a roleplay environment, a low intellect does not mean you have to play a stupid character with the mind of a child and a speech impediment , it just means that when it comes to options your character can only think the most basic and crude of them, while highly intelligent characters can have a wider array of options when dealing with something
Your party finds a trap, a low int fighter can try to avoid , trigger or destroy it while a highly intelligent thief or wizard can devise a more intelligent set of options like disarming it, modify it in a way that works in your favor ect.
How can i roleplay with a rogue when i can't steal nothing from another player ? I don't mean steal items or things like that or even gold from his own inventory. I mean use pickpoket and get gold for it like fishing in wow....or mining ore.
Make me belive the roleplaying of the game!
How can i play with a maniac wizard if i cannot fight another player ? How can i be a fight obsessed barbarian if i cannot fight another player ? How can i be a gladiator fighter if there is no arena ?
This game needs dueling, needs pvp events, needs arena fighing !
Without the pvp the entire world is broken. D&D is about player making they're dreams come true.
I sincerly cannot accept this hole "let's all be friends","let's all be pacifist","we all need to cooperate" thing.
I want to KICK <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> !
p.s. it would be really silly if we have to use imagination in some corner of the map and pretend we are rogues like just walking with stealth behind people and pretend we are assasins....what would be kinda lame. I want to do these things for real not pretend in a video game... I can do that in allmost any other mmo.
Well, pickpocketing has it's own thread and feel free to comment on these views there as well. Not likely to be in at launch, but who can say what the future brings?
As for PvP, one of the game delay reasons was to also add PvP. I'm guessing if you ever played a STO or CO game, you have a good idea how Cryptic handles it. But I'm sure you can show your mastery there with all takers when the game releases!
Personally when I'm looking for PvP combat I play a game designed for just PvP. Such as shooter or games like LoL. They tend to be far more balanced, and easier for me to walk away from when the PvP community takes a turn south.
I love League of Legends, First Person Shooters and RTS games. I hate PvP and what it brings to the MMO environment and the effects it has on PvE both directly and indirectly. After I stopped playing another MMO to play a PvP game some of my friends were thoroughly shocked because they knew how much hatred I had/have for PvP Mechanics [in MMO's].
But I truly do love PvP especially when it's no-risk PvP but it has to be in a PvP Game. I have nothing nice to say about MMO or Co-Op PvP.
You bring up a great point: Grinding gear at endgame Is the standard for MMOs.
I think the problem, for non-WoW games (FFXI for this example) is the time commitment required. I spent six months in an HNMLS/Endgame LS in FFXI before I acquired my first piece of 'Sky/God gear.' This included trips to Sky, Dynamis, Sea, etc... on an almost nightly basis. I would get home from work, eat and drink, log on, then log off at 1-3 am pst. I repeated this M-F and spent 12+ hours a day logged on during weekends. FFXI became my second job. And I know this is the type of time commitment people want to move away from.
WoW is a different story, and most everyone understands it, so I won't waste time explaining it.
However, I don't necessarily dislike or hate either method for endgame, but I think they could be tweaked. How? That's up to the devs.
FFXI has one really good system in place, and that could be used for endgame in Neverwinter and that is the Weaponskill trials, to include the up-gradable weapons from the Moogle. This allowed a base variant weapon to grow in strength based off of what you killed, how you killed it and when/where you killed it. And they both included a kill/WS count.
Neverwinter weapons could be upgraded in a similar fashion. You could have the ability for them to take on specific traits if you kill X (10/100/1000/10000/100000...n) which would grant you a +1/2/3/4/5...n bonus based off of the amount of kills you've had with that weapon. Or you could go on quests for your specific deity and they could grant you weapons (deity specific) or they could empower your 'endgame' weapon with a specific boon.
I'm also in favor of deity intervention/interaction, i.e. a quest line, like an epic quest line.
I digress.
I think endgame gear, weapons and armor, should be readily available to everyone, but they should also have severe time requirements if and only if they are being acquired through quests or other non-raid methods.
In regards to PvP...
I think PvP should have real world consequences, not just capturing territories and having certain vendors available to your faction (WoW -.-). The consequences should be more dramatic. Give PvP and economic impact on the factions, if there are any, and make it desirable to do. I had no desire whatsoever to grind PvP in WoW for points to get PvP only gear. Not so much fun, actually.
PvP-stlye PvE content would be great, too. Having the various minions, be it drow, undead, githyanki or whomever attack (raid) a city or settlement, which you have to fend off for various rewards. And yes, a tangible worthwhile reward would be nice. Think of Besieged from FFXI. However, it would be extended to pretty much everywhere instead of being confined to one city.
And a pit (arena) could be added. This would be an actual pit for two people to fight in, either for monetary gain, or as a punishment. You killed numerous city guards or civilians and you've been thrown into a pit to fight to the death. And onlookers would be allowed to place bets.
Again, Neverwinter is in a great position to be able to learn from other game's pitfalls. And it can implement some mind-blowing content that is either new or is an amalgamation of styles from other games.
And of course, the devs can learn from us. Make some surveys about proposed content and have us vote on it, once the game is up and running - or at least beta - because we are the ones that will be affected by developmental changes. Give us a say in what happens in this game.
As nice as they can be that's one thing we won't be getting at least at launch.
And honestly factions as we see in WoW just aren't what I see in the FR. The wars in the FR are typically civil in nature rather than external. On top of that wars, if you call them that, tend to be behind the scenes coos or selfish plots. It's not often that we read about armies marching on armies like we find in The Lord of the Rings but rather the Forgotten Realms seem to be infested with Darth Sidious's.
While Drow to Surface Factions could make for a very entertaining game...one which I'd love to see due to my experiences in NWN1...I don't see factions working out which are more complex than that.
Neverwinter and the other major FR Cities tend to be lawful. It would ruin any immersion to be able to go around killing people without repercussions inside the city. Outside of the city...well it might as well be limited wildness PvP Zones.
PvP's "bad attitudes" comes from the competitive environment. People are playing against each other and it is in their nature to be competitive. Personally I like open PvP kill anyone anywhere any time like Shadowbane (but that will never happen again). This is why we make PvP and PvE servers....