test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Official: Bard fixes coming to Preview

1235789

Comments

  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
  • oracle#9179 oracle Member Posts: 64 Arc User


    a) This doesn't solve accessibility issues at all. Like you said, this isn't Guitar Hero. The feature simply isn't working.
    b) You can still macro it.

    a) It does address accessibility issues. The player is no longer *required* to input notes at all in order to successfully use the song in all cases. The input of notes is only required to get extra benefits from the song, benefits that aren't required in order to successfully do all content in the game.

    Yes, there is still an accessibility differential, because the experience and advantage level is not the same across the ability spectrum. However, that's baked in to the whole concept of action-based combat, which this game is based around. It's simply not possible to make every experience equivalent and equally advantaged in this case. However, the next best thing, the important thing, is inclusion - that each player is able to engage with and succeed in all of the game's content. That is the goal here.

    b) Yes, you can still macro it. But by removing the need for multi-note keybinds, they can be disabled. Players then could only macro the songs by breaking ToS and using third-party software.

  • luizgustavovluizgustavov Member Posts: 58 Arc User

    Vamp doesn't trigger if you play a song in the quickslot.

    This needs fixing pleaseeeeeee
  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited April 2022
    @rgutscheradev

    Excellent changes.

    Minstrel Performance is instantly regenerating after playing a song in combat (at least with Gambler Feat).

    Edit: this isn't intended to come off as condescending--I love the changes, but want to report a feature not working as intended.

    Edit 2: Performance is NOT instantly regenerating after playing a song in the training room or solo play open world. I experienced this bug during today's Reaper's Challenge (no consumables, constant DoT, no health regen) in The Merchant Prince's Folly Skirmish.
  • fritz#8093 fritz Member Posts: 439 Arc User
    ifs#2910 said:


    a) It does address accessibility issues. The player is no longer *required* to input notes at all in order to successfully use the song in all cases. The input of notes is only required to get extra benefits from the song, benefits that aren't required in order to successfully do all content in the game.

    Yes, there is still an accessibility differential, because the experience and advantage level is not the same across the ability spectrum. However, that's baked in to the whole concept of action-based combat, which this game is based around. It's simply not possible to make every experience equivalent and equally advantaged in this case. However, the next best thing, the important thing, is inclusion - that each player is able to engage with and succeed in all of the game's content. That is the goal here.

    b) Yes, you can still macro it. But by removing the need for multi-note keybinds, they can be disabled. Players then could only macro the songs by breaking ToS and using third-party software.

    Think we simply disagree here. You say the advantage is not needed, I'm thinking why exclude players over it then? Even worse, you're pushing people into third party tools, which is completely uncalled for. Not that Cryptic actually sanctions this, but that's a different story.

    Also try chaining enough commands and notice the delay. I think it's possible.
  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited April 2022
    Trully inspired general skill tooltip says: Minstrel Inspiration - 10% healing bonus in "Combat"
    It only gives a 5% bonus instead of 10%. It also gives a 5% bonus while out of combat. There is no requirement that the song be in quickplay for this bonus. Although tooltip claims otherwise, those in quickplay do also activate.

    Same applies for "Critical Tuning". It gives 10% critical severity regardless of whether the song is in quickplay or not.

    I did not test for the 10% damage bonus for songblade.


    I can't activate Storyteller feat on myself. I don't know if it was deliberately designed that way. If intentional, it will only affect healers in groups of 10. Because there is only one healer in a party of 5 people.

    Under Mechanic; Forte: Your paragon path provides an increase to performance regen and excels at crit. severity and Deflect Severity. However there is no input such as "Performance Regen" under Character Main stats. Whether forte provides Performance Regeneration or not needs to be clarified.


    As for "You Can't do that right now".

    I understand that you want to punish those who use macros. And overall I welcome your efforts. Honestly, this is the first time I've seen a Dev communicate like this, and I had tears in my eyes.

    You'd be surprised how fast I played in the awesome "Free Play". It's a bit of a musician thing. After your changes, I no longer use Aurora Fantasia. I was forced to return to the "Sheltering Etude".
    When I put the Sheltering Etude in the quickplay slot and activate it with q, I always get the error "You cant do that right now". This situation can be unbearable, for example, in phase 3 of Vos' final boss.
    If I don't put it in quickplay and play it "slow" I don't get "You cant do that right now". But playing a simple sequence like 4-1-6-2-7 for longer than half a second causes muscle memory to go wrong. You shouldn't do this to musicians.

    As another example, when I put "Defender's Minuet" in the "E" quickslot, I don't get "you cant do that right now". It works pretty fluently and fast. At first I thought it was the difference in animation between the two skills. But then I examined the "Defender's Minuet" and I found that the skill indeed had a long animation just like Sheltering Etude however the animation can be easily canceled when I played it with "quickplay E" and activated TAB again.
    So this problem is not experienced with every skill attached to quickplay slot. If manually we also need to play really slow , I think execution should take at least 1-1.5 maybe 2 seconds. Which is actually something you can get used to. And then i know there are keyboards which support "pauses" between inputs. So they can delay macro usage anyway. But an important skill like the Sheltering Etude should be played over and over with quickplay since there is no skill more deserving of quickplay Q in this state of Bard.


    One more thing... If I accidentally press ESC after switching to performance mode with Tab, I am getting "Open the Options Menu and choose a keybind for "Primary Artifact Active Power" or you cant use an artifact!" pop-up. And this PopUp appears exactly above the pinned skills on my stave!
    Post edited by fabricjumper on
  • x10110100x10110100 Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    edited April 2022

    Ok, I've checked in a fix for the annoying "You must wait longer after playing a song" and "You can't do that right now" issues.

    Turns out there were actually *two* problems:
    * Underestimation on how quickly people can actually play songs.
    * A weird thing where no matter what you did, you'd be disabled from playing for "0 seconds". That sounds like you wouldn't be disabled, but for odd technical reasons it meant you actually could be disabled.

    I believe I've fixed both issues. But I'm aware that many of you are much faster bard strummers than I am. I'll let you know when the fix lands. When it does, if this is an issue you care about, you could help me by trying stuff to see if you can get the message!
    * Nobody who is actually playing the songs (not macro'ing) should see the message. At least that's the goal.
    * It's possible for this behavior to vary per song, so try some different songs and be sure to tell me which songs you could get the message on and which you couldn't.
    * A few people were saying they'd see the message when quickplaying or doing other "instant" songplays. If that happens, please give me more details -- what song, what method of playing it, anything else you need to do to get it to happen.


    I just wanted to say thanks.

    So far, playing Minstrel is already way better than it was. Thanks for listening to the bug reports, suggestions and keeping people up to date. Looking forward to the next patch.

    This has been really great.
    Post edited by x10110100 on
  • oracle#9179 oracle Member Posts: 64 Arc User
    edited April 2022



    Think we simply disagree here. You say the advantage is not needed, I'm thinking why exclude players over it then? Even worse, you're pushing people into third party tools, which is completely uncalled for. Not that Cryptic actually sanctions this, but that's a different story.

    Also try chaining enough commands and notice the delay. I think it's possible.

    Ok, it's clear my meaning isn't making it through intact.

    My points:
    * If the class is properly balanced, in my opinion, manual play *should not* be required to play the class effectively and sufficiently for all content.
    * If manual play is kept in the game, then there should be a gameplay incentive for it, because otherwise why do it at all?
    * I am not pushing people to adopt third party tools to automate their gameplay. That is the last thing I want. Not to mention it's against ToS (which I did mention, by the way), which I obviously don't recommend. If you read with appropriate care, my grammar and word choice indicates that I was describing a situation hypothetically, and not imperatively.

    I'm happy to just agree to disagree, but I don't need to tolerate defamatory presumptions either.

    And honestly, no one wants this public side drama from us. This is my last post on the matter.
  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User

    Trully inspired general skill tooltip says: Minstrel Inspiration - 10% healing bonus in "Combat"
    It only gives a 5% bonus instead of 10%. It also gives a 5% bonus while out of combat. There is no requirement that the song be in quickplay for this bonus. Although tooltip claims otherwise, those in quickplay do also activate.

    Are you sure you're checking everything properly? You may have unknowingly slotted the Class Feature Sforzando that is providing you +5% Outgoing Healing (on stat sheet). Even though the tooltip mentions playing a song in combat, it provides the increase outside of combat.

    Retry without Sforzando selected and see what happens.

  • fabricjumperfabricjumper Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited April 2022
    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    Trully inspired general skill tooltip says: Minstrel Inspiration - 10% healing bonus in "Combat"
    It only gives a 5% bonus instead of 10%. It also gives a 5% bonus while out of combat. There is no requirement that the song be in quickplay for this bonus. Although tooltip claims otherwise, those in quickplay do also activate.

    Are you sure you're checking everything properly? You may have unknowingly slotted the Class Feature Sforzando that is providing you +5% Outgoing Healing (on stat sheet). Even though the tooltip mentions playing a song in combat, it provides the increase outside of combat.

    Retry without Sforzando selected and see what happens.

    Yes, I could see the "Minstrel Inspiration" Icon in the buff menu. But I don't know if this +5% comes from Sforzando and this could be. If so, "Minstrel Inspiration" is not additive instead a multiplier like the Lionheart Set buff. Or it doesn't work even though it's an additive. I can't test right now.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    @rgutscheradev
    Can you review wizard class after this?

    /envy o:)
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
    Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    > @fabricjumper said:
    > Yes, I could see the "Minstrel Inspiration" Icon in the buff menu. But I don't know if this +5% comes from Sforzando and this could be. If so, "Minstrel Inspiration" is not additive instead a multiplier like the Lionheart Set buff. Or it doesn't work even though it's an additive. I can't test right now.

    With in/out of combat aside, the tests I performed on Critical Tuning, Truly Inspired, and Sforzando appear to be providing their benefits. They all work on the source song, too (i.e. the first song you play that triggers them).

    Critical tuning is Critical Severity.
    Truly Inspired is a multiplier.
    Sforzando is Outgoing Healing.
  • rgutscheradevrgutscheradev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 188 Cryptic Developer
    Update: I'm told the last two fixes I mentioned (less "You must wait longer" red float text, and healing for non-party members) should be landing on Preview today.
  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    @rgutscheradev is it a conflict of interest if we send you gifts
  • vasile1991vasile1991 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 74 Arc User
    Please have a look at how bard stats are being rebuilt when changing loadouts.
    Right now, in live, it's pretty bad.

    In PE, a cleric or wizard will rebuild the correct stats in maximum 5s.
    On the bard it takes up to 20-25s and often the stats are wrong (somehow they're lower than they should be). For instance if you defeat the character, as soon as you resurrect you'll have all stats rebuild in a few moments and noticeably higher.

    Viperion - DragonTribe guild.
    Playing Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Fighter.
  • x10110100x10110100 Member Posts: 69 Arc User

    Update: I'm told the last two fixes I mentioned (less "You must wait longer" red float text, and healing for non-party members) should be landing on Preview today.

    This is great, Minstrels feel real good now.

    Hey, there is another skill that doesn't seem to be working as described. Rjc9000 mentioned, Starstruck, our final Class Feature, only activates on the initial cast. And in the bit of parsing on my own that I have done means in an entire dungeon run it only activates 15'ish times.

    From the wording and just as a useful functioning ability should proc on the ticks/heals of Rejuvenating Carol.

    I mostly ask because it is the final Class Skill, so it kind of comes with the expectation that it will be at least usable if not one of the better options. And it sounds like a kind of fun feature since it bounces off the other party members own skills.

    It would be great if before we move on from Minstrel, we could get this issue looked at.

  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    x10110100 said:

    Update: I'm told the last two fixes I mentioned (less "You must wait longer" red float text, and healing for non-party members) should be landing on Preview today.

    This is great, Minstrels feel real good now.

    Hey, there is another skill that doesn't seem to be working as described. Rjc9000 mentioned, Starstruck, our final Class Feature, only activates on the initial cast. And in the bit of parsing on my own that I have done means in an entire dungeon run it only activates 15'ish times.

    From the wording and just as a useful functioning ability should proc on the ticks/heals of Rejuvenating Carol.

    I mostly ask because it is the final Class Skill, so it kind of comes with the expectation that it will be at least usable if not one of the better options. And it sounds like a kind of fun feature since it bounces off the other party members own skills.

    It would be great if before we move on from Minstrel, we could get this issue looked at.

    Couple notes I have regarding Starstruck:

    1) It appears Starstruck cannot crit.
    I have more logs showing no crits as I understand this is a small sample size.



    2) The heal is relatively very weak.
    See log above. If the proc chance is increased and Starstruck is capable of a critical strike, the low base heal magnitude may be adequate.

    3) It appears Starstruck may only proc once per cast of Rejuvenating Carol (not per tick) or the proc chance is very low:
    Starstruck proc at two different times on two different players from the same Rejuvenating Carol (nothing fancy here):


    Starstruck proc as same time on two different players from the same Rejuvenating Carol (still, nothing fancy):


    List of Rejuvenating Carol procs. You can see the Starstruck proc at 11:49:44 happened between ticks of a single Rejuvenating Carol. While I don't have video to support this statement 100%, I strongly doubt I cast a new Rejuvenating Carol right before the Starstruck procs. Again, it appears Starstruck may proc on more than just the initial tick of Rejuvenating Carol; however, it appears Starstruck either may only proc once per each Rejuvenating Carol cast and/or has a very low proc chance.
  • luizgustavovluizgustavov Member Posts: 58 Arc User

    Update: I'm told the last two fixes I mentioned (less "You must wait longer" red float text, and healing for non-party members) should be landing on Preview today.

    Much better now, I love you. Remember to make ''Vamp'' trigger from song you play on quickslot.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    I'm not playing bard, but have to say:
    This is the most professional, productive, informative and communicative thread in many many many years.
  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited April 2022
    On Preview, the delay after playing songs is significantly less noticeable. Many thanks to rgutscheradev.

    If you act quickly, you're still able to get the, "You can't do that right now" message to pop up.

    For example, if you play Rejuvenating Carol and then immediately attempt to Bassline, you will receive the following message:


    If you are attempting to chain play songs, there is still a slight delay you have to be patient with, otherwise you will start playing your song and miss the first note; however, I'm not sure how much of this is related to lag and/or unavoidable:

  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited April 2022
    @rgutscheradev

    Storyteller's bonus is not working on Preview

    Edit:
    1) Storyteller's bonus is working, apologies for the confusion.
    2) Storyteller's bonus stacks are not showing in the buff bar of the Minstrel with Storyteller's Feat, but it is showing in the buff bar of party members. I suppose this is working as intended as you do not benefit from Storyteller self-buffs; however, on Live server, you can see Storyteller stacks on your buff bar for reference purposes and to monitor up-time more easily.
  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User


    Here are the patch notes that I wrote for it (note that doesn't mean it's live yet!):
    ==================
    Various bard songs that say they affect "nearby allies" (e.g., Blaze Flamenco, Rejuvenating Carol) will now also affect friendly players who are not on your team. Songs that say they specifically affect teammates (e.g., Defender's Minuet) are not affected.

    Full list of affected powers:

    Songs
    Aurora Fantasia
    Blaze Flamenco
    Rejuvenating/Reinvigorating Carol
    Reprised Carols
    Sheltering Etude
    Steel March
    Tailwind Mambo
    Warding Carol

    Class Feature: Vamos Alla!
    Daily: Curtain Call

    All confirmed to be working as intended on Preview. Excellent work!
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User
    edited April 2022
    @rgutscheradev if you play a song very fast you get 4% ap if you play it slightly slower 6% ap if you play it very slow 10% ap.
    i think that is not working as intended.
  • luizgustavovluizgustavov Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    edited April 2022
    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    @rgutscheradev

    Storyteller's bonus is not working on Preview

    Edit:
    1) Storyteller's bonus is working, apologies for the confusion.
    2) Storyteller's bonus stacks are not showing in the buff bar of the Minstrel with Storyteller's Feat, but it is showing in the buff bar of party members. I suppose this is working as intended as you do not benefit from Storyteller self-buffs; however, on Live server, you can see Storyteller stacks on your buff bar for reference purposes and to monitor up-time more easily.

    Storyteller doesn't work on the bard by default my love. Only on your allies. It's working just fine
  • luizgustavovluizgustavov Member Posts: 58 Arc User
    @rgutscheradev I have to say, bard is looking a lot better, you are doing an amazing job!!!! You're great :)
  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User

    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    @rgutscheradev

    Storyteller's bonus is not working on Preview

    Edit:
    1) Storyteller's bonus is working, apologies for the confusion.
    2) Storyteller's bonus stacks are not showing in the buff bar of the Minstrel with Storyteller's Feat, but it is showing in the buff bar of party members. I suppose this is working as intended as you do not benefit from Storyteller self-buffs; however, on Live server, you can see Storyteller stacks on your buff bar for reference purposes and to monitor up-time more easily.

    Storyteller doesn't work on the bard by default my love. Only on your allies. It's working just fine
    Yes, this is my fault. I was confusing Storyteller and Gambler. I know you cannot self-buff with Storyteller as it has always been that way; however, I thought you could still see the outgoing stacks on your buff bar. I was wrong.
  • vasile1991vasile1991 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 74 Arc User
    edited April 2022

    Maybe I missed it but is there a way we can heal outside of our group. Think someone mentioned that when doing heroic encounters we are unable to heal anyone

    This is looking like a very popular request.

    I'll see what we can do here. I hope to have some news early next week.
    Ok, I took a look at this, and I actually think the original plan (as revealed in the existing power tooltips) was pretty sensible. It's just that it wasn't implemented. Here's what I plan to change:
    * Powers that affect multiple friendlies and currently refer to "nearby allies" will be switched to work on non-party members. Note this includes most heals. This would be a buff to roughly 8-10 powers.
    * Powers that affect multiple friendlies but specifically refer to "party members" will be left as-is (party members only). Most of these seem to be party members for a good reason: for example, Voice Throw lets you shed aggro onto a nearby tank, which really you should be doing on your own tank, not some other group's (that would just be rude). Or Defender's Minuet, which heals a single nearby party member. If you can only affect one player, better it be a party member, because those are the people whose health you are monitoring and you are responsible for.

    There might be an exception or two to the above, if I find something that seems like it needs special treatment, but the above is my basic plan.
    Please allow Defender's Minuet to heal players outside of the party, as well.
    Here's the main reason: In group content like the Tower of the Mad Mage and Crown of Keldegonn, the 10 player composition is always like this:
    - 5 DPS players in one party
    - the rest in another party (2 healers & 1or2tanks & 1or2DPS).
    This means that the bard will not be able to help DPS players outside his group who are in dire need of healing. It's just a major disadvantage vs the Cleric's Intercession healing which works this way.

    Your rationale about healing responsibility sounds good in theory and probably works fine in other games, but honestly in ToMM & CoK, a healer is responsible of everyone. You can't afford to focus on less players than the ones moving around you. Often times, one healer takes care of the active busy tank while the other healer acts upon the DPS players HPs. But generally, throughout the whole fight, the two healers work concurrently to keep everyone alive, regardless if their ally is a party member or not.

    All in all, I truly believe you'd help the class and the bard community A LOT by eliminating such limitations of Defender's Minuet. In my opinion it really won't make the Bard overpowered at all, just more in line with the other healers' capabilities.

    Viperion - DragonTribe guild.
    Playing Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Fighter.
Sign In or Register to comment.