Please allow Defender's Minuet to heal players outside of the party, as well.
So I didn't omit Defender's Minuet from the changes because I thought it would be OP or anything like that.
I left it as party-member only because I actually thought it was better that way. As a healer, in most situations you feel the greatest responsibility for your own party member's health. Since DM heals just one person with the lowest health, if it worked on anyone, you could see someone in your party w/ low health, cast DM to help them, and then see that heal go to someone in another party and your own party member might die.
With AoE heals it's different. Everyone gets healed, so there's never any regret to worry about, or any danger of your own party members being taken care of.
Back when I mained a healer, I always felt I was *responsible* for everyone in my party. I would *try to help* people in other parties when I could. I wouldn't have wanted a heal that might land on someone outside of my party when I wanted it to heal my party member.
That said, if all the healers here agree with you and not with me, I'm happy to change it. But I will take at least a bit of convincing. As I said, I don't think it's about being OP. It's just about what the best way is for the power to work. (The fact that the tooltip specifically mentions party members seems to be evidence that whoever originally designed DM was thinking along similar lines to mine.)
P.S. Also, Cleric Intercession works the same way (nearby party member with the least hit points). At this point, I'm afraid I'd take a LOT of convincing. :P
I agree applying Defender’s Minuet to party only, that’s manageable. I’m certain about my feelings that it should not apply to nearby allies who are not in your queue group/raid.
Typically, healers are in a party with the other healer and tanks in a Trial. It’s very rare to need to focus heal a DPS the same way a tank needs to be; however, Minstrel still has Arpeggio for a strong single-target heal on allies outside of party, such as a low health DPS who needs to be saved.
For being the final Minstrel class feature, I think the general consensus of Starstruck at the moment is that it's a laughably bad class feature and that it needs improvements. Whether it is just in need of bugfixes (like Rejuvenating Carol/Sheltering Etude) or that the class feature is that bad even with the bugs fixed, we don't know.
Specific information like "(x)% chance to proc on Rejuvenating Carol ticks, supposed to heal for (y) magnitude and has a (z) second internal cooldown before being able to proc again" would be helpful for figuring out what needs tweaking.
Please allow Defender's Minuet to heal players outside of the party, as well.
So I didn't omit Defender's Minuet from the changes because I thought it would be OP or anything like that.
I left it as party-member only because I actually thought it was better that way. As a healer, in most situations you feel the greatest responsibility for your own party member's health. Since DM heals just one person with the lowest health, if it worked on anyone, you could see someone in your party w/ low health, cast DM to help them, and then see that heal go to someone in another party and your own party member might die.
With AoE heals it's different. Everyone gets healed, so there's never any regret to worry about, or any danger of your own party members being taken care of.
Back when I mained a healer, I always felt I was *responsible* for everyone in my party. I would *try to help* people in other parties when I could. I wouldn't have wanted a heal that might land on someone outside of my party when I wanted it to heal my party member.
That said, if all the healers here agree with you and not with me, I'm happy to change it. But I will take at least a bit of convincing. As I said, I don't think it's about being OP. It's just about what the best way is for the power to work. (The fact that the tooltip specifically mentions party members seems to be evidence that whoever originally designed DM was thinking along similar lines to mine.)
P.S. Also, Cleric Intercession works the same way (nearby party member with the least hit points). At this point, I'm afraid I'd take a LOT of convincing. :P
It currently heals the 10 people in your "party" which includes the other group in 10 man content. This is how I'd want it to work.
I assume this is what you're explaining, it's unchanged.
Please allow Defender's Minuet to heal players outside of the party, as well.
So I didn't omit Defender's Minuet from the changes because I thought it would be OP or anything like that.
I left it as party-member only because I actually thought it was better that way. As a healer, in most situations you feel the greatest responsibility for your own party member's health. Since DM heals just one person with the lowest health, if it worked on anyone, you could see someone in your party w/ low health, cast DM to help them, and then see that heal go to someone in another party and your own party member might die.
With AoE heals it's different. Everyone gets healed, so there's never any regret to worry about, or any danger of your own party members being taken care of.
Back when I mained a healer, I always felt I was *responsible* for everyone in my party. I would *try to help* people in other parties when I could. I wouldn't have wanted a heal that might land on someone outside of my party when I wanted it to heal my party member.
That said, if all the healers here agree with you and not with me, I'm happy to change it. But I will take at least a bit of convincing. As I said, I don't think it's about being OP. It's just about what the best way is for the power to work. (The fact that the tooltip specifically mentions party members seems to be evidence that whoever originally designed DM was thinking along similar lines to mine.)
P.S. Also, Cleric Intercession works the same way (nearby party member with the least hit points). At this point, I'm afraid I'd take a LOT of convincing. :P
I haven't seen anyone play this game contributing their class role to a party group. Not even once since I started playing a few months ago. I avoid joining dungeons and queues because of it.
Everyone rushes through everything. Players with slower movement speed or that want to check things out, not miss anything, get left behind and die because everyone else is rushing through it to get to the end-reward chest. Almost everyone ignores chests, currency that's dropped, skill node chests, and often people run right by mobs in queue quests leaving noobs and slower, less powerful players, behind to deal with mobs by themselves they can't possibly defeat solo - they're in a group and it's scaled for the group but nobody plays that way. This is frustrating. It discourages new players and players with slower movement speeds from participating in queues.
"LFG and form groups manually" someone might suggest. It doesn't make a difference how the group is formed. People still don't play their class role because they don't really have to. They rush through it because they can. We don't have to kill and get everything because there isn't a bonus for doing, killing, and getting everything. Some players want to get everything they can out of queues. I do. A few noobs that started playing around the time I did have the same frustration.
Nobody I've seen plays this game as a party-member or group. The only people that vaguely play their class role in groups are Clerics. As a developer it's discouraging to see you're not aware of this.
While we're discussing this, I just want to note that I would find it extremely helpful if tooltips in general used consistent language about friendly targets. For example, if "party members" always meant members of your 5-person party, and "allies" always meant members of both parties in a 10-player trial instance, I would find that pretty straightforward to understand the scope of a power. Instead though, with mixed uses of these terms, and just ambiguity in general, many players rely on complete guesses and on "popular belief" to interpret the scope implied by the tooltip.
For example, if you look at tooltips of the following, and then actually test them: 1. Runic Aura - says it gives stats to "party members" but is raid wide 2. Masterwork weapons - works on "allies" but is party only 3. Frozen Storyteller's Journal - says it works on "allies" and is raid wide 4. Defender's Minuet - heals a "party member" and works only on party
To me personally, the language in 3 and 4 make sense, whereas 1 and 2 seem to suggest it works differently than it does.
Please allow Defender's Minuet to heal players outside of the party, as well.
So I didn't omit Defender's Minuet from the changes because I thought it would be OP or anything like that.
I left it as party-member only because I actually thought it was better that way. As a healer, in most situations you feel the greatest responsibility for your own party member's health. Since DM heals just one person with the lowest health, if it worked on anyone, you could see someone in your party w/ low health, cast DM to help them, and then see that heal go to someone in another party and your own party member might die.
With AoE heals it's different. Everyone gets healed, so there's never any regret to worry about, or any danger of your own party members being taken care of.
Back when I mained a healer, I always felt I was *responsible* for everyone in my party. I would *try to help* people in other parties when I could. I wouldn't have wanted a heal that might land on someone outside of my party when I wanted it to heal my party member.
That said, if all the healers here agree with you and not with me, I'm happy to change it. But I will take at least a bit of convincing. As I said, I don't think it's about being OP. It's just about what the best way is for the power to work. (The fact that the tooltip specifically mentions party members seems to be evidence that whoever originally designed DM was thinking along similar lines to mine.)
P.S. Also, Cleric Intercession works the same way (nearby party member with the least hit points). At this point, I'm afraid I'd take a LOT of convincing. :P
Ok, there seems to be a lot of confusion here over "party" "raid group", including myself.
Intercession and Defender's Minuet on live both heal anyone in your raid group. (I logged in to my Cleric to make sure this was how Intercession works)
My hope is this remains unchanged.
For example, in Tiamat no one actually splits group 1 left, group 2 right. People just split up, I always try to be situationally aware and go to the "other side" of whatever the other healer does. This often places me near people who are not in my "party" of five people. I want Defender's Minuet to heal those people.
Also in Demogorgon private people often use a single healer, it would be devastating if Defender's Minuet wasn't able to heal the tank if they are in the "other group".
Also, if Defender's Minuet doesn't heal the other group, you can't really heal the other healer.
If Defender's Minuet now only heals in your "party" of 5 in 10 man raids that would actually be a change from live and not the same as Intercession.
I feel like we need clarification.
And again my opinion is please don't change it to 5 man party only, please leave it unchanged, which is having it heal your "raid group".
Edited to add image:
It's a little hard to tell, but this is my Intercession hitting Captain Teemo, you can see by his green name he is not in my "party".
@x10110100 I agree with you. I think the last few comments got a bit confused without testing the live. Thank you for posting it clearly.
It is the same with the mark heal of paladin, if you doing insurgencies with a group, you can only mark your group. If you are in a random or private trial, you can mark and heal any of the 10 people. This is how DM is currently working and should not be changed to anything else.
I think @rgutscheradev has it right, you are just focusing on free world play and forgetting to mention how it works in trials.
P.S. I will say it again in every post I write from now on. Amazing work from you with great feedback.
P.S.S. Once these fixes hit console , my spined devil will forever have your name as hers.
@rgutscheradev One thing I noticed on preview is that when you play a song from a quickslot now you have a delay and you see those error messages. =( This is not happening on live. Quickslots have no delays.
I think when you fixed delays thing you broke quickslots
Please allow Defender's Minuet to heal players outside of the party, as well.
So I didn't omit Defender's Minuet from the changes because I thought it would be OP or anything like that.
I left it as party-member only because I actually thought it was better that way. As a healer, in most situations you feel the greatest responsibility for your own party member's health. Since DM heals just one person with the lowest health, if it worked on anyone, you could see someone in your party w/ low health, cast DM to help them, and then see that heal go to someone in another party and your own party member might die.
With AoE heals it's different. Everyone gets healed, so there's never any regret to worry about, or any danger of your own party members being taken care of.
Back when I mained a healer, I always felt I was *responsible* for everyone in my party. I would *try to help* people in other parties when I could. I wouldn't have wanted a heal that might land on someone outside of my party when I wanted it to heal my party member.
That said, if all the healers here agree with you and not with me, I'm happy to change it. But I will take at least a bit of convincing. As I said, I don't think it's about being OP. It's just about what the best way is for the power to work. (The fact that the tooltip specifically mentions party members seems to be evidence that whoever originally designed DM was thinking along similar lines to mine.)
P.S. Also, Cleric Intercession works the same way (nearby party member with the least hit points). At this point, I'm afraid I'd take a LOT of convincing. :P
I really don't know why you are arguing about this. Both heals work in trial party members (10 man). Never had a problem with it, it's working just fine as it is
Sometimes when you use the encounter flourish, it plays the animation and the effect isn't applied to you. It also doesn't go on cooldown, so you can use it again, but you kinda have to press it twice to work
BUG: When swapping loadouts between Songblade and Minstrel or vice-versa, all effects applied on the character through various consumables, are lost.
Note: The effects from consumables are not lost when swapping to a same-paragon loudout
So effects from the following (At least) go away: - Forger's Box (Avernus item slotted in a belt slot) - Invocation Blessing - Elixirs - Flask of Potency +1, rank 3 (perhaps other flasks as well) - Event food (any item)
This is currently reproducible in the live server, on my character (Viperion Arncien@vasile1991) every time I swap loadouts like mentioned above.
Reminder BUG: Swapping loadouts will eventually cause the bard to not have the stats rebuilt correctly (missing power, critical strike, etc etc)
From my tests it seems it's highly related to companions (especially when swapping from a loadout with an augment to another with a fighting companion or vice-versa).
Post edited by vasile1991 on
Viperion - DragonTribe guild. Playing Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Fighter.
Playing Sheltering etude via encore is stacking 2 buffs of Sheltering etude on your character instead of replacing the previous one (happening sometimes)
For being the final Minstrel class feature, I think the general consensus of Starstruck at the moment is that it's a laughably bad class feature and that it needs improvements. Whether it is just in need of bugfixes (like Rejuvenating Carol/Sheltering Etude) or that the class feature is that bad even with the bugs fixed, we don't know.
Specific information like "(x)% chance to proc on Rejuvenating Carol ticks, supposed to heal for (y) magnitude and has a (z) second internal cooldown before being able to proc again" would be helpful for figuring out what needs tweaking.
I totally agree, for a last feat it's really disappointing. I been trying to test it on builds, but being a PS player testing is rather cumbersome. Anyhow, I cannot see ANY minstrel build ever using Starstuck in it's present condition.
Hopefully @rgutscheradev can have a look at the proc rate / heal magnitude.
PS. I am, as mentioned, on PS and after playing minstrel since launch have no problem getting the delay 'error', just wanted to mention this as it seems like alot of the focus is on PC players and macro. Us console players, after muscle memory done it's thing, get it aswell - frustrsting.
Using the Pianissimo feat still shows only 80 Magnitude for Rejuvenating Carol in the UI on Live Server:
The UI is different for every Song mentioned in the description (after using Pianissimo). Rejuvenating Carol has its magnitude set to 80 and performance cost adjusted to the values mentioned in Pianissimos description. Defender's Minuet and Sheltering Etude has its Performance Cost adjusted but not its Magnitude.
Again, I have not tested their real magnitude. It is possible to be only an UI issue.
Would also be nice to have a look at animation cancelling.
Just have a look at how this "Content Creator" plays and displays this class: (ignore the Zariel subject of the video and focus on how bard is actually played here) This is really stupid and should be addressed...
Hey, first off great job @rgutscheradev ! Minstrel finally feels viable and I especially like that you can swap between buffing (Storyteller) and pure healing (kinda Gambler). The Gambler path currently only involves letting those stacks run out so you can get extra healing in, I do not know about any bard actually "gambling" on getting something useful from there - and even if there was something useful the effect feels just too small compared to Storyteller. Overall, I feel like that feat could be looked into, it's the only feat where one is always the obvious choice (besides the second feat, those are both meh, but thats alright).
With that said I feel like building a Bard healer is kind of weird. Instead of trying to increase stats I mostly focused on getting rid of any sources of Crit Sev I can just because you *always* overcap crit sev if you buff slightly with any of the "cheaper" potions. But even without, due to the Bard's forte being crit sev you are sitting on a ton of crit sev. Then, for some reason the bard gets 10% extra crit sev. Most bard's I have spoken to lack crit strike and can't cap it or come anywhere close to capping it and they waste a ton of crit sev because they are overcapped. "Critical tuning" could perhaps be changed to give 10% crit strike, or if thats too much even 5% crit strike would still help more. Hell - I would even enjoy 5% defense more than being that overcapped on crit sev....although my fellow dps bards probably wouldn't agree with that!
The Sheltering Etude spam feels very good. It is a different play style than other healers and I do enjoy it! It gives the Bard very strong AoE healing, but he has a hard time getting a single target heal onto a target - I guess it is fair that the Bard isn't strong in every aspect.
Would also be nice to have a look at animation cancelling.
@rgutscheradev Nitocris should have sent you all the details on how it works, about 2 weeks ago. I suggested you look into either the cast time on Fleche or place a cooldown on entering Perform mode, 1s like the Cleric should do.
With that said I feel like building a Bard is kind of weird. Instead of trying to increase stats I mostly focused on getting rid of any sources of Crit Sev I can just because you *always* overcap crit sev if you buff slightly with any of the "cheaper" potions. But even without, due to the Bard's forte being crit sev you are sitting on a ton of crit sev. Then, for some reason the bard gets 10% extra crit sev. Most bard's I have spoken to lack crit strike and can't cap it or come anywhere close to capping it and they waste a ton of crit sev because they are overcapped. "Critical tuning" could perhaps be changed to give 10% crit strike, or if thats too much even 5% crit strike would still help more. Hell - I would even enjoy 5% defense more than being that overcapped on crit sev....although my fellow dps bards probably wouldn't agree with that!
I don't think many DPS Bards would care about Critical Tuning being changed to +Critical Chance or even +Defense/+Awareness.
Critical Tuning may as well not exist for the DPS side, as your nonexistent Performance regen means Critical Tuning is not a reliable source of stats.
I think it's about time to remove this animation cancel on bard and clerics. It's making them use way more dailies than they should and do way more damage than they were supposed to do.
I don't think many DPS Bards would care about Critical Tuning being changed to +Critical Chance or even +Defense/+Awareness.
Critical Tuning may as well not exist for the DPS side, as your nonexistent Performance regen means Critical Tuning is not a reliable source of stats.
I did indeed completly forget about that and I completly agree. Even a ton of awareness would help us bards tanking hypos (I still prefer crit strike though ) and the Bard dps that stay in red when playing a song
Also I read a bunch on gambling now on the Bard discord. I do not know if this thread is just for bug fixes and a change to Gambler is certainly not necessary, but having a useful feat there and making use of the Songs you created for Gambler would be cool - currently I feel like its empty work. For example if I build up the stacks and get Stamina regen,...its so little and drops so fast, it barely helps tanks. If I play so *high* risk and reward the rewards should be a lot higher to compare to Storyteller.
While I dislike the idea in general of healer's gambling the groups health away it would be cool if there would be some flashy benefit to it. The shields are awesome, the rest is meh.
Edit: What Aragon said might especially work if the UI changes come. Sometimes with lag I mistakenly exit performance mode again as a healer so a internal cooldown would hurt the healer.
There's a bug on Bard where it can cleanse other people's revive sickness debuff upon death. It doesnt happen consistently, I don't exactly have an idea about what causes it, but it seemed to only happen upon a bard's death. Couldnt reproduce it with a non-bard. @rgutscheradev
Sheltering Etude on quickplay slot behaves as if it was played manually. When you play it from quickplay slot, it puts you in the cd & procs Storyteller/Critical Tuning/Truly Inspired.
Not a bug report, but here are some changes that i would like to see on Minstrel Bard after all the bugs are fixed: Critical Tuning: Change crit sev to crit strike. Change Vamp feat so that it procs after playing 5 songs in combat. Change Starstruck to a guaranteed proc which makes the first 6 seconds of Rejuvenating Carol deal additional healing. So it can be used as an initial-ish healing power. Change Play it Back to to a class feature that straight up gets rid of Aurora Fantasia, since it's insignificant and no one wants it. and make it give Aurora Finale a 100 magnitude/second HoT for 3-4s. Chance Gambler into a feat that grants a Temporary Hit Points effect to Aurora Finale and make the existing songs give guaranteed Recharge Speed/AP.
Basically get rid of all the rng factor. RNG healing is unfun and uninteresting, it's almost as bad as no healing at all. Healing should be guaranteed, not based on luck.
It's not a strong heal at all, for me with Diminuendo in unscaled combat the first tick is around 200k then each tick drops until it's around 100k, and it doesn't refresh back to max ticks for quite a while.
It's a 500 magnitude heal only for the first tick down to 250 after vs 2000 for , and it's far less mana efficient.
So while this may seem like a good idea on paper, in reality now you have to pick out and target (Call of Duty style) a DPS in a pile of people (who may also be moving or dodging), and their companions which Arpeggio can also hit. Versus just clicking Defender’s Minuet and have 100% guaranteed heal on the lowest health target
And look at it from a time perspective, healing an 800,000-1,000,000+ person from 200,000 to full health is going to take forever, keeping you from being able to do anything else like healing the tank or dodging or using baseline to regain mana.
Trust me, you want to be able to just quickly Defender’s Minuet and move on to the next thing you need to do, not sit around for 6-10+ seconds pumping out Arpeggio.
And my experience with it, is that functionally it's very clunky, if you heal one person with it then try to heal someone else quickly it'll play the animation but not do anything. You have to use it then wait then use it again.
Bards would be the only class that has a heal like this that doesn't just target the lowest person in the raid group. And this is a request that only potentially benefits groups in which the group is specifically formed for a purpose. Nintynine percent of groups are just formed with the built-in group management system aka 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps per group. Bards would be at a huge disadvantage in the VAST VAST majority of groups in the game.
I feel quite certain making it party only in raids would be very bad for the Bards overall.
I disagree with Critical Tuning being changed, at least on healer. On healer it's at 100% healing songs uptime. In my current setup I can have 85% power, 90% OH, 63-68% critical strike and 90% critical severity with Critical Tuning. With no need to wear a rib cage.
On DPS I agree that something should be done though - it's essentially an empty stat. If it was a 10% critical strike increase while under effect of an elemental song that would be perfect.
While playing on DPS path to do campaigns I've had my share of fun with encounters for both ST and AoE. I do have an issue though. Namely Contre.
The charge time is way too long for the big AoE attack. No one wants powers that have to be charged in AoE for over 2s. Everything will be dead by then. And knockback... no one likes powers that push mobs away.
I would suggest the following changes: 1. Swap max charge AoE attack with single target, lower magnitude on AoE and increase the single target magnitude. That'd give bard 4th option for an encounter for single target fights with options to use AoE if the boss spawns adds. 2. Add Perfect Counter effect - the current last charge effect but triggered by using contre and being hit within 0.5s window of use. 3. For the love of God, make the mobs not fly away. Just prone would be enough.
It's not a strong heal at all, for me with Diminuendo in unscaled combat the first tick is around 200k then each tick drops until it's around 100k, and it doesn't refresh back to max ticks for quite a while.
It's a 500 magnitude heal only for the first tick down to 250 after vs 2000 for , and it's far less mana efficient.
So while this may seem like a good idea on paper, in reality now you have to pick out and target (Call of Duty style) a DPS in a pile of people (who may also be moving or dodging), and their companions which Arpeggio can also hit. Versus just clicking Defender’s Minuet and have 100% guaranteed heal on the lowest health target
And look at it from a time perspective, healing an 800,000-1,000,000+ person from 200,000 to full health is going to take forever, keeping you from being able to do anything else like healing the tank or dodging or using baseline to regain mana.
Trust me, you want to be able to just quickly Defender’s Minuet and move on to the next thing you need to do, not sit around for 6-10+ seconds pumping out Arpeggio.
And my experience with it, is that functionally it's very clunky, if you heal one person with it then try to heal someone else quickly it'll play the animation but not do anything. You have to use it then wait then use it again.
Bards would be the only class that has a heal like this that doesn't just target the lowest person in the raid group. And this is a request that only potentially benefits groups in which the group is specifically formed for a purpose. Nintynine percent of groups are just formed with the built-in group management system aka 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps per group. Bards would be at a huge disadvantage in the VAST VAST majority of groups in the game.
I feel quite certain making it party only in raids would be very bad for the Bards overall.
My thoughts:
(1) Strength of Arpeggio heal Here is an Arpeggio log from a Crown of Keldegonn run I had today where I went full debuff (artifacts, artifact equipment, companion, and companion bonus). In other words, I wasn't fully focused on my healing output. You can see that my first 500 magnitude tick of Arpeggio crits for ~300,000. To me, this is a strong heal for an at-will, especially when running a buff/debuff loadout with healing output as a secondary consideration:
(2) Targeting Having to aim at a target is the standard mechanic for at-will healing, so nothing unique about the Minstrel here. Picking out a single person to heal that's grouped with others is no easier for other healers, even those with a tab mechanic. While I do agree the reality of attempting to heal a single person in a group is cumbersome, it's not a challenge isolated to the Minstrel.
(3) Healing a target to full health with Arpeggio I agree this is not ideal, which is why you will see from my logs I don't to that. I just tap Arpeggio once. If I do happen to channel Arpeggio, I don't channel it for long. My objective is to get the target to safe health relative to the situation and then let my other heals take over.
(4) Channeling Arpeggio I agree this is highly inefficient, which is why it is not a good practice, not necessary, and certainly not something I recommend anyone perform for 6-10+ seconds.
(5) Defender's Minuet on a DPS player Even with Pianissimo, Defender's Minuet is extremely Performance-intensive for the total healing magnitude you get out of it. It's also excessive to use on a DPS for me, as even with Pianissimo it can hit for ~900K+. That's a lot of wasted heals ("over-heal") because if DPS need a 900K+ heal, it's probably too late. Here is a screenshot of the same Trial run where my goal was to heal the tank, 'Nasty Op', but a few times DPS unintentionally and unknowingly "stole" the heal as they had lower health than the tank. You have to ask yourself if you would rather a DPS die or a tank die:
(6) Party or Raid My original request in this thread was to have the whole raid be eligible to receive a Defender's Minuet heal. Honestly, if it works out to only being able to heal teammates in my 5-person party, I'm fine with that as well, because I'm likely only to ever use Defender's Minuet on a tank with Arpeggio being available to heal low health DPS teammates. Either way Defender's Minuet ends up working will be fine for me.
Comments
I left it as party-member only because I actually thought it was better that way. As a healer, in most situations you feel the greatest responsibility for your own party member's health. Since DM heals just one person with the lowest health, if it worked on anyone, you could see someone in your party w/ low health, cast DM to help them, and then see that heal go to someone in another party and your own party member might die.
With AoE heals it's different. Everyone gets healed, so there's never any regret to worry about, or any danger of your own party members being taken care of.
Back when I mained a healer, I always felt I was *responsible* for everyone in my party. I would *try to help* people in other parties when I could. I wouldn't have wanted a heal that might land on someone outside of my party when I wanted it to heal my party member.
That said, if all the healers here agree with you and not with me, I'm happy to change it. But I will take at least a bit of convincing. As I said, I don't think it's about being OP. It's just about what the best way is for the power to work. (The fact that the tooltip specifically mentions party members seems to be evidence that whoever originally designed DM was thinking along similar lines to mine.)
P.S. Also, Cleric Intercession works the same way (nearby party member with the least hit points). At this point, I'm afraid I'd take a LOT of convincing. :P
Typically, healers are in a party with the other healer and tanks in a Trial. It’s very rare to need to focus heal a DPS the same way a tank needs to be; however, Minstrel still has Arpeggio for a strong single-target heal on allies outside of party, such as a low health DPS who needs to be saved.
For being the final Minstrel class feature, I think the general consensus of Starstruck at the moment is that it's a laughably bad class feature and that it needs improvements. Whether it is just in need of bugfixes (like Rejuvenating Carol/Sheltering Etude) or that the class feature is that bad even with the bugs fixed, we don't know.
Specific information like "(x)% chance to proc on Rejuvenating Carol ticks, supposed to heal for (y) magnitude and has a (z) second internal cooldown before being able to proc again" would be helpful for figuring out what needs tweaking.
I assume this is what you're explaining, it's unchanged.
Everyone rushes through everything. Players with slower movement speed or that want to check things out, not miss anything, get left behind and die because everyone else is rushing through it to get to the end-reward chest. Almost everyone ignores chests, currency that's dropped, skill node chests, and often people run right by mobs in queue quests leaving noobs and slower, less powerful players, behind to deal with mobs by themselves they can't possibly defeat solo - they're in a group and it's scaled for the group but nobody plays that way. This is frustrating. It discourages new players and players with slower movement speeds from participating in queues.
"LFG and form groups manually" someone might suggest. It doesn't make a difference how the group is formed. People still don't play their class role because they don't really have to. They rush through it because they can. We don't have to kill and get everything because there isn't a bonus for doing, killing, and getting everything.
Some players want to get everything they can out of queues.
I do. A few noobs that started playing around the time I did have the same frustration.
Nobody I've seen plays this game as a party-member or group. The only people that vaguely play their class role in groups are Clerics. As a developer it's discouraging to see you're not aware of this.
1. Runic Aura - says it gives stats to "party members" but is raid wide
2. Masterwork weapons - works on "allies" but is party only
3. Frozen Storyteller's Journal - says it works on "allies" and is raid wide
4. Defender's Minuet - heals a "party member" and works only on party
To me personally, the language in 3 and 4 make sense, whereas 1 and 2 seem to suggest it works differently than it does.
Intercession and Defender's Minuet on live both heal anyone in your raid group. (I logged in to my Cleric to make sure this was how Intercession works)
My hope is this remains unchanged.
For example, in Tiamat no one actually splits group 1 left, group 2 right. People just split up, I always try to be situationally aware and go to the "other side" of whatever the other healer does. This often places me near people who are not in my "party" of five people. I want Defender's Minuet to heal those people.
Also in Demogorgon private people often use a single healer, it would be devastating if Defender's Minuet wasn't able to heal the tank if they are in the "other group".
Also, if Defender's Minuet doesn't heal the other group, you can't really heal the other healer.
If Defender's Minuet now only heals in your "party" of 5 in 10 man raids that would actually be a change from live and not the same as Intercession.
I feel like we need clarification.
And again my opinion is please don't change it to 5 man party only, please leave it unchanged, which is having it heal your "raid group".
Edited to add image:
It's a little hard to tell, but this is my Intercession hitting Captain Teemo, you can see by his green name he is not in my "party".
It is the same with the mark heal of paladin, if you doing insurgencies with a group, you can only mark your group. If you are in a random or private trial, you can mark and heal any of the 10 people. This is how DM is currently working and should not be changed to anything else.
I think @rgutscheradev has it right, you are just focusing on free world play and forgetting to mention how it works in trials.
P.S. I will say it again in every post I write from now on. Amazing work from you with great feedback.
P.S.S. Once these fixes hit console , my spined devil will forever have your name as hers.
I think when you fixed delays thing you broke quickslots
BUG: When swapping loadouts between Songblade and Minstrel or vice-versa, all effects applied on the character through various consumables, are lost.
Note: The effects from consumables are not lost when swapping to a same-paragon loudout
So effects from the following (At least) go away:
- Forger's Box (Avernus item slotted in a belt slot)
- Invocation Blessing
- Elixirs
- Flask of Potency +1, rank 3 (perhaps other flasks as well)
- Event food (any item)
This is currently reproducible in the live server, on my character (Viperion Arncien@vasile1991) every time I swap loadouts like mentioned above.
Reminder BUG: Swapping loadouts will eventually cause the bard to not have the stats rebuilt correctly (missing power, critical strike, etc etc)
From my tests it seems it's highly related to companions (especially when swapping from a loadout with an augment to another with a fighting companion or vice-versa).
Viperion - DragonTribe guild.
Playing Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Fighter.
Hopefully @rgutscheradev can have a look at the proc rate / heal magnitude.
PS. I am, as mentioned, on PS and after playing minstrel since launch have no problem getting the delay 'error', just wanted to mention this as it seems like alot of the focus is on PC players and macro. Us console players, after muscle memory done it's thing, get it aswell - frustrsting.
The UI is different for every Song mentioned in the description (after using Pianissimo). Rejuvenating Carol has its magnitude set to 80 and performance cost adjusted to the values mentioned in Pianissimos description. Defender's Minuet and Sheltering Etude has its Performance Cost adjusted but not its Magnitude.
Again, I have not tested their real magnitude. It is possible to be only an UI issue.
Just have a look at how this "Content Creator" plays and displays this class:
(ignore the Zariel subject of the video and focus on how bard is actually played here)
This is really stupid and should be addressed...
Viperion - DragonTribe guild.
Playing Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Fighter.
With that said I feel like building a Bard healer is kind of weird. Instead of trying to increase stats I mostly focused on getting rid of any sources of Crit Sev I can just because you *always* overcap crit sev if you buff slightly with any of the "cheaper" potions. But even without, due to the Bard's forte being crit sev you are sitting on a ton of crit sev. Then, for some reason the bard gets 10% extra crit sev. Most bard's I have spoken to lack crit strike and can't cap it or come anywhere close to capping it and they waste a ton of crit sev because they are overcapped. "Critical tuning" could perhaps be changed to give 10% crit strike, or if thats too much even 5% crit strike would still help more. Hell - I would even enjoy 5% defense more than being that overcapped on crit sev....although my fellow dps bards probably wouldn't agree with that!
The Sheltering Etude spam feels very good. It is a different play style than other healers and I do enjoy it! It gives the Bard very strong AoE healing, but he has a hard time getting a single target heal onto a target - I guess it is fair that the Bard isn't strong in every aspect.
Critical Tuning may as well not exist for the DPS side, as your nonexistent Performance regen means Critical Tuning is not a reliable source of stats.
Also I read a bunch on gambling now on the Bard discord. I do not know if this thread is just for bug fixes and a change to Gambler is certainly not necessary, but having a useful feat there and making use of the Songs you created for Gambler would be cool - currently I feel like its empty work. For example if I build up the stacks and get Stamina regen,...its so little and drops so fast, it barely helps tanks. If I play so *high* risk and reward the rewards should be a lot higher to compare to Storyteller.
While I dislike the idea in general of healer's gambling the groups health away it would be cool if there would be some flashy benefit to it. The shields are awesome, the rest is meh.
Edit: What Aragon said might especially work if the UI changes come. Sometimes with lag I mistakenly exit performance mode again as a healer so a internal cooldown would hurt the healer.
As you can see at 2:35, when both bards died, my skulls vanished.
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Not a bug report, but here are some changes that i would like to see on Minstrel Bard after all the bugs are fixed:
Critical Tuning: Change crit sev to crit strike.
Change Vamp feat so that it procs after playing 5 songs in combat.
Change Starstruck to a guaranteed proc which makes the first 6 seconds of Rejuvenating Carol deal additional healing. So it can be used as an initial-ish healing power.
Change Play it Back to to a class feature that straight up gets rid of Aurora Fantasia, since it's insignificant and no one wants it. and make it give Aurora Finale a 100 magnitude/second HoT for 3-4s.
Chance Gambler into a feat that grants a Temporary Hit Points effect to Aurora Finale and make the existing songs give guaranteed Recharge Speed/AP.
Basically get rid of all the rng factor. RNG healing is unfun and uninteresting, it's almost as bad as no healing at all. Healing should be guaranteed, not based on luck.
@d4rkh0rs3
It's not a strong heal at all, for me with Diminuendo in unscaled combat the first tick is around 200k then each tick drops until it's around 100k, and it doesn't refresh back to max ticks for quite a while.
It's a 500 magnitude heal only for the first tick down to 250 after vs 2000 for , and it's far less mana efficient.
So while this may seem like a good idea on paper, in reality now you have to pick out and target (Call of Duty style) a DPS in a pile of people (who may also be moving or dodging), and their companions which Arpeggio can also hit. Versus just clicking Defender’s Minuet and have 100% guaranteed heal on the lowest health target
And look at it from a time perspective, healing an 800,000-1,000,000+ person from 200,000 to full health is going to take forever, keeping you from being able to do anything else like healing the tank or dodging or using baseline to regain mana.
Trust me, you want to be able to just quickly Defender’s Minuet and move on to the next thing you need to do, not sit around for 6-10+ seconds pumping out Arpeggio.
And my experience with it, is that functionally it's very clunky, if you heal one person with it then try to heal someone else quickly it'll play the animation but not do anything. You have to use it then wait then use it again.
Bards would be the only class that has a heal like this that doesn't just target the lowest person in the raid group. And this is a request that only potentially benefits groups in which the group is specifically formed for a purpose. Nintynine percent of groups are just formed with the built-in group management system aka 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps per group. Bards would be at a huge disadvantage in the VAST VAST majority of groups in the game.
I feel quite certain making it party only in raids would be very bad for the Bards overall.
On DPS I agree that something should be done though - it's essentially an empty stat. If it was a 10% critical strike increase while under effect of an elemental song that would be perfect.
The charge time is way too long for the big AoE attack. No one wants powers that have to be charged in AoE for over 2s. Everything will be dead by then. And knockback... no one likes powers that push mobs away.
I would suggest the following changes:
1. Swap max charge AoE attack with single target, lower magnitude on AoE and increase the single target magnitude. That'd give bard 4th option for an encounter for single target fights with options to use AoE if the boss spawns adds.
2. Add Perfect Counter effect - the current last charge effect but triggered by using contre and being hit within 0.5s window of use.
3. For the love of God, make the mobs not fly away. Just prone would be enough.
(1) Strength of Arpeggio heal
Here is an Arpeggio log from a Crown of Keldegonn run I had today where I went full debuff (artifacts, artifact equipment, companion, and companion bonus). In other words, I wasn't fully focused on my healing output. You can see that my first 500 magnitude tick of Arpeggio crits for ~300,000. To me, this is a strong heal for an at-will, especially when running a buff/debuff loadout with healing output as a secondary consideration:
(2) Targeting
Having to aim at a target is the standard mechanic for at-will healing, so nothing unique about the Minstrel here. Picking out a single person to heal that's grouped with others is no easier for other healers, even those with a tab mechanic. While I do agree the reality of attempting to heal a single person in a group is cumbersome, it's not a challenge isolated to the Minstrel.
(3) Healing a target to full health with Arpeggio
I agree this is not ideal, which is why you will see from my logs I don't to that. I just tap Arpeggio once. If I do happen to channel Arpeggio, I don't channel it for long. My objective is to get the target to safe health relative to the situation and then let my other heals take over.
(4) Channeling Arpeggio
I agree this is highly inefficient, which is why it is not a good practice, not necessary, and certainly not something I recommend anyone perform for 6-10+ seconds.
(5) Defender's Minuet on a DPS player
Even with Pianissimo, Defender's Minuet is extremely Performance-intensive for the total healing magnitude you get out of it. It's also excessive to use on a DPS for me, as even with Pianissimo it can hit for ~900K+. That's a lot of wasted heals ("over-heal") because if DPS need a 900K+ heal, it's probably too late. Here is a screenshot of the same Trial run where my goal was to heal the tank, 'Nasty Op', but a few times DPS unintentionally and unknowingly "stole" the heal as they had lower health than the tank. You have to ask yourself if you would rather a DPS die or a tank die:
(6) Party or Raid
My original request in this thread was to have the whole raid be eligible to receive a Defender's Minuet heal. Honestly, if it works out to only being able to heal teammates in my 5-person party, I'm fine with that as well, because I'm likely only to ever use Defender's Minuet on a tank with Arpeggio being available to heal low health DPS teammates. Either way Defender's Minuet ends up working will be fine for me.