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Please do not neglect PvP

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  • kronarchykronarchy Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I may want to just do 1v1 PvP and get piled by 20 people which is all fine except they normally then get vocal on how great they are for molesting me 20v1.

    ah, now that brings back fond memories of wandering around the RvR lakes solo on my Blackguard in warhammer.
    of course, they were entirely justified for getting vocal about managing to kill me with only twenty players. :p
  • rendalynrendalyn Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    torskaldr wrote: »
    I don't want to see standard mmo style pvp in the game. It's been done to death (WoW, RIFT, NCSoft games, etc).

    If there is any pvp I would want to see it staged in arenas like gladiatorial combat (borrowing from Dark Sun) where people could watch and bet. There would not be balancing for the arena as some classes would do better than others.

    Another could be bare fist fights in some taverns and such. Again there could be spectators and betting.

    I think some systems like that which are instanced and controlled could add immersion, diversion, and depth to the game world. Standard mmo pvp - class nerfing, endless balance chasing pvp.... No Thank You!

    Yeah! what he said!
  • zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited August 2012
    torskaldr wrote: »
    I don't want to see standard mmo style pvp in the game. It's been done to death (WoW, RIFT, NCSoft games, etc).

    If there is any pvp I would want to see it staged in arenas like gladiatorial combat (borrowing from Dark Sun) where people could watch and bet. There would not be balancing for the arena as some classes would do better than others.

    Another could be bare fist fights in some taverns and such. Again there could be spectators and betting.

    I think some systems like that which are instanced and controlled could add immersion, diversion, and depth to the game world. Standard mmo pvp - class nerfing, endless balance chasing pvp.... No Thank You!

    This style of PvP would be the only type of PvP that I would agree with having in a D&D environment. Anything else to me, is a waste of resources that could be better spent on all the rest of the aspects that D&D has to offer. PvP is an extremely minor aspect, one so minor that it is almost non-existent in PnP D&D. If I wanted to PvP and thump my chest, I'd go play Halo or LoL. I'm here for the D&D, not PvP.
  • kronarchykronarchy Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    zebular wrote: »
    PvP is an extremely minor aspect, one so minor that it is almost non-existent in PnP D&D... I'm here for the D&D, not PvP.

    PvP is a minor aspect in D&D because the average D&D game rarely has more than a handfull of players.
    this will not be the case here. this will not only be a D&D game, it will be a MMO D&D game. whenever such game bring large numbers of players together, those players want to interact with eachother on a large scale.

    some of that interaction might encompase something like a guild gathering all its members into the center of town for a dance. or two players who met ingame staging an ingame wedding with their ingame friends. or in game memorials for players who have passed on (i have attended one such memorial that had in excess of two hundred players attending).
    these are not aspects of D&D. these are aspects of MMOs. likewise with PvP. your personal attendance is not required, but all of the above stand a high likelyhood of occuring at some point during the games lifecycle.

    much like RPing, some players will engange in pvp (or RP), some wont. for those players that have no intention of RPing, they generaly leave the RPers alone. however this does not seem to be the case with regards to pvp.
    please, if you have nothing constructive to add to a discussion regard pvp, then leave the thread alone.
  • aeroth001aeroth001 Member Posts: 420 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2012
    nimloh wrote: »
    I don't mind PvP as long as it is not built into a competitive system with rewards. I think they should make a few "RvR lakes" similar to Warhammer Online and let players fight over control points. Give some good XP for kills and for initiating whatever control mechanics are in place. Give them some decent gold and useful loot items (maybe crafting stuff).

    Don't however build a complete, parallel-to-PvE, competitive system where the gameplay and class design are built with PvP in mind. It will screw everything up and nothing will be great in the end.

    If it had rewards what would be the problem ?:|
    It must have rewards and competitive system or is **** pvp.
    I am a competitive player i want to pwn noobs and be rewarded and cheered and people know my name and bow before me
  • zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited August 2012
    kronarchy wrote: »
    PvP is a minor aspect in D&D because the average D&D game rarely has more than a handfull of players.
    this will not be the case here. this will not only be a D&D game, it will be a MMO D&D game. whenever such game bring large numbers of players together, those players want to interact with eachother on a large scale.

    some of that interaction might encompase something like a guild gathering all its members into the center of town for a dance. or two players who met ingame staging an ingame wedding with their ingame friends. or in game memorials for players who have passed on (i have attended one such memorial that had in excess of two hundred players attending).
    these are not aspects of D&D. these are aspects of MMOs. likewise with PvP. your personal attendance is not required, but all of the above stand a high likelyhood of occuring at some point during the games lifecycle.

    much like RPing, some players will engange in pvp (or RP), some wont. for those players that have no intention of RPing, they generaly leave the RPers alone. however this does not seem to be the case with regards to pvp.
    please, if you have nothing constructive to add to a discussion regard pvp, then leave the thread alone.
    I am sorry for my disagreement with your opinion. That does not give you any right to say that my opinion is not welcome here. You should instead learn to understand what constructive input and critism is rather than dismissing a person's opinions as a forego of such just because they are not similar to your own opinion.
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,369 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    In MMO's which are PvE with added features that are PvP this tends to be dominant. I've stated in other threads that even my first experience on a minecraft server was walking out of town limits to be slaughtered by some geared up guy. Obviously Minecraft's not an MMO but PvE Games PvP tends to be limited to three PvP styles.

    You seem to not understand the audience gathering here ambisinisterr.

    Neverwinter is not going to be like any other MMO, save for its kindred spirit mmo, DDO. These two games are both uniquely different than every other mmo that matters, in one very important matter. They don't just make up their own rules. They are mmos that need to follow, or at least very closely resemble a pre-defined, and established set of rules that has been in place years before we will ever get to swing our first weapon in Neverwinter..

    It is because of this that the needs of a D&D online audience will always differ from those gamers of your typical mmo market.

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  • kronarchykronarchy Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    zebular wrote: »
    I am sorry for my disagreement with your opinion. That does not give you any right to say that my opinion is not welcome here. You should instead learn to understand what constructive input and critism is rather than dismissing a person's opinions as a forego of such just because they are not similar to your own opinion.

    i apologise for singling you out for my post above, your post was less deserving of my response than some of the others i've seen in here. i guess i'm just frustrated to see all the hate from players that have no intention of participating in pvp anyway.
    You seem to not understand the audience gathering here ambisinisterr.

    Neverwinter is not going to be like any other MMO, save for its kindred spirit mmo, DDO. These two games are both uniquely different than every other mmo that matters, in one very important matter. They don't just make up their own rules. They are mmos that need to follow, or at least very closely resemble a pre-defined, and established set of rules that has been in place years before we will ever get to swing our first weapon in Neverwinter..

    It is because of this that the needs of a D&D online audience will always differ from those gamers of your typical mmo market.

    warhammer likewise had established rules, lore, dedicated fan base, ect.
    you have to be prepared that some aspects of a table top game wont translate to digital well, and other aspects will be altered completely when the number of players increases from five to five thousand.
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,369 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    kronarchy wrote: »
    warhammer likewise had established rules, lore, dedicated fan base, ect.
    you have to be prepared that some aspects of a table top game wont translate to digital well, and other aspects will be altered completely when the number of players increases from five to five thousand.

    I'm well prepared, beyond your wildest imagination.

    7 straight years of DDO qualifies me as good as any on this topic. What will and wont transfer well has nothing to do with PvP. They are two entirely separate matters. DDO gamers have all been to the mountaintop before (with both matters) ...

    Expectedly, you missed my entire point.

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  • ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited August 2012
    You seem to not understand the audience gathering here ambisinisterr.

    I do understand actually. The people requesting PvP here are expecting it to be incorporated as a good part of the game which it isn't in the D&D rules but have been in other MMO's. Hopefully PvP players will be less immature on a D&D game as I found in NWN but the typical MMO is flooded with PvP players who want nothing to do with the game and I doubt it'll be much different with NWO.

    With the style of gameplay Cryptic is giving out, Action Combat as they call it, don't be surprised if they drag in a lot of players who don't know the difference between D&D and a funny taste in their mouth.

    DDO also truly can't be brought into the topic as having PvP because they made basically the worst PvP environment I have ever seen.
    That means Cryptic is going to be the front-runner. I am pretty sure they know the opinions quite clear and won't be doing what Turbine did. Maybe they'll do something new altogether but it's unlikely. It's more likely they will make a variant of one to three of those PvP styles I described as seen in other MMO's.

    The rules placed on them by Wizards are not very known. For all we know they could want to branch out and get more PvP involved since as somebody recently stated PvP doesn't work very well in PnP due to the limited player nature of the game.
    The D&D rule system lends itself extremely well to PvP Combat but not in a PvE based game. There's nothing saying the D&D combat rules couldn't be used as they are in games like LoL or FPS. I think players even developed something like that in NWN where players started out at level 20 with gear in order to just PvP.


    I love D&D and consider it to be the rule system every made up, mock-up of a game strives to achieve on it's own. I understand the D&D audience, I'd be happier if PvP wasn't even in the game, but I also understand the MMO audience. Cryptic is going to have to balance between that.
    Don't think this audience is the NWN audience. I wish it was but it isn't.
    Compromises must be made. And while the is the feintest chance of being proven wrong I don't think it will happen. Every new MMO says they are nothing like the others. Every release they claim to be brand new to the gaming industry and the rest of them will be playing catch-up but if you look things up there's always some other game that already incorporated that system.

    Know that Cryptic will put a unique spin on D&D and MMO's which will be great in it's own right. But don't fool yourself into thinking think they will be so revolutionary that NWO will be featuring MMO v2.0.
    Maybe I'm wrong...but every other MMO has claimed to be MMO V2.0 before it's release too...and obviously you don't feel that way about them.
  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    That means Cryptic is going to be the front-runner. I am pretty sure they know the opinions quite clear and won't be doing what Turbine did. Maybe they'll do something new altogether but it's unlikely. It's more likely they will make a variant of one to three of those PvP styles I described as seen in other MMO's.

    Now sure why, but for some reason I expect to see something very similar to the C9 PvP system, be that for better or for worse.
    The D&D rule system lends itself extremely well to PvP Combat but not in a PvE based game.

    The bigger issue here is that basic PnP D&D is turn-based, while NWO and most other MMOs are real-time, so very little of the balancing carries over. You can make monster AI behave in a way to simulate an environment more similar to the tabletop combat, but that won't work for players. Any PvP will be button-mashy rather than tactical, unless we're talking party vs party PvP.
    There's nothing saying the D&D combat rules couldn't be used as they are in games like LoL or FPS.

    I always get a funny taste in the mouth when people talk about LoL as a trend-setter rather than the clone it is b:angry
  • dridiadridia Banned Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Rather have no PvP..D&D is a adventure(PvE) game ,most MMO's ive seen with PvP turn into a big 12yr old whinefest! Keep it true to D&D plz
  • kronarchykronarchy Member Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    dridia wrote: »
    ..D&D is a adventure(PvE) game...! Keep it true to D&D plz

    do your pnp D&D quests come from a guy with a glowing exlamation mark above his head?
    do you often have quests to collect 10 wolf tails or kill 7 bandit swordsman/5 bandit archers/3 bandit lieutenants/1 bandit leader in your pnp D&D games?
    do the wolves your farming for tails stand around in a small clearing within sight of the quest giver and not run away when you start killing them? or only attack one at a time as the wolves 3 feet away from the one you attacked dont agro?

    do you have a hundred thousand individual players sitting around your dining room table each with their own character sheet, that you can trade items with?

    i'm getting tired of seeing the "keep it true to D&D" line in regards to pvp when pve will only bear a passing resemblance to pnp D&D.

    also, the D&D that YOU play may bear very little resemblance to the D&D that someone else plays even though you use exactly the same source books.
    each game of D&D is what the individual DMs makes it. DMs are quite able to throw parts they dont like, or add their own ideas for the games they run.
  • vindiconvindicon Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    ausdoerrt wrote: »
    I always get a funny taste in the mouth when people talk about LoL as a trend-setter rather than the clone it is b:angry

    Because it is TOTALLY a clone of DOTA...

    Just as all modern fps are clones of DOOM...

    Just as D&D itself is a clone of the very first tabletop RPGs...

    ..Fanboys...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • torskaldrtorskaldr Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    vindicon wrote: »
    Because it is TOTALLY a clone of DOTA...

    Just as all modern fps are clones of DOOM...

    Just as D&D itself is a clone of the very first tabletop RPGs...

    ..Fanboys...

    Err, you meant Wolfenstein right? b:chuckle
  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    vindicon wrote: »
    Because it is TOTALLY a clone of DOTA...

    Yes, yes it is. It's almost identical in gameplay, the primary map is identical with minor changes, and iirc the devs making LoL also made the original DoTA, so...

    It's as much a DoTA clone as half the MMOs today are WoW clones, and Torchlight/Titan Quest are Diablo clones.
  • qumi0qumi0 Member Posts: 154 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    kronarchy wrote: »
    do your pnp D&D quests come from a guy with a glowing exlamation mark above his head?
    do you often have quests to collect 10 wolf tails or kill 7 bandit swordsman/5 bandit archers/3 bandit lieutenants/1 bandit leader in your pnp D&D games?
    do the wolves your farming for tails stand around in a small clearing within sight of the quest giver and not run away when you start killing them? or only attack one at a time as the wolves 3 feet away from the one you attacked dont agro?

    do you have a hundred thousand individual players sitting around your dining room table each with their own character sheet, that you can trade items with?

    i'm getting tired of seeing the "keep it true to D&D" line in regards to pvp when pve will only bear a passing resemblance to pnp D&D.

    also, the D&D that YOU play may bear very little resemblance to the D&D that someone else plays even though you use exactly the same source books.
    each game of D&D is what the individual DMs makes it. DMs are quite able to throw parts they dont like, or add their own ideas for the games they run.

    Actually, yes - there are thousands of individuals playing a one game of DnD. These are special events made by WotC - the joint campaign, "Living..." something, don't remember. As in MMO, those ppl don't sit by one table, but play in their respective homes/shops. Then, their characters are kind of official and might even affect the lore. So yeah, I repeat "keep it tru to D&D" ;-)

    PvP is very tricky and with the 4ed balance it would be disasterous to have a solo kind of pvp. Group PvP would be a better idea, a bit like LOL or DOTA maybe.

    BTW. Saying that LOL is a DOTA clone is like saying that Diablo is Baldurs Gate clone. Both are more or less the same genre, RPG or DOTA (which I guess is also the name of the genre), but they are not clones.

    There are many differences in mechanics between the games and I tell you - it's different. Very different. In DOTA you have only mana resource, you have Strength, Agility, Intelligence stats. You have mini-stuns and more item based powers, you can cut and destroy the map (trees). It's a very different play experience. Summoner spells are also unique to LOL, while curier is to DOTA. And there's much more...
  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    They should add brawling arenas in taverns, fight club style. "Naked dwarves only" b:laugh
  • vindiconvindicon Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    ausdoerrt wrote: »
    Yes, yes it is. It's almost identical in gameplay, the primary map is identical with minor changes, and iirc the devs making LoL also made the original DoTA, so...

    It's as much a DoTA clone as half the MMOs today are WoW clones, and Torchlight/Titan Quest are Diablo clones.

    Ok, in that case D&D is a chainmail clone. And CoD is a DOOM clone. And let's not forget that WOW is an Everquest clone.

    Someone needs to leans what the term "genre" means.
    In all FPS you play in first person and shoot people with a gun.
    In all RPGs you have characters that progress through the means of skills/levels/items etc.
    In all MOBAs you choose a preset character and fight in some sort of arena.

    I fail to see how this constitutes cloning...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • aandrethegiantaandrethegiant Member Posts: 3,369 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    vindicon wrote: »
    Ok, in that case D&D is a chainmail clone. And CoD is a DOOM clone. And let's not forget that WOW is an Everquest clone.

    Someone needs to leans what the term "genre" means.
    In all FPS you play in first person and shoot people with a gun.
    In all RPGs you have characters that progress through the means of skills/levels/items etc.
    In all MOBAs you choose a preset character and fight in some sort of arena.

    I fail to see how this constitutes cloning...

    What exactly does "cloning" add to the discussion of "neglecting" PvP in Neverwinter?

    First came Pong, than came Zorks, then came MMOs and we all became dorks.

    That's what little we remember.

    Tennis for Two, Vindicon?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6mu5B-YZU8&feature=player_embedded

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  • ausdoerrtausdoerrt Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    What exactly does "cloning" add to the discussion of "neglecting" PvP in Neverwinter?

    First came Pong, than came Zorks, then came MMOs and we all became dorks.

    Cause a snarky comment goes a long way :p

    And I'm sure I was a dork before MMOs b:victory
  • lorddevilkunlorddevilkun Member Posts: 60
    edited August 2012
    kronarchy wrote: »
    do you often have quests to collect 10 wolf tails or kill 7 bandit swordsman/5 bandit archers/3 bandit lieutenants/1 bandit leader in your pnp D&D games?
    do the wolves your farming for tails stand around in a small clearing within sight of the quest giver and not run away when you start killing them? or only attack one at a time as the wolves 3 feet away from the one you attacked dont agro?

    Nope- and neither did DDO, and I sure hope that isn't your idea of what a good NWO game will be. In fact- you pretty much just reinforced people's point of why they are hoping it won't be like a typical mmo where the norm is boring, repeated quests. That's the exact reasoning behind what people are saying- and as DDO proved you do not have to go with the 'kill x of y' quests being the dominant part of the game's grinding.

    DDO showed you could make an mmo that was nothing but 'adventures' in the very literal sense- killing x of y extra creatures was a way to get bonus xp, or part of outdoor areas- but it was never necessary, and it was very, very easy to get to max level and fully gear without ever doing kill x quests (though there was quite a bit of specifc area grinding at level 20, but that's to be expected in any pve centric game). The game did have problems- xp loss, extremely heavy grouping and instancing, stiffness and moderate controls (despite being one of the first good actual action adventure MMORPGs), and very high skill ramp and knowledge needed as early as level 8, as well as confusing maps and mazelike locations, and necessary familiarity with dungeons in order to progress.

    Point is- DDO had many faults/things that disinterested people- but especially for NWO, one big success of the game was that it got away from the typical mob grinding that makes up most mmos even to this day and replaced it instead with unique and very, very diverse adventures. NWO has the option to do the same.



    As for pvp- it's not in at launch, it doesn't really fit the genre especially considering there likely aren't factions or evil alignments (and most of the time, good/neutral aren't at war with each other). It's difficult to put into a game, likely even more so for an action RPG- and over the past few years it has been doing many games far worse than good as it makes for a very angry forum community, sucks up resources, becomes the focus of reviews in a negative way and eventually starts to balance and ruin the pve aspect of the game. I have yet to see a game do pve and pvp well- almost all successful games have focused largely on one aspect and either ignored or messed up the other one.
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