The welfare of a child is slipping further and further out of the hands of parents as they continue to instead have companies take care of babyproofing everything- I think that's going to be something far, far more scary as parents seek more ways to take less responsibility and know less about their children.
Don't let your child play mmos, don't let them play completely unsupervised, don't give them a credit card, and monitor their transactions. All are completely reasonable methods to prevent your child from gambling on lock boxes- among a hundred other things they might be doing. Children need a degree of freedom yes, but they also need a degree of supervision and discipline- to me gambling off lockboxes just seems like another in a long list of witchhunt victims of parents looking for ways to explain why their child is bad that has nothing to do with their own parenting methods. Enabling that behaviour will not end well for today's youth.
Sorry but I just have to LOL.
Big companies don't baby proof anything they do the opposite in fact. In the usa big companies send market specialist to primary schools to do studies on what children like so that they may "target" them easier.
It's not simply that parents want to blame others, it's more like being a parent has become a nearly impossible task because most people in society would deny taking responsibility for their actions and how it affects others.
There's a saying "it takes a village". Untill people stop being selfish and remember this it will never end well for todays youth.
First of all children shouldn't be playing MMO's. That may be an unpopular thought, but any child too young to understand that the game has costs associated with it should not be playing it, and that is the parents responsibility to monitor not anyone else's.
Second, any child too young to understand the costs of an MMO that the parent lets play the MMO should be supervised. If they are not supervised then that again is the failure of the parent.
Third, no game I have ever played allows me to buy things like "Zen" without leaving the game and choosing a payment option and choosing an amount of currency I want to buy. All of these things should prevent a child who doesn't know any better from buying zen and thus spending money if left unsupervised. Some companies allow you to save payment methods for future use, but if you are worried about a child making unwanted purchases you should never use this option unless you are prepared to supervise their activities at all times.
Finally, if a child who doesn't know any better is playing an MMO where you have currency like Zen on the account and you are not supervising them, then it is your actions that allowed them to spend said currency, not the games.
I despise lockboxes, but they are not some hidden evil trying to trick children into spending thousands on them, there are plenty of ways to prevent children for spending said money, many of these methods are put into place by the game companies themselves after getting burnt by credit card companies disputing charges made by minors who did not have permission to use the cards.
In fact, PW's own Terms of state this about children, "You must be 13 years of age or older to create an Account. If you are 13 or over, but are under the age of 18, we require that you review these Terms with your parents or guardian to ensure they read and agree to them. If you are the parent of guardian of a user of our website and you have questions about this website or these terms, please contact us at tos@perfectworldinc.com."
That is just for creating an account, not even for playing one of their games. Again, children who are too young shouldn't be playing MMO's and certainly not without adequate parental supervision.
First of all children shouldn't be playing MMO's. That may be an unpopular thought, but any child too young to understand that the game has costs associated with it should not be playing it, and that is the parents responsibility to monitor not anyone else's.
Second, any child too young to understand the costs of an MMO that the parent lets play the MMO should be supervised. If they are not supervised then that again is the failure of the parent.
Third, no game I have ever played allows me to buy things like "Zen" without leaving the game and choosing a payment option and choosing an amount of currency I want to buy. All of these things should prevent a child who doesn't know any better from buying zen and thus spending money if left unsupervised. Some companies allow you to save payment methods for future use, but if you are worried about a child making unwanted purchases you should never use this option unless you are prepared to supervise their activities at all times.
Finally, if a child who doesn't know any better is playing an MMO where you have currency like Zen on the account and you are not supervising them, then it is your actions that allowed them to spend said currency, not the games.
I despise lockboxes, but they are not some hidden evil trying to trick children into spending thousands on them, there are plenty of ways to prevent children for spending said money, many of these methods are put into place by the game companies themselves after getting burnt by credit card companies disputing charges made by minors who did not have permission to use the cards.
In fact, PW's own Terms of state this about children, "You must be 13 years of age or older to create an Account. If you are 13 or over, but are under the age of 18, we require that you review these Terms with your parents or guardian to ensure they read and agree to them. If you are the parent of guardian of a user of our website and you have questions about this website or these terms, please contact us at tos@perfectworldinc.com."
That is just for creating an account, not even for playing one of their games. Again, children who are too young shouldn't be playing MMO's and certainly not without adequate parental supervision.
This is showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information, do some research and you will see how big companies target children to influence the parents etc.
I repeat lockboxes are more of the same to con the unwary, the internet is just too unregulated as of today compared to tv advertising.
The 13+ thing is just to get around certain laws and to protect their arses.
Lockboxes are like virtual scratch lottery tickets you need to spend real money and need to follow the same regulations IMHO.
For the love of all that is holy, please don't implement the stupid boxes!!!
And as a sidenote. I am a Dane and our government is actually looking into this lockbox thing and investigating if they would call it "gambling". If it is, it instantly becomes illegal here. So please. Stop it already Cryptic!
Don't be naive, do some research and you will see how big companies target children to influence the parents etc.
I repeat lockboxes are more of the same to con the unwary, the internet is just too unregulated as of today compared to tv advertising.
The 13+ thing is just to get around certain laws and to protect their arses.
Look children don't have to be allowed access to the internet or this game. Simple fact and parents have plenty of ways to prevent children, even teenagers from getting on the internet.
Yes the Internet is unregulated, but unless you give your child a credit card (yours or their own) they have no way of making purchases you do not agree with. If they are stealing your credit card to make these purchases then you have an other issue, and this is not something any games are telling children to do.
Yes of course they are covering their arses, why wouldn't they protect themselves? It is not their fault someone fails to properly prevent their child access to credit cards, they can't control this, so legally they put it in their EULA that you need to be 13 with parental permission or 18 without. If someone buys beer and their child takes some while they are not looking is it the beer companies fault that the parents were not supervising and controlling their children?
None of this is naivete, it is however naive to think that it is the job of game companies to police every action of someone's child. Trust me a company like Cryptic doesn't need money from children nor are they trying to scam it from children. Lockboxes tap into the drives of adults that say, "If I just open one more I might get X". Most people have this in them, it is how lottery companies make money. Some people have an addictive personality that will make them spend more, but it doesn't have to be lockboxes look at the people who have ruined their lives addicted to sub based games with no RM shops. Addiction is addiction and not the fault of someone else. Unless of course we decided to call all MMO companies drug pushers because they all make money off of these addicted people in so many different ways.
For the love of all that is holy, please don't implement the stupid boxes!!!
And as a sidenote. I am a Dane and our government is actually looking into this lockbox thing and investigating if they would call it "gambling". If it is, it instantly becomes illegal here. So please. Stop it already Cryptic!
Vires Animi
They make so much money from lock boxes that they would rather lose customers where it is illegal than stop selling them:
Look children don't have to be allowed access to the internet or this game. Simple fact and parents have plenty of ways to prevent children, even teenagers from getting on the internet.
Yes the Internet is unregulated, but unless you give your child a credit card (yours or their own) they have no way of making purchases you do not agree with. If they are stealing your credit card to make these purchases then you have an other issue, and this is not something any games are telling children to do.
Yes of course they are covering their arses, why wouldn't they protect themselves? It is not their fault someone fails to properly prevent their child access to credit cards, they can't control this, so legally they put it in their EULA that you need to be 13 with parental permission or 18 without. If someone buys beer and their child takes some while they are not looking is it the beer companies fault that the parents were not supervising and controlling their children?
None of this is naivete, it is however naive to think that it is the job of game companies to police every action of someone's child. Trust me a company like Cryptic doesn't need money from children nor are they trying to scam it from children. Lockboxes tap into the drives of adults that say, "If I just open one more I might get X". Most people have this in them, it is how lottery companies make money. Some people have an addictive personality that will make them spend more, but it doesn't have to be lockboxes look at the people who have ruined their lives addicted to sub based games with no RM shops. Addiction is addiction and not the fault of someone else. Unless of course we decided to call all MMO companies drug pushers because they all make money off of these addicted people in so many different ways.
In my opinion you are showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information, big companies have legal departments to show them how to get around certain laws and not be liable.
Sure parent should be watching their kids, does that mean teens and children can walk into a local shop and buy a beer or lottery tickets?
No it doesn't and things like lockboxes in mmo's need to have the same kind of regulations period.
The whole issue lockboxes brings up is far far worse in my opinion than the whole violence in video games issues that led to the ESRB rating system.
Kind of hate being in dev shoes when they are not even allowed to discuss their personal opinions on unofficial forums. Perhaps they should make proxy accounts and never ever tell they are devs living their life in perpetual fear like those FBI cops during mafia time...
...
The whole issue lockboxes brings up is far far worse in my opinion than the whole violence in video games issues that led to the ESRB rating system.
It is a big issue I agree, but violence issue is much more problematic. I don't think kids growing up playing these would actually be sympathetic to pain of others...
It is a big issue I agree, but violence issue is much more problematic. I don't think kids growing up playing these would actually be sympathetic to pain of others...
I don't agree about the violence issue being more problematic, I think people are just more aware of it.
Just walk into any bar and look at all those gambling devices and how much money they bring in.
In any giving time the likely hood of seeing addicts gambling their pay away is much higher than seeing two people engaged in fisticuffs.
Also the reasoning behind the ESRB rating is also valid for these lockboxes and the whole gambling issue. It's the same difference for a similar problem.
Kind of hate being in dev shoes when they are not even allowed to discuss their personal opinions on unofficial forums. Perhaps they should make proxy accounts and never ever tell they are devs living their life in perpetual fear like those FBI cops during mafia time...
He may have only been speculating, but absolutely no one from Cryptic of PW denied what he said was true. So if such a situation were to occur, his speculation would probably be accurate.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Look children don't have to be allowed access to the internet or this game. Simple fact and parents have plenty of ways to prevent children, even teenagers from getting on the internet.
Yes the Internet is unregulated, but unless you give your child a credit card (yours or their own) they have no way of making purchases you do not agree with. If they are stealing your credit card to make these purchases then you have an other issue, and this is not something any games are telling children to do.
Yes of course they are covering their arses, why wouldn't they protect themselves? It is not their fault someone fails to properly prevent their child access to credit cards, they can't control this, so legally they put it in their EULA that you need to be 13 with parental permission or 18 without. If someone buys beer and their child takes some while they are not looking is it the beer companies fault that the parents were not supervising and controlling their children?
None of this is naivete, it is however naive to think that it is the job of game companies to police every action of someone's child. Trust me a company like Cryptic doesn't need money from children nor are they trying to scam it from children. Lockboxes tap into the drives of adults that say, "If I just open one more I might get X". Most people have this in them, it is how lottery companies make money. Some people have an addictive personality that will make them spend more, but it doesn't have to be lockboxes look at the people who have ruined their lives addicted to sub based games with no RM shops. Addiction is addiction and not the fault of someone else. Unless of course we decided to call all MMO companies drug pushers because they all make money off of these addicted people in so many different ways.
Yes you are being naive, big companies have legal departments to show them how to get around certain laws and not be liable.
Sure parent should be watching their kids, does that mean teens and children can walk into a local shop and buy a beer or lottery tickets?
No it doesn't and things like lockboxes in mmo's need to have the same kind of regulations period.
The whole issue lockboxes brings up is far far worse in my opinion than the whole violence in video games issues that led to the ESRB rating system.
While I always appreciate people's opinions, negatively labeling other people is not nice. If you want to say something seems a certain way (naive in this example,) please say "In my opinion, this seems naive." Let the other person make their rebuttal and continue. While directly calling somebody this "term" may seem harmless, it can quickly escalate to "you're stupid" or even worse.
Thanks for the concerns folks, and please do continue the discussion.
...
In any giving time the likely hood of seeing addicts gambling their pay away is much higher than seeing two people engaged in fisticuffs.
...
The behavioral change need not be active as fistcuffs you put. It is more likely to be passive.
For example, when Evil dead movie was first screened, it is reported that many people fainted. It had warnings about heart attack and stuff.
Compare them to horror movies today and generation today? People are passively becoming more accepting to what would have been horrible a few decades ago.
That is why violence is quite a big issue. Gambling and addiction is a big issue too. The lowest on my list would be nudity when compared to big problems like violence, gambling and addiction.
While I always appreciate people's opinions, negatively labeling other people is not nice. If you want to say something seems a certain way (naive in this example,) please say "In my opinion, this seems naive." Let the other person make their rebuttal and continue. While directly calling somebody this "term" may seem harmless, it can quickly escalate to "you're stupid" or even worse.
Thanks for the concerns folks, and please do continue the discussion.
Saying "in my opinion" doesnt make something any nicer. Saying "in my opinion you are stupid" doesnt mean its not an insult, for example. So if people shouldnt call other people or their opinions naive, then they simply shouldnt do it period.
For some reason I was reminded of the D&D book of Vile darkness movie there is a scene with a undead demon child and well..I think they saw this youtube vid
One more thing to note is that it is about awareness and using intellectual discussions which can lead us to the right path. Case in study would be anti-D&D campaign in which it was linked to witches, demons and what-not : the studies which later prooved all that to be a misinformation campaign (lol).
The behavioral change need not be active as fistcuffs you put. It is more likely to be passive.
For example, when Evil dead movie was first screened, it is reported that many people fainted. It had warnings about heart attack and stuff.
Compare them to horror movies today and generation today? People are passively becoming more accepting to what would have been horrible a few decades ago.
That is why violence is quite a big issue. Gambling and addiction is a big issue too. The lowest on my list would be nudity when compared to big problems like violence, gambling and addiction.
Agreed but the very same can be said of the gambling issues we are talking about, and even moreso as I could say gambling can and very often does lead to violence but not so much the other way around.
Anyhoot my point was that gambling is as bad if not a worse issue and as such deserves an ESRB equivalent solution.
Funny thing this solution already exists it just hasn't been applied yet to this issue.
Funny thing this solution already exists it just hasn't been applied yet to this issue.
The reason ESRB was started after many games crossed the line. The lines may not have been crossed in terms of gambling as of now - also the reason being that the 'line' is not easy to perceive when talking about gambling. There have to be some games which clearly and stupidly cross the line so governments are forced to take note of the situation.
However a case in study is that in terms of violence, there were already internal systems in place for reputed video game companies (at that time: 3do, lucasarts etc.) So they were somewhat having some control over this internally. In terms of gambling, even if ESRB has not yet been applied, some internal control in place would be beneficial for cryptic as they can then label and market themselves as "responsible".
The reason ESRB was started after many games crossed the line. The lines may not have been crossed in terms of gambling as of now - also the reason being that the 'line' is not easy to perceive when talking about gambling. There have to be some games which clearly and stupidly cross the line so governments are forced to take note of the situation.
However a case in study is that in terms of violence, there were already internal systems in place for reputed video game companies (at that time: 3do, lucasarts etc.) So they were somewhat having some control over this internally. In terms of gambling, even if ESRB has not yet been applied, some internal control in place would be beneficial for cryptic as they can then label and market themselves as "responsible".
It was started after it became very obvious what was going on, around the mortal kombat era.
Government is always slow to act in these situations and will wait till it is "more obvious" to the general lay person to act on this. Just like what happened with the whole violence issue.
Like you say though if this is ignored by "you and me" or if others are "conditioned" to accept this for too many years this could potentially become acceptable.
Just take a look at the whole fast food generation, and yet still will some say this has nothing to do with children getting old people problems like diabetes etc.
To me lockboxes is stupidly crossing the line, I just think not too many people are aware of them though outside of mmo gamers.
Can a mod please delete the off topic posts talking about video game violence since this thread is about lock boxes?
It is not off-topic. We are discussing on the precedents of how and if gambling is made illegal. Also if it can be included inside the ESRB rating system.
It is not off-topic. We are discussing on the precedents of how and if gambling is made illegal. Also if it can be included inside the ESRB rating system.
Discussing whether lock boxes are gambling is ON topic. Discussing video game violence is OFF topic. Its pretty simple. So again, I request that a mode please delete the OFF topic posts about video game violence.
Like you say though if this is ignored by "you and me" or if others are "conditioned" to accept this for too many years this could potentially become acceptable.
...
I would say this part is getting more exposure these days. Addiction means loss in productivity and it is not beneficial to the government too. For example the recently released raiderz game contains warning about internet addiction on loading screen.
I would say people are getting more aware of various dangers as they are using these more. However gambling is a bigger issue as if any legal vent for gambling is there, government is duty bound to close it. Even if they are slow or unwilling, they have to at least publically say that gambling is wrong. But a proper legal study should be done into it along with ethical principles as it is not just about lockboxes, but the whole issue is about defining what gambling in gaming means.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
We can appreciate the comparisons of how things develop. So saying X caused Y in regards to violence and regulation and this Lock-box X could cause Y regulation is a fair comparison. Considering the other posts we've pulled, we know when we have to stop a reply. We're not going to edit posts because they make allegories or other users decide it's off topic. As a matter of fact, we take editing seriously and would rather not touch a post whatsoever. Please don't use us in the other extreme and request us when you think something has "gone the wrong way." Ask us if it has...in PM.
We can appreciate the comparisons of how things develop.
Just for clarification, who all are you speaking for when you say "we"? Perfect World? Cryptic? The other volunteer mods? Or your own personal opinion? I just want to clarify if everything you just said about how violence and the ESRB relates to this lock box discussion is official policy.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Just for clarification, who all are you speaking for when you say "we"? Perfect World? Cryptic? The other volunteer mods? Or your own personal opinion? I just want to clarify if everything you just said about how violence and the ESRB relates to this lock box discussion is official policy.
We as in the moderators in regards to requests for off topic editing of posts.
So we should instead discuss here how the possible defenses against lockboxes are flawed and how they actually are unethical. At least we will have high moral grounds :-)
Ok. I will be the sacrificial lamb(or was that goat... or tiefling?) and go first.
My defense in favor of lockboxes is that "they are optional" and you are not "required" to buy them if you don't want to.
They are the same as random drops in other games (e.g. in wow you pay the same subscription but your character may have different gear depending on drops and your actions in game). By that logic subscription is unethical.
Buying keys is fine as long as lockboxes are not on sale.
The point to above post was to gather arguments against the best plausible defense against lockboxes. Seeing as to how we didn't get any arguments against that thinking yet, I will myself put forth some points.
- Even when lockboxes are optional, so is gambling in real life. But gambling is controlled. This is because it exploits certain behavior to invest in a loss-making venture. It is addictive too, which means that many people trying it for recreation may not find themselves unable to leave it making it "not really optional" for them.
- Your number of random drops and their quality is not controlled by how much money you invest in them unlike lockboxes.
Number of keys relate directly to amount of money invested and number of chances at loot. Hence buying the keys is the same as buying lockboxes.
Comments
Sorry but I just have to LOL.
Big companies don't baby proof anything they do the opposite in fact. In the usa big companies send market specialist to primary schools to do studies on what children like so that they may "target" them easier.
It's not simply that parents want to blame others, it's more like being a parent has become a nearly impossible task because most people in society would deny taking responsibility for their actions and how it affects others.
There's a saying "it takes a village". Untill people stop being selfish and remember this it will never end well for todays youth.
Link to show how much big companies "baby proof"
Link
Link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMDPql6rweo
Lockboxes and the like are just more of the same, big companies taking advantage of those that are to young to know better.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Second, any child too young to understand the costs of an MMO that the parent lets play the MMO should be supervised. If they are not supervised then that again is the failure of the parent.
Third, no game I have ever played allows me to buy things like "Zen" without leaving the game and choosing a payment option and choosing an amount of currency I want to buy. All of these things should prevent a child who doesn't know any better from buying zen and thus spending money if left unsupervised. Some companies allow you to save payment methods for future use, but if you are worried about a child making unwanted purchases you should never use this option unless you are prepared to supervise their activities at all times.
Finally, if a child who doesn't know any better is playing an MMO where you have currency like Zen on the account and you are not supervising them, then it is your actions that allowed them to spend said currency, not the games.
I despise lockboxes, but they are not some hidden evil trying to trick children into spending thousands on them, there are plenty of ways to prevent children for spending said money, many of these methods are put into place by the game companies themselves after getting burnt by credit card companies disputing charges made by minors who did not have permission to use the cards.
In fact, PW's own Terms of state this about children, "You must be 13 years of age or older to create an Account. If you are 13 or over, but are under the age of 18, we require that you review these Terms with your parents or guardian to ensure they read and agree to them. If you are the parent of guardian of a user of our website and you have questions about this website or these terms, please contact us at tos@perfectworldinc.com."
That is just for creating an account, not even for playing one of their games. Again, children who are too young shouldn't be playing MMO's and certainly not without adequate parental supervision.
This is showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information, do some research and you will see how big companies target children to influence the parents etc.
I repeat lockboxes are more of the same to con the unwary, the internet is just too unregulated as of today compared to tv advertising.
The 13+ thing is just to get around certain laws and to protect their arses.
Lockboxes are like virtual scratch lottery tickets you need to spend real money and need to follow the same regulations IMHO.
Edited for the powers that be
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
And as a sidenote. I am a Dane and our government is actually looking into this lockbox thing and investigating if they would call it "gambling". If it is, it instantly becomes illegal here. So please. Stop it already Cryptic!
Vires Animi
Look children don't have to be allowed access to the internet or this game. Simple fact and parents have plenty of ways to prevent children, even teenagers from getting on the internet.
Yes the Internet is unregulated, but unless you give your child a credit card (yours or their own) they have no way of making purchases you do not agree with. If they are stealing your credit card to make these purchases then you have an other issue, and this is not something any games are telling children to do.
Yes of course they are covering their arses, why wouldn't they protect themselves? It is not their fault someone fails to properly prevent their child access to credit cards, they can't control this, so legally they put it in their EULA that you need to be 13 with parental permission or 18 without. If someone buys beer and their child takes some while they are not looking is it the beer companies fault that the parents were not supervising and controlling their children?
None of this is naivete, it is however naive to think that it is the job of game companies to police every action of someone's child. Trust me a company like Cryptic doesn't need money from children nor are they trying to scam it from children. Lockboxes tap into the drives of adults that say, "If I just open one more I might get X". Most people have this in them, it is how lottery companies make money. Some people have an addictive personality that will make them spend more, but it doesn't have to be lockboxes look at the people who have ruined their lives addicted to sub based games with no RM shops. Addiction is addiction and not the fault of someone else. Unless of course we decided to call all MMO companies drug pushers because they all make money off of these addicted people in so many different ways.
For anyone here not familiar with STO forums, I can refer them to this online article.
If denmark passes a law like that, I am sure other EU countries will follow suit...
They make so much money from lock boxes that they would rather lose customers where it is illegal than stop selling them:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/15/star-trek-online-dev-not-concerned-with-losing-global-playabilit/
In my opinion you are showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information, big companies have legal departments to show them how to get around certain laws and not be liable.
Sure parent should be watching their kids, does that mean teens and children can walk into a local shop and buy a beer or lottery tickets?
No it doesn't and things like lockboxes in mmo's need to have the same kind of regulations period.
The whole issue lockboxes brings up is far far worse in my opinion than the whole violence in video games issues that led to the ESRB rating system.
Edited to appease the powers that be
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Not really.
Kind of hate being in dev shoes when they are not even allowed to discuss their personal opinions on unofficial forums. Perhaps they should make proxy accounts and never ever tell they are devs living their life in perpetual fear like those FBI cops during mafia time...
It is a big issue I agree, but violence issue is much more problematic. I don't think kids growing up playing these would actually be sympathetic to pain of others...
I don't agree about the violence issue being more problematic, I think people are just more aware of it.
Just walk into any bar and look at all those gambling devices and how much money they bring in.
In any giving time the likely hood of seeing addicts gambling their pay away is much higher than seeing two people engaged in fisticuffs.
Also the reasoning behind the ESRB rating is also valid for these lockboxes and the whole gambling issue. It's the same difference for a similar problem.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
He may have only been speculating, but absolutely no one from Cryptic of PW denied what he said was true. So if such a situation were to occur, his speculation would probably be accurate.
While I always appreciate people's opinions, negatively labeling other people is not nice. If you want to say something seems a certain way (naive in this example,) please say "In my opinion, this seems naive." Let the other person make their rebuttal and continue. While directly calling somebody this "term" may seem harmless, it can quickly escalate to "you're stupid" or even worse.
Thanks for the concerns folks, and please do continue the discussion.
The behavioral change need not be active as fistcuffs you put. It is more likely to be passive.
For example, when Evil dead movie was first screened, it is reported that many people fainted. It had warnings about heart attack and stuff.
Compare them to horror movies today and generation today? People are passively becoming more accepting to what would have been horrible a few decades ago.
That is why violence is quite a big issue. Gambling and addiction is a big issue too. The lowest on my list would be nudity when compared to big problems like violence, gambling and addiction.
Saying "in my opinion" doesnt make something any nicer. Saying "in my opinion you are stupid" doesnt mean its not an insult, for example. So if people shouldnt call other people or their opinions naive, then they simply shouldnt do it period.
This is a very interesting discussion, but let's leave the insults out. If we can't play nice here, we won't play at all- end of story.
If you disagree with another poster, do so respectfully so as to foster better discussion.
Let this be the last that need be said on the topic of name calling.
@Effreet in game
Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct. Learn them, Love them
When they might just "kill" to get that product.
For some reason I was reminded of the D&D book of Vile darkness movie there is a scene with a undead demon child and well..I think they saw this youtube vid
ok, that was really scary!
p.s. lol, I always thought naive was intended to be a word like "cute" or "too innocent". Maybe I was wrong.
Agreed but the very same can be said of the gambling issues we are talking about, and even moreso as I could say gambling can and very often does lead to violence but not so much the other way around.
Anyhoot my point was that gambling is as bad if not a worse issue and as such deserves an ESRB equivalent solution.
Funny thing this solution already exists it just hasn't been applied yet to this issue.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
The reason ESRB was started after many games crossed the line. The lines may not have been crossed in terms of gambling as of now - also the reason being that the 'line' is not easy to perceive when talking about gambling. There have to be some games which clearly and stupidly cross the line so governments are forced to take note of the situation.
However a case in study is that in terms of violence, there were already internal systems in place for reputed video game companies (at that time: 3do, lucasarts etc.) So they were somewhat having some control over this internally. In terms of gambling, even if ESRB has not yet been applied, some internal control in place would be beneficial for cryptic as they can then label and market themselves as "responsible".
It was started after it became very obvious what was going on, around the mortal kombat era.
Government is always slow to act in these situations and will wait till it is "more obvious" to the general lay person to act on this. Just like what happened with the whole violence issue.
Like you say though if this is ignored by "you and me" or if others are "conditioned" to accept this for too many years this could potentially become acceptable.
Just take a look at the whole fast food generation, and yet still will some say this has nothing to do with children getting old people problems like diabetes etc.
To me lockboxes is stupidly crossing the line, I just think not too many people are aware of them though outside of mmo gamers.
This isn't off topic it is being used as a comparison to the issue under discussion as such it is very relevant.
anyhoot laters I'm going play ball with my son outside!
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
It is not off-topic. We are discussing on the precedents of how and if gambling is made illegal. Also if it can be included inside the ESRB rating system.
Discussing whether lock boxes are gambling is ON topic. Discussing video game violence is OFF topic. Its pretty simple. So again, I request that a mode please delete the OFF topic posts about video game violence.
I would say this part is getting more exposure these days. Addiction means loss in productivity and it is not beneficial to the government too. For example the recently released raiderz game contains warning about internet addiction on loading screen.
I would say people are getting more aware of various dangers as they are using these more. However gambling is a bigger issue as if any legal vent for gambling is there, government is duty bound to close it. Even if they are slow or unwilling, they have to at least publically say that gambling is wrong. But a proper legal study should be done into it along with ethical principles as it is not just about lockboxes, but the whole issue is about defining what gambling in gaming means.
Just for clarification, who all are you speaking for when you say "we"? Perfect World? Cryptic? The other volunteer mods? Or your own personal opinion? I just want to clarify if everything you just said about how violence and the ESRB relates to this lock box discussion is official policy.
We as in the moderators in regards to requests for off topic editing of posts.
The point to above post was to gather arguments against the best plausible defense against lockboxes. Seeing as to how we didn't get any arguments against that thinking yet, I will myself put forth some points.
- Even when lockboxes are optional, so is gambling in real life. But gambling is controlled. This is because it exploits certain behavior to invest in a loss-making venture. It is addictive too, which means that many people trying it for recreation may not find themselves unable to leave it making it "not really optional" for them.
- Your number of random drops and their quality is not controlled by how much money you invest in them unlike lockboxes.
Number of keys relate directly to amount of money invested and number of chances at loot. Hence buying the keys is the same as buying lockboxes.
p.s. yeah, just talking to myself *sigh*