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Pay To Win, where do we draw the line?
foodle
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
Im not saying NWN is pay to win and I hope PW does not cross that line. My question is for you, when does a game become pay to win? This game being 100% F2P, at what point do you say "I wont play this game!" because the advantages are to heavy in the cash shop.
For me its when they add combat buffs (+ to damage and crit, heal and mana pots) and items that are equal or more powerful then the top end gear you earn in the game. IMO the min the above is added to a game, I dont care how long I have played it, I walk away. What items do you not want to see in the zen shop?
What I would like to see is mostly cosmetic items and time saving items. EXP boosts, char slots, non combat pets, name changes and general fluff. What items do you want to see in the zen shop?
NWN being 100% F2P we know they will need to make money somewhere but I think PW needs to know as customers and gamers we do have expectations. Whats yours?
For me its when they add combat buffs (+ to damage and crit, heal and mana pots) and items that are equal or more powerful then the top end gear you earn in the game. IMO the min the above is added to a game, I dont care how long I have played it, I walk away. What items do you not want to see in the zen shop?
What I would like to see is mostly cosmetic items and time saving items. EXP boosts, char slots, non combat pets, name changes and general fluff. What items do you want to see in the zen shop?
NWN being 100% F2P we know they will need to make money somewhere but I think PW needs to know as customers and gamers we do have expectations. Whats yours?
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Side note, when did Neverwinter be shortened to NWN when I thought Neverwinter Nights was NWN?
Pay to win, contrary to popular belief, is not being able to just buy power, not as long as it's easily obtainable through gameplay. They could even release gear in the cashshop, but really, if the same gear is obtainable through a few dungeon runs then it's not pay to win... and that's pretty much the model you see nowadays in most FPS - you can buy stuff with money or you can play a few matches and unlock them.
And, honestly, it's an RPG. Unless it's a heavily PvP-focused RPG, like say Ultima - which NW is very obviously not trying to be like - then noone should give two damns about it being pay to win or not. As long as it's not unbalancing to the point where it causes problems even in PVE, why should I care if the guy next to me bought a sword that deals more damage than mine? Since it's an RPG, you are bound to have infinite people being above you in terms of level and gear anyway, what's a few more gonna do? Is the dragon next door gonna call it unfair? Or should I complain because I'm rank 16500 when I deserved rank 16000?
And even in case I'm playing for the top of the rankings... since when did anyone take seriously the competitive rankings in RPGs? If there is any form of competition that is more inherently unbalanced than PVP in an RPG, it's only dicerolling. And not by much mind you...
It hasn't. It is used this way mistakenly by those who do not realize that - even though this is based on the continuation of the history of Neverwinter and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting of "Neverwinter," it is not "NWN3". It is simply, "Neverwinter," or "NW" or "NWO" for short. I, personally, prefer "NWO" as it is synonymous with "New World Order" which Neverwinter could very well be percieved as a new world order for MMORPGs, if done right.
Anything that directly affects balance and game-play mechanics, such as magical weapons and armors, extra ability score points, new abilities and skills, new races and adventures and the like - would all be unacceptable to me.
I believe that the cash shop should remain cosmetic fluff in majority while also having things like account perks and unlocks. Such things like non-statistical clothing for appearance and customization, character appearance changes, extra character slots, non-combat pets and companions, player housing decorations and amenities, character respecs, character renames, server transfers and other similar things - these would all be acceptable.
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If they decide to put performance based gear on shop, then the stats of that gear should be equivalent to what others can grind and get (not ultra grind but okay okay grind). That way, when other friends etc. would be getting that gear, I could get my hands on that gear in the same time as them.
If they have some stat boosting shop only stuff, we should be able to sell it in auction house (though I would hate such stuff).
I am not end-game or performance savvy, in fact the toons in DDO I liked most were the nerfed toons([originally called rolled PC in which you roll dice once for stats] more challenge that way). So this difference probably won't affect me. But it is very important that major player base doesn't see the game as p2w as it would mean a lot of players will leave.
This sadly means there's no formula for it. It's a fine line to walk but one that should be easy to see for the majority of developers when releasing content without staring at money signs.
One of the other MMO's recently went from refusing to implement micro-transactions to making more micro-transactions than any other content in the last year or so. This game is no longer fun because they through years of work down the drain by selling experience outright, experience boosts and simply advertizing the hell out of all the goodies you can buy rather than all the fun you can have playing the game.
I'm all for selling "fluff." Sell armor that looks better, additional textures or even convenience items like bags/banks/teleports. And even if the game is built from the ground up based on experience/reward buffs such as League of Legends I don't feel like there's an unfair advantage.
If we want a more definitive way to tell if they've crossed the line I think the easiest way to know is to ask this question:
"Would those who enjoy it defend it by saying 'it's just a game?' "
This is the defence I see when I feel games cross the line and become pay to win. It's an illogical and meaningless defence towards feeling the game's not worth playing to play but it is how people who pay to win (normally impatient, immature 'kids') respond to content that belittles the integrity of games.
If the content can be defended for what it is then it's fine. However if it has to be defended as 'it's just a game so it shouldn't effect you' then the content is pay to win.
Good: The bag holds content that tends to clutter up inventory slots. If you want you could spend more time carrying the items back to base but it will cost more time.
Bad: It's just a game! Why should it matter to you if somebody starts at level 30 instead of 1?
PSO2 is in it's baby stages but so far they have been successful in Japan.
Boosts & buffs (both crafting and combat), appearance items, mounts, and some account services (eg:additional character slots).
Store items I DO NOT like:
Content, quest packs, region packs, classes, races, unlockable gold caps (requires a sub).
After trying several F2P models my favorite have been in STO/PW and NCSoft. I don't like the Turbine, SoE, or Funcom model where you either have to sub to play the whole game or they nickel and dime you at every turn. Those frustrate me.
Well the whole thought of playing a game that eventually you have to buy stuff to get anywhere in it does suck indeed.
However put yourself in the creators shoes, they are using many many hours to create this to begin with, so are you all that nieve to think that they are not going to try and make up the money somewhere in the end.
If the game in question is created and they do it in a sleezy way that you cannot advance without buying certain items then that is fraud in my book. However I think they have learned that it's not that they will not allow you to complete the game it is how determined will you be to get there reguardless of how.
Will you do the grind, or take the short cut and purchase, I can certainly say that 98 percent of the time it will be the latter.
Someone in an earlier post said something about thousands of dollars a month, well if someone is going to that much of an extreme to win then they have more money then brains, " A Fool and his/her money are soon parted.
I look at games like these in terms of going to an Auction, you have to have a pre-determined amount that you will not exceed, when it gets to that point you simply walk away.
if your spending that type of coin on a game you need serious help, I don't balme the creators one bit, We were all given " Freedom of Choice " if you don't exercise it then you are the ones the companies love.
Cheers! Galahad
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
I HIGHLY doubt that 98% of any gaming community in a f2p game are spending money. Not even Zynga pulls those kinds of numbers. The microtransaction model ends up with a small number of high spenders supporting the game, which is played by a large number of people.
How is spending money on a f2p game any different than spending money on any other type of game? And what makes them a fool? Perhaps they allot money to an entertainment budget, and rather than spending it on movies or eating at fancy restaurants, they spend it on a game. Unless you then wish to suggest that games are a base medium, how is spending money on video games any different than spending the same amount on movies?
While I don't spend much on games myself (my entertainment budget is decidedly smaller than I wish it were!), I really dislike the attitude of people who judge others based on how they spend their money. I've seen so many gaming communities that purposely put this rift between people who want to buy things, and people who do not. I REALLY hope we're more mature than some of these other communities, and that we don't fall into this absurd hate spiral.
And it's up to each individual to determine what that limit is, and not for anyone to judge.
It's not our place to judge people for spending money on something they like. Spending money on a game does not mean that someone has an addiction, or that they "need serious help." It means that they spend money on a game- that's it.
You need only check some of the other PW forums to see the idiotic hate and bile that is spewed between spenders/non spenders. Let's keep our pocketbooks private, and not judge.
As far as what would turn me off of a game- If I HAD to buy things to progress, that would annoy me- not because I'm unwilling to spend money on something I like, but because that kinda breaks the natural progression of the game. You have to stop, spend (or save to spend b:shocked ) money, and THEN you can keep going.
If it's fashion items, or things like reset tokens, things to give a boost to luck/chance or even small perks, that'll make me happy and seriously tempt me to spend (I'm a sucker for vanity items for my characters).
Pretty much that.
Back when I was playing Forsaken World, I personally spent about 600 euros over the period of a year on the game. Would it be better if I had spent it getting wasted on nightclubs or on getting trendy clothes? Would that have made it more "normal" in any way? I don't think so.
I just happened to have the money at the time and nothing better to spend them on. Yeah, I could have saved them for something more worth that amount of money, but oh well - noone will starve or anything due those 600 euros...
As for the big spenders, those that clock 1000s of dollars a month... they are teens or young adults from rich families with a lot of disposable income. They already have their fancy car, fancy clothes and all the conveniences they could want, and quite honestly I find that it makes much more sense to spend those dollars on their game characters than on yet another car that they don't need or yet another set of Guccis and Armanis that will just sit in the wardrobe...
I'm pretty sure I said that 98 percent of people would take the short cut, and not do the grind, do you think that number would be lower? if so what do you think a more realistic percentage would be?.
The only way that spending money on a game becomes different than any other spending if it is done souly out of trying to get past a threshold that can't be done in a normal way.
The thread is called " Pay To Win, Where Do We Draw The Line " you can't begin to play a game and later find that it is increasingly difficult to complete with out some type of purchases and then complain about it saying, " I'm getting ripped off " when you knew long before hand where the road was heading.
I can say 100 percent that if you created a F2P start game and had to pay your employees and everyone envolved you would be making people interested in your product pay some how as well, and if you said no you would not, your liar.
As for me judging people that is not the case at all, someone in an earlier post used the example of thousands of dollars a month, to me that is just insane period, I just cannot comprehend that type of spending, " For Enjoyment "
I play DDO and have been for 3+ years I have spent approx $120.00 on that game and own everything in it as far as content to play, so to pay thousands of dollars a month on a game .... I'm sorry I just can't fathom that. Is it wrong? Who's to say... But those same individuals can't sit and complain later about it, and belly ache.
EG.of the type of person I am, DDO there is basic P2P ( Play what you have or Buy more ) and VIP ( You have access to everything for approx 10 dollars each month ) now at that price plus the taxes I might add is well over 120.00 a year.
Why would I want to pay 120.00 a year ( VIP ) for something and later stop VIP staus and lose everything I got use to playing, when I could just pay 120.00 and buy as I play and own every piece of content for the life of my account.
However there are loads of people who are VIP, I just don't understand the logic.
For me, I would never spend that kind of coin on a game ... Ever... and if I was a person that had that kind of money to " Throw Away " on a " Game " then I would seriously have to re-think who I am and why I am doing it.
If there are people in this world that spend coin like that, then maybe those individuals should take a strole down to their neariest homeless shelter, that type of spending would be better used in these places and probably bring you far more joy than any game could ever give.
Cheers! Galahad
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
Replies in Pink.
I'll keep this short because I hate pissing matches,
Blanchardtech said it best in post #14,
That 120 I spent was a good portion of my yearly entertainment budget, my other monies I put aside are for my charity of Cancer research, as my mother died of it and feel that is most worthy for my money, and my other time when not playing games is spead between different things of " Donating my time " to church events, hospital, and using time helping young people similar to " Big brother " etc.
Enough said on this subject for me, I don't want the thread to be lost in a big old debate, that has merits on both sides.
Cheers! Galahad
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
It's up to people themselves to choose whether they want to spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on games and there's nothing wrong with it. If they want to pay to win...I pity their choices not because they are wasting money but I feel there's no point in playing a game you paid to win.
The problem is if they *can* pay to win I feel little reason to *play* to win. It simply compromises the integrity of the game for all players if the developers implement something which belittles the effort by actual players.
That's not to say those that don't enjoy/won't pay to win are leaches to the system. They are extremely likely to buy appearance or convenience items but simply believe 'winning' is an achievement.
Honestly people can, will and do spent hundreds to thousands of dollars on some games without paying to win.
That's a clearer iteration of my point.
We should feel like we have the option to buy something.
If the only defense is I have the option to NOT buy it, then they've already become pay to win.
If NW follows the same theory, there will be nothing to "win," so there won't be any need to pay to win it. Microtransactions will be clothing and armour looks, extra things that aren't game-changers, and other non-essential stuff. If Cryptic/PW follows the STO model, an "adventuring group" (= fleet) can build a castle or something (= starbase).
I completely disagree. While yes, you can sit and grind for months gaining dilithium, it is such a job that it becomes annoying, repetitive and feels more like a chore than fun. I surely hope NWO doesn't follow suit with what STO has become.
There has not been a new ship released that doesn't cost Zen (unless you count the limited time Odyssey mission). All ships now cost either Dilithium or Zen, practically all gear now costs Dilithium, all the BOFFs cost Dilithium (save for your first free one when you tier up). Now the price of Dilithium on the exchange has dropped so horribly that you get very little for your Zen. Last night, it was at 214 Dilithium per Zen. Hardley anything worth-while costs Energy Credits anymore.
Then there are these ridiculous locked boxed that you get left and right in the game and yet in order to open them, you have to either buy their keys for 125 Zen each or pay the ridiculous inflated Exchange prices for them and more often than not, you get something that isn't even worth 1 Zen, in my opinion.
To make it worse, almost everything used to be account-wide unlocks when bought through the C-Store. Now, with the Z-Store, almost everything is unlocked once per character, so you'd have to buy it everytime for each character. These ridiculous 700 Zen Spacesuits are the newest thing of this sort. 700 Zen for a piece of armor, for one character, that you only use in one place of the game that now has repeat times set on the quests that they are involved in.
Thankfully, the Uniform sets are still Account-wide unlocks. I suspect this will change as soon as they figure out how to code it.
For the average non-PvPer, things won't really begin to become apparent until you have reached level cap and completed all the PvE missions. At end-game and in PvP, you'll begin to notice how you can never perform as well as players with the Z-Store ships and in PvP this caused major imbalance where those who pay for the ships will win most of the time.
Now, people will argue that it is not pay to win because there is the Dilithium Exchange. However, if you look at the big picture at how most of the games' gear and ships now cost an enormous amount of dilithim, as well as the Tens of Thousands of Dilithium (some cost 200,000 dilithium) Starbase Projects cost, you'll see that the means to obtain Dilithium is greatly over-shadowed by the amount of things that cost Dilithium in the game. I am assuming this is done this way to make people not enjoy grinding for Dilithium so that they will be more apt to buy Zen and then sell it on the Exchange for Dilithium.
If you do not PvP, you are missing a huge chunk of Dilithium available to you. As well, there is an 8,000 per day cap on how much Unrefined Dilithium you can refine. Nothing in the game, aside from the Dilithium Exchange, awards Refined Dilithium, so you are further penalized by this refinement cap.
The only PvE missions that award dilithium are a handful of Daily Missions on an 18+ hour cycle and are so few that they have, over the life-span of the game, become such a repetition that they are no longer enjoyable.
So.. no matter what, all that Zen on the Dilithium Exchange has, at some point, been bought for real money by someone, making the whole Dilithium Exchange system a Pay to Win system.
Just in the past month, without buying any dilithium off of the Exchange, out of 4 level 50, characters all I have been able to muster is around 200,000 Dilithium. 40,000 of it has went into the Starbase so far and I've only been able to complete one project. The game has once again shafted not only the casual player but also those who belong to small or one-man fleets.
Oh yeah, it's great at getting new players hooked with their illusion and smoke and mirrors, but once you max all your characters out, I am sure you too will start to notice the repetitive grind and the imbalance between players who have the Zen ships and those who have the Dilithium Ships.
We were told, back when the F2P was first mentioned - that the C-Store would remain Fluff only and never contain anything that gave a strategic advantage. For a while it did and that is when I spent a good deal of money on the game while remaining subscribed. Then, the changes wrought by PWE began to take precedence... Oh how we were fooled.
I miss the STO before F2P/DE/P2W. I would resubscribe to that STO in a heart-beat. Don't get me wrong, the gameplay, artwork and missions are wonderful. The developers in these areas are top-notch. It is those pulling the market strings that are causing all the glorious work done by these wonderful developers to be overshadowed by all the Cash Cow gimicks.
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There's nothing to 'win' in most MMO's. It's a very loose term which is more akin to 'wet my whistle' than 'have a drink.'
Pay to Win in MMO's isn't cut and dry. Normally Pay to Win MMO's offer little reward for the time spent playing compared to buying rewards.
This is why I said it is a little hard to pinpoint an exact line. It varies from person to person.
Steelebutterfly is as casual as casual comes and that's fine but that's an extreme and not a norm.
I consider myself a casual gamer also. I don't play *to* win but I do expect for my time to be adequately rewarded and if what Zebular states is true I'd be very frustrated playing STO.
If I don't feel like I can advance at a decent rate without paying then the game has become pay to win.
However if everybody could get everything they wanted without paying then to me it's just as problematic.
It's a fine line and it varies from player to player but as long as the developers put honest effort into skirting the line few players should be overly annoyed by things they feel cross the line.
A casual gamer is somebody who enjoys playing the game to play the game. From what I read both Steelebutterly and Zebular are casual gamers but they are two sides of the same coin. More power to you if you can turn a blind eye to what others get by paying for content compared to what you get for playing the game Steelebutterfly, I've had many friends over the years like you. However I'm not capable of turning a blind eye to how others advance and it absolutely shouldn't be a pre-requisite to enjoy a game without paying to advance.
**No offense to either Steelebutterly or Zebular. You just gave perfect examples of the two extremes of players who just want to enjoy the game to enjoy the game.
No one forces me to pvp. As far as premium gear for pvp in store goes I don't really care as long as it doesn't change the game for me so make it pvp only gear. It's frustrating for a casual player like me to have a choice of grinding for premium gear or pony up for it in the cash shop. When I played COX I played a lot of pvp until the constant nerfs and top end enhancements from grinding made it unenjoyable. To me pvp should be about skill and build not about cash or grinding for uber gear. I agree with an earlier poster purchasing uber gear for pvp is a short cut for impatient, and more often than not, immature people who lack skill.
The cash shop would do well to sell increased modes of transport, fluff, clothing and character slots. Some other ideas that I would be willing to pay for would be my own keep and its defenses ect at end game. A teleportation scroll to a vendor or store so I can sell off loot and then recall back to the spot I was just at. Even a bag of holding would be a good buy if encumbrance table from pnp is incorporated into game. Quality of life stuff not pay to win.
OMG! There is no spoon!
p.s. want to say it is very nice, but metaphysical statement.
It doesn't affect the fun that I have. In F2P games that limit content I simply enjoy the content that IS available to me. I don't stress over the fact that there is some quest or area that I can't get into unless I pay money. I can just as easily have fun playing in a free area.
Since the dawn of MMOs I've spent so much money on subscriptions that I now feel like a kid in a toy store filled with free candy with all the available F2P games out there. I never feel like I have to pay money if I don't want to. There's always something else I can do for free that's just as fun.
So what would make me feel like a line has been crossed? I really can't think of anything. These games are letting me have fun for free! I wish I got my car for free and only had to pay extra to get leather seats. I wish my house was free and only had to pay to upgrade to a hot tub. Wouldn't life be awesome if everything was modeled like F2P games?
"Welcome to McDonald's! Would you like your free cheeseburger meal, or would you like to buy some tokens and get the super size Big Mac meal?"
"Welcome to Walmart! Here's your cart of free groceries. If you want top-shelf brands just buy tokens at the counter to upgrade."
F2P games would have to charge me to be able to equip any items, or charge me to gain any levels, or... well they'd have to become subscription based games and not offer me any free game play for me to be upset.
Ya thats nice and fluffy post, but when someone buys a better set of gear then you can get in the game so you are excluded from doing a dungeon run by players because your not as powerful is not fun. Or the game is designed you need X weapon from the item shop to be able to kill mobs in a dungeon, not fun. Or you goto do PvP and everyone in store gear always kicks your butt, not fun.
Thats the thing, cash shops can kill the fun of a game. There is a real balance system of making the game money and making sure it does not break the balance and fun of the game. So for me, any combat boost or items like gear or weapons (unless they are just skins) should not be in the cash shop. No heal pots, no mana pots. Its shuold only be fluff, cosmetic items and time saving items like exp boosts. Anything more and I wont even try this game.
Just a quick question.Where does the user generated content fit into this? or does it?
I would think that if there is a point that you are going to be " P2W " then all one would have to do is play community content ( Free ??? ) or is it set up that anything created by this method is proporty of Cryptic/PW and thus P2P/store fluff.
Will the creator be able to stipulate it is to be F2P and if it is going to be P2P will the creator(s) get anything for their time in return?
Cheers! Galahad
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
If they choose, at their discretion, to charge for user generated content I would consider it an act of pure greed.
However I can't say I'd be against them coming to an agreement with the content creator to make it Pay to Play content but this content should the best of the best only, the creator should have a say in the retail value and the creator should be given a portion of the value sold at least in store credit.
That should be an *honor* though and not to be expected when creating content. If Cryptic charges for user generated content without the creator's permission or allowed any content to be slapped with a fee I wouldn't be happy.
But I believe that it is not our right to judge if a company is evil just by seeing how it charges customers. They have their expenses and they have to cover them somehow. So they have to charge customers/player for stuff - many times to save a sinking ship. Perhaps they will be evil if they are in a large margin of profit but still introduce honeytraps(like keys in store for locked boxes
So it is a very subjective topic. However, I think they should always 'plant' some trustworthy observers(spies) among common users so when the community starts to feel cheated they come to know before it flames up. That way they can respond well to a situation.
This 'planting' of spy thing is not needed if the community is well knitted and kept toghether by the means of good forums.