> - no more cleanse available. This will make SW less desirable in all dungeons/trials where there are effects that need cleansing like the Manticore's poison. Either all healers have a cleanse or none has it. Like this there is too much disparity.
> - removing damage from Harrowstorm will make all campaign quests a total pain. Cumulating Harrowstorms was pretty much the only way to kill enemies during daily and weekly quests, especially since Killing Flames was moved to Hellbringer. (Quote)
> No. Harrowstorm does more than decent damage in live if you stack it and is pretty much what makes daily quests doable without changing to Hellbringer, for those who don't like being dps. Taking away damage from Harrowstorm is pretty much forcing Soulweavers to convert to Hellbringers for all the daily campaign farming, which takes a good deal of the time of a player.
I’m aware of how it can stack; it’s not good damage.
If you mean that killing mobs on the map is “good,” then sure, it will do something. But that’s a very low bar.
Just because it’s possible to do daily solo content as a healer doesn’t mean it’s a great idea when you have the option to use a path that’s 100% better suited to it. We have different paths and loadouts for good reason.
No. People should be able to use only one path for daily stuff if they don't like the other.
> - no more cleanse available. This will make SW less desirable in all dungeons/trials where there are effects that need cleansing like the Manticore's poison. Either all healers have a cleanse or none has it. Like this there is too much disparity.
> - removing damage from Harrowstorm will make all campaign quests a total pain. Cumulating Harrowstorms was pretty much the only way to kill enemies during daily and weekly quests, especially since Killing Flames was moved to Hellbringer. (Quote)
> No. Harrowstorm does more than decent damage in live if you stack it and is pretty much what makes daily quests doable without changing to Hellbringer, for those who don't like being dps. Taking away damage from Harrowstorm is pretty much forcing Soulweavers to convert to Hellbringers for all the daily campaign farming, which takes a good deal of the time of a player.
I’m aware of how it can stack; it’s not good damage.
If you mean that killing mobs on the map is “good,” then sure, it will do something. But that’s a very low bar.
Just because it’s possible to do daily solo content as a healer doesn’t mean it’s a great idea when you have the option to use a path that’s 100% better suited to it. We have different paths and loadouts for good reason.
Sorry dude, you seem very tied to your ideas. For what I can understand, you'd be very surprised of the damage I can do as a healer. A friend (fighter) and I, as healer, run daily watcher (3 runes) ME without any trouble and really fast, even tho I'm only 22.3K gear score. The thing is to work on that build and style to make it work that way I tottaly agree with @gabrieldourden and this is the part that hurts the most with these changes.
You may think the bar is low and damage is low or many things, but you would have to use it to understand how hard those changes hit.
I even didn't have the need to use the DPS, and while DPS I can do very good damage (I could say an average of 30 - 50% 1 place in damage, and the rest second place). As a healer, I couldn't do that much damage but something close and I enjoyed it a lot and worked better agains AoE than the DPS.
But tbh, those changes are going to be in place. So for me seems that is another couple of years out of the game as this is the second time my build is completely destroyed, so it will be the second time I leave.
On one hand, as I said, I sympathize when players complain that their preferred play style is being changed or effectively removed.
On the other, I'm not sure that healer DPS capability should be a major concern for game design at the moment, not unless some changes are made to accommodate and encourage it going forward.
If I seem tied to my ideas, you seem tied to the notion that I would agree with you if I could only understand what you're talking about. The fact is that I do understand and still disagree with you because, from what you are saying, you are basing your opinion on your character's performance in very easy content and with players who are less skilled than you and who may even be lacking essential DPS equipment that you seem to have acquired for your healing loadout (again, just based on what you've said so far).
Sometimes all of the character-building in the world isn't going to make your character well-suited for the role you want it to have. If your goal is to play Soulweaver in basic dungeons and MEs where healing requirements are minimal and other players may not be at your level, then you will consistently find that your build is successful, if slower at getting the job done than Hellbringer. A DPS-focused Soulweaver isn't welcome in places like ToMM, Zariel, or even TiC; the damage isn't good enough compared to what needs to be delivered, and the healing is more important to content completion anyway.
I feel like we're at risk of running off completely into the woods, so to tie it back together, my position is that Soulweaver changes are necessary to keep it competitive in its role, especially at end-game. I'm not sold on all of the changes so far, but I would accept even less DPS capacity in exchange for more meaningful supportive actions since DPS is not the focus on the path itself. Again, I actually enjoy healer DPS, but this game is currently not set up to encourage it despite the initial M19 changes to Tab resource management.
The point is not all players are playing at the top end of the game. You need to be able to perform in solo content (and many players do solo content mainly)
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
They do read the discussions and do post to either announce changes or to clarify for the post part. They are usually busy working on the upcoming mod, or trying to replicate results that we are seeing to see how to fix bugs and what not. Or working on stuff for the live server for whatever event is going on. They just don't have the time for a back and forth discussion.
You'll get used to feeling ignored. Though I will say, for the most part someone reads what we post. I'm not sure it's always the person who needs to read it, but someone does. As much as we'd all like to see them post here and interact with us, we all want them actually working on things more. TBH, that's one of the biggest complaints people lodge is that they don't DO enough. The more time they spend here typing, the less time they spend working on stuff. I know which one I prefer.
You'll get used to feeling ignored. Though I will say, for the most part someone reads what we post. I'm not sure it's always the person who needs to read it, but someone does. As much as we'd all like to see them post here and interact with us, we all want them actually working on things more. TBH, that's one of the biggest complaints people lodge is that they don't DO enough. The more time they spend here typing, the less time they spend working on stuff. I know which one I prefer.
I hear you. I don't envy them that part of the job; the people who are supposed to be working on the game get criticism from the player base when they appear not to be spending sufficient time on development, but the feedback is equally vicious when the players feel a lack of communication.
It's a tough battle for them to win. Julia could be all over these threads, acknowledging individual contributions and informing of escalation, but that just leads to disappointment when players don't see their pet priorities addressed in the end.
(Note: Naturally I don't agree with all of their design choices and priorities, but that doesn't mean that I can't have some empathy for the ...challenges we present as a community)
All they would have to do is say "Hey we read the posts up to this point. Thank you for the feedback and issues. We are looking into them. Please keep them coming!" Then people wouldn't feel like they are being ignored. It only takes a few seconds to type that up. Just my 2 cents.
All they would have to do is say "Hey we read the posts up to this point. Thank you for the feedback and issues. We are looking into them. Please keep them coming!" Then people wouldn't feel like they are being ignored. It only takes a few seconds to type that up. Just my 2 cents.
Yeah, but they already do that to a point by creating feedback threads for multiple issues. I don't think it's fair to expect a dev head nod every few pages for each thread of feedback.
When they do that, the other side of the room starts complaining that dev time is being wasted on vapid acknowledgments rather than actual work.
IDK where the devs heard about complaints about healing in mod 17/18, seriously nobody complained, plus these changes are gonna make ppl less interested in support roles and going towards dps roles. I'm personnally leaving my palladin healer behind after i enjoyed healing for couple modules with it. I've been forced to quit my HR after trapper build was scrapped, now my OP heal, what is next ???
HR fan but not the Mod16 one. Currently with 3 mains (Ranger/Barb/Pally)
3
arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
IDK where the devs heard about complaints about healing in mod 17/18, seriously nobody complained, plus these changes are gonna make ppl less interested in support roles and going towards dps roles. I'm personnally leaving my palladin healer behind after i enjoyed healing for couple modules with it. I've been forced to quit my HR after trapper build was scrapped, now my OP heal, what is next ???
It's not so much that people are complaining, it's that they can't properly set difficulty of content without all these massive hits that one shot members of the party due to how strong heals are. The fact that to heal one person, it's more efficient to use an AoE heal over a single target one was also a design flaw.
IDK where the devs heard about complaints about healing in mod 17/18, seriously nobody complained, plus these changes are gonna make ppl less interested in support roles and going towards dps roles. I'm personnally leaving my palladin healer behind after i enjoyed healing for couple modules with it. I've been forced to quit my HR after trapper build was scrapped, now my OP heal, what is next ???
Well, nobody was complaining too loudly at least. There are certainly worse things in the game that could have been chosen first imo, but it seems like healing was the priority choice because it isn't where they want it to be and until it is they can't balance content. The goal is to need all three roles in every group for all content. Because things aren't working properly on the character side of the trinity, the content isn't working properly on the enemy side. Health is still pretty much binary. Alive or dead. That doesn't provide much time for healing to happen. This situation is created because enemy damage is so high because mitigation and HP are so high (Paladin Shield looking at you as part of that problem). We're still stuck in the Pre-M16 place where mechanics are focused on killing us instead of providing health/status/placement challenges for us to navigate. Ideally, mitigation, HP, and damage received will all be lowered incrementally until there is a point where the damage taken is serious enough to need heals, but low enough there is time to provide those heals creating a dynamic combat experience. Right now, heals are huge. My bastion can hit over a mil. Any time anything happens I can fill the ENTIRE raid's HP to full in one power use. That is riduculously overpowered.
The binary situation also leads to a problem of boredom with the current setup. My heals are so huge, I don't need to use them. I literally sit here and read Facebook on my iPad on my lap until the choreographed "big attack" happens. Hit bastion. Go back to reading. Anything else, I honestly don't even need to see because they'll either survive, or they won't, and there's *nothing* I can do about it. That's not particularly fun. I don't even like Facebook. As a Pallyheal, you have it a little bit better since you can proactively apply overshield to block the damage, so you have a little more active role. You need to keep a shield on.
Which provides the third point and the one that people HAVE been complaining about. As a Pallyheal, I know you've been having fun. But the other 2/3rds of us playing heal haven't been having as much fun. As a Cleric or SW, we're not particularly welcome, and we're only invited to groups by friends or if people have been looking for an hour and can't find a Pallyheal. As a Cleric, I'm not welcome in ToMM unless I switch to a DPS spec, even within my guild and friends list, because having a cleric heal along actually makes it harder to complete. It can cause the run to fail because they're short a DPS, so I can't even ASK to go without feeling guilty. If I ask to go and the run fails, then it was *my fault*. In a very real sense because I was selfish enough to want to experience the content too, my presence prevents anyone from getting to experience it. My guild took me along to get my weapons, and I don't go anymore. Because the best help I can be to the rest of them running ToMM is to NOT go. And you know how much fun that is? It's not.
Do I like the look of these changes? Not really. They're not addressing the discrepancy between the three classes at all. Pallyheal is still going to be the only one who gets to go. The rest of us will go for a few weeks til the Pallyheals figure things out, then we'll be booted out the door again as unnecessary to fill our spot with another DPS to make things go faster. The targeting system is going to be terrible when it gets to us on console the same way targeting for everything is now and instead of it being too easy where people almost never die now people are going to die a lot. I'm probably not going to be having any more fun. But, I see why they need to make changes.
@kythelion#3210 Slightly off-topic, but you might want to play with different ToMM parties. We almost always include both a Cleric and Paladin healer in our guild farms, and never has the Cleric been shamed or unwanted. If DPS is a concern because of less experienced players being included, we go usually solo tank before dropping a healer.
Naturally this still highlights the issue of shielding being so useful that most groups won’t even think of leaving it on the table, and for good reason.
IDK where the devs heard about complaints about healing in mod 17/18, seriously nobody complained, plus these changes are gonna make ppl less interested in support roles and going towards dps roles. I'm personnally leaving my palladin healer behind after i enjoyed healing for couple modules with it. I've been forced to quit my HR after trapper build was scrapped, now my OP heal, what is next ???
It's not so much that people are complaining, it's that they can't properly set difficulty of content without all these massive hits that one shot members of the party due to how strong heals are. The fact that to heal one person, it's more efficient to use an AoE heal over a single target one was also a design flaw.
If these changes had done anything to solve that, Zariel's Challenge wouldn't have the high number of oneshot mechanics it currently has. The design of the trial kinda shows that, even with such absurdly big changes, health will still probably be binary like always.
Design of Tank changed to Survivors. DPS, Healer, Survivors. If it wasn't so sad, I'd laugh.
As many things you can do wrong... Cryptic does it wrong. Also Bel, content that decides when players have to play. Not players who decide when to play. Oh, my God. This is so oldschool, back in 2005 this concept was rejected in a much bigger production and a much bigger franchise went under. Are these tests supposed to be innovative? Why do all the mistakes in live testing have to be repeated here that have long since failed in MMORPG history.
At least get a real gamer on board. It can't go on like this.
I am not a healer (just play it here and there), and I cant give feedback in the top end scenario, but reading what people is saying here are one or two ideas.
Warlocks could give temp HP (yellow bar) instead of shield (blue bar) so they are allways compatible with paladins and have something more unique. So clerics could be the most healing effective, and others adding more survability with damage mitigation could give each class something different and compatible.
Balancing this could be hard but I think can be done, for example adding some kind of "true dmg" for bosses that bypass shields and temp hp (some attacks, not all ofc)
Also, giving more zone spells (for clerics or auras for warlocks (not like paladin auras, something more in line with warlocks lore) would be more creative and fun to play.
Last, I think it could be a good idea to give a way to restore divinity faster, something like AP gain, that could be in companions or artifacts (called divinity gain for example)
As long as there are shields in the game, true balancing will never happen. The only option to balance all the healers for real is to remove the temp HP entirely from paladins and warlocks.
I'm playing all three healers on live and they're all geared and run ToMM. Paladin is buffed even more now with Critical Touch affecting also Divine Shelter. Warlock's shielding is a joke since it affects only certain skills which don't have great healing magnitudes in the first place. And cleric seems to be the last guy in the gang, good mainly at healing over time.
Viperion - DragonTribe guild. Playing Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Fighter.
You're saying that divinity regeneration by praying or Soul spark regeneration from enemies wasn't fun. However the alternative of doing nothing that you present us with these changes looks worse, guys... It's just terrible to see your divinity go down and be able to do nothing about it but wait.
Except for waiting, the methods to regenerate divinity are way too different across the three healers. Paladins can use two encounters (Circle of Divinity and Sacred Weapon with the correct feat), Clerics can use only one (Divine Glow) and Warlocks can use only one (Warlock's Bargain) which also temporarily disabled their passive healing from their spark pet. The differences here too big and you can see clearly some classes have a better advantage over the others.
Clerics and Warlock have these similar feats called "Cycle of Prayer" and "Essence of Time" that are meant to help divinity/soulweave regeneration. However, in order to benefit from it, the healer must not use its resource to heal. So it must not heal. So it must do nothing. How can that be possible?! It's impossible guys to just stand still for 12s (feat's maximum effectiveness) and do nothing.
Since module 16, paladin's temporary HP from shields have put them as the best pick of healer. Because temp HP is on top of player's regular HP so there are better chances of survival in end game content. I am trully saddened to see this aspect has not changed. In my opinion, to make sure you're on the right track to truly balance the healers, the temp HP from paladin and warlock must be gone from the game. It is more effort because I believe you will need to readjust ToMM, IC and Zariel's Challenge but I believe players will be finally pleased to no longer see those absurd numbers way above their possible HP (especially for tanks). If they all were pure healers but with some minor buffs for defense and offense, I believe the game would be more fun!
The TAB mechanic seems to be clunky to use on all classes. On warlock it bugs often (see bug description below).
The TAB mechanic icon for cleric and paladin should look visually different. The same icon makes it hard to know which one is which.
The TAB mechanic icon for all healers is hidden behind the player's HP bar if the healer decides to play with always-on HP bars on players (and all healers kinda need to do this!)
REWORK SUGGESTION FOR TAB: The TAB mechanic requires a lot of targeting which is very hard to do in content of 10 players. This will be even harder when these changes get to console. I see some major drawbacks to this kind of mechanism on console. I would actually rework it to be a small AoE area on the ground which would work similar to Bastion of Health for instance, to divide its magnitude healing among the players in that area, to a max of 2 players. Furthermore, while channeling, I would also add a visual indicator on the ground (like a glowing light of some sorts for paladins/cleric), just a visual indicator for the tanks to go to that area and benefit from the heal. And instead of strong heal done by continuously channeling on TAB, I'd use the same approach already implemented on warlock - smaller heals for 1000 magnitude which can happen in a fast succession.
Soulweaver:
After marking a player, holding down the TAB mechanic causes the spark pet to randomly switch from healing the target to healing the warlock itself.
The "Soul Pact" daily healing magnitude is too low. Especially considering it's comparable to an at-will's magnitude. Yes, the at-will is single target, this daily is AoE but since it is a daily and cannot be spammed it should worth for more healing also. I would suggest 800-1000 magnitude rework.
The "Pillar of Power" encounter cooldown is too big. The effect lasts for 10s and the current cooldown should not be more than 20s. I would suggest 18s, similar to live.
The option to cleanse negative effective is now gone. It used to be on Warlock's Bargain but it's no longer available. Please add it back and please make sure you add it on an encounter without time cooldown like Warlock's Bargain.
The "Souleater" class feature seems to be pointless. The little magnitude won't help with anything. I suggest to rework it to focus on healing in some aspect, rather than dealing damage.
The "Essence of Time" feat requires the player to do nothing in order to benefit from the increased soulweave regeneration. At maximum efficiency it requires the warlock to do nothing (no heal at all) for 12 seconds! It's too much. Actually in my opinion the feat should be entirely reworked because, I'm sorry, it sounds like a terrible choice. Same applies for clerics and paladins who have similar feats.
The "Soultheft" feat has its cooldown too high. Please reduce it from 10s to 6s.
The "Oversoul" feat which increases damage by 10% is pointless. Soulweaver is such a weak damage dealer it doesn't need such buffs. Please rework it. My recommendation would be to aid AoE healing in large groups. oversoul). For instance: Whenever you're healing more than 5 targets, the magnitude increases by 30 for every target to a maximum of 5 times.
Post edited by vasile1991 on
Viperion - DragonTribe guild. Playing Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Fighter.
@kythelion#3210 Slightly off-topic, but you might want to play with different ToMM parties. We almost always include both a Cleric and Paladin healer in our guild farms, and never has the Cleric been shamed or unwanted. If DPS is a concern because of less experienced players being included, we go usually solo tank before dropping a healer.
Naturally this still highlights the issue of shielding being so useful that most groups won’t even think of leaving it on the table, and for good reason.
I can't speak to the way it is on PC because I don't play there except for Preview, but on console, it is overwhelmingly easiest to drop the healer. The trial goes smoothest (for us which I assume is probably different due to the way PC and console play differently) with 2 tanks, 1 Pallyheal, and 7 DPS. It is the easiest combination to get the complete with, especially in our guild runs which are entirely focused on pulling through new players for weapons. No one in my guild actually farms ToMM because they want to anymore. Most people who are experienced would be happy never to set foot in there again tbh. My guild would take me if I asked, but no one is going to ask me to go. Which I understand; I know (let's be honest we all know even if none of my friends would ever say it) I'm taking a spot that would be better served as a DPS to give them a higher clear chance to get our guildies the weapons, so I don't ask unless I'm in the mood to DPS. Which is rare. Or if they're training a new Pallyheal and need me to keep everyone standing while Pallyheal learns the mechanics. Which isn't too common anymore either now that most people who want to Pallyheal already are. It's not their fault that the best way for me to help is to not go, so I'm not upset at my friends when I see them in ToMM without me. Do I feel bitter about it? I absolutely do, but I don't blame my friends or guildmates. It's just bad design. Outside my guild, I couldn't get in one even if I wanted. The ToMM farmers run solo-Pallyheal only. They're interested in efficiency, and carrying dead weight isn't efficient. It sucks, but it's not really their fault either. Clerics/SW heals are refused entry, and people are pretty rude about it (that is their fault, HAMSTER people). I guess it's just a difference in PC and PS.
@kythelion#3210 Slightly off-topic, but you might want to play with different ToMM parties. We almost always include both a Cleric and Paladin healer in our guild farms, and never has the Cleric been shamed or unwanted. If DPS is a concern because of less experienced players being included, we go usually solo tank before dropping a healer.
Naturally this still highlights the issue of shielding being so useful that most groups won’t even think of leaving it on the table, and for good reason.
I can't speak to the way it is on PC because I don't play there except for Preview, but on console, it is overwwhelmingly easiest to drop the healer. The trial goes smoothest (for us which I assume is probably different due to the way PC and console play differently) with 2 tanks, 1 Pallyheal, and 7 DPS. It is the easiest combination to get the complete with, especially in our guild runs which are entirely focused on pulling through new players for weapons. No one in my guild actually farms ToMM because they want to anymore. Most people who are experienced would be happy never to set foot in there again tbh. And, my guild would take me if I asked. But I know (let's be honest we all know even if none of my friends would ever say it) I'm taking a spot that would be better served as a DPS to give them a higher clear chance to get our guildies the weapons, so I don't ask unless I'm in the mood to DPS. Which is rare. Outside my guild, I couldn't get in one even if I wanted. The ToMM farmers run solo-Pallyheal only. Clerics are refused entry, and people are pretty rude about it. I guess it's just a difference in PC and PS.
Yeah, it could be a platform difference. I don't do public ToMMs unless requested by friends, so my experience may be different for that reason as well. PUGs are such a crapshoot, and I want my time to be spent helping people in guild or alliance if I'm going to do what amounts to a training run; otherwise I run with other experienced people I know (preferably from guild/alliance) if the expectation is to farm. We continue to farm because it's some of the fastest and easiest AD, and it's a great way to keep gearing up alt characters with random ToMM rings and weapon drops.
I was just surprised to read about your experience as Cleric healer since our farms are just as successful using one, but I can see how some groups might prefer to kick the Cleric and keep only the Paladin rather than solo tank. Paladin is a bit too powerful for end-game content currently, and I think very few would dispute that.
I think the fact that we don't really have a way to regenerate divinity contradicts with the statement that the goal is to "facilitate more engaging moment-to-moment gameplay". Quote: "This change will allow healers more time to attack with at-wills and allow for more mobility in combat". As a Devout Cleric I do not care about using damaging At-Wills in combat, as the damage really is insignificant even compared to the damage the Tank is dealing. It looks like the Cleric will have to be very stingy regarding their divinity. A small mishap by the DPS or the Tank will be hard or impossible to compensate, which in turn doesn't really contribute towards the goal to make the healing role more dynamic. And when the divinity is empty, the Cleric can't do anything now, whereas before, channeling divinity at least gave the impression of "having something to do".
I like the changes to encounters like Bastion of Health though, I think that this goes into the right direction making healing more dynamic (healing only one person with a big heal vs. multiple with a small heal, the area is still large and hard to miss)
Well, nobody was complaining too loudly at least. There are certainly worse things in the game that could have been chosen first imo, but it seems like healing was the priority choice because it isn't where they want it to be and until it is they can't balance content. The goal is to need all three roles in every group for all content. Because things aren't working properly on the character side of the trinity, the content isn't working properly on the enemy side. Health is still pretty much binary. Alive or dead. That doesn't provide much time for healing to happen. This situation is created because enemy damage is so high because mitigation and HP are so high (Paladin Shield looking at you as part of that problem). We're still stuck in the Pre-M16 place where mechanics are focused on killing us instead of providing health/status/placement challenges for us to navigate. Ideally, mitigation, HP, and damage received will all be lowered incrementally until there is a point where the damage taken is serious enough to need heals, but low enough there is time to provide those heals creating a dynamic combat experience. Right now, heals are huge. My bastion can hit over a mil. Any time anything happens I can fill the ENTIRE raid's HP to full in one power use. That is riduculously overpowered.
The binary situation also leads to a problem of boredom with the current setup. My heals are so huge, I don't need to use them. I literally sit here and read Facebook on my iPad on my lap until the choreographed "big attack" happens. Hit bastion. Go back to reading. Anything else, I honestly don't even need to see because they'll either survive, or they won't, and there's *nothing* I can do about it. That's not particularly fun. I don't even like Facebook. As a Pallyheal, you have it a little bit better since you can proactively apply overshield to block the damage, so you have a little more active role. You need to keep a shield on.
Which provides the third point and the one that people HAVE been complaining about. As a Pallyheal, I know you've been having fun. But the other 2/3rds of us playing heal haven't been having as much fun. As a Cleric or SW, we're not particularly welcome, and we're only invited to groups by friends or if people have been looking for an hour and can't find a Pallyheal. As a Cleric, I'm not welcome in ToMM unless I switch to a DPS spec, even within my guild and friends list, because having a cleric heal along actually makes it harder to complete. It can cause the run to fail because they're short a DPS, so I can't even ASK to go without feeling guilty. If I ask to go and the run fails, then it was *my fault*. In a very real sense because I was selfish enough to want to experience the content too, my presence prevents anyone from getting to experience it. My guild took me along to get my weapons, and I don't go anymore. Because the best help I can be to the rest of them running ToMM is to NOT go. And you know how much fun that is? It's not.
Do I like the look of these changes? Not really. They're not addressing the discrepancy between the three classes at all. Pallyheal is still going to be the only one who gets to go. The rest of us will go for a few weeks til the Pallyheals figure things out, then we'll be booted out the door again as unnecessary to fill our spot with another DPS to make things go faster. The targeting system is going to be terrible when it gets to us on console the same way targeting for everything is now and instead of it being too easy where people almost never die now people are going to die a lot. I'm probably not going to be having any more fun. But, I see why they need to make changes.
i had to quote this again to drive home to the devs
this encompasses everything - read this, re read this, and read it again
we want changes but the changes you've made are completely out of touch the above is all the feedback you need
drop the blue bars for the love of god, or make them max at 10-15% of a players health
have you noticed not one pally has come on here in 6 pages of feedback to tell every other healer class to stop crying??
its that obvious and that bad even they know it i wish there was a way to do it without killing their bars but at this point i'm over nerfs i dont even care anymore nerf us into the ground just get all 3 healers needed for a group
The AoE healing got effectivness decrease with more players are in AoE heal area. I understand that main reason behind this change where that, with current rappit AoE healing usage players may skip part of game mechanics. As example LoMM second boss > Bore worm, and so called heal Check point. This heal check point was never intended, and I assume it was intended that players would dodge incoming falling rocks, while tank block hits from Boss( bore worm).
So I want to ask you just spend few moments to think about this solution.
Remove AoE healing efffectivness readuction factor, and keep so it's healing would be same as current live. Add: This powers cooldown increases by 3 seconds with each use. Cooldown resets to normal after 15 seconds. Note: this is warlocks: Arm of Hadar encounter mechanic. By using this mechanic, healers would not be able use rapid healing anymore, but Aoe healing effectivness still remain same.. And it's still would be viable in some cases..
Other possible solution is increase Divinity/Soulweave consumption with each AoE healing powers usage, and after Xs not using it, consumption would reset back to default.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
If the warlock sheild overwrites the paladin one and you know this, maybe you should have a second load out for running with paladins, and maybe a seperate one for running without paladins?
What we are looking for here is an option where any of the 3 Healers can choose between being responsible for the shield in a trial or responsible for the HoT, this makes it possible for PL also to play without generating a shield but more focused on gross healing. Regarding a general Shield mechanic for the classes, it would be very interesting if all shields protect only 50% of the damage and or another 50% were removed from the red life, this would give an additional purpose to have healers without a focus on shield.
it is as I mentioned in this part of my post, the ideal is that all 3 healers have options of choices to build their healer in different ways, that way any one of them could be responsible for the Shield as well as for the massive cure, even paladin, forming a synergy between them, mainly in a reality where the shield did not block 100% of the damage.
i thought a lot about the classes and i don't like the idea of giving temp HP or shield to other classes (at least i don't want it on my cleric it doeasn't sound like a 'cleric power'), that is a paladin thing, if we all have the same powers, with different names, and different animation sure we could reach balance (we are all the same thing, with the same power, the same effects, more balance than this.., it's an exageration, i know, but fit the example) but we loose the entire meaning behind chosing a class. would you give sword power to a mage? stealth skill to a dreadnought? curse to a cleric? the same thing. (this is not the place, but the same thing can be said about tank, the tank role have to beheave all the same, there isn't much difference in playstile between them all have to take aggro and survive, and have to do it in the same way).
As the game is based on D&D everything can be accepted, a hellish champion, a cleric fighter, stealth skill to a dreadnought, everything can be done considering multiclass, which is not necessarily the case here. But in my point of view the 3 classes may have (options) to do the same thing if they choose to do so, and still be unique in their mechanics, something like the tips you used for example, or the ones I also mentioned previously on a post I made. On the other hand, asism, as I also mentioned, I think that a reality where there is no longer any type of shield in the game could be very good, and easier for the Devs, but it would have to be removed completely, because even if they nerf the shield of the PL for only 5% of the maximum life of the allies, it will still be the preferred one for the contents.
Will there be any changes to Bastion of Health or channel divinity on the Arbiter side? It seems a bit odd that channel divinity was altered for Devout but nothing was changed for Arbiter. Would be nice to see some of the changes for Bastion apply to the Arbiter side as well, so they can be a spot healer if need be.
Currently there are no plans to change channel divinity for arbiter which already has its own unique interaction with channel divinity. Generally, the arbiter is not channeling divinity except to convert their judgement gauge into divinity. In regards to bastion of health—since the arbiter's version of bastion of health is currently not divided among the number of targets healed, it is still a fairly decent spot heal. In fact, due to the high rate with which the arbiter can recover divinity, we saw the arbiter doing a lot of very strong healing in our closed testing for this module to the point that we may have to make some adjustments. Please give it a try, I think you'll find the arbiter still a capable spot healer if you choose to be.
Pally divine touch is now split with the party as the new standard however it is also counting non augment companions as a person and any npc that has health within the circle.
Also the battle focus feat not working properly.
If you die and get rez there is a strong chance that you won't regenerate divinity and your heals will take the divinity but the heal comes up with a 0 instead of any type of heal. This last for about one minute and I don't know if last longer since we all die since we don't get healed
Thank you for the report! We'll look into these issues.
-You claim the removal of channeling divinity allows healers more time to attack with at-wills in combat, but why would we want that? this damage is irrelevant in higher level content, and no longer procs effects such as prayer of opportunity or critical touch if it is a damaging at-will on paladin for example, I would much rather be able to channel divinity during this time. Even the new feat for paladins 'battle focus' does not support this change, it provides minimal divinity regen and only requires hitting the boss once every 6 seconds, this could have been easily achieved without the removal of the old channel divinity. -I suggest re-working this feat to provide more divinty regeneration with a somewhat less achieveable requirement than simply hitting an enemy, perhaps sustained damage for a few seconds for example.
-Similarly, channeling divinty's restriction to movement added another layer of skill to gameplay, allowing better players to know when they have time to restore some divinty, and when they must focus on repositioning, just as one example.
We did also receive quite a lot of feedback after the launch of Module 16 that many healers found the gameplay of channel divinity boring. We do understand that to some degree this change does lower the skill ceiling for healers. Those who would optimize their channel divinity uptime and squeeze every last ounce out of generating extra divinity during combat could dramatically increase their effectiveness.
However, the situation you describe of having to be more careful when selecting your healing spells, as well as when to cast them is an intentional shift. We're shifting the mechanical difficulty of healer from optimizing your channel divinity uptime to more careful use of healing spells. On live, there isn't necessarily a lot of thought that goes into when to cast a healing spell, or who to cast it on.
In the current live meta, we observed that healers who could optimize their channel divinity uptime could keep groups up through failed mechanics almost indefinitely. We are looking to put healing in a place where it can keep a good performing group alive of course, as well as help a group recover from some mistakes—but when a group is making repeated mistakes—we are aiming to make failure happen more quickly in that instance.
Of course, we do want healing classes to be enjoyable to play, so we will absolutely take your feedback now, and in the coming months. Nothing on preview is written in stone, changes and fixes will continue to happen, both before launch and in future modules and updates.
-The new prayer of opportunity feat on paladin is poorly designed, it only procs upon encounter use, I have just used one of my very div-taxing encounters to heal, why would I then want a free heal within the next 12 seconds that doesn't even factor in cast time? On top of a low 20% chance, when you take into consideration how often we can use encounters now compared to before. -I suggest if you are looking for an easier change rather than changing the feat altogether, allowing it to proc from at-wills similarly to how crit-touch does, and lower the chance, or make it last for longer, say 30s.
In our internal playtests, there were plenty of opportunities to use prayer of opportunity. There are often cases after healing the group where being able to apply an exceptionally powerful heal or an exceptionally powerful shield (if their health is full) for free is very useful. Please take some time to try it out in a group setting!
So, after reworking my cleric completely after Mod 16, spending a fortune for companions and having the correct mods on my gear, now all of that is pretty much useless. Do you ever consider the cost of time/money/energy people have put into the characters before you make these sweeping changes?
Absolutely, the amount of disruption that changes can cause are always a major factor in our deliberations about whether to make changes. Often times, when we are slow to make changes, those are the primary reasons. As was the case here, where these large healing effects were left in place since the launch of Module 16. And when we do have to make changes, we greatly appreciate your patience. I'd also like to personally apologize for any disruption that these changes may have caused you.
In the case of utility enchantments and companions which grant increases to healing however—please note that though the values on these powers have been decreased dramatically, it is only because these effects were dramatically out of line with other options for those slots, given their item level. For instance, outgoing healing bonuses offered by companions were often five times stronger than taking the equivalent amount of power for healing.
We have engineered these adjustments so that in most cases, it is still best in slot to take these sources of outgoing healing for a healer, but it is not orders of magnitude stronger than taking power. We believe that in most cases, your current setup will not have to change, even if the overall power of these effects is reduced.
MMy divinity bar is nothing more than a recharge timer on the screen. If that's all divinity is going to be now, a recharge timer, then just admit it and put the powers on cooldowns so the thing can get off my screeen.
Except that a resource pool like divinity has fundamental differences with a recharge timer. You can dip into a resource pool when necessary. For instance, if your group messes up and takes a bunch more damage than usual, you can heal them, but it will tax your resources. At that point, you'll need to be careful to let your resources recover.
If all of your spells were merely on cooldowns as they were before Module 16—you simply have a baseline of incoming damage you can heal through easily. If it suddenly increases over that threshold, you'll be unable to succeed.
Comments
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
It's a tough battle for them to win. Julia could be all over these threads, acknowledging individual contributions and informing of escalation, but that just leads to disappointment when players don't see their pet priorities addressed in the end.
(Note: Naturally I don't agree with all of their design choices and priorities, but that doesn't mean that I can't have some empathy for the ...challenges we present as a community)
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
When they do that, the other side of the room starts complaining that dev time is being wasted on vapid acknowledgments rather than actual work.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Currently with 3 mains (Ranger/Barb/Pally)
The binary situation also leads to a problem of boredom with the current setup. My heals are so huge, I don't need to use them. I literally sit here and read Facebook on my iPad on my lap until the choreographed "big attack" happens. Hit bastion. Go back to reading. Anything else, I honestly don't even need to see because they'll either survive, or they won't, and there's *nothing* I can do about it. That's not particularly fun. I don't even like Facebook. As a Pallyheal, you have it a little bit better since you can proactively apply overshield to block the damage, so you have a little more active role. You need to keep a shield on.
Which provides the third point and the one that people HAVE been complaining about. As a Pallyheal, I know you've been having fun. But the other 2/3rds of us playing heal haven't been having as much fun. As a Cleric or SW, we're not particularly welcome, and we're only invited to groups by friends or if people have been looking for an hour and can't find a Pallyheal. As a Cleric, I'm not welcome in ToMM unless I switch to a DPS spec, even within my guild and friends list, because having a cleric heal along actually makes it harder to complete. It can cause the run to fail because they're short a DPS, so I can't even ASK to go without feeling guilty. If I ask to go and the run fails, then it was *my fault*. In a very real sense because I was selfish enough to want to experience the content too, my presence prevents anyone from getting to experience it. My guild took me along to get my weapons, and I don't go anymore. Because the best help I can be to the rest of them running ToMM is to NOT go. And you know how much fun that is? It's not.
Do I like the look of these changes? Not really. They're not addressing the discrepancy between the three classes at all. Pallyheal is still going to be the only one who gets to go. The rest of us will go for a few weeks til the Pallyheals figure things out, then we'll be booted out the door again as unnecessary to fill our spot with another DPS to make things go faster. The targeting system is going to be terrible when it gets to us on console the same way targeting for everything is now and instead of it being too easy where people almost never die now people are going to die a lot. I'm probably not going to be having any more fun. But, I see why they need to make changes.
Naturally this still highlights the issue of shielding being so useful that most groups won’t even think of leaving it on the table, and for good reason.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
DPS, Healer, Survivors. If it wasn't so sad, I'd laugh.
As many things you can do wrong... Cryptic does it wrong. Also Bel, content that decides when players have to play. Not players who decide when to play.
Oh, my God. This is so oldschool, back in 2005 this concept was rejected in a much bigger production and a much bigger franchise went under.
Are these tests supposed to be innovative?
Why do all the mistakes in live testing have to be repeated here that have long since failed in MMORPG history.
At least get a real gamer on board. It can't go on like this.
I'm playing all three healers on live and they're all geared and run ToMM. Paladin is buffed even more now with Critical Touch affecting also Divine Shelter. Warlock's shielding is a joke since it affects only certain skills which don't have great healing magnitudes in the first place. And cleric seems to be the last guy in the gang, good mainly at healing over time.
Viperion - DragonTribe guild.
Playing Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Fighter.
General
Soulweaver:
Viperion - DragonTribe guild.
Playing Ranger/Paladin/Bard/Fighter.
I was just surprised to read about your experience as Cleric healer since our farms are just as successful using one, but I can see how some groups might prefer to kick the Cleric and keep only the Paladin rather than solo tank. Paladin is a bit too powerful for end-game content currently, and I think very few would dispute that.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Quote: "This change will allow healers more time to attack with at-wills and allow for more mobility in combat". As a Devout Cleric I do not care about using damaging At-Wills in combat, as the damage really is insignificant even compared to the damage the Tank is dealing.
It looks like the Cleric will have to be very stingy regarding their divinity. A small mishap by the DPS or the Tank will be hard or impossible to compensate, which in turn doesn't really contribute towards the goal to make the healing role more dynamic. And when the divinity is empty, the Cleric can't do anything now, whereas before, channeling divinity at least gave the impression of "having something to do".
I like the changes to encounters like Bastion of Health though, I think that this goes into the right direction making healing more dynamic (healing only one person with a big heal vs. multiple with a small heal, the area is still large and hard to miss)
Well, nobody was complaining too loudly at least. There are certainly worse things in the game that could have been chosen first imo, but it seems like healing was the priority choice because it isn't where they want it to be and until it is they can't balance content. The goal is to need all three roles in every group for all content. Because things aren't working properly on the character side of the trinity, the content isn't working properly on the enemy side. Health is still pretty much binary. Alive or dead. That doesn't provide much time for healing to happen. This situation is created because enemy damage is so high because mitigation and HP are so high (Paladin Shield looking at you as part of that problem). We're still stuck in the Pre-M16 place where mechanics are focused on killing us instead of providing health/status/placement challenges for us to navigate. Ideally, mitigation, HP, and damage received will all be lowered incrementally until there is a point where the damage taken is serious enough to need heals, but low enough there is time to provide those heals creating a dynamic combat experience. Right now, heals are huge. My bastion can hit over a mil. Any time anything happens I can fill the ENTIRE raid's HP to full in one power use. That is riduculously overpowered.
The binary situation also leads to a problem of boredom with the current setup. My heals are so huge, I don't need to use them. I literally sit here and read Facebook on my iPad on my lap until the choreographed "big attack" happens. Hit bastion. Go back to reading. Anything else, I honestly don't even need to see because they'll either survive, or they won't, and there's *nothing* I can do about it. That's not particularly fun. I don't even like Facebook. As a Pallyheal, you have it a little bit better since you can proactively apply overshield to block the damage, so you have a little more active role. You need to keep a shield on.
Which provides the third point and the one that people HAVE been complaining about. As a Pallyheal, I know you've been having fun. But the other 2/3rds of us playing heal haven't been having as much fun. As a Cleric or SW, we're not particularly welcome, and we're only invited to groups by friends or if people have been looking for an hour and can't find a Pallyheal. As a Cleric, I'm not welcome in ToMM unless I switch to a DPS spec, even within my guild and friends list, because having a cleric heal along actually makes it harder to complete. It can cause the run to fail because they're short a DPS, so I can't even ASK to go without feeling guilty. If I ask to go and the run fails, then it was *my fault*. In a very real sense because I was selfish enough to want to experience the content too, my presence prevents anyone from getting to experience it. My guild took me along to get my weapons, and I don't go anymore. Because the best help I can be to the rest of them running ToMM is to NOT go. And you know how much fun that is? It's not.
Do I like the look of these changes? Not really. They're not addressing the discrepancy between the three classes at all. Pallyheal is still going to be the only one who gets to go. The rest of us will go for a few weeks til the Pallyheals figure things out, then we'll be booted out the door again as unnecessary to fill our spot with another DPS to make things go faster. The targeting system is going to be terrible when it gets to us on console the same way targeting for everything is now and instead of it being too easy where people almost never die now people are going to die a lot. I'm probably not going to be having any more fun. But, I see why they need to make changes.
i had to quote this again to drive home to the devs
this encompasses everything - read this, re read this, and read it again
we want changes but the changes you've made are completely out of touch
the above is all the feedback you need
drop the blue bars for the love of god, or make them max at 10-15% of a players health
have you noticed not one pally has come on here in 6 pages of feedback to tell every other healer class to stop crying??
its that obvious and that bad even they know it
i wish there was a way to do it without killing their bars but at this point i'm over nerfs i dont even care anymore
nerf us into the ground just get all 3 healers needed for a group
Hi.. I have one question/suggestion.
The AoE healing got effectivness decrease with more players are in AoE heal area.
I understand that main reason behind this change where that, with current rappit AoE healing usage players may skip part of game mechanics. As example LoMM second boss > Bore worm, and so called heal Check point.
This heal check point was never intended, and I assume it was intended that players would dodge incoming falling rocks, while tank block hits from Boss( bore worm).
So I want to ask you just spend few moments to think about this solution.
Remove AoE healing efffectivness readuction factor, and keep so it's healing would be same as current live.
Add: This powers cooldown increases by 3 seconds with each use. Cooldown resets to normal after 15 seconds.
Note: this is warlocks: Arm of Hadar encounter mechanic.
By using this mechanic, healers would not be able use rapid healing anymore, but Aoe healing effectivness still remain same.. And it's still would be viable in some cases..
Other possible solution is increase Divinity/Soulweave consumption with each AoE healing powers usage, and after Xs not using it, consumption would reset back to default.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
However, the situation you describe of having to be more careful when selecting your healing spells, as well as when to cast them is an intentional shift. We're shifting the mechanical difficulty of healer from optimizing your channel divinity uptime to more careful use of healing spells. On live, there isn't necessarily a lot of thought that goes into when to cast a healing spell, or who to cast it on.
In the current live meta, we observed that healers who could optimize their channel divinity uptime could keep groups up through failed mechanics almost indefinitely. We are looking to put healing in a place where it can keep a good performing group alive of course, as well as help a group recover from some mistakes—but when a group is making repeated mistakes—we are aiming to make failure happen more quickly in that instance.
Of course, we do want healing classes to be enjoyable to play, so we will absolutely take your feedback now, and in the coming months. Nothing on preview is written in stone, changes and fixes will continue to happen, both before launch and in future modules and updates. In our internal playtests, there were plenty of opportunities to use prayer of opportunity. There are often cases after healing the group where being able to apply an exceptionally powerful heal or an exceptionally powerful shield (if their health is full) for free is very useful. Please take some time to try it out in a group setting!
In the case of utility enchantments and companions which grant increases to healing however—please note that though the values on these powers have been decreased dramatically, it is only because these effects were dramatically out of line with other options for those slots, given their item level. For instance, outgoing healing bonuses offered by companions were often five times stronger than taking the equivalent amount of power for healing.
We have engineered these adjustments so that in most cases, it is still best in slot to take these sources of outgoing healing for a healer, but it is not orders of magnitude stronger than taking power. We believe that in most cases, your current setup will not have to change, even if the overall power of these effects is reduced.
If all of your spells were merely on cooldowns as they were before Module 16—you simply have a baseline of incoming damage you can heal through easily. If it suddenly increases over that threshold, you'll be unable to succeed.