The Maths of the new Random Queue System

callumf#9018 · September 2019

It occurred to me straight away that the change to Randoms; mandatory 1 tank , 1 healer and 3 DPS per run is a mathematical nightmare that cant be solved - DEVS please switch it back before we all go insane.

Lets look at some maths - lets assume there are zero players queuing for RLQ at my calculation start point.

Lets assume 5% healer toons, 20% tank toons and 75% dps toons.

So lets assume the first 15 to queue are all dps [double expected norm] then 2 tanks join the queue then another 5 dps then a healer joins.

Queue pops for 3 dps, 1 of the tanks and the healer who joined just now.

But hold on this only reduces the queue down to 17 dps and 1 tank and the cycle begins again, where there is NEVER going to be parity between the number of healers required and those queuing who are DPS. Because more DPS are joning the queue ALL THE TIME than healers or tanks - disproportionally.

For this to work there would need to be 20% healers, 20% tanks and 60% dps.

Mathematically this is a right forking mess. It really hasn't BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH. Oops sorry for caps.

lantern22 · September 2019

RLQ is HAMSTER atm

sgtpostal#4408 · September 2019

before everybody goes insane? well the devs already went insane they jus waiting on everybody esle now...... why you think they did smethin crazy like this with the thought that it would possibly incrase the completion rate of some of the q's.... their boats rather empty (the insane boat).... they needed company lol

empalas · September 2019

There intent was to increase the % success rate. How many times they get run was never figured into the equation. My guess % success rate has increased...but the total number of runs for each queue is significantly less. So they might have achieved their objective. Just a nasty side effect.

pakatapoes · September 2019

to make it more scary , after the 5% healers done with their runs , what will happend with the 15% tank and the 70% dps
Thats a Stevie Wonder

ecrana#2080 · September 2019

This is what you call a lose-lose.

5 dps head into a skirm and fail. Come to forums and complain.
Now you need 3 dps, 1 tank, 1 cleric. Now dps players are back complaining that the Q doesn't pop because, you guessed it, not enough support anymore.

You can have quick Qs you fail at or long waits you succeed at.

My win-win solution is simple. Never, I mean never ever never, random Q.

Run with premades only and if no one's around I want to run with I use that time to catch up on other things. Win #1 - I don't have to deal with bad Qs. Win #2 - when I run, it's fast and completed every time so no missing out on chests/ad after wasting time and having to leave a Q.

namelesshero347 · September 2019

pakatapoes said:
to make it more scary , after the 5% healers done with their runs , what will happend with the 15% tank and the 70% dps
Thats a Stevie Wonder

Those other 85%, when the pain of waiting becomes too great for them, will swallow their pride and queue as tank/heal if they have that option, or roll a new paladin toon. It's RLQ. It's okay to bring in a trash tank/heal as their not expected to contribute significant dps.

tribbulater · September 2019

Situation is actually (from a design perspective) even worse:

Step 1: Spend years showing everyone the only thing you need to complete a queue is some DPS, plus DPS, plus more DPS.
Step 2: Spend years making OP stats, nerfing others and unbalancing classes to the point that tanks, healers and 'others' (control wizard anyone?) are basically told "You're not wanted for this run unless you can buff the DPS".
Step 3: Remove all the buffs and bonuses that support classes previously provided, and saddle them with dumb mechanics.
Step 4: Wait for everyone to stop playing support classes.
Step 5: Force all random queues to have 2 support classes in order to run.
Step 6: Profit?

darthpotater · September 2019

"Premium Queue Service for DPS" coming soon to Zen store, dont worry

callumf#9018 · September 2019

ecrana#2080 said:
This is what you call a lose-lose.

5 dps head into a skirm and fail. Come to forums and complain.
Now you need 3 dps, 1 tank, 1 cleric. Now dps players are back complaining that the Q doesn't pop because, you guessed it, not enough support anymore.

You can have quick Qs you fail at or long waits you succeed at.

My win-win solution is simple. Never, I mean never ever never, random Q.

Run with premades only and if no one's around I want to run with I use that time to catch up on other things. Win #1 - I don't have to deal with bad Qs. Win #2 - when I run, it's fast and completed every time so no missing out on chests/ad after wasting time and having to leave a Q.

I don't really recall seeing people complain about failing skirmishes?

Generally if I was ever in a group which got Merchant Prince Folly or Manycoins Bank Heist, I was happy to abandon skirmish if I could see it was going to fail, and take the 30 min timer hit and go and do something else. And rejoin the queue later. It was never a problem.

namelesshero347 · September 2019

There were a number of complaints. People mainly complained about manycoins and asking for a fix. It is another case of, "Be careful what you wish for". Having a RLQ and RIQ that both can generally be done in under 20 minutes, including wait time, and walking away with ~40K RAD was not good enough. They could not stand the occasional manycoins fails or penalty they had to take. They wanted everything perfect.

callumf#9018 · September 2019

namelesshero347 said:
There were a number of complaints. People mainly complained about manycoins and asking for a fix. It is another case of, "Be careful what you wish for". Having a RLQ and RIQ that both can generally be done in under 20 minutes, including wait time, and walking away with ~40K RAD was not good enough. They could not stand the occasional manycoins fails or penalty they had to take. They wanted everything perfect.

Thankyou - as a fairly regular forum viewer I didn't come across any of this.

And YES really we must be careful, like you said. Great point, well made

namelesshero347 · September 2019

Though the complaints may not matter as we now know that the devs do have metrics and do look at them. The change was going to happen with or without the complaints.

wintersmoke · September 2019

callumf#9018 said:
It occurred to me straight away that the change to Randoms; mandatory 1 tank , 1 healer and 3 DPS per run is a mathematical nightmare that cant be solved - DEVS please switch it back before we all go insane.

Lets look at some maths - lets assume there are zero players queuing for RLQ at my calculation start point.

Lets assume 5% healer toons, 20% tank toons and 75% dps toons.

So lets assume the first 15 to queue are all dps [double expected norm] then 2 tanks join the queue then another 5 dps then a healer joins.

Queue pops for 3 dps, 1 of the tanks and the healer who joined just now.

But hold on this only reduces the queue down to 17 dps and 1 tank and the cycle begins again, where there is NEVER going to be parity between the number of healers required and those queuing who are DPS. Because more DPS are joning the queue ALL THE TIME than healers or tanks - disproportionally.

For this to work there would need to be 20% healers, 20% tanks and 60% dps.

Mathematically this is a right forking mess. It really hasn't BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH. Oops sorry for caps.

just to throw a left-handed monkey wrench at your maths… every player with more than 1 year in game has a DC alt. They used to be mandatory for running dungeons as buffers. The fact that those players are suddenly unwilling to play those toons is an entirely different conversation.

cherryman1 · September 2019

Eventually people will adjust and start running their tanks and healers through. Until then, dps classes will just have to wait. I think this also pushes players to get up a healer/tank class so it might push for a better diversity in classes. I'm torn on the change since I think a better and more diverse group of classes in game is good for it while at the same time want players to get into content in a relatively nominal amount of time.

callumf#9018 · September 2019

wintersmoke said:

callumf#9018 said:
It occurred to me straight away that the change to Randoms; mandatory 1 tank , 1 healer and 3 DPS per run is a mathematical nightmare that cant be solved - DEVS please switch it back before we all go insane.

Lets look at some maths - lets assume there are zero players queuing for RLQ at my calculation start point.

Lets assume 5% healer toons, 20% tank toons and 75% dps toons.

So lets assume the first 15 to queue are all dps [double expected norm] then 2 tanks join the queue then another 5 dps then a healer joins.

Queue pops for 3 dps, 1 of the tanks and the healer who joined just now.

But hold on this only reduces the queue down to 17 dps and 1 tank and the cycle begins again, where there is NEVER going to be parity between the number of healers required and those queuing who are DPS. Because more DPS are joning the queue ALL THE TIME than healers or tanks - disproportionally.

For this to work there would need to be 20% healers, 20% tanks and 60% dps.

Mathematically this is a right forking mess. It really hasn't BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH. Oops sorry for caps.
just to throw a left-handed monkey wrench at your maths… every player with more than 1 year in game has a DC alt. They used to be mandatory for running dungeons as buffers. The fact that those players are suddenly unwilling to play those toons is an entirely different conversation.

Sorry but actually I've been here three years or something like that and I never ran a DC alt once or created one. Nor ever had the inclination to do so

mentinmindmaker · September 2019

One could argue that it is better this way by enforcing the proper ratios between tank-heal-dps from the beginning, rather that having the player mass meet that wall once they get to RIQ.

If people start running more tank-heal as a consequence of this, it might eventually shorten the queue times in RIQ and RAQ.

That would be a good development.

mebengalsfan#9264 · September 2019

wintersmoke said:

callumf#9018 said:
It occurred to me straight away that the change to Randoms; mandatory 1 tank , 1 healer and 3 DPS per run is a mathematical nightmare that cant be solved - DEVS please switch it back before we all go insane.

Lets look at some maths - lets assume there are zero players queuing for RLQ at my calculation start point.

Lets assume 5% healer toons, 20% tank toons and 75% dps toons.

So lets assume the first 15 to queue are all dps [double expected norm] then 2 tanks join the queue then another 5 dps then a healer joins.

Queue pops for 3 dps, 1 of the tanks and the healer who joined just now.

But hold on this only reduces the queue down to 17 dps and 1 tank and the cycle begins again, where there is NEVER going to be parity between the number of healers required and those queuing who are DPS. Because more DPS are joning the queue ALL THE TIME than healers or tanks - disproportionally.

For this to work there would need to be 20% healers, 20% tanks and 60% dps.

Mathematically this is a right forking mess. It really hasn't BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH. Oops sorry for caps.
just to throw a left-handed monkey wrench at your maths… every player with more than 1 year in game has a DC alt. They used to be mandatory for running dungeons as buffers. The fact that those players are suddenly unwilling to play those toons is an entirely different conversation.

I'm one of those players and the reason is I hate how the cleric operates as a healer; it one of the worst healing type of mechanic I have seen in any MMO game I have played. Praying to regain divinity when is just stupid. Same with the paladin healer as well. I dislike both type of healing styles. I haven't tried warlock but I stopped playing all but a tank, cleric and wizard back during mod 13 landed. Now I'm only playing one character and that is my wizard.

I had no issues playing my cleric as a healer/buffer when needed in mod 15 or prior but mod 16 seriously destroyed my desire to play my cleric. I played through 3 LoMM now as a healer on my cleric and I hated every second of those runs. I don't mind tanking but it takes just as long for a REQ or RAQ to pop on my tank as it does my wizard. This tells me there are less healers in game than any other role.

The developers need to to adjust the mechanics to healing as it is boring as HAMSTER, at least on a cleric.

schietindebux · September 2019

Actually my impression from rlq is that those trial demo and tiamat are a nightmare in the sum, no way to join without tank heal and hdps...a average groups with low geared player inside are a waste of time
Other dungeons are way to easy, no balance, but that's a known issue for many things in this game

asterdahl · September 2019

Hi everyone, thanks for sharing your feedback and thoughts. We know that many of you are frustrated with the increased queue times, and I'd like to apologize for the increased wait times. We made changes to the required roles for skirmishes after looking over the data from the past few months: many groups randomly matched with non-standard group compositions had a lot more trouble with certain skirmishes. If we made adjustments to make those skirmishes easier, they would be absolutely trivial when the queue system put a standard group together, so after much debate we decided to enable role restrictions for public skirmishes instead.

As a result, queue times, specifically for the most populous role (DPS) have increased. In order to alleviate the issue, this Thursday's build will include the addition of role bonuses to the random leveling queue. Players who queue as the role most currently in need for the leveling queue will receive bonus rough AD. In addition, the leveling queue will correctly display the required roles.

We understand that there are certain skirmishes which are trivial even with a sub-optimal group composition, and that skilled players can get through almost any queue in the random leveling queue with not only a sub-optimal but an incomplete group. However, the random leveling queue is meant to be comfortable for new players to join in and learn how the game works. We made these adjustments so that the basics of tanking and healing would be reinforced early on, and so that the random leveling queue didn't lean so heavily towards only popping a handful of skirmishes because it would always build groups entirely out of DPS.

We believe that the addition of role bonuses along with the community adjusting to the changes over the next few weeks will greatly alleviate the increased queue times. We will continue to monitor the queue times moving forward and make any adjustments as needed, we appreciate your patience in the meantime!

darkheart#6758 · September 2019

> @cherryman1 said:
> Eventually people will adjust and start running their tanks and healers through. Until then, dps classes will just have to wait. I think this also pushes players to get up a healer/tank class so it might push for a better diversity in classes. I'm torn on the change since I think a better and more diverse group of classes in game is good for it while at the same time want players to get into content in a relatively nominal amount of time.

Or those people will eventually leave and find another game. Trying to force players to play a class they don't like just to play the dungeons is not an winning game model.

ecrana#2080 · September 2019

asterdahl said:
As a result, queue times, specifically for the most populous role (DPS) have increased. In order to alleviate the issue, this Thursday's build will include the addition of role bonuses to the random leveling queue. Players who queue as the role most currently in need for the leveling queue will receive bonus rough AD. In addition, the leveling queue will correctly display the required roles.

I'm not really sure this is going to fix much.

Take it from my perspective:
I've been playing years. I have a 2 tank specs, 3 healer specs, and 6 dps specs across all classes.

1 - I have enough rough AD to not have to bother with RQs.

2 - I haven't run anything but REQ in ages because the other Q's quite frankly suck. The merging of dungeons and skirms in Qs was a horrible decision. Luckily....see point 1.

3 - Unless you're offering up 50-75k bonus rough AD you just are not enticing me. Even if you are offering that much you're barely enticing because....see point 1.

4 - Scaling. I won't take part in this mess. Since you've scaled basically everything in Qs I refuse to run them. Luckily....see point 1.

5 - While I have multiple healers, I only use them to fill holes when running with friends. For the most part, healing classes are boring in this game.

6 - I enjoy both my pally and barbie tanks. But when you've pugged a few times and ended up top dps on your tank....well I'll just pass on that because....see point 1.

So yeah, some bonus rough AD isn't really enticing anyone but maybe newer players. Maybe you get some newer players to try making a tank/heal class as well. But in my experience most newer players are still interested in dps, dps, dps.

Add on to that the fact that a good chunk of DC/OP/SW/GF/GWF have moved on because they didn't like the new direction of the classes and the issue is compounded.

There are just way too many issues that go into the Qs not popping fast. More rough simply isn't going to fix them all.

regenerde · September 2019

Well, it doesn't matter what your initial goal or plan was with this change, you're only pissing of your players right now, and you're driving a wedge between new and longtime players as well. Vet. players are going to simply stop joining any RQ outside of their friends/guilds/alliances group, and new players won't get into any RQ on their own, since they're told to stick to a DPS loadout until they reach level 30 and can have a second loadout.

Not to mention that the next change you have planed will probably lead to even more frustration on the playerside when some people, that aren't able or willing to tank or heal, simply switch their loadout to those roles to get that rAD bonus.
Another thing i can't understand, nearly all content is scaled from here to the Nine Hells and back, but the rewards are still as crappy as ever, so when will that be changed?

Anyway, trying to force a certain playstyle on players will allways backfire in some way.

Last but not least, any word on when companions will be updated? Most of them are pretty much useless since the release of Undermountain, and i think it's high time to change that...

mebengalsfan#9264 · September 2019

asterdahl said:
Hi everyone, thanks for sharing your feedback and thoughts. We know that many of you are frustrated with the increased queue times, and I'd like to apologize for the increased wait times. We made changes to the required roles for skirmishes after looking over the data from the past few months: many groups randomly matched with non-standard group compositions had a lot more trouble with certain skirmishes. If we made adjustments to make those skirmishes easier, they would be absolutely trivial when the queue system put a standard group together, so after much debate we decided to enable role restrictions for public skirmishes instead.

As a result, queue times, specifically for the most populous role (DPS) have increased. In order to alleviate the issue, this Thursday's build will include the addition of role bonuses to the random leveling queue. Players who queue as the role most currently in need for the leveling queue will receive bonus rough AD. In addition, the leveling queue will correctly display the required roles.

We understand that there are certain skirmishes which are trivial even with a sub-optimal group composition, and that skilled players can get through almost any queue in the random leveling queue with not only a sub-optimal but an incomplete group. However, the random leveling queue is meant to be comfortable for new players to join in and learn how the game works. We made these adjustments so that the basics of tanking and healing would be reinforced early on, and so that the random leveling queue didn't lean so heavily towards only popping a handful of skirmishes because it would always build groups entirely out of DPS.

We believe that the addition of role bonuses along with the community adjusting to the changes over the next few weeks will greatly alleviate the increased queue times. We will continue to monitor the queue times moving forward and make any adjustments as needed, we appreciate your patience in the meantime!

Role bonus won't really resolve much; it may reduce some of the Q time but overall it will won't fix the issue. Look at the PS4 log for RAQ and REQ time and that is what PC player should expect. I waited 2 hours for RAQ and logged off because it took to long to get into a Q as a DPS. Same with REQ. Players that don't run with a guild/alliance will suffer and quit if they can't get AD.

oremonger#9999 · September 2019

@asterdahl , @terramak , @noworries#8859, @mimicking#6533, @nitocris83
I said it a long time ago in another Random Queue thread. Requiring roles WILL break the queue system because there are not enough people playing the roles needed. MOD 16 and recent changes to "Healing" classes made it to where even fewer people are willing to play those roles.

In the early game several of the quests involve NPCs in roles to help players progress through the quests. Most times they were DPS roles, but sometimes they were healing roles.

Why not spawn in a Celeste NPC to heal for skirmishes?

Why not spawn in a Sgt Knox to tank for skirmishes?

I mean they really don't have to "DO" anything, you just make the Knox NPC generate threat and the Celeste NPC spam heals. Problem solved. Now the DPS classes can Queue in parties of 5 and not have to wait for healers or tanks. Look at your metrics DEVS. You know you can not support queues like they are set up. We warned you about this when you first forced them on us.

This same idea could be used to make any queue pop within a reasonable time. Say 5 minutes go by and a queue has not popped send a pop up to the members waiting asking if they want to use NPC fillers. Yes it will not be an optimal party, but so much of this game is already so janky it probably will not matter much.

Let's be honest, BOTS have been doing this for years in every single MMO on the market. Why not use that technology to save your damn game.

lantern22 · September 2019

asterdahl said:
Hi everyone, thanks for sharing your feedback and thoughts. We know that many of you are frustrated with the increased queue times, and I'd like to apologize for the increased wait times. We made changes to the required roles for skirmishes after looking over the data from the past few months: many groups randomly matched with non-standard group compositions had a lot more trouble with certain skirmishes. If we made adjustments to make those skirmishes easier, they would be absolutely trivial when the queue system put a standard group together, so after much debate we decided to enable role restrictions for public skirmishes instead.

As a result, queue times, specifically for the most populous role (DPS) have increased. In order to alleviate the issue, this Thursday's build will include the addition of role bonuses to the random leveling queue. Players who queue as the role most currently in need for the leveling queue will receive bonus rough AD. In addition, the leveling queue will correctly display the required roles.

We understand that there are certain skirmishes which are trivial even with a sub-optimal group composition, and that skilled players can get through almost any queue in the random leveling queue with not only a sub-optimal but an incomplete group. However, the random leveling queue is meant to be comfortable for new players to join in and learn how the game works. We made these adjustments so that the basics of tanking and healing would be reinforced early on, and so that the random leveling queue didn't lean so heavily towards only popping a handful of skirmishes because it would always build groups entirely out of DPS.

We believe that the addition of role bonuses along with the community adjusting to the changes over the next few weeks will greatly alleviate the increased queue times. We will continue to monitor the queue times moving forward and make any adjustments as needed, we appreciate your patience in the meantime!

It is not just about the ratio of DPS to Tanks/Heals in the Q system.

Last night we had a fully formed group and was Qing for REQ and it took somewhere between 5-10mins for the Q to pop. Why is it not instant if you meet the requirements and don't need to wait for anyone?

aerhythia#3255 · September 2019

Yup, that's why I suggested some reward like a runic etching (or whatever the thing for zok boxes is called) in the other thread as a possible role bonus reward and unify the role bonus for tanks and healers. Maybe a currency for successful runs while having the role bonus that can be exchanged for other items.

burnthedead#7732 · September 2019

Scourge healer is the poor cousin of the heal classes. We need higher magnitude across the board. If you give me a less wonky, more effective Templock, I'll que your garbage, until then I'm LFG+ SW+ HDPS.

The Maths of the new Random Queue System

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