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  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,841 Arc User
    edited March 26
    Well, reading through other (reddit, Steam) forums, i doubt that a new player is going to spend money here, considering they get their asses handed to them during questing or dungeon runs on a daily basis since the "Combat Rework".

    Earning AD through daily RDQ runs and of course leveling up a new character takes more time for them now too, and i doubt that most new players are going to stick around until the Devs have found a better balance to that either, they'll (the new players...) just move on to another game and Neverlookback.

    Anyway, currently spending more time with building up my Garrison in WoW then playing around in NWO, ViP is running out in about 2 weeks, but i see no good reason for adding more time to it...
    Post edited by regenerde on
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 337 Arc User
    The issue I see in here is that the people who are using the infinite loop of making AD in the exchange are only giving out suggestions that will just delay the exchange for a short period of time. The main thing that needs to happen to fix the issue with the ZAX that doesn't include removing it is to shut down the infinite loop of AD earning. The backlog from what I can see is directly due to this issue. If we remove the ability to earn more AD than what you put into Zen you would see a huge difference in the ZAX for the positive. You would only see people use the exchange for items that they themselves will use. This would mean that people would rather open astral lock boxes as you could sell the contents in them over the lockboxes from the zen store. Cryptic wouldn't see any difference in profit from people buying zen to the exchange than from zen to item sales. The fact they have allowed this loop in the exchange to continue is why they are seeing the threads on this issue. The people in here clamoring for changes to the exchange that only delay getting to the same spot in the near future.

    Something else that people don't realize is that when players come to this game you have some players who are willing to purchase things to play. You also have some that only play it if it is free and they can see progression. The ZAX gives people who don't pay a feeling that they can continue on by getting items that would normally be locked behind a pay wall. Cryptic is doing this all wrong as they shouldn't care if the need to buy zen is from someone who will use the exchange or someone who will use the zen store. They make money either way. Those players that pay and those that won't usually come in groups. This means that a group that comes in with people who won't will leave the game as a group too. If they don't want to chase out some of the people that pay they need to also accommodate those that won't pay.

    They currently can't give out any sales right now with the current setup because each sale or coupon used is a way for the players who want to make AD off of selling zen items to make more than the 10% reduction in AD in the game in the auction house. Then they continue the loop because they could use the sale/coupon to beat the system.

    The only options that would permenantly fix the exchange are the following:
    -Unbalanced sales of AD items that are extremely better than Zen items followed by Zen items that are better based on ZAX balance needs. This doesn't seem to be something that cryptic is interested in as the AD items they continue to push are worse off than the Zen purchase options at almost all times.
    -Bind to account all zen store items. This removes the loop of making AD in the exchange and forces players to only use the exchange for what they will use themselves. The only mad group in this is those that are abusing the loop which looks to be most of the players in this forum giving advice.
    -Remove the exchange. This fixes the problem with people having a loop to make AD in the game but also will make some players unhappy since a new player to the game won't be able to get things such as VIP without paying for it. How many will quite the game if they have to sit at a camp fire for 30seconds to 2 minutes every 10 minutes or so of game play. This is the biggest reason to get VIP since a lot of the dungeons have a lot of deaths involved.
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  • spelldazerspelldazer Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    @thefiresidecat I expect whatever rework is coming will be bundled with a new vip scheme. This was briefly raised in the cdp and is in keeping with the types of end to end overhaul the game has been getting. The deliberate inflation and introduction of updated lockboxes for AD de facto mean:
    1. AD sink that helps balance Zen backlog or at least alleviate some of the pain
    LEADING TO
    2. AH prices crashing due to flooding from lockboxes
    At that point, I can see a new paradigm being introduced for the purchase of new "highly sought after rewards".

    It is worth keeping in mind that Cryptic build on top of a common game-development infrastructure shared by other PWE owned games. Zen is part of that and any significant changes would have to be accommodated (or mandated) by that code base. In other words, if a new exchange infrastructure gets pushed from the common platform then Cryptic have to implement it or work with it. Conversely, whatever in-game changes Cryptic implement must still comply with the infra they run on and whatever roadmap it has. I can imagine cross-platform play and mobile support being things PWE have on their roadmap.

    I don't see the exchange simply going away at this point anymore than the AH vanishing. Not saying it won't or can't happen. I see it as unlikely due to the impact to the game. I do see a new "currency" (trade paradigm, whatever you want to call it) being introduced in such a way that the current wealth is essentially erased. Embrace-extend-extinguish is definitely in keeping with how the studio has handled things in recent years, in my view.

    Finally, there is one more issue that may or may not bear relevance and that is regulation concerning the purchase of lootcrates. I am not up to date on the latest so just raising this as an aside to keep in mind. Zen functions as a buffer that affords the company protection against accusations that players gamble with real money etc. (zen doesn't actually give you anything in return. You have to exchange it further to get any use out of it and you can't buy a lockbox with it, only keys). So, if there is any new regulation necessitating adjustments to how Zen is handled then that will likely be implemented across all of PWE's IP.

    I agree that getting an update on what is going to happen and when would be the proper thing to do. A head's up beyond what has already been said would surely be a welcome surprise. Not holding my breath.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 925 Arc User
    AD sinks is worst thing ever.. Very wording in nonsense..

    Current neverwinter craft and proffesions are AD and Gold sink tools, and what happening? No one do crafting. Maye some, very few who try do it. If you add more AD sink = player will skip such features and nothing change at all. So what the point to repeat same mistake??


    AD must not get sink somewhere, it must flow, not stuck in one place. The market must flow.
    But how can it be if game is too much focused on VIP.

    I mean, lets be honest real reason why everyone rush exchange AD for zen in ZAX system is for VIP.
    VIP issue

    VIP give you 1 enchanted key per day for one month, so it's 30 keys. And it cost 1k zen ( vip for one month).
    For x10 enchanted keys pack you pay 1.125k zen. But it's not just keys, also provide discount in Vondrous bazzar, no AH depositing fee, and even some reward reroll tokens.

    With current AD/ZEN rates ( 1 zen = 750 AD) you need 750k ad to get 1k zen and there for you can buy 1 month VIP service.
    In that one month, with keys you may get something, even best rewards but something, you sell in AH and get back some of AD in your pocket.. If lucky get mount/companion or other packs, and sell them.. There for gained AD throw in ZAX to grab any free ZEN remained in ZAX system.

    But there is also other, safe way milk AD. And it's via Vondrous bazaar. Mark of potency for non VIP cost 75k ad. While in AH you can buy for 65k. even 70k ad will be better than 75k. But who put these stones in AH? The VIP player. So any non VIP who bought potency mark from AH, gives their AD to VIP player who use to renew or maintain VIP.

    But thats not all, while account wide mounts are great feature for players, it's terrible feature when comes market. I mean, if player got one mount and bind to his character, all his alts will get same mount for free.. And if he get same mount, then obviously he will sell it.. Cuz he don't need it..

    The market is overflood with items, they are not get burned away due failure upgrade, there is no burning away mounts. More less there is nothing who would balance market.. I knew players who have 7 alts and each alt had own guilds, and each guild bansk full of stuffs..

    So new players who come play game and see that game is less mmo and more solo play, and game demand you use VIP in order play thisgame.. They simply turn arround and move elsewhere..


    So the whole thing is that VIP become center of the game, instead being alternative currency as how it should be..
    You don't want grind to lv up, you pay for shortcut. You don't want farm preservation wards, you pay for it. Thats what purpose where for ZEN and it's store..
    But with VIP it's lost it's path.



    Solution:

    Remove VIP from zen store, add to website.. You want VIP, pay for it, and for real.

    And lets quit this illusion that players get their VIP's via ZAX. Majority players pay real cash for zen, which spend for VIP. So it will not change anything.
    Other thing, last week our alliance congratulated one of member, who got ZEN via ZAX. For which he apply in october, last year. So if math not lie, it;s more than 5 month waiting.

    But while VIP is moved to website, there must be separated services in ZEN. More less seprated VIP's features..

    Quick traveling = x zen.
    Auction House deposit fee removal = x zen.

    Enchanted key for daily = x zen, however the price must be calculate so it would be just ~15% cheaper than what you would pay for x30 key pack.

    As for AD sinks,, Why not add also features in wondrous bazaar. Like Vouchers for AH deposit discounts for certain sum iems.
    As exmple voucher for 7 days, you pay x AD, and you don't have pay deposit fee for items who are cheaper than 1kk.

    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • spelldazerspelldazer Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    @hadestemplar#9918 I would not play the game if your changes were implemented. Would you really be willing to pay $ for the things you propose? Remember, this would be an ongoing expense. The game is practically unplayable to me without vip12 perks. I'd sooner quit. And with ESO becoming F2P on Game Pass, xbox players certainly have options now.

    Also, crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 583 Arc User
    I always thought I couldn't play without VIP. It is possible if you are REALLY determined not to use your zen.

    Altho I am also thinking that this situation is actually fortunate. They still have the possibility of exchanging currency ingame which is the first and best indicator that the game is theoretically ftp, but it is in a state where people are inconvenienced to use it for their profit. I mean, you still can. But it takes longer, and it needs some planning, which is not something everybody wants to do in a game.

    And professions are and always will be sinks IF (and only then) the currently available items are BIS. In the early times of M15 and briefly with MW weapons people were producing fast, and that always works as a sink.
    Also, the way it was talked about in the CDP, I doubt it will stay as it is because the devs know that VIP = profit. There surely is an approach planned for this that doesn't upset players too much at the get-go. Even if you lowered the value of keys by changing the droprates from what people mostly sell (that seems like junk but adds up, like vouchers) it would impact the profit you gain from VIP, combined with the backlog.. to result in a net loss.
    - bye bye -
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 925 Arc User

    @hadestemplar#9918 I would not play the game if your changes were implemented. Would you really be willing to pay $ for the things you propose? Remember, this would be an ongoing expense. The game is practically unplayable to me without vip12 perks. I'd sooner quit. And with ESO becoming F2P on Game Pass, xbox players certainly have options now.


    Also, crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator.


    I guess I need to repeat few lines from previous comment..

    First thing, do you think most players obtained VIP by getting zen from ZAX? If you think in such way, then I am sorry to dissapoint you. That's not how it is. Very very very few got it, some more lucky some less lucky.. Some waited 6 month to get 1k zen so they could buy VIP. Do you think all players waited all this time? No. They paid for ZEN with own real money.

    So why don't we quit this illusion.?

    As for non playedble without VIP. Well this is problem too. I stopped being VIP prior mod 10 release. There for I see all problems from different view point. But in any case,, clealing up mess is required.

    AS long VIP remain how it is,, ZAX backlog remain and all other game problems severity just keep increasing..

    You mentioned ESO F2P, so what. There are more than ESO outside. There are lot of other mmo games outside.. And this is reason why players don't stay long here..

    It's not combat changes what discourage new players remain here, but that game is too much focused arround VIP.
    I would use other well known wording.. but you know it's forbiden to call this game in such way..

    But fact is if remain on same path with VIP, then game will not die, but player base decline will be obvious.

    So staff have to choose, either put their faith to whales or new players.. I think game was about whales for some time, and clrearly show it goes. :)
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,391 Arc User

    @hadestemplar#9918 I would not play the game if your changes were implemented. Would you really be willing to pay $ for the things you propose? Remember, this would be an ongoing expense. The game is practically unplayable to me without vip12 perks. I'd sooner quit. And with ESO becoming F2P on Game Pass, xbox players certainly have options now.


    Also, crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator.


    I guess I need to repeat few lines from previous comment..

    First thing, do you think most players obtained VIP by getting zen from ZAX? If you think in such way, then I am sorry to dissapoint you. That's not how it is. Very very very few got it, some more lucky some less lucky.. Some waited 6 month to get 1k zen so they could buy VIP. Do you think all players waited all this time? No. They paid for ZEN with own real money.

    So why don't we quit this illusion.?
    What is that based on? Practically everyone (with perhaps an exception or two) I know have their ViP from ZAX.


    AS long VIP remain how it is,, ZAX backlog remain and all other game problems severity just keep increasing..

    I don't understand why ViP is the main cause of the backlog. Looks to me like there are much more significant contributors, like the enchantment packs, mount/companion tokens, and obviously the wards re-sell on the AH.


    It's not combat changes what discourage new players remain here, but that game is too much focused arround VIP.
    I would use other well known wording.. but you know it's forbiden to call this game in such way..

    But fact is if remain on same path with VIP, then game will not die, but player base decline will be obvious.

    Again, not sure I understand the "game is too much focused around ViP" part.
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
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    ;)
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,193 Arc User
    edited March 26

    @hadestemplar#9918 I would not play the game if your changes were implemented. Would you really be willing to pay $ for the things you propose? Remember, this would be an ongoing expense. The game is practically unplayable to me without vip12 perks. I'd sooner quit. And with ESO becoming F2P on Game Pass, xbox players certainly have options now.


    Also, crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator.


    I guess I need to repeat few lines from previous comment..

    First thing, do you think most players obtained VIP by getting zen from ZAX? If you think in such way, then I am sorry to dissapoint you. That's not how it is. Very very very few got it, some more lucky some less lucky.. Some waited 6 month to get 1k zen so they could buy VIP. Do you think all players waited all this time? No. They paid for ZEN with own real money.

    Many I know get VIP using Zax. I get my VIP using Zax non-stop since VIP was introduced. If one plan to get VIP one month at a time, month by month, sure, that will be very tough since Zax takes about 6 months now. I don't buy VIP for next month. I buy VIP for next year. I only buy 6 month package when Zen store in its biggest discount of the year.

    VIP is not the cause of the backlog. VIP is something people wants to buy from Zen store. With the biggest discount on the 6 month package, it is less than 7200 Zen for a year. It is not a big amount for something lasting a year. It is a tiny amount comparing with the pack that may only last for a mod. It is a tiny amount comparing with those who buy wards from Zen store. It is a tiny amount comparing with those using Zax as a loop to generate AD.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 925 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    What is that based on? Practically everyone (with perhaps an exception or two) I know have their ViP from ZAX.

    Information based on players with whom I spoke when I doing random q stuffs with pugs. Not alliance, members, but with pugs. Thats mean casual/ random players..

    Also I didn't say that all, get VIP by paying for real. But the majority pugs I met and spoke. Some waited 6 months, some 4 months till they managet get zen via ZAX.

    Your friends got VIP via ZAX good for them. But not all are so lucky..


    I don't understand why ViP is the main cause of the backlog. Looks to me like there are much more significant contributors, like the enchantment packs, mount/companion tokens, and obviously the wards re-sell on the AH.

    And where these packs come from? It's not like their apear from thin air without any reasons.


    Again, not sure I understand the "game is too much focused around ViP" part.
    Why not simply do this way.. Create new account, no VIP, no zen, no max out stuffs( enchantments). And play with it for a short time.. You will see differences by yourself.. It's no point for me write down.

    I only can ask this > would be rather spend 1.125k zen for 1 month vip, or for x10 enchanted key pack. And in general, would buy companions/mounts from zen store or spend same sum of zen for VIP?.



    All current solutions how fix ZAX backlog comes from players who have VIP and it's obviously I expected similar reaction. Thats how it always where, and always be.. No one want to give away some portion of features, it's natural thing.

    But how many of here manage to look to ZAX issue from non VIP and company view point?
    For company is actually profitable this backlog, as long other players spend real moneys for VIP's.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 925 Arc User


    Also, crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator.

    Rly?
    have you recently used crafting? And if it would be as you say, the crafting would be insane active, which sadly is not a case..
    What players do with masterwork is gather materials, and latter sell off, when there are least available of them.

    But as active crafting and making AD from it? hah. Have you looked for crafted items prices?? And I mean the items which worth to sell. Most of them sells almost for it's base value. And if you don't have VIP, it's hardly the you will be able do marketing.
    I have non MW at max for all professions.. Can;t find anything worth to sell, most items in AH are so cheap that you buy almost for it's very base prices.. For MW all proffesions at lv 2, while alchemy at max. And still nothing worth to sell.


    Many I know get VIP using Zax. I get my VIP using Zax non-stop since VIP was introduced. If one plan to get VIP one month at a time, month by month, sure, that will be very tough since Zax takes about 6 months now. I don't buy VIP for next month. I buy VIP for next year. I only buy 6 month package when Zen store in its biggest discount of the year.

    VIP is not the cause of the backlog. VIP is something people wants to buy from Zen store. With the biggest discount on the 6 month package, it is less than 7200 Zen for a year. It is not a big amount for something lasting a year. It is a tiny amount comparing with the pack that may only last for a mod. It is a tiny amount comparing with those who buy wards from Zen store. It is a tiny amount comparing with those using Zax as a loop to generate AD.

    I am not new in this game.. I counted black friday discounts too. And in the end, do you think Non VIP"s have anything to do with ZAX?

    Non VIP's simply don't participate in zen stuffs at all. So telling that VIP is not reason of ZAX current issues.. It's like tell drunk driver who just crashed car that alcohol in his veins is not a cause of this accident. :) He never admit that. :)
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,391 Arc User


    Your friends got VIP via ZAX good for them. But not all are so lucky..

    First, the fact that pugs didn't get ZEN in 5 months doesn't mean they bought ViP.
    Second, most players are f2p. So in advance it's improbable that most players pay for ViP with cash.


    And where these packs come from? It's not like their apear from thin air without any reasons.

    The packs like all things listed there are from the ZEN shop, which you don't need ViP to access.

    Also the most significant thing is that you can have ViP or not, but the total investment in ViP is limited, what you will do? buy 20 years of VIP? People buy half year or a year (at anniversary and blackfriday) and that's it. Packs and wards you can rotate tens of thousands of ZEN.

    There is a difference if a person uses 100k ZEN to re-sell stuff, or 10k to buy ViP....


    Why not simply do this way.. Create new account, no VIP, no zen, no max out stuffs( enchantments). And play with it for a short time.. You will see differences by yourself.. It's no point for me write down.

    I only can ask this > would be rather spend 1.125k zen for 1 month vip, or for x10 enchanted key pack. And in general, would buy companions/mounts from zen store or spend same sum of zen for VIP?.

    No one argues that ViP is good for new players, but that says nothing about the backlog, volume and with what new players buy something.

    A thousand new players trying to get 1k ZEN for ViP is 1mil ZEN. The backlog is what now? 70mil. With ~400k per day fulfillment.

    PS: Obviously I've leveled all my playable chars without ViP. There wasn't ViP at the time.


    All current solutions how fix ZAX backlog comes from players who have VIP and it's obviously I expected similar reaction. Thats how it always where, and always be.. No one want to give away some portion of features, it's natural thing.

    But how many of here manage to look to ZAX issue from non VIP and company view point?
    For company is actually profitable this backlog, as long other players spend real moneys for VIP's.

    All good but I still don't see the relation of ViP and the backlog. Players also need wards, what you think they spend more on wards or ViP?
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    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,331 Arc User

    micky1p00 said:


    What is that based on? Practically everyone (with perhaps an exception or two) I know have their ViP from ZAX.

    Information based on players with whom I spoke when I doing random q stuffs with pugs. Not alliance, members, but with pugs. Thats mean casual/ random players..

    Also I didn't say that all, get VIP by paying for real. But the majority pugs I met and spoke. Some waited 6 months, some 4 months till they managet get zen via ZAX.
    So you join a random pug and just casually say to people you have never talked to before: "so, how do you guys buy your vip?"

    I believe you are being disingenuous in order to push an agenda.

    It seems to me that you would personally benefit from the changes you've suggested as you are more interested in market prices for items resold in the AH and that you are putting your personal interests before that of the playerbase as a whole but selling it as "good for the game".

    I would also add that 90% of the people I know in the game buy their vip via the zax.
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  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    edited March 27
    As it is, the ZAX basically is there to support the non-paying players.

    For the paying players the purpose of the ZAX is to convert Zen to AD, and that can be better done by selling Zen items on the AH.

    So the big question is: How important are the non-paying players to Cryptic? They do not make any money for Cryptic, but they do contribute to active and living servers. Non-paying players can over time transition to paying players.
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,841 Arc User
    edited March 27


    ...
    Non VIP's simply don't participate in zen stuffs at all. So telling that VIP is not reason of ZAX current issues.. It's like tell drunk driver who just crashed car that alcohol in his veins is not a cause of this accident. :) He never admit that. :)

    Well, right back at you,
    + always problems with ZEN Charge Promotions, most of the good account wide rewards were removed from them
    + AD sinks are hardly working or not used properly, otherwise we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place
    + no real customer support
    + bugs and issues in game for a very long time, no real feedback when they're about to get fixed
    + no respect for the time and money players have invested into the game
    just my top 5, there're more problems here affecting the ZAX indirectly, and those should be worked on first.

    And when the drunk driver has to use a company car, that hasn't gotten necessary maintenance for years, because the company is either just lazy or tries to cut costs at every step, the inevitable crash isn't the drivers fault alone...
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,441 Arc User

    As it is, the ZAX basically is there to support the non-paying players.

    For the paying players the purpose of the ZAX is to convert Zen to AD, and that can be better done by selling Zen items on the AH.

    So the big question is: How important are the non-paying players to Cryptic? They do not make any money for Cryptic, but they do contribute to active and living servers. Non-paying players can over time transition to paying players.


    without the ftp players you have a very empty game and the people who give money will walk away to other games wiht a higher population. it's a fact.


  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,193 Arc User
    edited March 27


    Also, crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator.

    Rly?
    have you recently used crafting? And if it would be as you say, the crafting would be insane active, which sadly is not a case..
    What players do with masterwork is gather materials, and latter sell off, when there are least available of them.

    But as active crafting and making AD from it? hah. Have you looked for crafted items prices?? And I mean the items which worth to sell. Most of them sells almost for it's base value. And if you don't have VIP, it's hardly the you will be able do marketing.
    I have non MW at max for all professions.. Can;t find anything worth to sell, most items in AH are so cheap that you buy almost for it's very base prices.. For MW all proffesions at lv 2, while alchemy at max. And still nothing worth to sell.


    AD sink means destroy AD from the game. How does crafting destroy AD from the game? If you mean selling stuff in AH, it is not the crafting is the AD sink. It is AH being the AD sink. If you mean the AD expense within certain crafting task, it is an immaterial amount of AD sink.

    Hence, "crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator." Pay attention to "if anything".



    Many I know get VIP using Zax. I get my VIP using Zax non-stop since VIP was introduced. If one plan to get VIP one month at a time, month by month, sure, that will be very tough since Zax takes about 6 months now. I don't buy VIP for next month. I buy VIP for next year. I only buy 6 month package when Zen store in its biggest discount of the year.

    VIP is not the cause of the backlog. VIP is something people wants to buy from Zen store. With the biggest discount on the 6 month package, it is less than 7200 Zen for a year. It is not a big amount for something lasting a year. It is a tiny amount comparing with the pack that may only last for a mod. It is a tiny amount comparing with those who buy wards from Zen store. It is a tiny amount comparing with those using Zax as a loop to generate AD.

    I am not new in this game.. I counted black friday discounts too. And in the end, do you think Non VIP"s have anything to do with ZAX?

    Non VIP's simply don't participate in zen stuffs at all. So telling that VIP is not reason of ZAX current issues.. It's like tell drunk driver who just crashed car that alcohol in his veins is not a cause of this accident. :) He never admit that. :)
    Your logic is weird.
    1. Non VIP can participate in Zax beyond using Zen for VIP.
    2. VIP player can participate in Zax beyond using Zen for VIP.
    3. The best you can make from it is VIP is a portion of Zax issue.

    VIP is not the drunk driver of the crash. VIP is the broken signal light of a car. Cryptic's "AD policy" is the drunk driver in this crash.

    I am not an impulse buyer. I calculate carefully before I buy anything. I don't jump for shinning things. I don't buy wards from Zen store or AH at all. I played for about 8 years. I have VIP since the first day of VIP. I can tell you that VIP expense is less than 30% of my Zen expense in all these years.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,441 Arc User
    edited March 27


    Also, crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator.

    Rly?
    have you recently used crafting? And if it would be as you say, the crafting would be insane active, which sadly is not a case..
    What players do with masterwork is gather materials, and latter sell off, when there are least available of them.

    But as active crafting and making AD from it? hah. Have you looked for crafted items prices?? And I mean the items which worth to sell. Most of them sells almost for it's base value. And if you don't have VIP, it's hardly the you will be able do marketing.
    I have non MW at max for all professions.. Can;t find anything worth to sell, most items in AH are so cheap that you buy almost for it's very base prices.. For MW all proffesions at lv 2, while alchemy at max. And still nothing worth to sell.
    AD sink means destroy AD from the game. How does crafting destroy AD from the game? If you mean selling stuff in AH, it is not the crafting is the AD sink. It is AH being the AD sink. If you mean the AD expense within certain crafting task, it is an immaterial amount of AD sink.

    Hence, "crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator." Pay attention to "if anything".



    Many I know get VIP using Zax. I get my VIP using Zax non-stop since VIP was introduced. If one plan to get VIP one month at a time, month by month, sure, that will be very tough since Zax takes about 6 months now. I don't buy VIP for next month. I buy VIP for next year. I only buy 6 month package when Zen store in its biggest discount of the year.

    VIP is not the cause of the backlog. VIP is something people wants to buy from Zen store. With the biggest discount on the 6 month package, it is less than 7200 Zen for a year. It is not a big amount for something lasting a year. It is a tiny amount comparing with the pack that may only last for a mod. It is a tiny amount comparing with those who buy wards from Zen store. It is a tiny amount comparing with those using Zax as a loop to generate AD.

    I am not new in this game.. I counted black friday discounts too. And in the end, do you think Non VIP"s have anything to do with ZAX?

    Non VIP's simply don't participate in zen stuffs at all. So telling that VIP is not reason of ZAX current issues.. It's like tell drunk driver who just crashed car that alcohol in his veins is not a cause of this accident. :) He never admit that. :)


    Your logic is weird.
    1. Non VIP can participate in Zax beyond using Zen for VIP.
    2. VIP player can participate in Zax beyond using Zen for VIP.
    3. The best you can make from it is VIP is a portion of Zax issue.

    VIP is not the drunk driver of the crash. VIP is the broken signal light of a car. Cryptic's "AD policy" is the drunk driver in this crash.

    I am not an impulse buyer. I calculate carefully before I buy anything. I don't jump for shinning things. I don't buy wards from Zen store or AH at all. I played for about 8 years. I have VIP since the first day of VIP. I can tell you that VIP expense is less than 30% of my Zen expense in all these years.



    i'm terrible with doing pointed quotes so i'm quoting the whole thing but crafting is a very good ad sink that has nothing to do with the AH. if you're crafting a lot you're buying morale. moral is 30k for something like 200 action points. each mastercraft action is about 40 points on average. I regularly spend half a million if I'm on a crafting spree. we make money from master crafting but it's not new ad. it's just spinning the ad already in circulation. they could do a lot more with it imo. but it's a valid ad sink.


  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,193 Arc User



    AD sink means destroy AD from the game. How does crafting destroy AD from the game? If you mean selling stuff in AH, it is not the crafting is the AD sink. It is AH being the AD sink. If you mean the AD expense within certain crafting task, it is an immaterial amount of AD sink.

    Hence, "crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator." Pay attention to "if anything".

    i'm terrible with doing pointed quotes so i'm quoting the whole thing but crafting is a very good ad sink that has nothing to do with the AH. if you're crafting a lot you're buying morale. moral is 30k for something like 200 action points. each mastercraft action is about 40 points on average. I regularly spend half a million if I'm on a crafting spree. we make money from master crafting but it's not new ad. it's just spinning the ad already in circulation. they could do a lot more with it imo. but it's a valid ad sink.
    Yes, you can choose to spend AD on moral but it is not a requirement to do the crafting. I did say "it is an immaterial amount of AD sink.". Of course, this is only my opinion.
  • blargskullblargskull Member Posts: 320 Arc User
    @thefiresidecat you have the best topics ever. :+1:

    image

    I still don't know the original source of this "Let's blow up the ZAX." but I am really enjoying reading this to no end. Seriously Cryptic should know, I have spent money on Zen for Champions using my bank card before. I will buy Zen here, if they remove the ZAX and become a billionaire in Neverwinter over night.

    Meanwhile, I am trying to get my head around how VIP is at fault. I am going back, starting at the beginning to review this thread again. My mind is blown away, the forum is more entertaining than the game is at present. :trollface:


  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,441 Arc User



    AD sink means destroy AD from the game. How does crafting destroy AD from the game? If you mean selling stuff in AH, it is not the crafting is the AD sink. It is AH being the AD sink. If you mean the AD expense within certain crafting task, it is an immaterial amount of AD sink.

    Hence, "crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator." Pay attention to "if anything".

    i'm terrible with doing pointed quotes so i'm quoting the whole thing but crafting is a very good ad sink that has nothing to do with the AH. if you're crafting a lot you're buying morale. moral is 30k for something like 200 action points. each mastercraft action is about 40 points on average. I regularly spend half a million if I'm on a crafting spree. we make money from master crafting but it's not new ad. it's just spinning the ad already in circulation. they could do a lot more with it imo. but it's a valid ad sink.
    Yes, you can choose to spend AD on moral but it is not a requirement to do the crafting. I did say "it is an immaterial amount of AD sink.". Of course, this is only my opinion.
    it's only immaterial because crafting isn't more worthwhile. if they made crafting more relevant all of a sudden it could be a serious thing. they could also add more sinks to it. I'd gladly pay 5 mil a pop to be able to choose my craftsmen individually for instance rather than deal with freeish rng


  • spelldazerspelldazer Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    I craft. I don't spend on mw crafting unless it can generate wealth for me. Gold crafting is a wealth generator. Crafting items to sell on the AH generates wealth (mat and gold costs turn into more AD for me than it costs to make the item). My personal in-game wealth has grown by around 20M strictly through MW selling and trading. I almost never spend AD on replenishing morale. Seems counter productive. I farm my own mats. I easily make 10-20k AD on the AH each week thru normal crafting. That AD comes from somewhere, sure, but as @plasticbat pointed out, the only sink is the AH transaction, unless you count failed crafting tasks. Smart crafters know how to minimize losses and come out ahead.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,235 Arc User



    AD sink means destroy AD from the game. How does crafting destroy AD from the game? If you mean selling stuff in AH, it is not the crafting is the AD sink. It is AH being the AD sink. If you mean the AD expense within certain crafting task, it is an immaterial amount of AD sink.

    Hence, "crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator." Pay attention to "if anything".

    i'm terrible with doing pointed quotes so i'm quoting the whole thing but crafting is a very good ad sink that has nothing to do with the AH. if you're crafting a lot you're buying morale. moral is 30k for something like 200 action points. each mastercraft action is about 40 points on average. I regularly spend half a million if I'm on a crafting spree. we make money from master crafting but it's not new ad. it's just spinning the ad already in circulation. they could do a lot more with it imo. but it's a valid ad sink.
    Yes, you can choose to spend AD on moral but it is not a requirement to do the crafting. I did say "it is an immaterial amount of AD sink.". Of course, this is only my opinion.
    it's only immaterial because crafting isn't more worthwhile. if they made crafting more relevant all of a sudden it could be a serious thing. they could also add more sinks to it. I'd gladly pay 5 mil a pop to be able to choose my craftsmen individually for instance rather than deal with freeish rng
    It all depends on how you play out the Workshop quest. My first character fell for the idea there was a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. So I only did this entire quest with 1 character. The rest stopped at Lady Begum, who is no lady when she tells you to "Sod off!". The new players should not bother to do her quest because there is nothing much gained from it, other than 12 more storage slots. Her whole thing is an AD sink, if you fall for the idea there is more than just story here.

    The rest of my characters stopped at 18 slots. At this point you should also have the sending stone. Using the finish item button from the menu puts the item into storage for a cost of 5 morale and not 10. You pay the delivery fee of 5 once, assuming you don't go anywhere, 18 items will be delivered to you again and again for the one time payment. No real need for more storage. I have a lot of gold at present, after the 50% discount this last week. Now the market has been saturated and I will keep it in the bank until gold prices are up again. If everyone was doing this, the market for gold would dry up and blow away.

    @spelldazer the AD comes mostly from the people farming AD in RQ dungeons, I would suspect. I also play the market and at present the lockbox companion Displacer Beast is going for 75K to 80K. I bought some for 70K and less a few weeks ago. When the lockbox is gone the prices go up. I have been told it is a lousy companion, but it looks cool. Today's Ford Edsel is next year's classic, the stats might change or remain the same. They might random drop from a dungeon chest in the future but I know they will go up in price. The week of 4-1 to 4-8 Ravenloft is 2x currency, I always get a lot of rough AD selling off the currency I make in there. All the campaign stores offer rAD for currency, this is yet another source they added when they eliminated salvaging.

    The AH is not an AD generator, it is the only player to player AD trade, and just makes player trading easier.
    wb-cenders.gif
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,085 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    @hadestemplar#9918 I would not play the game if your changes were implemented. Would you really be willing to pay $ for the things you propose? Remember, this would be an ongoing expense. The game is practically unplayable to me without vip12 perks. I'd sooner quit. And with ESO becoming F2P on Game Pass, xbox players certainly have options now.


    Also, crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator.


    I guess I need to repeat few lines from previous comment..

    First thing, do you think most players obtained VIP by getting zen from ZAX? If you think in such way, then I am sorry to dissapoint you. That's not how it is. Very very very few got it, some more lucky some less lucky.. Some waited 6 month to get 1k zen so they could buy VIP. Do you think all players waited all this time? No. They paid for ZEN with own real money.

    So why don't we quit this illusion.?
    What is that based on? Practically everyone (with perhaps an exception or two) I know have their ViP from ZAX.
    I'm not sure what it is based on, definitely not my experience. Maybe a 2 sec survey of almost brand new players who haven't found out about the exchange or haven't saved enough AD to post an exchange request.

    -Bind to account all zen store items. This removes the loop of making AD in the exchange and forces players to only use the exchange for what they will use themselves. The only mad group in this is those that are abusing the loop which looks to be most of the players in this forum giving advice.

    Abusing the loop? lol. If they did this, and also "Remove the Exchange" like you have suggested in your third dot point, how would a f2p player get Pres Wards to upgrade stuff?

    Yeah people are making a profit from the sales on the AH, if people have a problem with that, don't buy the stuff from the AH. And how does being patient, investing the AD earned and then making a profit equate to "abusing". What is next - stop people buying low and selling high on the AH?

    :astonished:

    Some waited 6 month to get 1k zen so they could buy VIP. Do you think all players waited all this time? No. They paid for ZEN with own real money.

    Who has waited 6months to get Zen?

    With the mass AD injection into the game from bondings it is likely that people will be waiting 6 months for recent listings. But at the moment, for people who have recieved Zen, the max wait time is 4 months. Are you just making this stuff up?


    Some really terrible ideas being posted in this thread.

    If people want to fix the Zax - they should buy some Zen and then convert it to AD, problem fixed.
  • thany#4351 thany Member Posts: 180 Arc User
    Zax is cryptic's problem. If they remove zax, this game will die. Without f2p players it'll be a desert. So zax will stay. My opinion ?!?!? They will try to maintain backlog at 6 months. Who can't wait, well they can buy.
  • spelldazerspelldazer Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    The zax backlog is not a problem so much as a symptom. It reflects the fact that a significan part of the player base does not buy Zen and then trade it for AD. The reasons for this are many and varied. The topic has been discussed ad nauseum. In my view, since CW joined, Cryptic has been deliberately exacerbating the situation by injecting vast amounts of AD into the economy and one has to wonder why. Clearly, there is a play here. It might be that Zen trading will get a cap or items will be bound. It could be that zen will be reworked so that it can only be used to buy non tradeable items. We'll just have to wait and see.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,441 Arc User



    AD sink means destroy AD from the game. How does crafting destroy AD from the game? If you mean selling stuff in AH, it is not the crafting is the AD sink. It is AH being the AD sink. If you mean the AD expense within certain crafting task, it is an immaterial amount of AD sink.

    Hence, "crafting is not an AD sink, in my opinion. If anything, it's a wealth generator." Pay attention to "if anything".

    i'm terrible with doing pointed quotes so i'm quoting the whole thing but crafting is a very good ad sink that has nothing to do with the AH. if you're crafting a lot you're buying morale. moral is 30k for something like 200 action points. each mastercraft action is about 40 points on average. I regularly spend half a million if I'm on a crafting spree. we make money from master crafting but it's not new ad. it's just spinning the ad already in circulation. they could do a lot more with it imo. but it's a valid ad sink.
    Yes, you can choose to spend AD on moral but it is not a requirement to do the crafting. I did say "it is an immaterial amount of AD sink.". Of course, this is only my opinion.
    most people who mastercraft pay a lot of money for morale. you just can't do any meaningful crafting without it.


  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,441 Arc User

    The zax backlog is not a problem so much as a symptom. It reflects the fact that a significan part of the player base does not buy Zen and then trade it for AD. The reasons for this are many and varied. The topic has been discussed ad nauseum. In my view, since CW joined, Cryptic has been deliberately exacerbating the situation by injecting vast amounts of AD into the economy and one has to wonder why. Clearly, there is a play here. It might be that Zen trading will get a cap or items will be bound. It could be that zen will be reworked so that it can only be used to buy non tradeable items. We'll just have to wait and see.

    unless they give A LOT of notice a zen rework that only allows non tradable items will severely HAMSTER off a lot of people


  • spelldazerspelldazer Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    @thefiresidecat it wouldn't be the first time they make a sweeping change that causes community-wide upset.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,235 Arc User
    The issue would have consequences to the other two Cryptic games. While Champions and Star Trek have a healthy currency exchange, they are under the same company. Two years ago, we witnessed them remove the Foundry (although separate entities) from both NW and STO. If the were to replace, remove, revamp, etc. the Neverwinter ZAX, why wouldn't they do the same for Star Trek and Champions. Obviously whatever they do, they will view it as a "positive upgrade" in the correct direction. I understand @thefiresidecat concerns to alert people, query the Cryptic staff, and post this thread. Many times they will say something in passing and then when you ask, Hey! What did you mean by that statement? You get silence and maybe months later, the bulldozers show up at your house to make the bypass.

    I still don't think anyone is doltish enough to nuke all their games with this kind of change. I am fairly certain that would be the result. But I also won't ignore anyone running around shouting the "Sky is falling!" either.
    wb-cenders.gif
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