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Official M19: Healing Adjustments

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  • midental#5256 midental Member Posts: 136 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    maybe ppl won't play healer because one single class can do everythings alone? There are simply no need of heals in Neverwinter atm. Damage is 1 or 0. Shield are the only things that really help survivability. how can i heal ppl if they pass from max healt to dead?

    On xbox queues are not so longer but i know on PC is another story. It is not simple to solve. Maybe the only easy way is or Shields for every heal class or no shields for all class?
  • dominious12dominious12 Member Posts: 92 Arc User
    I can't really comment on cleric changes because I don't play the class, but I do play paladin and warlock almost exclusively as healers so I will give my thoughts on the changes to both.

    Warlock first

    Lifemark/Lifepact; In principle I like this, having the ability to mark the tank and lock on to them with a focused heal whenever required is quite nice. I do have a couple of problems with it though - the marking itself is quite temperamental and will often drop off for no obvious reason, and if it does it can be difficult to accurately pick out the correct person to re-apply it.

    It is unfortunately a serious flaw of the game's targeting system that makes accurately firing off single-target powers both tedious and unreliable. For this reason I am not relishing the thought of having 2 healing/defensive at-wills as I already have to use multiple keybinds to make Soul Reconstruction reliably usable for a normal dungeon run.

    Oversoul; Increases your damage dealt by up to 10% the higher your soulweave.
    Souleater; Deal additional necrotic damage after most attacks. 20 magnitude, drains 10 soulweave.

    Both of these seem pointless for the soulweaver paragon. We already have a dps option with the hellbringer path, so shoehorning in damage features for the healing paragon just means we're potentially missing out on useful abilities that are relevant to the healing role. This is particularly annoying because there are few class features for the soulweaver that I would actually consider using, and likewise many of the feats are underwhelming.

    Vampiric Embrace
    For soulweaver only: now costs 200 soulweave, and has no cooldown.
    For soulweaver only: now heals nearby party members as well.

    Not listed here but on preview it shows as having 200 heal magnitude.
    This is redundant with revitalize, and doesn't benefit from either capstone feat, making it virtually useless, I would never consider using this over revitalize.

    Soulstorm: I'm not a huge fan of this in its current form, the effect itself is barely visible so I doubt players will know to stand in it for healing. I'd prefer this if it worked like healing word and automatically seeks out appropriate targets and puts a heal over time on them.

    Soul Barrier: this is ok, but I don't understand why it is necessary. It just replicates the functionality of Soul Pact with the added limitation of being confined to a small area, I don't see myself using this over soul pact - especially considering the barriers created will interfere with paladin shielding in trials.

    Warlock's Bargain; giving us a way to instantly recharge some soulweave is nice, but I don't like that it came at the cost of losing the ability to cleanse debuffs.

    Feypact/Hellpact; I'm about 82% sure I will always choose Feypact over Hellpact with their current states, just because the barriers created by hellpact are so feeble, and again they will interfere with paladin shielding, making it a problematic choice for trials.

    Overall I'm not sure what to make of the warlock changes so I will reserve judgment for now. I will say that I like the fact that the self-harm from warlock's bargain and essence drain have been removed. I never liked the fact that the warlock somehow had to be "edgy" and had self damage shoehorned into some of its abilities, honestly I'd like to see the self damage from soul pact go out the window too. Finally, and paradoxically, I am sad that lifebind has been removed though, it was an interesting and useful ability, and it let the warlock enhance the durability of the party in a unique way.


    Paladin Feedback
    I have a lot less to say about the paladin, just because it seems to be in a better position.

    Mark of Divinity: I won't repeat myself, so...this is fine. My only problem with it is that it uses an identical symbol to the cleric ability, even something as minor as changing the colour would be helpful, so I know which mark is mine.

    Cleansing Touch; like any single-target heal this is a pain to aim with any accuracy.

    Sanctuary: I've had a problem with this daily ever since it was added in mod 16. In its current form it isn't really fit for purpose - as being completely immobilized while channeling it leaves you very vulnerable. The limited control immunity while channeling is unfortunately useless as it doesn't apply to any control effect you would encounter in a situation where this power would be useful, in addition the size of the bubble is very small. I'd like to see this work more like the warlock's Soul Barrier in that we just place a seal on the floor and the effect is attached to that. That would at least give an incentive to use this over shield of faith in some situations.


    General feelings on the changes
    I understand why you think these changes are necessary, but honestly I'm not sure I will stick around as a healer if my sole purpose in battle is now to stand around idle, throwing out a heal occasionally because I have to tightly ration my divinity.


    That is all I can think of right now, I've probably forgotten a load of stuff I meant to cover so I will likely re-visit this thread after I've had a chance to toy around with builds on preview some more.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    I think this is an appropriate time to point out that the cooldowns on our non-resource powers are disproprtionately long for maintaining an engaging combat. I have to manage/ration my resource which means I have to wait to cast it until it is necessary. That's not a bad thing. It's not. That makes a skill requirement of knowing when to cast and when not to. However, this brings us to the position we find ourselves in currently where playing healing isn't engaging because we have long periods of downtime. The fact that our non-resource powers are insanely long cooldown means they're not really useful for filling that time. Our attacks are useless. They do nothing for us and the damage is non-existant. So another possibility in addition to other things which have been suggested is to lower the cooldowns of the non-resource powers so they could more effectively be utilized to create that activity that we need to feel satisfyingly engaged.

    Edit: I'm not asking for them to be spammable and never hit the triggers again, just so we're clear. But 25-30 second gaps in doing anything meaningful or interactive are leading to the boredom and frustration you're seeing. Encounter cooldowns, especially for healers who have to be managing their resource for their other powers and can't just "hit when up" but generally across the board also wouldn't be a bad thing, should be balanced around 10-15 second cooldowns *as a maximum* so that we can continually be doing *something*. I can't just throw heals just for fun to use a power because I haven't done *anything* in like a minute except read facebook. Even on live right now I wouldn't do that. I *could* run myself out of divinity being stupid. Being able to use a non-ressource power more than once or twice in that time frame would actually be really nice.
    Post edited by kythelion#3210 on
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  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User

    Lore-wise, why on earth do you still keep thinking that warlocks are healers? Did wotc approve that sht?

    Celestial Warlocks https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/warlock#TheCelestial
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited May 2020

    Lore-wise, why on earth do you still keep thinking that warlocks are healers? Did wotc approve that sht?

    Warlock is a (newish depending when the last time you played seriously) spontaneous caster along the same lines as a bard really. Just like a bard, it has access to healing and buffing capabilities. I don't know for sure since I haven't actively played in a few years, but I think there's also a subclass that specializes in healing. So yea, it IS approved by WotC, and it CAN be utilized as a heal/buffer role in PnP parties. So there's no lore reason it couldn't be adapted to fit a healing role here.

    And, as with all such comments, NWO is *based on* DnD. It is not a virtual replication of it. So any arguments of "It's not like that in real DnD" are really pointless. If you want to play real DnD, go do it. (You should. Everyone should. It's really fun!) This isn't real DnD. It never will be. Things *will* be different.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    vanda001 said:

    You guys just detroyed my Warlock build that has cost me couple of Millions of AD and I guess nothing is going to be done about it. I don't feel interested in playing this game anymore, thx.

    From what it looks like right now, the cost part of your build isn't going to change a lot tbh. The playstyle however was destroyed. Agree there.
  • vanda001vanda001 Member Posts: 9 Arc User

    vanda001 said:

    You guys just detroyed my Warlock build that has cost me couple of Millions of AD and I guess nothing is going to be done about it. I don't feel interested in playing this game anymore, thx.

    From what it looks like right now, the cost part of your build isn't going to change a lot tbh. The playstyle however was destroyed. Agree there.
    Nope, totally waste of AD. I, while a healer, was a supporter to the party. Lots of effects using harrowstorm and that was my main skill and having benefits from soul defiler as trying to do good damage while healing.
    Support on incapacitating enemies with paralysis and knock downs. Many effects comming from companion powers from the hits done by harrowstorm.

    This completely destroyed my warlock build. Good or bad it was my playstile and it was proven to be good so far. Many tought it was original and very helpful.

    I've spent like 3M AD (many from Zen to AD conversion) to have this build on point and now is not helpful anymore. Can use another class, for sure, but just wasted 350K+ AD in campaign patrnage coins.

    So, yes. Playstile + Cost part are destroyed. No benefits at all for me
  • ancientryancientry Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    there wouldve been so many possible more useful things healers could do if devs actually played this game lol like a long cooldown instant/faster revive feature, maybe a ranged revival of sorts, some sort of revival sickness removal thats limited by resource or something,

    more useful since it seems like things just oneshot people now leaving nothing to heal but i guess were getting another pala healers r op and the other healers manage ur resource better to be a wee bit competent mod

    anyways

    warlock healers have to learn how to play again, better yet just play pala and not waste time loll
  • vanda001vanda001 Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    ancientry said:

    there wouldve been so many possible more useful things healers could do if devs actually played this game lol like a long cooldown instant/faster revive feature, maybe a ranged revival of sorts, some sort of revival sickness removal thats limited by resource or something,

    more useful since it seems like things just oneshot people now leaving nothing to heal but i guess were getting another pala healers r op and the other healers manage ur resource better to be a wee bit competent mod

    anyways

    warlock healers have to learn how to play again, better yet just play pala and not waste time loll

    Agree. This is really dumb. Warlock had a different playstile, felt different from other healers. Now they are trying to sim pallys. Why not just deprecate the paragon and create another one instead of destroying it?

    This is the 3rd time my entire build is destroyed, 5 years ago they did this with my tank, later again with another tank, and now with a healer.
  • volournvolourn Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    Sad thing with this healing is, I was building my tank to finally do IF and TOMM. I was gonna focus on hit points and incoming healing but now 'incoming healing' seems worthless since it is getting. The boon for it is gonna be nerved. 1% was low enough but now they are cutting it to be .5%. Why? This healing rebalance seems like wasted time and effort. Healing was mostly working fine. Why punish people who work to improve their characters? Also, rank 15 enchnatments should all be useful but this giant nerf means the incoming heal enchants will not be worthy even at rank 15 so people (not me) who used their AD/zen/real $ to get them there will have had it all thrown in the trash since nobody is gonna spend millions of AD to purchase nerfed enchantments.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    volourn said:

    Sad thing with this healing is, I was building my tank to finally do IF and TOMM. I was gonna focus on hit points and incoming healing but now 'incoming healing' seems worthless since it is getting. The boon for it is gonna be nerved. 1% was low enough but now they are cutting it to be .5%. Why? This healing rebalance seems like wasted time and effort. Healing was mostly working fine. Why punish people who work to improve their characters? Also, rank 15 enchnatments should all be useful but this giant nerf means the incoming heal enchants will not be worthy even at rank 15 so people (not me) who used their AD/zen/real $ to get them there will have had it all thrown in the trash since nobody is gonna spend millions of AD to purchase nerfed enchantments.

    Incoming Healing, from Utility enchantments at least, is still the most useful to stack in those slots. Even a mere 5% total Incoming healing means you are effectively giving a 150k power healer 12.5k more power when they are healing you. (more if they have more power).
  • abrightdev#0791 abrightdev Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 12 Cryptic Developer

    POSSIBLE BUG: The marks from the healers are also visible to other players, instead of being visible just to the caster as the post says they should be.

    About DC:
    BUG: You lose all stacks of Cycle of Prayer when using Channel Divinity, even if you want to do something that does not consume divinity (like activating Gathering Light or Angel of Life). Cycle of Prayer stacks should only be dropped if Channel Divinity consumes divinity to cast the single target heal.

    Thanks for this post, we will look into it.
  • northwind1974northwind1974 Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    So is this the final death of the non-augment companion? Why not just remove them from the game and give everyone augments now? AOE heals that are divided up by the number of targets just ensured that both active companions as well as artifacts like Frozen book with the Ice Warriors will NOT be run in groups.
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  • volournvolourn Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    "Incoming Healing, from Utility enchantments at least, is still the most useful to stack in those slots. Even a mere 5% total Incoming healing means you are effectively giving a 150k power healer 12.5k more power when they are healing you. (more if they have more power). "

    The effort and cost to get an enchantment to rank should be rewarded. At 1% that is not worth it. Not compared to other rank 15 enchantments. At this point, it is better to go with the gold bonus or the companion boost since at least with the gold boost you can get decent AD for it.

    1% at Rank 15 seems gibberish and is indefensible. Rank 15, again, is top gear, and it being cut at the knees is not cool. And, no, 5% will not make much of a difference. 5 Rank 15 enchantments should give more than a total of 5%. One should be rewarded.

    As a tank, I'm already 'punished' because of the defense cap/higher it is the less rewards. Before, I knew how things worked, I raised my defense high (I'm at 130+) but was told that is useless number so it pushes us tanks into just gaining more hit points. Going to take me awhile to get the HP I need before I'm allowed to do IC/TOMM despite having 30ish keys. L0L Now, with the nerf of incoming healing... that's another avenue cut off for us.

    Ah well.. 'Tis is life.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User
    volourn said:

    "Incoming Healing, from Utility enchantments at least, is still the most useful to stack in those slots. Even a mere 5% total Incoming healing means you are effectively giving a 150k power healer 12.5k more power when they are healing you. (more if they have more power). "

    The effort and cost to get an enchantment to rank should be rewarded. At 1% that is not worth it. Not compared to other rank 15 enchantments. At this point, it is better to go with the gold bonus or the companion boost since at least with the gold boost you can get decent AD for it.

    1% at Rank 15 seems gibberish and is indefensible. Rank 15, again, is top gear, and it being cut at the knees is not cool. And, no, 5% will not make much of a difference. 5 Rank 15 enchantments should give more than a total of 5%. One should be rewarded.

    As a tank, I'm already 'punished' because of the defense cap/higher it is the less rewards. Before, I knew how things worked, I raised my defense high (I'm at 130+) but was told that is useless number so it pushes us tanks into just gaining more hit points. Going to take me awhile to get the HP I need before I'm allowed to do IC/TOMM despite having 30ish keys. L0L Now, with the nerf of incoming healing... that's another avenue cut off for us.

    Ah well.. 'Tis is life.

    1% is for R10, not R15. R15 has 2% per slot for a total of 10%. 10% more healing from single target healing ability for your Healer is a big deal still, especially as a tank. What other utility enchantment gives that much of an impact in combat? Certainly not darks where you are talking about values <1% total, even with rank 15s. If anything players should be asking for more options than tacticals for combat utility.
  • volournvolourn Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    I agree with that last part for sure. 10% is better but still... I think .5% per rank was reasonable. Maybe .33% therefore at rank 15 it be 5%. If someone wants to use 5 enchantment 15s to get a high incoming heal that should be useful. But, I get it. They want less difference between 'top of line' characters' and 'lower end' chaarcters. *shrug*
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User

    vanda001 said:

    vanda001 said:

    You guys just detroyed my Warlock build that has cost me couple of Millions of AD and I guess nothing is going to be done about it. I don't feel interested in playing this game anymore, thx.

    From what it looks like right now, the cost part of your build isn't going to change a lot tbh. The playstyle however was destroyed. Agree there.
    Nope, totally waste of AD. I, while a healer, was a supporter to the party. Lots of effects using harrowstorm and that was my main skill and having benefits from soul defiler as trying to do good damage while healing.
    Support on incapacitating enemies with paralysis and knock downs. Many effects comming from companion powers from the hits done by harrowstorm.

    This completely destroyed my warlock build. Good or bad it was my playstile and it was proven to be good so far. Many tought it was original and very helpful.

    I've spent like 3M AD (many from Zen to AD conversion) to have this build on point and now is not helpful anymore. Can use another class, for sure, but just wasted 350K+ AD in campaign patrnage coins.

    So, yes. Playstile + Cost part are destroyed. No benefits at all for me
    I feel your pain. I've fully specced my warlock to be a completely mobile healer that assists with the DPS dealing damage whenever I can, and being able to quickly target and heal while staying with the majority of the group and also keep them alive. I've spent a lot of AD (almost 5mil at this point, if you include the costs of buying stones, enchants, and everything) and it has proved to be very good. I've even finished Infernal Citadel many times with my warlock healer and can do a LoMM run with zero problems, even if every DPS has -25% incoming healing due to those boots. This whole update will not only destroy my warlock, it will destroy my will to play this game.
    Concerns about modification of play style are totally valid, but from a healing perspective I think it's a little early to say that our Soulweavers will be destroyed. If anything, it's possible that they will come out ahead. Even if investments like Outgoing Healing pets remain drastically reduced in effectiveness vs. where they are now, they will likely be BiS.

    Also, it's sad to say, but there is no one doing "good" damage on Soulweaver as it is on live. I used quotes because good is subjective, but none of the healers are putting out meaningful damage except where healing requirements are low and no one else is pulling their weight. Healing Warlock supporting DPS has been basically dead since Temptation was removed from the game (not that Templocks were amazing DPS, but they could contribute some not-insignificant numbers without sacrificing heals).
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

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  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    The one RTQ that is left I do on daily basis need significant more time to pop up.
    That is all you need to know. The player base declines your changes. You can see in declining population.

    As I said after Legendary Mount Gate that if I were CEO I would sack you I repeat it now. I would sack you. Because you are doing a bad job.

    If you want make the game better, really better, stop bring in mechanics that left players behind feeling useless. If you really think it's good have OP Heal Shield mechanics, you make all classes with sustained heal - including hybrid arbiter/justicar - mad and feeling useless. Why not change into big damage reduction? It is so EASY...
    If you keep making the roles more and more odd - with only 1 left combination of skillset ....... what do you think will happen? If you have 10 possible combinations with hybrid ways to play - ppl will exactly do that. They will discover these ways and play more until they find their way to play. With only 1 way left, maybe they dont like that way and quit? And they can see with 1 skillset only very fast.....
    If you keep that way of changing the tank, that they are more and more in need of dps & heal - because alone they deal less and less damage compared to paingiver and they are not tank enough and 100% in need of heal. You are changing it into a meatshield slave. And this is gonna failing. It's only about can I keep the hit or not. LOL. I can tell you. This will fail. This will not work. You are removing the hero moments of really good tanks, that they can safe up a failing boss moment and clear it alone after all others dead. If it will be like healer dead, tank 100% dead. DPS dead, healer and tank get overwhelmed. That one role cannot do without the other.... you don't need to practice it. The game will be dead in 2 years.

    You are no real gamers. That's the problem.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    What would be a right balance that is fun? Everyone brings an added value. No one may do things that can make someone else useless. Let me give you some suggestions on how a real gamer would do it.
    1. I do not understand at all why the healers should only heal. When they have healed and everyone is at 100%, should they drink coffee? I would remove At-Will heal. Only heal with Encounter/Utility. At all times a player must have the feeling that he/she has something to offer. A good player who is faster in implementation must also have an advantage.
    This is what my heal would look like:
    SoulWeaver: Only Heal over Time healing: Singe HoT, Group HoT + new mechanic: Lifebind: intercept X% of incoming damage (always adds value in group/trial content) his atwills only aoe dmg and debuffs reduce damage dealt, reduce speed. Stacks 10 times. (Have always something to do)
    Cleric: Big AoE Heals. At will aoe dmg opposite like SoulWeaver: Increase damage dealt, increase speed. Stacks 10 times.
    Paladin: Half heal of Cleric. Change Shields to new mechanic. Let it be a group stacking Shield based on stamina. Intercepts X% of incoming damage. Give him Encounter with income damage reduced, only single target for like bless a tank. He could deal ATWill single target dmg with refreshing stamina per hit. To encourage that he/she has to be active.

    SouWeavers would stack with Lifebind. Clerics would have always to heal because everything is only X%. Even the shielders would stack and dont replace. But all in all Healers need significat raise in their DPS dealt by their AtWills. It's demotivating like it's now. Over 15 times lower than DPS don't motivate playing active style.

    The tanks need more group value and need things that allow work together. A barbarian could get a group buff like encouraging everyone raise 10% HP. War cry. A war cry to increase group damage dealt 10% to be flexible. Only 1 War cry can be active.

    A warrior/paladin could get same group stacking Shield based on stamina like OP Heal. Only lower value.
    But the tanks really need to get changed, that the ressources that regenerate is not for main tank only that get hit. The second tank in a trial is like useless. Auras?

    And so on..... add value please. For everyone. A Warden could increase group deflect severity. You can find something for everyone.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    Let me add an easy idea to adress the missing DPS loadout for Paladin.
    Change Blessed Wanderer for Justicar: From increase 5% damage when alone to -> decrease HP by 40%, increase dmg deal by 10% (=remove the tank) + remove all extra threat generation. Add Blessing of Tempus: Get 25% in Power rating for every HP lost. Because a Tank is encouraged stack in HP.
    That would result in: 800k HP tank, 140k Power - > 480k HP, 140k Power + (320k(lost)*0.25=80k) =220k Power.
    Change Class to DPS, not changeable in Random queue. Cool and easy and fair.
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  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited May 2020

    What would be a right balance that is fun? Everyone brings an added value. No one may do things that can make someone else useless. Let me give you some suggestions on how a real gamer would do it.
    1. I do not understand at all why the healers should only heal. When they have healed and everyone is at 100%, should they drink coffee? I would remove At-Will heal. Only heal with Encounter/Utility. At all times a player must have the feeling that he/she has something to offer. A good player who is faster in implementation must also have an advantage.
    This is what my heal would look like:
    SoulWeaver: Only Heal over Time healing: Singe HoT, Group HoT + new mechanic: Lifebind: intercept X% of incoming damage (always adds value in group/trial content) his atwills only aoe dmg and debuffs reduce damage dealt, reduce speed. Stacks 10 times. (Have always something to do)
    Cleric: Big AoE Heals. At will aoe dmg opposite like SoulWeaver: Increase damage dealt, increase speed. Stacks 10 times.
    Paladin: Half heal of Cleric. Change Shields to new mechanic. Let it be a group stacking Shield based on stamina. Intercepts X% of incoming damage. Give him Encounter with income damage reduced, only single target for like bless a tank. He could deal ATWill single target dmg with refreshing stamina per hit. To encourage that he/she has to be active.

    SouWeavers would stack with Lifebind. Clerics would have always to heal because everything is only X%. Even the shielders would stack and dont replace. But all in all Healers need significat raise in their DPS dealt by their AtWills. It's demotivating like it's now. Over 15 times lower than DPS don't motivate playing active style.

    The tanks need more group value and need things that allow work together. A barbarian could get a group buff like encouraging everyone raise 10% HP. War cry. A war cry to increase group damage dealt 10% to be flexible. Only 1 War cry can be active.

    A warrior/paladin could get same group stacking Shield based on stamina like OP Heal. Only lower value.
    But the tanks really need to get changed, that the ressources that regenerate is not for main tank only that get hit. The second tank in a trial is like useless. Auras?

    And so on..... add value please. For everyone. A Warden could increase group deflect severity. You can find something for everyone.

    The stacking % buffs would give us something like we used to, but unfortunately they said they don't want them in the game like mod 15 which had probably the worst campaign but the highest amount of ''support'' class diversity, even though a cleric and a paladin were almost always a must (some things never change to some classes) you could pick something else depending on what you liked, almost all classes could play has buffers, de-buffers or healers and they weren't just cheap copies of other classes and everyone had a different gameplay style....
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