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Tank threat generation.
wilbur626
Member Posts: 1,019 Arc User
@nitocris83 @noworries#8859
Hi!
After having tested Fighter Vanguard threat generation an absurd amount of times since the M16 changes to tank threat generation, I decided to collect information for all 3 tank paragons. The introduction of the training room would make this a lot more enjoyable than the hours spent hitting dummies in the Trade of Blades, as there is nothing that quite matches the feeling of getting interupted by a random player hitting the dummy for no reason at all after 491 at-will hits. The only thing stopping me from utilizing the training room for these tests, is the fact that you can not enter the training room with a party member ( @skingdev#1102 ).
These are the questions I would like to get answers to from the testing :
1. What is the base threat modifier for the Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin tank paragons ?
2. What % increase does the sentence "Increased Threat" translate to ? Is this the same for all paragons, or defined for each power ?
3. What % increase does powers that grant the effect "Your actions generate more threat" represent ? Is this the same for all paragons, or defined for each power ?
4. Do proximity play a role when it comes to aggro ?
5. Do control powers (Knock Back, Slow, Stun, Pull) generate threat ?
6. Do healing (Paladins Divine Touch) generate threat equal to threat generated by doing damage ?
7. Do self-healing (Fighters Second Wind, Barbarians Bloodletter + Primal Fury) generate threat equal to threat generated by doing damage ?
8. Do "overhealing" (healing over the amount of HP actually missing) generate threat, or is actual HP gained = threat generated ?
9. Will applying buffs/debuffs generate threat ?
In an effort to save myself from a few mental breakdowns, I decided to find every developer statement that could potentially ease the testing ;
I remembered a former dev giving details in the M16 Fighter feedback thread, but he is referring to possible changes before M16 launch :
Asterdahl giving details on threat in M16 Fighter feedback thread :
In these posts Asterdahl gives information that could answer a lot of the questions, but all testing done shows that the numbers are incorrect. @noworries#8859 stated that the base modifier for tanks was x4 in this interview :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdAiouwYLkE&t=1943s
The most interesting developer comment I found regarding threat generation was this :
The dev promises to provide FULL INFORMATION on tank threat modifiers "at some point in the future". Almost 3 years (and 6 full module releases) later, we still havent seen this information. The release of the Reapers Challenge could potentially mean a need for different tank loadouts, mening a perfect time to release this information.
Hi!
After having tested Fighter Vanguard threat generation an absurd amount of times since the M16 changes to tank threat generation, I decided to collect information for all 3 tank paragons. The introduction of the training room would make this a lot more enjoyable than the hours spent hitting dummies in the Trade of Blades, as there is nothing that quite matches the feeling of getting interupted by a random player hitting the dummy for no reason at all after 491 at-will hits. The only thing stopping me from utilizing the training room for these tests, is the fact that you can not enter the training room with a party member ( @skingdev#1102 ).
These are the questions I would like to get answers to from the testing :
1. What is the base threat modifier for the Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin tank paragons ?
2. What % increase does the sentence "Increased Threat" translate to ? Is this the same for all paragons, or defined for each power ?
3. What % increase does powers that grant the effect "Your actions generate more threat" represent ? Is this the same for all paragons, or defined for each power ?
4. Do proximity play a role when it comes to aggro ?
5. Do control powers (Knock Back, Slow, Stun, Pull) generate threat ?
6. Do healing (Paladins Divine Touch) generate threat equal to threat generated by doing damage ?
7. Do self-healing (Fighters Second Wind, Barbarians Bloodletter + Primal Fury) generate threat equal to threat generated by doing damage ?
8. Do "overhealing" (healing over the amount of HP actually missing) generate threat, or is actual HP gained = threat generated ?
9. Will applying buffs/debuffs generate threat ?
In an effort to save myself from a few mental breakdowns, I decided to find every developer statement that could potentially ease the testing ;
I remembered a former dev giving details in the M16 Fighter feedback thread, but he is referring to possible changes before M16 launch :
Asterdahl giving details on threat in M16 Fighter feedback thread :
In these posts Asterdahl gives information that could answer a lot of the questions, but all testing done shows that the numbers are incorrect. @noworries#8859 stated that the base modifier for tanks was x4 in this interview :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdAiouwYLkE&t=1943sThe most interesting developer comment I found regarding threat generation was this :
The dev promises to provide FULL INFORMATION on tank threat modifiers "at some point in the future". Almost 3 years (and 6 full module releases) later, we still havent seen this information. The release of the Reapers Challenge could potentially mean a need for different tank loadouts, mening a perfect time to release this information.
Elite Whaleboy
Post edited by wilbur626 on
9
Comments
This "4. Do proximity play a role when it comes to aggro ?" I have tested in Tiamat and I cant aggro mobs a certain distance away during the clerics phase to keep them away from the clerics. That could be because a) im not generating enough threat and b) DPS types tend to stand too close to the clerics.
Not sure if that helps or not]
Just as a GF Tank, I have poor results from enforced threat vs line breaker due to AOE and targeting.
But my Pally can grab attention from across a bridge.
Clarity would be nice.
These are my findings from my tests of Paladin Threat modifiers. Would be very nice if we could actually see these in-game and thus it can help us figure out how much offense we may need to ensure we can hold the aggro.
I'd especially love to see more answers related to the Intimidating Presence feat (which I see on your chart there Aragon, thank you). It supposedly causes Divine Champion to "greatly" increase threat generation, and you lose the blocking benefit for that. I'm trying to figure out a way to make it a useful play option. You do get some fancy looking wings from it, so maybe it's at least good for picking up chicks? Hmmm
If the Intimidating Presence version was redesigned to pulse out a "set me at top of threat list" taunt for the whole illuminated area around the Divine Champion tank, then I could see it being a useful option, and an interesting alternative to smite. For example, I suggest it could send out the first pulse after a 3 second delay, and then pulses every 3 seconds after that.
That ring is a common tank tool for aggro, so it would be nice to confirm the info, and to know further details such as the radius of effect and if the ring's threat magnitude is increased/decreased by other threat factors.
I didn't have the brand new threat enhancing artifact set on for this, that should give some improvement, but I did have the aggro-while-moving ring on and the extra threat while standing still from the diamond artifact set. Survival oriented build with remainders into power.
ps: Pumpkin-heads are the coolest, yay Halloween event
Thanks,
Walker
“ That is a lot of questions so I won't get to them all in order to give time for other questions.
The base threat multiplier for tanks is 4.5x
Increase % can be set individually by power, I'd have to check them all to see if they're currently all the same
I don't believe proximity factors in at all outside of being within a certain range to be considered in the fight in the first place”
That leaves 7 of 9 questions unanswered, could these be answered here in the forums @noworries#8859 ?
I'm hoping to get mine soon to test it, but in my experience DOTs aren't as good for keeping aggro as single big hits, so Band of Air is probably will be better. Some of it will depend on whether Ring of Darkness can stack (I don't know if it can), but even then I'd side with the Band. Band gives ~20-25% extra dps and each hit is like an extra encounter power - that's really good for aggro generation.
I think because we don't know how much extra threat we're generating does lead tanks to focus too much on dps stats. Unless you're going for a dps-tank build like Wilbur's, you're sacrificing survivability for miniscule extra damage that doesn't translate much into threat generating. Having a clear indicator, or understanding in the tooltips, as to how much threat tanks generate would be really helpful. Otherwise, DPS and healers have a solid understanding how their classes work, but tanks are left with vague senses of what powers are doing. It would be like a cc power saying "stun" or not indicating the range of an encounter.
I spent a few weeks testing aggro on a pally tank again. I was hoping to be able to grab aggro using regular attacks instead of hard taunts, running intimidating presence a lot. This was a tanky defense oriented build mind you, not a damage build, with only moderate power (between 50 and 60 percent) and other offensive stats left alone. This approach still doesn't seem workable sad to say.
I just hope the devs could adjust all tank classes to help manage aggro better.
1. Obvious bugs with powers (Paladin feat that should be increasing threat generation by 800% instead REDUCES threat generation by 800% for example).
2. DPS itemization vs. Tank itemization. You mention the Band of Air as an example, and in my opinion the only valid way for a tank to keep up with a DPS using BoA is to use BoA. This is an issue that will stay in the game as long as the devs keep thinking that adjusting threat modifiers on encounter powers is supposed to help. Increasing the BASE DAMAGE of tanks instead of the modifiers tied to skills with cooldowns would spread tank threat generation more evenly over the duration of the fights and thus smooth out the DPS threat generation spikes. During the M16 class rework, the developer in charge of the (Fighter) tank, made it clear that the goal was to have the tank role operate at about 70% of DPS damage output. What we have in the live game is tanks that may be able to reach 20% of endgame DPS if pushed to the extreme.This issue is only getting worse as the itemization keeps moving in favor of high burst DPS.
3. The developers lack of will to explain exactly how threat generation works. There is nothing in the game explaining how threat works, and the developers have been ignoring questions related to this MAJOR game mechanic for years. @noworries#8859 gave a very limited reply to the questions I asked (same questions as in the orignial post in this thread) in the latest Reddit AMA due to time restraints even when it was the most upvoted question in that AMA. I have done a lot of testing over the years and found that the three tank classes all have variations in threat generation. Example : Fighter has threat generation from pure damage dealt, paladin can have (at the moment broken) very strong threat generation from stacking outgoing healing and barbarians can increase threat generated by A LOT by stacking incoming healing (bloodletter/primal fury). The best way to help struggling tanks with understanding what skills to use when would of course be to modify tooltips to include INFORMATION NEEDED (threat generated, base threat modifier, skill threat modifiers) for tanks. As it is now, players have to calculate what skill will generate the most threat based on information that is NOT NEEDED (magnitude damage + in some cases "additional threat") given in extremely lacking tooltips
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
By the way yes control powers generate threat no idea about what the hidden numbers are though
This is out of party, missing 6k power from chest
Nice balance of tankiness and damage there. 👍
From what I remember checking of the Cleric/Paladin passives, they get something which "reduces the threat generated by heal powers".
> The ring of darkness lowers an enemies accuracy 30%, or gives everyone 30% deflect sev also. Main reason i still use.
Anyone know how this 30% accuracy drop for band of darkness target was tested? I've been looking for a reference and haven't been able to find it.
Thank you,
Walker
In theory, that's about 6% average damage reduction (with 45% deflect chance).
But it would be interesting to check the actual stats screen and potential stacking in PvP.
The DoT damage from different players stacks (independent ticks). The dps from it was almost as high as from the Band of Air on my paladin.
Appreciated,
Walker