Why is INDOMITABLE better? Just asking the question.

mwk
mwk Member Posts: 332 Arc User
edited December 2021 in General Discussion (PC)
What I don't understand is why Indomitable better? A Empowered 13 seems better by the stats for myself! Imagine if I used an Empowered Rank 15! I don't understand why Indomitable is better? I'm just asking the question.

[WHAT TO LOOK AT!]
Empowered Rank 13 gives me damage of 4,834 and with Empowered Rank 15, my character damage will be much higher than Indomitable Rank 15! So tell me is the combat testers wrong?! I'm really going by stats and stats don't lie!

Empowered Rank 13 having +448 companion Power over Indomitable rank 15 is a huge deal! Now with the Indomitable all the other companion stats are slightly margin higher, except the companion's Power.






So the companion stats difference are.....

{Empowered RANK 13} Only looking at higher stats compare
[Power] 7,974 - 7,526 *+448 INCREASE*

Lets save some time....Lets look at Indomitable RANK 15

{Indomitable RANK 15} Only looking at higher stats compare
[Health] 489,829 - 489,373 *+456 INCREASE* Note: Health increase might as well be item level of the companion.
[Power] 7,974 - 7,526 *-448 DECREASE*
[Accuracy] 5,786 - 5, 754 *+32 INCREASE*
[Combat Advantage] 5,786 - 5,754 *+32 INCREASE*
[Critical Strike] 7,774 - 7,742 *+32 INCREASE*

Test all the others....I'm LAZY but it states +32 INCREASE!

Technically the indomitable is only giving +32 increase on all the other companion stats, except companion's Power. +32 on all the other companion stats isn't much a big deal and it seems like nothing! Imagine the difference with Empowered Rank 15! I'm just looking at the stats and I'm trying to understand why doesn't it seem that Indomitable isn't giving me much?!

Please discuss this with me, because I'm trying to figure this out. Is +32 really a big difference?!


Cryptic needs to put a companion damage stat like our characters so that we can determine what indomitable is really doing. @nitocris83







Post edited by mwk on
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Comments

  • mrimsogood
    mrimsogood Member Posts: 147 Arc User
    Well if you actually bothered to read the inscription on the Indom you would see it says it give +20% damage increase to companions.
  • arazith07
    arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,442 Arc User
    It's not about the stats. Having a decent combat companion is like having an extra encounter power in terms of damage. Giving that extra encounter 6x 20% increased damage vs 6x600 power for all your powers is what the difference is at rank 15. The effect of indomitables will decrease if you have lower quality companions summoned.
  • irene#2829
    irene#2829 Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Rank 15 has higher combined ratings, hence it boost the others stats slightly.

    Combined rating is everything except power and HP.

    Also damage is calculated by item level. Rank 15 boost item level slightly.
  • mwk
    mwk Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    @arazith07 My companion is the highest quality by the way. Since you make the comment-The effect of indomitables will decrease if you have lower quality companions summoned.
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,375 Arc User
    This is not an easy question to answer. You probably need to run parses to get a good answer.

    Things OP did not consider in his argument:
    * The key to the indomitables is the 20% damage increase on companions. However: The companion damage has been severely nerfed the last 6 months - that new companions now are BiS also means the total companion base damage output is lower. This reduces the value of indomitables.
    * OP is comparing on the Power stat. However, when running indomitables you always compensate for the power stat deficiency other places in your gear. So it likely will be Accuracy that in the end takes the hit.
    * Damage comparisons always need to specify if you compare the scaled or nonscaled scenario. Since your IL does not matter in the scaled scenario, the result likely will differ significantly. And then you need to discuss if you need your gear most for scaled or nonscaled content.

    In particular after the recent companion damage reduction I think there is a good reason to revisit the indomitables meta however. It might no longer be correct for best dps. Actually you could ask if augments might be in a better position now.
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    If 1% Power = 1% damage then 6x600 means a personal damage increase of 3.6% with 6x rank 15 Empowered runestones.

    Having 6x rank 15 Indomitables at +20% damage each means a total companion damage increase of 120%.

    So you're comparing an extra 3.6% damage from yourself against your companion doing and extra 120%. Assuming you have one of the top DPS companions, that 120% should definitely exceed a boost of 3.6% boost to yourself.

    @mentinmindmaker is ofc correct that the base companion damage is key here and if Cryptic keep nerfing companions then Indomitables will cease to be as effective a dps boost.
    Post edited by armadeonx on
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  • mintmark
    mintmark Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 126 Arc User

    Rank 15 has higher combined ratings, hence it boost the others stats slightly.

    Combined rating is everything except power and HP.

    Also damage is calculated by item level. Rank 15 boost item level slightly.

    I think combined rating affects power too... and hitpoints come from item level (but seem to be affected by other things too).
  • greywynd
    greywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,462 Arc User
    Power has a hard cap that is easy to hit. I like that my companion is capable of helping inflict serious damage.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • froger#9967
    froger#9967 Member Posts: 574 Arc User
    MXGA
    Make Xuna Great Again!!

    My reason for using indominable is the stats granted by other runestones don't make much of a difference in my game play. Also, I have them leftover from Xuna, so I use them. I kinda wish they increased a companion's healing / control / threat / by 20%.
    Froger - Barbarian - Original Main - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
    Booster Shot - Cleric - Healer Main - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
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  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,470 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    For most of my characters, getting extra power means getting nothing. Hence, in my case, using Indomitable is better than empowered. Anything is better than nothing.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • mwk
    mwk Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Do you think 3 empowered and 3 indomitable will be ideal? I do use a 20% companion damage mount insignia bonus. Though for some reason I never really noticed a 'huge' impact.

    I have done some testing on dummies at stronghold (Combat Log)

    Indomitable: I got smaller critical hits more often and every once in awhile got a huge hit bigger than empowered. 20K+ hit or so.

    Empowered: I got more higher critical more often. 16-18K+ and very rare will get 20K+ I did get a 26K+ very very rare

    With indomitable I might hit 26K+ more often than empowered, which I noticed.

    It's questionable. Though I'm not noticing a huge difference.

    The fact that I have critical strike, critical severity, and power with high numbers on my companion, I have less diminishing. I do more higher critical hits more often. Meaning I do 16-18K+ more constant than indomitable with empowered.

    I'm still in the testing phase of this. However, indomitable is probably helping at times for players to have a huge jump of damage every once in awhile on companion. Though the downside is that smaller critical hits will be more often. I'm not for sure, though looking at combat log, this is what it looks like to me.

    Honestly again I will repeat myself, I don't notice much a difference since I'm stacked on my companion to do critical strike, critical severity, and adding power. So I hit quite hard anyways with my companion. :3

    My hawk hits quite hard for some reason. There could be better companions, but I have upgraded him to be the highest rank. Also I have an attachment with my hawk. It feels iconic for my character. I feel like never changing.

    [So testing on dummies at stronghold (Combat Log)]

    Indomitable: 5K, 5K, 7K, 11K, 18K, 11K, 14K, 20K, more often got 26K
    Empowered: 7K, 6K, 7K, 14K, 14K, 16K, 16K, 18K, 20K.

    I was noticing 16K and 18K damage with my companion more often with empowered and it's not even a rank 15; the indomitable is rank 15!

    I'm thinking indomitable has some slight waking up and that's questionable. Though indomitable does have a dramatic jump more often than empowered.
    Post edited by mwk on
  • admiralwarlord#3792
    admiralwarlord#3792 Member Posts: 545 Arc User
    Today when doing ECC in RC I saw that the healer was using the Golden Bulett Pup and I was wondering if there would be more gain for the player and for the group if he was using a companion for example Dedicated Squire and in my head everything I thought it was a waste, as if he had a fellow healer it would make up for the stats he gained and if it was a group buffer it would make everyone stronger.

    Good thing there are different perspectives on the game these days.
  • arazith07
    arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,442 Arc User
    mwk said:

    Do you think 3 empowered and 3 indomitable will be ideal? I do use a 20% companion damage mount insignia bonus. Though for some reason I never really noticed a 'huge' impact.

    Ultimately it's on you to decide how you want to play. Without having a DPS parser, you can't be sure which will give you the higher dps. Do you need the power? What about when you get all your goal gear? I know I enjoy my little Pseudodragon going around and chopping enemy heads off as I root and thunk enemies with arrows. It's not meta, but I enjoy myself so IDGAF.
  • mwk
    mwk Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    -------------Deleted, because my thoughts are put on my last post---------------

    I apologize for this. I like to be organized on my thoughts, rather then it seeming like I'm repeating myself for others to understand where I'm coming from.

  • arazith07
    arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,442 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    What companion are you using? Your numbers are about what my Pseudodragon's poison ticks are. Bite does 40-60k and Initial hit of Poison sting is ~60k+ for me. (no combat advantage and 4 indoms)
  • irene#2829
    irene#2829 Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited December 2021

    I saw that the healer was using the Golden Bulett Pup and I was wondering if there would be more gain for the player and for the group if he was using a companion for example Dedicated Squire

    Unlike DPS where you can boost the companion to 120%, there is no outgoing heal runestone. It is better for the healer to have augment companion to boost his / her stats and keep you alive when you take damage. Relying on the companion to heal a little at the right time is not realistic. The Dedicated Squire is supposed to cast cleanse to remove bad status, but I hardly see any difference when squire is present in the team.
  • mwk
    mwk Member Posts: 332 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    What companion are you using? Your numbers are about what my Pseudodragon's poison ticks are. Bite does 40-60k and Initial hit of Poison sting is ~60k+ for me. (no combat advantage and 4 indoms)

    I don't have all rank 15 runestones. Only one rank 15 and the rest are mostly 12 or 11. Hawk and it's upgraded as I stated. The red-tail hawk one, not the other one that's hunting hawk.

    And have you tested on stronghold dummies? Because that's what I tested on. It will be much different on other mobs.

    Honestly there might be not much of a difference for me since I'm stacked on my companion to do critical strike, critical severity, and adding power.


  • plasticbat
    plasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 10,470 Arc User
    There is a problem with stronghold dummies and does not give proper result. I forget what exactly it is. Dummy in another area seems to be okay.
    *** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
  • mwk
    mwk Member Posts: 332 Arc User

    There is a problem with stronghold dummies and does not give proper result. I forget what exactly it is. Dummy in another area seems to be okay.

    Ok thanks

  • rockster#6227
    rockster#6227 Member Posts: 821 Arc User

    Today when doing ECC in RC I saw that the healer was using the Golden Bulett Pup and I was wondering if there would be more gain for the player and for the group if he was using a companion for example Dedicated Squire and in my head everything I thought it was a waste, as if he had a fellow healer it would make up for the stats he gained and if it was a group buffer it would make everyone stronger.

    Good thing there are different perspectives on the game these days.

    The G.Bulette Pup gives extra outgoing heal when it's summoned as well (has it in it's stats), so not only do you have the 7.5% extra outgoing heal power slotted no matter what, but having it summoned also gives you even more, helping you get closer to your 90%. Further, having any augment companion summoned also gives you 100% uptime chance with the power you choose 'when your companion is near' (top left in the companion tiles) so if you still need to boost your outgoing heal even more you have it up (by using the outgoing heal bonus power in that slot as well) much more often than if your companion is running away to the mob while you're further away. Or if your outgoing heal is already at or close to 90%, you can slot another one there so the summoned Bulette is giving you the extra outgoing heal to get it up to or close to max, and you still have the max possible uptime in whatever power you have slotted top left because an augment is always by your side.

    So choosing to have the Bulette summoned makes sense if you really want to control your heals and where they go and have them as large as possible, but there is also something to be said for having a companion such as the squire who does extra healing at different times which may prove helpful if you find yourself running out of Divinity and at moments when you're unable to throw out a heal at an exact moment you need one, you may get lucky and have the companion cover for you. In a very high-end dungeon where healing was a priority I would probably go with having 90% outgoing heal over having an active healing companion because I could control where the heals went and when and would know they were as effective as possible. Of course if someone has their outgoing heal at 90% without the stats from the Bulette summoned, they could do both.
  • mentinmindmaker
    mentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,375 Arc User
    edited December 2021

    I saw that the healer was using the Golden Bulett Pup and I was wondering if there would be more gain for the player and for the group if he was using a companion for example Dedicated Squire

    Unlike DPS where you can boost the companion to 120%, there is no outgoing heal runestone. It is better for the healer to have augment companion to boost his / her stats and keep you alive when you take damage. Relying on the companion to heal a little at the right time is not realistic. The Dedicated Squire is supposed to cast cleanse to remove bad status, but I hardly see any difference when squire is present in the team.
    Assuming you have enough heal to keep the party mostly alive:

    The other major contribution a healer can give to the party is buff/debuff.

    On my cleric I am running a succubus companion for the debuffs as well as for some small damage.

    It probably is only in the highest endgame zones you might need so maxed healing that you should consider running a heal-boosting companion.
  • armadeonx
    armadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    For a clearer understanding of the difference you really need more information on the damage that different companions can do so I've included a link to a comparison done by @aragon#8379

    companion single target comparison

    It doesn't appear to have the hawk you mentioned but you'll note the Hunting Hawk is ranked at 95th in DPS output. Obviously, the more damage your companion does, the more effective the Indomitables will be.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD


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  • aragon#8379
    aragon#8379 Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    With 6 max rank 15 indomitable runestones you can gain up to 120% more damage for your companion.
    Comparatively you could gain (600x6=3,600) 3.6% power. Now that only equates to about a 2% overall damage increase, when close to the cap in power.

    So then you look at how much damage your companion can output. If you as a player can output, let's say, 250k Dps and your companion 15k Dps (without Indoms). Your companion is only outputting about 6% of your own damage.

    Then we have the choice, Indomitable runestones for +120% companion damage or Empowered Runstones for +2% overall damage. Which is better?

    Well, 15k x 2.2 = 33k and that is how much damage your companion will now deal as Dps. Which is 13.2% total damage from your companion. From 6% to 13.2% = 7.2% damage increase or a 18k Dps increase.

    However, if we add 2% to our damage, 250k x 1.02 = 255k, and 2% to our companion 15k x 1.02 = 15.3k.
    (255 - 250 = 5) + (15.3 - 15 = 0.3) Total of 5.3k DPs increase.

    So ultimately your looking at either a 18k Dps increase with Indoms. Or a 5.3k Dps increase with Empowereds!
  • admiralwarlord#3792
    admiralwarlord#3792 Member Posts: 545 Arc User

    Today when doing ECC in RC I saw that the healer was using the Golden Bulett Pup and I was wondering if there would be more gain for the player and for the group if he was using a companion for example Dedicated Squire and in my head everything I thought it was a waste, as if he had a fellow healer it would make up for the stats he gained and if it was a group buffer it would make everyone stronger.

    Good thing there are different perspectives on the game these days.

    The G.Bulette Pup gives extra outgoing heal when it's summoned as well (has it in it's stats), so not only do you have the 7.5% extra outgoing heal power slotted no matter what, but having it summoned also gives you even more, helping you get closer to your 90%. Further, having any augment companion summoned also gives you 100% uptime chance with the power you choose 'when your companion is near' (top left in the companion tiles) so if you still need to boost your outgoing heal even more you have it up (by using the outgoing heal bonus power in that slot as well) much more often than if your companion is running away to the mob while you're further away. Or if your outgoing heal is already at or close to 90%, you can slot another one there so the summoned Bulette is giving you the extra outgoing heal to get it up to or close to max, and you still have the max possible uptime in whatever power you have slotted top left because an augment is always by your side.

    So choosing to have the Bulette summoned makes sense if you really want to control your heals and where they go and have them as large as possible, but there is also something to be said for having a companion such as the squire who does extra healing at different times which may prove helpful if you find yourself running out of Divinity and at moments when you're unable to throw out a heal at an exact moment you need one, you may get lucky and have the companion cover for you. In a very high-end dungeon where healing was a priority I would probably go with having 90% outgoing heal over having an active healing companion because I could control where the heals went and when and would know they were as effective as possible. Of course if someone has their outgoing heal at 90% without the stats from the Bulette summoned, they could do both.
    I won't say you're wrong about the numbers, but I'd like you to see my point: If you have an Owlbear Cub like I do, I used it as a way to maximize my accuracy cap on my GWF and get the bonus from Overpenetration, simply using 6 accuracy runestones + companion bonus; Even if you use GBP you don't have runestonestones for you to maximize this stat and the gain of this stat is minimal through the companion bonus. Even though you don't control healing or companion buffs, I believe these are more effective than any augmentation companion.



  • rockster#6227
    rockster#6227 Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    Augments used to be a great choice, I personally used them exclusively in place of actives all the time for years because they added so many stats, it really did make up then for the lack of damage the companion wasn't doing. But then they nerfed them into the ground like they do everything else and one day I realized it wasn't worth using an augment unless I needed it for a specific reason, such as not attacking the end boss in LoMM at the end and so on. Now I swap between actives and augments depending on what I need and most of the time it's actives tbh. I agree with you that generally speaking actives make more sense. I was just laying-out some reasons that person you saw may have been using the Golden Bulette Pup.
  • rockster#6227
    rockster#6227 Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    Question on Indoms: Someone told me they have a diminishing return when more than one are used, is that the case?
  • silente07#2597
    silente07#2597 Member Posts: 342 Arc User
    It’s the warlords inspiration that’s diminishing returns. I believe that more than 2 actually works against you and the second one is only working out to be a 1% bump.
    But I’m on console so don’t have ACT to give you numbers.
  • rockster#6227
    rockster#6227 Member Posts: 821 Arc User
    Oh ok ty, whoever was saying it (I forget who it was but it was only the other day) was saying it was Indoms.
  • arazith07
    arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,442 Arc User

    Question on Indoms: Someone told me they have a diminishing return when more than one are used, is that the case?

    You'll need a DPS parser to verify, but not sure if their buffs are additive or multiplicative. However with difference shouldn't be too much when compared to the amount of power added.
  • arcanjo86
    arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,092 Arc User
    this will not mather in next module check preview changes to enchantments and runestones