I do think that far too much emphasis is given to companions in this game. I have a legend Xuna and it does a lot of damage over a single LoMM run. I would like to see the damage/stats/etc given via Xuna or bonding stones or comp inf or whatever put more into weapons/gears. I am not asking for a nerf but merely a transfer of power from pets to the main character. If you pet is adding more than 10% damage/stats then its doing far too much and has more of a role then it should. The difference in my stats with pet up versus having no pet is insane and it shouldn't be that way. The stats should be put more into gears / enchant stones and stuff that goes into you main character so that summoning a pet gives a little boost but not something thats far too vital that one cant run a dungeon without it. Can i continue as is sure, I know my class, I know my char and i know how to use pets to get to where i need to go..... that don't mean that I agree with the idea however. This is not about Xuna so much as the reliance on pets as a whole. Try to get you char anywhere close to cap stats without a pet summoned ...GL.
While I agree that it seems like the path to follow for building a toon to get teh stats for example ToMM is:
1 max number of comps asap(get all yer bonus slots filled) 2 max number and rank bonding runestones asap 3 max comp power bonues to legendary asap 4 max comp gear, and comp gear runestones asap 5 start fine tuning yer toon with enchants, etc...
Having said that, I don't want any nerfs to anything. No more nerfs, please. My pally has suffered enough, and it has taken me most of the last 2 mods to get him where he is(and I still can't find a ToMM group on xbox). If anything needs to be done, it is buffs to the weaker classes, and buffs to gears, enchants, weapons, so that augment comps don't need to be relied upon as much for stats, or so the offense/defense comps don't need to be relied upon for getting thru content.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
> Why do you even care if someone else does more damage?
>
> It's not as if the game actually gives something if you do the most damage. It's not as if Cryptic is sending you a box of chocolate-chip cookies in the mail or something every time you top Paingiver. So who cares?
If the main incentive for playng this game is to receive something from Cryptic then no one would be playing ..
But, sure; topping the DPS chart doesn't matter (lol)
> Yes but what is the big deal? The chart is more or less pointless. The only usefulness for me is to indicate if somebody did absolutely nothing. e.g. an OP may out heal a healer because the tank self heal more and the whole group does not need much heal.
I thought the same until I discovered and learnt to use the proper build. Since it I doubled my dps and like to see myself as No 1 instead of 4 or 5.
the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
The paingiver chart doesn't show dps, it shows how many hitpoints have been removed in a run rounded to a certain level of precision. It is meaningless.
> @mystar#5733 said: > the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content. > > Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties. > > Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude. > > But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
Why does it hurt people like you if someone enjoys being top dps?
It's fine to enjoy being top DPS until someone starts yelling "I want to be top DPS so nerf everything that beats me until I'm tops!"
Sorry, but if someone is using a bad build and rotation (especially if they are so bad they're getting beat out by companions) then they'll never be top DPS no matter how much nerfing occurs.
Paingiver chart is a *who got to mobs first and has burst damage* chart, not a DPS chart. Judging your *performance* by Paingiver is laughable in all but the most niche circumstances and even then it isn't a proper way to measure DPS.
Xuna was never a viable alternative to augments for end game builds ( same goes for every other combat companion ) since the Mod 16 changes, she was just bugged for a bit and some people abused it while others just heard about it. As much as i get a chuckle every time i see someone running her Xuna is a meme and so is this thread.
the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
The paingiver chart doesn't show dps, it shows how many hitpoints have been removed in a run rounded to a certain level of precision. It is meaningless.
i was just referring to people who measure their dps by the paingiver chart...good to know the technicality of it though.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
> the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
>
> Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
>
> Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
>
> But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
Why does it hurt people like you if someone enjoys being top dps?
I repeat, the paingiver chart does not show dps. It shows how many hitpoints were removed in a run. It is not an accurate measure of anything except how many hitpoints were consumed in a run and even if you want that piece of information, it isn't accurate because the amount of damage dealt on every hit is rounded up before it gets displayed on paingiver, causing it to show incorrect values. DPS = damage per second, its a measure of how much damage you do over a period of time. Paingiver cannot be used to infer dps performance for a large number of reasons, including but not limited to the following:
Overkill damage. If you hit an enemy for 1 million and it only has 100,000 life left, the paingiver chart records 100,000.
Time between packs. The time you spend running between enemies is included in the dungeon time, so even if you killed enemies with no overkill you would be counting damage over the entire run and not dps.
Damage denial. Wizard has higher dps than say Barbarian. This is pretty evident since wizard is the most desired class for ToMM. Barbarian will beat Wizard on trash fights on paingiver every single time. Why? It isn't about how much damage you can deal, its about how many hitpoints you can remove. If you run to the enemy and remove 90% of their HP before anyone else can hit them, there aren't any hitpoints for anyone else to remove.
Queue drops. This is only relevant for runs where everyone is not in the same group from the beginning to end, However, for an outsider unaware of what is going on in the run, you cannot tell if this happened or not. Player 2 might have substantially higher DpS than player 1, but they left 5 minutes into the dungeon for whatever reason.
AFK players. Whilst comparing your damage to someone who is sitting at the campfire tells you that you have higher dps than someone who is AFK, it doesn't tell you if you have higher DPS than someone who is actually playing.
Failed attempts. If the boss does not die the first time, the damage is still added to paingiver. Thus the runs with the highest paingiver scores will always be the runs that fail the most.
In addition to all of this, paingiver incentivizes playing against the team, rather than playing with them. A pretty obvious example of how this is true is back when the buff meta was a thing. A player would have a better paingiver score if they did damage rather than buffing the team, but the team would perform better if they used more supportive abilities. You can't even use paingiver to identify which players should have been contributing more, since if someone was playing hard into damage denial while the others were not, then the chart will be heavily biased into 1 person's favor anyhow.
In fact, the ideal way for a "paingiver racer" to play if all they care about is paingiver is to max out their movement speed with chultan tiger+potion of speed+scroll of fate:movement and other movement speed buffs, then run ahead and remove slightly more than half of the next pack of monster's hitpoints, before running onwards and letting the other players finish off the monsters. They will have to spend all their time cleaning up the enemies you left behind, while you are running ahead and the net result of this is that the run ends up being slower anyhow.
We need some high dps companion like this for classes like OP which has a heal and tank spec. That means solo content is a pain in the butt. Every class has a dps loadout except for OP. And if you are really that competitive get your own Xuna. That said, I have never use that companion or seen it in action but I recognize that it is very useful to have companion like that for some class and since companions is PVE only it does not mess up PVP. If you are anti-Xuna, stop grouping up with people who has the pet instead of asking it to be nerfed.
> the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
>
> Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
>
> Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
>
> But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
Why does it hurt people like you if someone enjoys being top dps?
i'm not sure how you get that it hurts me if someone enjoys being top dps...i'm grateful for players who are top dps leading us to the end and even more grateful for the ones who don't let it go to their head by looking down on other players.
I think those people who enjoy being top dps might be the ones getting hurt the most when something happens that causes them to lose their spot....especially when they call for a nerf to get their top spot back.
Like I said, maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit or other companions need to be toned up more, but the OP is tired of being outdone by lower geared players using xuna...which is understandable to a certain degree. I'm sure those players are having their fun using her even if it is only for a little while because the nerf is probably already in the working without even asking for it.
> the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
>
> Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
>
> Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
>
> But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
Why does it hurt people like you if someone enjoys being top dps?
I repeat, the paingiver chart does not show dps. It shows how many hitpoints were removed in a run. It is not an accurate measure of anything except how many hitpoints were consumed in a run and even if you want that piece of information, it isn't accurate because the amount of damage dealt on every hit is rounded up before it gets displayed on paingiver, causing it to show incorrect values. DPS = damage per second, its a measure of how much damage you do over a period of time. Paingiver cannot be used to infer dps performance for a large number of reasons, including but not limited to the following:
Overkill damage. If you hit an enemy for 1 million and it only has 100,000 life left, the paingiver chart records 100,000.
Time between packs. The time you spend running between enemies is included in the dungeon time, so even if you killed enemies with no overkill you would be counting damage over the entire run and not dps.
Damage denial. Wizard has higher dps than say Barbarian. This is pretty evident since wizard is the most desired class for ToMM. Barbarian will beat Wizard on trash fights on paingiver every single time. Why? It isn't about how much damage you can deal, its about how many hitpoints you can remove. If you run to the enemy and remove 90% of their HP before anyone else can hit them, there aren't any hitpoints for anyone else to remove.
Queue drops. This is only relevant for runs where everyone is not in the same group from the beginning to end, However, for an outsider unaware of what is going on in the run, you cannot tell if this happened or not. Player 2 might have substantially higher DpS than player 1, but they left 5 minutes into the dungeon for whatever reason.
AFK players. Whilst comparing your damage to someone who is sitting at the campfire tells you that you have higher dps than someone who is AFK, it doesn't tell you if you have higher DPS than someone who is actually playing.
Failed attempts. If the boss does not die the first time, the damage is still added to paingiver. Thus the runs with the highest paingiver scores will always be the runs that fail the most.
In addition to all of this, paingiver incentivizes playing against the team, rather than playing with them. A pretty obvious example of how this is true is back when the buff meta was a thing. A player would have a better paingiver score if they did damage rather than buffing the team, but the team would perform better if they used more supportive abilities. You can't even use paingiver to identify which players should have been contributing more, since if someone was playing hard into damage denial while the others were not, then the chart will be heavily biased into 1 person's favor anyhow.
In fact, the ideal way for a "paingiver racer" to play if all they care about is paingiver is to max out their movement speed with chultan tiger+potion of speed+scroll of fate:movement and other movement speed buffs, then run ahead and remove slightly more than half of the next pack of monster's hitpoints, before running onwards and letting the other players finish off the monsters. They will have to spend all their time cleaning up the enemies you left behind, while you are running ahead and the net result of this is that the run ends up being slower anyhow.
> @nemesrich said: > > @mystar#5733 said: > > the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content. > > > > Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties. > > > > Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude. > > > > But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for. > > Why does it hurt people like you if someone enjoys being top dps?
I know. They purportedly enjoy the game not caring about being top DPS, but do not like others to enjoy being top DPS.
2
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
>
> Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
>
> Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
>
> But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
Why does it hurt people like you if someone enjoys being top dps?
I repeat, the paingiver chart does not show dps. It shows how many hitpoints were removed in a run. It is not an accurate measure of anything except how many hitpoints were consumed in a run and even if you want that piece of information, it isn't accurate because the amount of damage dealt on every hit is rounded up before it gets displayed on paingiver, causing it to show incorrect values. DPS = damage per second, its a measure of how much damage you do over a period of time. Paingiver cannot be used to infer dps performance for a large number of reasons, including but not limited to the following:
Overkill damage. If you hit an enemy for 1 million and it only has 100,000 life left, the paingiver chart records 100,000.
Time between packs. The time you spend running between enemies is included in the dungeon time, so even if you killed enemies with no overkill you would be counting damage over the entire run and not dps.
Damage denial. Wizard has higher dps than say Barbarian. This is pretty evident since wizard is the most desired class for ToMM. Barbarian will beat Wizard on trash fights on paingiver every single time. Why? It isn't about how much damage you can deal, its about how many hitpoints you can remove. If you run to the enemy and remove 90% of their HP before anyone else can hit them, there aren't any hitpoints for anyone else to remove.
Queue drops. This is only relevant for runs where everyone is not in the same group from the beginning to end, However, for an outsider unaware of what is going on in the run, you cannot tell if this happened or not. Player 2 might have substantially higher DpS than player 1, but they left 5 minutes into the dungeon for whatever reason.
AFK players. Whilst comparing your damage to someone who is sitting at the campfire tells you that you have higher dps than someone who is AFK, it doesn't tell you if you have higher DPS than someone who is actually playing.
Failed attempts. If the boss does not die the first time, the damage is still added to paingiver. Thus the runs with the highest paingiver scores will always be the runs that fail the most.
In addition to all of this, paingiver incentivizes playing against the team, rather than playing with them. A pretty obvious example of how this is true is back when the buff meta was a thing. A player would have a better paingiver score if they did damage rather than buffing the team, but the team would perform better if they used more supportive abilities. You can't even use paingiver to identify which players should have been contributing more, since if someone was playing hard into damage denial while the others were not, then the chart will be heavily biased into 1 person's favor anyhow.
In fact, the ideal way for a "paingiver racer" to play if all they care about is paingiver is to max out their movement speed with chultan tiger+potion of speed+scroll of fate:movement and other movement speed buffs, then run ahead and remove slightly more than half of the next pack of monster's hitpoints, before running onwards and letting the other players finish off the monsters. They will have to spend all their time cleaning up the enemies you left behind, while you are running ahead and the net result of this is that the run ends up being slower anyhow.
This is an excellent summary of the "Paingiver fallacy".
As for DPS "Paingiver Racers" who speed ahead to get kills before the party arrives... Allow The Took to respond on behalf of every Tank in NW:
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
> the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
>
> Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
>
> Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
>
> But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
Why does it hurt people like you if someone enjoys being top dps?
i'm not sure how you get that it hurts me if someone enjoys being top dps...
You said: the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
One criticizes people because they have problem with them.
the paingiver chart is ineffective and yet it's the only thing we have on console to have any idea of how effective we are as dps on console. it's problematic. I don't know how many times it's made me such a sad panda I just put down my controller and don't even try for weeks or months at a time. for me it's not a race to be first but to measure how effective I am. I think a lot of people are probably that way. we don't have any kind of act testing we can do to see how we are doing. I personally think paingiver chart is terrible. I wish there was some other way to assess how we are doing as a dps and that they would trash paingiver as a measuring device or redo how it's calculated.
the truth is if you aren't at the top of the dps chart the other people DO talk and they do think badly of you. I've heard it done to others repeatedly. (which makes me sure it's done to me) your reputation in this game is hinged on it, even though it really is something as stupid as who is literally fastest to get there most of the time. the people who do invest in things to make them speedy gonzales are the ones who people chase to be in all their runs because of that chart. (another thing I've witnessed repeatedly)
my wishlist would be some sort of instance you can enter solo or with a group of up to ten and run some simulations of current content and then get a detailed report at the end so you can test builds and get some detailed numbers on how you are doing and then just ditch the paingiver entirely at the end of a match. I do think paingiver does more harm than good.
the paingiver chart is ineffective and yet it's the only thing we have on console to have any idea of how effective we are as dps on console. it's problematic. I don't know how many times it's made me such a sad panda I just put down my controller and don't even try for weeks or months at a time. for me it's not a race to be first but to measure how effective I am. I think a lot of people are probably that way. we don't have any kind of act testing we can do to see how we are doing. I personally think paingiver chart is terrible. I wish there was some other way to assess how we are doing as a dps and that they would trash paingiver as a measuring device or redo how it's calculated.
the truth is if you aren't at the top of the dps chart the other people DO talk and they do think badly of you. I've heard it done to others repeatedly. (which makes me sure it's done to me) your reputation in this game is hinged on it, even though it really is something as stupid as who is literally fastest to get there most of the time. the people who do invest in things to make them speedy gonzales are the ones who people chase to be in all their runs because of that chart. (another thing I've witnessed repeatedly)
my wishlist would be some sort of instance you can enter solo or with a group of up to ten and run some simulations of current content and then get a detailed report at the end so you can test builds and get some detailed numbers on how you are doing and then just ditch the paingiver entirely at the end of a match. I do think paingiver does more harm than good.
Do Hellpit, to see how effective you are. I've done 2 days so far with my pally, and have been pleased so far. See what happens when I get to tier 3.
Elsewise another thing I have done to check my effectiveness is to run a 1 rune ME solo. When I first finished mod 16 I started doing them solo simply because I could. I could do up to 2 runes solo with my pally. It took like 30min for one ME, but I could do it. 3 runes was not possible. My warlock could do it in 20min IIRC, also at about the same IL as my pally was at the time he did it, maybe 500 IL lower. I know you'll lose out on an ME for the day if you try this, but for me at least it's a good measure since console doesn't have ACT or similar. I haven't soloed a 1 rune ME with my pally since hitting 25k IL. I should do that to see what he's like.
I still want to see no more nerfs and more in game info on what everything is, or does. I have to actually use the power ups in Hellpit just to see what they do. That's not cool.
the paingiver chart is ineffective and yet it's the only thing we have on console to have any idea of how effective we are as dps on console. it's problematic. I don't know how many times it's made me such a sad panda I just put down my controller and don't even try for weeks or months at a time. for me it's not a race to be first but to measure how effective I am. I think a lot of people are probably that way. we don't have any kind of act testing we can do to see how we are doing. I personally think paingiver chart is terrible. I wish there was some other way to assess how we are doing as a dps and that they would trash paingiver as a measuring device or redo how it's calculated.
the truth is if you aren't at the top of the dps chart the other people DO talk and they do think badly of you. I've heard it done to others repeatedly. (which makes me sure it's done to me) your reputation in this game is hinged on it, even though it really is something as stupid as who is literally fastest to get there most of the time. the people who do invest in things to make them speedy gonzales are the ones who people chase to be in all their runs because of that chart. (another thing I've witnessed repeatedly)
my wishlist would be some sort of instance you can enter solo or with a group of up to ten and run some simulations of current content and then get a detailed report at the end so you can test builds and get some detailed numbers on how you are doing and then just ditch the paingiver entirely at the end of a match. I do think paingiver does more harm than good.
Do Hellpit, to see how effective you are. I've done 2 days so far with my pally, and have been pleased so far. See what happens when I get to tier 3.
Elsewise another thing I have done to check my effectiveness is to run a 1 rune ME solo. When I first finished mod 16 I started doing them solo simply because I could. I could do up to 2 runes solo with my pally. It took like 30min for one ME, but I could do it. 3 runes was not possible. My warlock could do it in 20min IIRC, also at about the same IL as my pally was at the time he did it, maybe 500 IL lower. I know you'll lose out on an ME for the day if you try this, but for me at least it's a good measure since console doesn't have ACT or similar. I haven't soloed a 1 rune ME with my pally since hitting 25k IL. I should do that to see what he's like.
I still want to see no more nerfs and more in game info on what everything is, or does. I have to actually use the power ups in Hellpit just to see what they do. That's not cool.
I don't think that is a valid way of testing effectiveness. easy content is easy. I want a numerical baseline to be able to use.
as far as the topic goes xuna nerf. I have no idea what the actual numbers are but I will say I've been repeatedly disappointed by how they've chosen to make actual companions inferior to augments. I wish they'd buff up comps to be a valid replacement for augments as the meta. I find them to be very boring. as it is the only real purpose comps serve is for their bonus slot and for new players to the game who can't afford to get their augment to leg yet.
@thefiresidecat I own a Xuna on my rogue Silvane Stardust. She crits about every attack and even the ones that are not crits basically do the same amount of damage (very high). She has bloodbath on a 19 second or less cool down. I can go into most mobs, toss a dagger and enter stealth. When I exit stealth the mob I hit is dead. If I am playing in a low end area, several mobs are dead in the district.
I believe Xuna is WAI. She kills stuff. Eventually some developer will come along and nerf her and quite possibly ban everyone who ever owned a Xuna for exploiting her ability. That is about the way this game functions most of the time. IF or WHEN that ever happens, I won't rage quit or come in crying about it. If they make her pathetic, I will find the next thing to replace her. Until that time, I just live in the moment and thumb my nose at anyone who wants to nerf items in a game. Why not title the thread "All companions should be as good as Xuna"?
True end game, Xuna is nothing more then a fun toy to run while soloing. I do significantly more damage running an augment. Anyone trying to bring Xuna into Tomm would be instant kicked. For the sake of the dark elder gods, stop trying to nerf everything into the ground just because your own toon sucks.
I still have a xuna from the anniversary event. (xuna makos choice box) maybe I should try her out
I equipped mine just to see what all the fuss was about. I wasn’t impressed. I do way more damage with an augment. The only benefit I see to using Xuna is keeping mobs away/in check while soloing (This is on a Arbiter Cleric as well)
I wouldn't try to bring any non augment into tomm. that would be silly. and just impractical. no way I could get my stats high enough to met min with a reg comp.
... She crits about every attack and even the ones that are not crits basically do the same amount of damage...
Actually, you might have a hard time to find any companion that has critical attack multiplier higher than 1. (all the companions I tested - at least those at higher lvl than 1 - do the same dmg on critical and non critical hits)
Comments
1 max number of comps asap(get all yer bonus slots filled)
2 max number and rank bonding runestones asap
3 max comp power bonues to legendary asap
4 max comp gear, and comp gear runestones asap
5 start fine tuning yer toon with enchants, etc...
Having said that, I don't want any nerfs to anything. No more nerfs, please. My pally has suffered enough, and it has taken me most of the last 2 mods to get him where he is(and I still can't find a ToMM group on xbox). If anything needs to be done, it is buffs to the weaker classes, and buffs to gears, enchants, weapons, so that augment comps don't need to be relied upon as much for stats, or so the offense/defense comps don't need to be relied upon for getting thru content.
Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
> the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
>
> Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
>
> Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
>
> But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
Why does it hurt people like you if someone enjoys being top dps?
Sorry, but if someone is using a bad build and rotation (especially if they are so bad they're getting beat out by companions) then they'll never be top DPS no matter how much nerfing occurs.
Xuna was never a viable alternative to augments for end game builds ( same goes for every other combat companion ) since the Mod 16 changes, she was just bugged for a bit and some people abused it while others just heard about it. As much as i get a chuckle every time i see someone running her Xuna is a meme and so is this thread.
I repeat, the paingiver chart does not show dps. It shows how many hitpoints were removed in a run. It is not an accurate measure of anything except how many hitpoints were consumed in a run and even if you want that piece of information, it isn't accurate because the amount of damage dealt on every hit is rounded up before it gets displayed on paingiver, causing it to show incorrect values. DPS = damage per second, its a measure of how much damage you do over a period of time. Paingiver cannot be used to infer dps performance for a large number of reasons, including but not limited to the following:
- Overkill damage. If you hit an enemy for 1 million and it only has 100,000 life left, the paingiver chart records 100,000.
- Time between packs. The time you spend running between enemies is included in the dungeon time, so even if you killed enemies with no overkill you would be counting damage over the entire run and not dps.
- Damage denial. Wizard has higher dps than say Barbarian. This is pretty evident since wizard is the most desired class for ToMM. Barbarian will beat Wizard on trash fights on paingiver every single time. Why? It isn't about how much damage you can deal, its about how many hitpoints you can remove. If you run to the enemy and remove 90% of their HP before anyone else can hit them, there aren't any hitpoints for anyone else to remove.
- Queue drops. This is only relevant for runs where everyone is not in the same group from the beginning to end, However, for an outsider unaware of what is going on in the run, you cannot tell if this happened or not. Player 2 might have substantially higher DpS than player 1, but they left 5 minutes into the dungeon for whatever reason.
- AFK players. Whilst comparing your damage to someone who is sitting at the campfire tells you that you have higher dps than someone who is AFK, it doesn't tell you if you have higher DPS than someone who is actually playing.
- Failed attempts. If the boss does not die the first time, the damage is still added to paingiver. Thus the runs with the highest paingiver scores will always be the runs that fail the most.
In addition to all of this, paingiver incentivizes playing against the team, rather than playing with them. A pretty obvious example of how this is true is back when the buff meta was a thing. A player would have a better paingiver score if they did damage rather than buffing the team, but the team would perform better if they used more supportive abilities. You can't even use paingiver to identify which players should have been contributing more, since if someone was playing hard into damage denial while the others were not, then the chart will be heavily biased into 1 person's favor anyhow.In fact, the ideal way for a "paingiver racer" to play if all they care about is paingiver is to max out their movement speed with chultan tiger+potion of speed+scroll of fate:movement and other movement speed buffs, then run ahead and remove slightly more than half of the next pack of monster's hitpoints, before running onwards and letting the other players finish off the monsters. They will have to spend all their time cleaning up the enemies you left behind, while you are running ahead and the net result of this is that the run ends up being slower anyhow.
I think those people who enjoy being top dps might be the ones getting hurt the most when something happens that causes them to lose their spot....especially when they call for a nerf to get their top spot back.
Like I said, maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit or other companions need to be toned up more, but the OP is tired of being outdone by lower geared players using xuna...which is understandable to a certain degree. I'm sure those players are having their fun using her even if it is only for a little while because the nerf is probably already in the working without even asking for it.
> > @mystar#5733 said:
> > the paingiver chart isn't meaningless for people who need to be number one on the chart to feed their ego. Some of us don't need to be the top dps to have FUN running content.
> >
> > Sure it's nice checking the chart and seeing an increase in dps after doing some upgrades because it shows improvement, but I'm pretty sure there's more than enough players out there who aren't using xuna topping the chart than people who are using xuna...even in the same parties.
> >
> > Maybe xuna does need to be toned down a bit, or other companions need to be toned up more, but to take away the FUN other players are having using her (or anything else that gives them a FUN level boost) just so you can be "better" than them....well it's a pretty lame attitude.
> >
> > But hey, I get it....you have FUN being top dps and not so much FUN if you aren't. I'm pretty sure the paingiver chart isn't supposed to be about competing with other players for who does the most damage, that's what pvp is for.
>
> Why does it hurt people like you if someone enjoys being top dps?
I know. They purportedly enjoy the game not caring about being top DPS, but do not like others to enjoy being top DPS.
As for DPS "Paingiver Racers" who speed ahead to get kills before the party arrives...
Allow The Took to respond on behalf of every Tank in NW:
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
One criticizes people because they have problem with them.
If you dont think the Xuna is bugged you don't have it setup right, bloody stupid arguement! Keep botting your damage but its a sad state to get in.
Instead of this, all other companions (that is not an augmentation companion) need a damage buff.
the truth is if you aren't at the top of the dps chart the other people DO talk and they do think badly of you. I've heard it done to others repeatedly. (which makes me sure it's done to me) your reputation in this game is hinged on it, even though it really is something as stupid as who is literally fastest to get there most of the time. the people who do invest in things to make them speedy gonzales are the ones who people chase to be in all their runs because of that chart. (another thing I've witnessed repeatedly)
my wishlist would be some sort of instance you can enter solo or with a group of up to ten and run some simulations of current content and then get a detailed report at the end so you can test builds and get some detailed numbers on how you are doing and then just ditch the paingiver entirely at the end of a match. I do think paingiver does more harm than good.
Elsewise another thing I have done to check my effectiveness is to run a 1 rune ME solo. When I first finished mod 16 I started doing them solo simply because I could. I could do up to 2 runes solo with my pally. It took like 30min for one ME, but I could do it. 3 runes was not possible. My warlock could do it in 20min IIRC, also at about the same IL as my pally was at the time he did it, maybe 500 IL lower. I know you'll lose out on an ME for the day if you try this, but for me at least it's a good measure since console doesn't have ACT or similar. I haven't soloed a 1 rune ME with my pally since hitting 25k IL. I should do that to see what he's like.
I still want to see no more nerfs and more in game info on what everything is, or does. I have to actually use the power ups in Hellpit just to see what they do. That's not cool.
I believe Xuna is WAI. She kills stuff. Eventually some developer will come along and nerf her and quite possibly ban everyone who ever owned a Xuna for exploiting her ability. That is about the way this game functions most of the time. IF or WHEN that ever happens, I won't rage quit or come in crying about it. If they make her pathetic, I will find the next thing to replace her. Until that time, I just live in the moment and thumb my nose at anyone who wants to nerf items in a game. Why not title the thread "All companions should be as good as Xuna"?
You lose 5k or so Power, and most likely the damage from Xuna outweights that.