Whilst I have (admittedly) been a little less graceful in completing the trial than I should have been, none of those of us who have beaten the trial are spamming channels asking for, "exp" players. In fact, when people do do that, we have taken the time to call them out for it every so often, when we see it happen. We have ran with the people we trained with because we spent days worth of time practicing on preview (I think my black ice overloads ran out of time 5 times on preview, that is 40h of time) as a group and when the trial came to live, we stuck with that group, because we had committed a lot of work into forming it.
We also took the time to write guides on how to beat the trial, for anyone else who wants to give it a try. I won't lie, it won't be easy and you will also fail a lot before you succeed, but it isn't like anything is hidden. You can see how we did it and from there try to replicate our successes.
I thank you all for the work you and everyone has done for the new trial. At the same time, the trial should be removed until the developers can make it so that all dd are on closer footing with the fix they have mentioned. Until that is done the damage dealers in every ToMM runs will be Ranger, Rogue and Wizard as they offer the highest damage potential.
I don't expect Cryptic to do anything with ToMM; however, the game current states makes it unfair for four of the seven damage dealer classes. You know that and even admitted that Cleric DD were bad in ToMM. Its not that Clerics are bad its just that Wizards do to much damage.
No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
The experience in my guild, that I have seen, is that fewer people have been logging in, because they are bored out of their minds with nothing to do except endless ME's all day. "Well, why not try TOMM?" To do TOMM you need very expensive gear even to get to the 24k mark. Is it even possible to get to 24k with only blue/purple insignia, purple companions only, purple mount only, and max rank 13 enchants? Those last few steps to get the legendary mount/insignia/companions/enchants are very very expensive.
But what irritates me the most about how Mod 16/17 shook out, is the apparent blurred lines between the devs and some of the elites. The devs invited a number of elite players to trial test Mod 16, designed basically a brand new game based heavily on their feedback, tuned the damage of TOMM based on their input, and - lo and behold - it's many of those very same elite players who are benefitting the most from this brand new game. We would all scream foul if Asterdahl or some other dev were to use his inside knowledge of the game to play the game and manipulate it for his benefit in-game. And yet there is the appearance of a bunch of mini-Asterdahl's doing the same thing right now in the game. It smells fishy, and the devs should do a better job separating the game players from the game developers.
Whilst I have (admittedly) been a little less graceful in completing the trial than I should have been, none of those of us who have beaten the trial are spamming channels asking for, "exp" players. In fact, when people do do that, we have taken the time to call them out for it every so often, when we see it happen. We have ran with the people we trained with because we spent days worth of time practicing on preview (I think my black ice overloads ran out of time 5 times on preview, that is 40h of time) as a group and when the trial came to live, we stuck with that group, because we had committed a lot of work into forming it.
We also took the time to write guides on how to beat the trial, for anyone else who wants to give it a try. I won't lie, it won't be easy and you will also fail a lot before you succeed, but it isn't like anything is hidden. You can see how we did it and from there try to replicate our successes.
I thank you all for the work you and everyone has done for the new trial. At the same time, the trial should be removed until the developers can make it so that all dd are on closer footing with the fix they have mentioned. Until that is done the damage dealers in every ToMM runs will be Ranger, Rogue and Wizard as they offer the highest damage potential.
I don't expect Cryptic to do anything with ToMM; however, the game current states makes it unfair for four of the seven damage dealer classes. You know that and even admitted that Cleric DD were bad in ToMM. Its not that Clerics are bad its just that Wizards do to much damage.
No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
LMAO....
They should because it is no fair that classes with a damage dealer role is forced to play as a support role. It is also not fair that these players are now fighting for 4-5 spots in a group vs. the 5-6 spots that is available to damage dealers.
I main a wizard and I feel bad for the other damage dealing classes. It needs to be fair for all classes that can be damage dealers.
The experience in my guild, that I have seen, is that fewer people have been logging in, because they are bored out of their minds with nothing to do except endless ME's all day. "Well, why not try TOMM?" To do TOMM you need very expensive gear even to get to the 24k mark. Is it even possible to get to 24k with only blue/purple insignia, purple companions only, purple mount only, and max rank 13 enchants? Those last few steps to get the legendary mount/insignia/companions/enchants are very very expensive.
But what irritates me the most about how Mod 16/17 shook out, is the apparent blurred lines between the devs and some of the elites. The devs invited a number of elite players to trial test Mod 16, designed basically a brand new game based heavily on their feedback, tuned the damage of TOMM based on their input, and - lo and behold - it's many of those very same elite players who are benefitting the most from this brand new game. We would all scream foul if Asterdahl or some other dev were to use his inside knowledge of the game to play the game and manipulate it for his benefit in-game. And yet there is the appearance of a bunch of mini-Asterdahl's doing the same thing right now in the game. It smells fishy, and the devs should do a better job separating the game players from the game developers.
If they only HAD somebody else to test the game for them. While I agree with some of your points, especially the first part (and you don't only need the IL BUT the stats, otherwise it would be fairly easy to 24k in comparison) I disagree with the second part. Even if you didn't just take closed testing but preview testing into consideration, the players up to test are often vets that have already put so many (in the thousands) of hours into this game that they can and want actively test it. (Especially after so much testing has proven fruitless in the past) The issue is not with the people that did the testing, but it is in my opinion that we all NEEDED those players to test the trial because ... well, who else would've done it? And, there was a point @micky1p00 made: you can still test stuff on preview. Even if you might not have access to all gear that you haven't farmed yet, there is still the possibility to easily max out on stats if you make the effort to find others to test it with. (Altho it sounded easier finding other likeminded ppl than it ever was for me lol) I actually do not mind that those testing and already completing the trial will get more profit out of it. There is no other way they can profit for all the time put into testing.
If I go onto preview, I expect an advantage on live for me, too. Whether its expierence/economy advantage, whatever.
The way people are taking this issues with Tomm to heart was to be expected I guess, but in the end, it will blow over. Even if there are people leaving now, its not because of Tomm or its design of catering only to a certain kind of player, but because of more general issues with the game in the last few mods, I guess. There are other options, the question is just if you can leave all the time spent on NW behind or not. I can see many people waiting on next mod, as always, but hopefully (for NW, too) with more content, as in: Strongholds, Dungeons, PVE, putting the new shiny profession interface to use, implementing recipes that do not completely kill everything people paid for MW for the last months or years ... stuff like that. Better rewards for more time spent on the same old tiring content that gets more demanding/frustrating the longer it takes or the more people don't even know it anymore, because why run RLQ RIQ when you can so easily cap that tiny RAD cap with MEs and WEs on main and an alt and (lol) REQ. No need to ever see Valindra again, I guess. I mean, I can dream...
Of course it's an heated argument cause everybody cares about the game. That could be a positive thing .... right?
- bye bye -
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Whilst I have (admittedly) been a little less graceful in completing the trial than I should have been, none of those of us who have beaten the trial are spamming channels asking for, "exp" players. In fact, when people do do that, we have taken the time to call them out for it every so often, when we see it happen. We have ran with the people we trained with because we spent days worth of time practicing on preview (I think my black ice overloads ran out of time 5 times on preview, that is 40h of time) as a group and when the trial came to live, we stuck with that group, because we had committed a lot of work into forming it.
We also took the time to write guides on how to beat the trial, for anyone else who wants to give it a try. I won't lie, it won't be easy and you will also fail a lot before you succeed, but it isn't like anything is hidden. You can see how we did it and from there try to replicate our successes.
I thank you all for the work you and everyone has done for the new trial. At the same time, the trial should be removed until the developers can make it so that all dd are on closer footing with the fix they have mentioned. Until that is done the damage dealers in every ToMM runs will be Ranger, Rogue and Wizard as they offer the highest damage potential.
I don't expect Cryptic to do anything with ToMM; however, the game current states makes it unfair for four of the seven damage dealer classes. You know that and even admitted that Cleric DD were bad in ToMM. Its not that Clerics are bad its just that Wizards do to much damage.
No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
LMAO....
They should because it is no fair that classes with a damage dealer role is forced to play as a support role. It is also not fair that these players are now fighting for 4-5 spots in a group vs. the 5-6 spots that is available to damage dealers.
I main a wizard and I feel bad for the other damage dealing classes. It needs to be fair for all classes that can be damage dealers.
Unless they had a ~100m ad DpS they were likely not competing for a DpS slot anyhow. The DpS requirement for the trial is very, very high and the tank/healer requirement, not really. Our first completion of the trial on the live server was with a single healer, our tanks are for the most part are literally DpS players who spent barely anything gearing up alts so they could run the trial. 1 of them is running with some R9s equipped. The hardest test for the support, is learning the mechanics, then they have the easiest roles to play in the trial (unless you are solo healing).
And if they did have a toon that cost that much then they can definitely afford to make a support loadout for the trial.
No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
That is just unmitigated BS. My best geared character is an SW. So, if I want to put in the time and effort, experience the many many failures that come with progressing through difficult content, I have to play a healer? A role and accompanying playstyle that I simply do not enjoy. Not even a little bit. So essentially what you are saying is, that it does not matter if I, or anyone in a similar situation, can experience TOMM in a way that I enjoy? Why would I, or anyone, ever do that? This game is supposed to be fun.
But maybe it is only supposed to be fun for a few? I don't buy it. Sure, it's an easy position to take when you are amongst the few, but it's also lazy and a little antisocial. Yeah, sometimes everyone should do things they enjoy less for the good of the team, but having playing-while-miserable be the only way you can participate in something, is a pretty rough deal.
I realize the realities of class balance as they are are not of your making, and were the situation reversed I would have little qualms about using the benefits handed to me either. The fact that you can, I hope, face the challenge of TOMM in a way that is fun to you is a bonus. It certainly does not in any way diminish the accomplishments of managing it. However, the existing imbalance is still something that needs to be addressed.
(..and now we wait for the reductio ad absurdum counters like "what if my idea of fun is being only 10k IL" )
The experience in my guild, that I have seen, is that fewer people have been logging in, because they are bored out of their minds with nothing to do except endless ME's all day. "Well, why not try TOMM?" To do TOMM you need very expensive gear even to get to the 24k mark. Is it even possible to get to 24k with only blue/purple insignia, purple companions only, purple mount only, and max rank 13 enchants? Those last few steps to get the legendary mount/insignia/companions/enchants are very very expensive.
But what irritates me the most about how Mod 16/17 shook out, is the apparent blurred lines between the devs and some of the elites. The devs invited a number of elite players to trial test Mod 16, designed basically a brand new game based heavily on their feedback, tuned the damage of TOMM based on their input, and - lo and behold - it's many of those very same elite players who are benefitting the most from this brand new game. We would all scream foul if Asterdahl or some other dev were to use his inside knowledge of the game to play the game and manipulate it for his benefit in-game. And yet there is the appearance of a bunch of mini-Asterdahl's doing the same thing right now in the game. It smells fishy, and the devs should do a better job separating the game players from the game developers.
If they only HAD somebody else to test the game for them. While I agree with some of your points, especially the first part (and you don't only need the IL BUT the stats, otherwise it would be fairly easy to 24k in comparison) I disagree with the second part. Even if you didn't just take closed testing but preview testing into consideration, the players up to test are often vets that have already put so many (in the thousands) of hours into this game that they can and want actively test it. (Especially after so much testing has proven fruitless in the past) The issue is not with the people that did the testing, but it is in my opinion that we all NEEDED those players to test the trial because ... well, who else would've done it? And, there was a point @micky1p00 made: you can still test stuff on preview. Even if you might not have access to all gear that you haven't farmed yet, there is still the possibility to easily max out on stats if you make the effort to find others to test it with. (Altho it sounded easier finding other likeminded ppl than it ever was for me lol) I actually do not mind that those testing and already completing the trial will get more profit out of it. There is no other way they can profit for all the time put into testing.
If I go onto preview, I expect an advantage on live for me, too. Whether its expierence/economy advantage, whatever.
The way people are taking this issues with Tomm to heart was to be expected I guess, but in the end, it will blow over. Even if there are people leaving now, its not because of Tomm or its design of catering only to a certain kind of player, but because of more general issues with the game in the last few mods, I guess. There are other options, the question is just if you can leave all the time spent on NW behind or not. I can see many people waiting on next mod, as always, but hopefully (for NW, too) with more content, as in: Strongholds, Dungeons, PVE, putting the new shiny profession interface to use, implementing recipes that do not completely kill everything people paid for MW for the last months or years ... stuff like that. Better rewards for more time spent on the same old tiring content that gets more demanding/frustrating the longer it takes or the more people don't even know it anymore, because why run RLQ RIQ when you can so easily cap that tiny RAD cap with MEs and WEs on main and an alt and (lol) REQ. No need to ever see Valindra again, I guess. I mean, I can dream...
Of course it's an heated argument cause everybody cares about the game. That could be a positive thing .... right?
From my understanding, the trial testers didn't just go to preview server and mess around. They actually had private communications with the devs giving them their feedback on how to adjust the content.
I can go to preview all I want and test a bunch of stuff, that is what I've actually done, that is how I was able to determine that the Mod 13/14 hunt gear really is superior, damage-wise, to the Mod 16/17 higher-stat gear. But, I don't have personal access to Asterdahl, the way that the trial testers did. That's the difference.
The line between dev and player is being blurred, and IMO there ought to be a more clear division between the two.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The experience in my guild, that I have seen, is that fewer people have been logging in, because they are bored out of their minds with nothing to do except endless ME's all day. "Well, why not try TOMM?" To do TOMM you need very expensive gear even to get to the 24k mark. Is it even possible to get to 24k with only blue/purple insignia, purple companions only, purple mount only, and max rank 13 enchants? Those last few steps to get the legendary mount/insignia/companions/enchants are very very expensive.
But what irritates me the most about how Mod 16/17 shook out, is the apparent blurred lines between the devs and some of the elites. The devs invited a number of elite players to trial test Mod 16, designed basically a brand new game based heavily on their feedback, tuned the damage of TOMM based on their input, and - lo and behold - it's many of those very same elite players who are benefitting the most from this brand new game. We would all scream foul if Asterdahl or some other dev were to use his inside knowledge of the game to play the game and manipulate it for his benefit in-game. And yet there is the appearance of a bunch of mini-Asterdahl's doing the same thing right now in the game. It smells fishy, and the devs should do a better job separating the game players from the game developers.
Lets count, by names who are those many players, out of the 20 finished, and the more that trying, who were privately invited? And lets hear since when preview is closed to anyone on PC?
I want to clarify that I understand ppl gather their own groups according to their own criteria. I'm not bothered by this. I run with my friends list except when i need a random dps or something. I'm also not saying that ppl who tested on preview haven't disbursed info to the masses in videos,chats,etc. I was trying to point out that even if some help the rest of us who haven't the time to spend on preview, there are some who use the knowledge to gain an upper hand either to clear content or boost ad making ability. I agree that some classes are too strong atm. It forced me to play my cw even though i hate the play style bc my lock is almost useless even when well geared. But i have heard that some testers in the last closed beta before mod 16 used knowledge to stock up on companions and other items to make a huge profit when the mod came live. Its that kind of thing that bothers me. I guess i wish video games didn't mirror real life in this regard. It seems like there is no equal playing field to start. So in some cases, no matter how one tries, they will never catch up bc they lack the insider info.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
That is just unmitigated BS. My best geared character is an SW. So, if I want to put in the time and effort, experience the many many failures that come with progressing through difficult content, I have to play a healer? A role and accompanying playstyle that I simply do not enjoy. Not even a little bit. So essentially what you are saying is, that it does not matter if I, or anyone in a similar situation, can experience TOMM in a way that I enjoy? Why would I, or anyone, ever do that? This game is supposed to be fun.
But maybe it is only supposed to be fun for a few? I don't buy it. Sure, it's an easy position to take when you are amongst the few, but it's also lazy and a little antisocial. Yeah, sometimes everyone should do things they enjoy less for the good of the team, but having playing-while-miserable be the only way you can participate in something, is a pretty rough deal.
I realize the realities of class balance as they are are not of your making, and were the situation reversed I would have little qualms about using the benefits handed to me either. The fact that you can, I hope, face the challenge of TOMM in a way that is fun to you is a bonus. It certainly does not in any way diminish the accomplishments of managing it. However, the existing imbalance is still something that needs to be addressed.
(..and now we wait for the reductio ad absurdum counters like "what if my idea of fun is being only 10k IL" )
No, my argument is quite clear. It is enough that every class has at least 1 viable role when releasing the trial. I have said, multiple times throughout this thread, that it would be nice if the other roles of the classes were viable, but that them not being viable is not a sufficient reason to delay the addition of new content. If Archery HR is not viable in the new trial (which it isn't) you do not delay the entire trial to accommodate Archery HR. You do not expect every single build on every single class to be viable, but so long as the class itself is viable, there is reason enough to proceed with releasing the trial.
Difficult content is, by its very nature exclusionary. Not everyone is going to be able to do it and not every build will be able to finish. Whilst by nature, if you are someone excluded because of choices you made you feel left out, there are also other choices you can make to get yourself included. Even though it would have been preferable for every role on every class to be viable within the trial, I consider exclusion based on play style preference to not be an invalid grounds to exclude people.
The attitude of, "if I can't have it no one can," is just jealousy and that is it. Yes, it is not nice to be left out, but we all get left out of something at some point. If they delayed the trial for every single request like this, it would never be released. How about instead of trying to take stuff away from the those who can, constructively suggest changes to your class, or take the (offered) advice and build another role.
The experience in my guild, that I have seen, is that fewer people have been logging in, because they are bored out of their minds with nothing to do except endless ME's all day. "Well, why not try TOMM?" To do TOMM you need very expensive gear even to get to the 24k mark. Is it even possible to get to 24k with only blue/purple insignia, purple companions only, purple mount only, and max rank 13 enchants? Those last few steps to get the legendary mount/insignia/companions/enchants are very very expensive.
But what irritates me the most about how Mod 16/17 shook out, is the apparent blurred lines between the devs and some of the elites. The devs invited a number of elite players to trial test Mod 16, designed basically a brand new game based heavily on their feedback, tuned the damage of TOMM based on their input, and - lo and behold - it's many of those very same elite players who are benefitting the most from this brand new game. We would all scream foul if Asterdahl or some other dev were to use his inside knowledge of the game to play the game and manipulate it for his benefit in-game. And yet there is the appearance of a bunch of mini-Asterdahl's doing the same thing right now in the game. It smells fishy, and the devs should do a better job separating the game players from the game developers.
If they only HAD somebody else to test the game for them. While I agree with some of your points, especially the first part (and you don't only need the IL BUT the stats, otherwise it would be fairly easy to 24k in comparison) I disagree with the second part. Even if you didn't just take closed testing but preview testing into consideration, the players up to test are often vets that have already put so many (in the thousands) of hours into this game that they can and want actively test it. (Especially after so much testing has proven fruitless in the past) The issue is not with the people that did the testing, but it is in my opinion that we all NEEDED those players to test the trial because ... well, who else would've done it? And, there was a point @micky1p00 made: you can still test stuff on preview. Even if you might not have access to all gear that you haven't farmed yet, there is still the possibility to easily max out on stats if you make the effort to find others to test it with. (Altho it sounded easier finding other likeminded ppl than it ever was for me lol) I actually do not mind that those testing and already completing the trial will get more profit out of it. There is no other way they can profit for all the time put into testing.
If I go onto preview, I expect an advantage on live for me, too. Whether its expierence/economy advantage, whatever.
The way people are taking this issues with Tomm to heart was to be expected I guess, but in the end, it will blow over. Even if there are people leaving now, its not because of Tomm or its design of catering only to a certain kind of player, but because of more general issues with the game in the last few mods, I guess. There are other options, the question is just if you can leave all the time spent on NW behind or not. I can see many people waiting on next mod, as always, but hopefully (for NW, too) with more content, as in: Strongholds, Dungeons, PVE, putting the new shiny profession interface to use, implementing recipes that do not completely kill everything people paid for MW for the last months or years ... stuff like that. Better rewards for more time spent on the same old tiring content that gets more demanding/frustrating the longer it takes or the more people don't even know it anymore, because why run RLQ RIQ when you can so easily cap that tiny RAD cap with MEs and WEs on main and an alt and (lol) REQ. No need to ever see Valindra again, I guess. I mean, I can dream...
Of course it's an heated argument cause everybody cares about the game. That could be a positive thing .... right?
From my understanding, the trial testers didn't just go to preview server and mess around. They actually had private communications with the devs giving them their feedback on how to adjust the content.
I can go to preview all I want and test a bunch of stuff, that is what I've actually done, that is how I was able to determine that the Mod 13/14 hunt gear really is superior, damage-wise, to the Mod 16/17 higher-stat gear. But, I don't have personal access to Asterdahl, the way that the trial testers did. That's the difference.
The line between dev and player is being blurred, and IMO there ought to be a more clear division between the two.
You were free to form a group, go to the test, and use exactly the same communication channels.. Nothing less nothing more.. There was also help offered with gear and any items players wanted to help them, posted in public.
Regardless of any feedback, any changes were also public, and anyone could train the month or preview to get the same advantage and the same communication
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I want to clarify that I understand ppl gather their own groups according to their own criteria. I'm not bothered by this. I run with my friends list except when i need a random dps or something. I'm also not saying that ppl who tested on preview haven't disbursed info to the masses in videos,chats,etc. I was trying to point out that even if some help the rest of us who haven't the time to spend on preview, there are some who use the knowledge to gain an upper hand either to clear content or boost ad making ability. I agree that some classes are too strong atm. It forced me to play my cw even though i hate the play style bc my lock is almost useless even when well geared. But i have heard that some testers in the last closed beta before mod 16 used knowledge to stock up on companions and other items to make a huge profit when the mod came live. Its that kind of thing that bothers me. I guess i wish video games didn't mirror real life in this regard. It seems like there is no equal playing field to start. So in some cases, no matter how one tries, they will never catch up bc they lack the insider info.
I will stay out of m16 companions, this is not the case here, nor the topic. In this case, everything was available to everyone, those that put the work on preview, now benefit as first.
This is the same with many thing, you invest work/effort/time, you get ahead of those that didn't. Or should people be reworded the same regardless of effort or investment put in?
There is no insider information, more so in this case, every mechanics was listed long before it went live. No hidden synergy, no secret Xuna companions, all there..
> @thefabricant said: > (Quote) > No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
See this is where I will disagree with you. It has already been stated by the devs that all dps classes should be within range of each other in overall damge. That is not the case right now, and you know it.
Telling a Cleric, warlock, barbie sorry go with the other paragon because that is only way you are useful in the trial is wrong. What gives you the right to tell that Cleric go healer or you don't get in the trial, when that person chooses to run as an dps? The unbalanced classes isn't your fault, but stop with the you must go support because only the wizard,rogue, hr should be top dps.
Can Tomm be completed with those classes (dc,warlock,fighter,barbie) as the 6 dps toons? If no, then that should tell you something is wrong
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arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
Every class has the option to join ToMM and the tools to complete the trial. Just because it doesn't fit your play style, does not mean your class is completely incapable or that you are somehow missing out. And yes, there does need to be a balance pass, EVERYONE agrees with this. But since every class CAN get into ToMM and complete it, the trial should not be taken out. I am saying this as an Arbiter main.
> @arazith07 said: > Every class has the option to join ToMM and the tools to complete the trial. Just because it doesn't fit your play style, does not mean your class is completely incapable or that you are somehow missing out. And yes, there does need to be a balance pass, EVERYONE agrees with this. But since every class CAN get into ToMM and complete it, the trial should not be taken out. I am saying this as an Arbiter main.
I have never stated it should be removed until balance issues are fixed as someone else has suggested. And while every class can get into Tomm if they meet il levels, the classes I listed couldn't beat it as the dps. That is an issue.
The only 2 things I would have liked to have seen differently is that the gear was BTA. Reason being: you wanted hard content meant specifically for you, you got that. The gear should have been your cherry on top to showoff as the people who beat it. Not make a massive profit off the sale of the gear.
The other thing would have been a nTomm and mTomm as this would have giving others that dont qualify to at least have something to attempt, otherwise this mod offers them very little.
Just like end gamers hated mod 15 because it offered them nothing, how do you think those that aren't end game feeling.for this mod?
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arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
> Every class has the option to join ToMM and the tools to complete the trial. Just because it doesn't fit your play style, does not mean your class is completely incapable or that you are somehow missing out. And yes, there does need to be a balance pass, EVERYONE agrees with this. But since every class CAN get into ToMM and complete it, the trial should not be taken out. I am saying this as an Arbiter main.
I have never stated it should be removed until balance issues are fixed as someone else has suggested. And while every class can get into Tomm if they meet il levels, the classes I listed couldn't beat it as the dps. That is an issue.
The only 2 things I would have liked to have seen differently is that the gear was BTA. Reason being: you wanted hard content meant specifically for you, you got that. The gear should have been your cherry on top to showoff as the people who beat it. Not make a massive profit off the sale of the gear.
The other thing would have been a nTomm and mTomm as this would have giving others that dont qualify to at least have something to attempt, otherwise this mod offers them very little.
Just like end gamers hated mod 15 because it offered them nothing, how do you think those that aren't end game feeling.for this mod?
So you are taking the words of others out of context then?
Whilst I have (admittedly) been a little less graceful in completing the trial than I should have been, none of those of us who have beaten the trial are spamming channels asking for, "exp" players. In fact, when people do do that, we have taken the time to call them out for it every so often, when we see it happen. We have ran with the people we trained with because we spent days worth of time practicing on preview (I think my black ice overloads ran out of time 5 times on preview, that is 40h of time) as a group and when the trial came to live, we stuck with that group, because we had committed a lot of work into forming it.
We also took the time to write guides on how to beat the trial, for anyone else who wants to give it a try. I won't lie, it won't be easy and you will also fail a lot before you succeed, but it isn't like anything is hidden. You can see how we did it and from there try to replicate our successes.
I thank you all for the work you and everyone has done for the new trial. At the same time, the trial should be removed until the developers can make it so that all dd are on closer footing with the fix they have mentioned. Until that is done the damage dealers in every ToMM runs will be Ranger, Rogue and Wizard as they offer the highest damage potential.
I don't expect Cryptic to do anything with ToMM; however, the game current states makes it unfair for four of the seven damage dealer classes. You know that and even admitted that Cleric DD were bad in ToMM. Its not that Clerics are bad its just that Wizards do to much damage.
No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
This was in reference to someone asking for ToMM to be removed until class balance is fixed. It had nothing to do with the question of damage paragons not being balanced, which again everyone is in agreement on.
Changes take time, especially when the most recent major rework went live a short 4 months ago. Just this month they put in more data collection stuff so they can better work on the disparity between classes. Things don't happen overnight, especially with the size of the team working on Neverwinter.
Maybe I am taking his words out of context, maybe not. Seeing the comment of " that is good enough" comes across as if you are a dc, barbie, etc run your support paragon otherwise too bad wait till they fix your class.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Maybe I am taking his words out of context, maybe not. Seeing the comment of " that is good enough" comes across as if you are a dc, barbie, etc run your support paragon otherwise too bad wait till they fix your class.
I have already stated, further up in response to someone else that the context is, "they should not remove tomm just because of the class problem." There is no disagreement about there being a class problem, just that the correct action is not removing tomm.
No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
That is just unmitigated BS. ---bla bla snipped---
No, my argument is quite clear. It is enough that every class has at least 1 viable role when releasing the trial. I have said, multiple times throughout this thread, that it would be nice if the other roles of the classes were viable, but that them not being viable is not a sufficient reason to delay the addition of new content. If Archery HR is not viable in the new trial (which it isn't) you do not delay the entire trial to accommodate Archery HR. You do not expect every single build on every single class to be viable, but so long as the class itself is viable, there is reason enough to proceed with releasing the trial.
Difficult content is, by its very nature exclusionary. Not everyone is going to be able to do it and not every build will be able to finish. Whilst by nature, if you are someone excluded because of choices you made you feel left out, there are also other choices you can make to get yourself included. Even though it would have been preferable for every role on every class to be viable within the trial, I consider exclusion based on play style preference to not be an invalid grounds to exclude people.
The attitude of, "if I can't have it no one can," is just jealousy and that is it. Yes, it is not nice to be left out, but we all get left out of something at some point. If they delayed the trial for every single request like this, it would never be released. How about instead of trying to take stuff away from the those who can, constructively suggest changes to your class, or take the (offered) advice and build another role.
I am sorry, I pressed send to quickly (had a D&D session to DM) and thus forgot an entire section that would have covered the following:
I agree with you that the state of balance is no reason to delay the content. I have zero expectation of everything being always in my favor and am fine with a period of sucking it up.. after all, have played my warlock through all the previous dark times .
The content however does provides a HUGE reason to address the balance issues and the current state is certainly not "good enough". I would go as far as to say that your good enough there is awful close to "in a good place" And I do feel that this should be fixed ASAP. Any class/role combo should be viable in that content (given compatible skill gear and level of investment). But again, I certainly do not feel the fact that that is not the case yet is a disqualifier for the content. It may however be a disqualifier for the state of the game...
As for choices and consequences, sure, but its not quite that simple here. Had I chosen ineffective powers, feats, a bad rotation, sub-par companions or was plain to lazy to put in the time.. I would agree. But to be excluded based on something you have zero influence on, or be forced to play in a way that disgusts you (yeah I do feel that strongly about healing.. yech!). It sucks. And I feel I have a right to express that fact, but if it seems I mean to say that because it sucks for me it should suck for everyone else. That is certainly not my intent.
bottom line for me is simple.. if I can't have it yet, fine, I can wait, more power to those that can, but if I am to be forever excluded or forced into misery.. that is not ok. Oh and don't badmouth jealousy, its one of the drivers of change for the whole of humanity. Righteous indignation shapes the world..
Anyway, I did not mean lose so much of your line's context, yet that is what I ended up doing by rushing. So apologies
The first point I want to make is that ToMM is to easy; it needs to be adjusted to be harder. The fact that player are able to beat it early in its release as a hard/challenging trial tells me that the developers need to up it a bit more. We shouldn't be able to beat it yet. It should take gear from mod 18 to beat it. Maybe one group beats it one time or two but not 20 runs now on live. That to me tells me the difficulty still needs to be upped a bit.
Next, I want to discuss the issue of roles, not classes. In 10 man content you typically get 2 healers, 2 tanks and 6 damage dealers. If groups are able to beat it with one healer, as sharp pointed out, that means the group is damage dealer heavy and with the current imbalance for classes it causes further issues for player who don't play one of the top damage dealing classes. This goes back to my first point the content is to easy as it can be beaten with one healer. Therefore the content should be adjusted to ensure groups are taking 2 healers. In fact, I believe the hardest trial should require 3 healers and 3 tanks but that is something we discuss another time.
As for the non top damage dealing classes being able to play as a support role, see my point on roles where group can already complete the new trial with one healer and that most group makeup is 2 healer, 2 tanks and 6 damage dealers. The standard group makeup should have room for the any of the damage dealer class and all class should have the capability to produce similar damage given that there are more damage dealer spots do to mod 16 changes for group composition.
IMO, if the wizard, rogue and ranger all produce damage similar to a cleric, fighter or barbarian I believe that there would be less completed ToMM runs and some player would be asking for damage buffs because someone already did in the post where the developers stated that warlock, wizard, rogue and ranger were all over producing and needed to be fixed.
With all of this said I'm firm in belief that ToMM should be removed until the devs can fix the classes a bit; at least the underlining issue that is making Cleric, Fighter and Barbarian under perform. As for the warlock, that class needs some buffs.
I play an end game wizard that can easily get into ToMM but I wont' step foot into ToMM until its fair for all end game damage dealers.
Maybe I am taking his words out of context, maybe not. Seeing the comment of " that is good enough" comes across as if you are a dc, barbie, etc run your support paragon otherwise too bad wait till they fix your class.
I have already stated, further up in response to someone else that the context is, "they should not remove tomm just because of the class problem." There is no disagreement about there being a class problem, just that the correct action is not removing tomm.
It is not a class problem but a code problem of how damage is calculated that is benefiting 4 classes: Rogue, Wizard, Rangers and Warlocks(sorry I threw Warlocks in here I know you are struggling and need everything to get decent damage out). IMO, players using these classes in ToMM should be banned as they are abusing a known issue to beat content and earn AD, similar to the hunt exploit.
Another solution is the devs lower Wizard, Rogue and Ranger base damage by 25% to make it closer to the other classes until the devs can fix the damage calculation for all classes.
I don't think the devs will do anything and players will find ways to beat it.
I'm sticking to my guns on not playing it; even though I probably would love the trial as I love over challenging difficult content that requires team work.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I'll suggest this novel idea, if someone want to suggest to make it harder, please beat it at least once first.
The experience in my guild, that I have seen, is that fewer people have been logging in, because they are bored out of their minds with nothing to do except endless ME's all day. "Well, why not try TOMM?" To do TOMM you need very expensive gear even to get to the 24k mark. Is it even possible to get to 24k with only blue/purple insignia, purple companions only, purple mount only, and max rank 13 enchants? Those last few steps to get the legendary mount/insignia/companions/enchants are very very expensive.
But what irritates me the most about how Mod 16/17 shook out, is the apparent blurred lines between the devs and some of the elites. The devs invited a number of elite players to trial test Mod 16, designed basically a brand new game based heavily on their feedback, tuned the damage of TOMM based on their input, and - lo and behold - it's many of those very same elite players who are benefitting the most from this brand new game. We would all scream foul if Asterdahl or some other dev were to use his inside knowledge of the game to play the game and manipulate it for his benefit in-game. And yet there is the appearance of a bunch of mini-Asterdahl's doing the same thing right now in the game. It smells fishy, and the devs should do a better job separating the game players from the game developers.
Lets count, by names who are those many players, out of the 20 finished, and the more that trying, who were privately invited? And lets hear since when preview is closed to anyone on PC?
I am referring to the Mod 16 trial testers.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I would agree. But to be excluded based on something you have zero influence on, or be forced to play in a way that disgusts you (yeah I do feel that strongly about healing.. yech!). It sucks. And I feel I have a right to express that fact, but if it seems I mean to say that because it sucks for me it should suck for everyone else. That is certainly not my intent.
bottom line for me is simple.. if I can't have it yet, fine, I can wait, more power to those that can, but if I am to be forever excluded or forced into misery.. that is not ok. Oh and don't badmouth jealousy, its one of the drivers of change for the whole of humanity. Righteous indignation shapes the world..
Anyway, I did not mean lose so much of your line's context, yet that is what I ended up doing by rushing. So apologies
I would say that the devs could, and should, do more rapid, and small adjustment. While not greatest help to DPS cleric, but imo greater care should be given to the main role the class had prior to mod 16, which is the expected role most played with, like DPS for GWF, DPS for SW, Tanking for GF (that does work, but example for what I mean). Ofc, if not everything then at least those, because this is what people (again most) played and geared for usually.
I would ofc love to see a more rapid and better class changed to everything needed.
Also the notion of X, Y ,Z class is not viable, I'm not sure it's right, there is discrepancy, and it should be fixed ASAP. but can a mix of classes succeed. IMO the question will be, can they get it with almost no deaths... This makes it much lower margin of error, way higher debuff synergy and investment in specific artifacts and what not, but perhaps it is possible (I don't know for sure, didn't see anyone succeed, but I have feeling that it is)
No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
That is just unmitigated BS. My best geared character is an SW. So, if I want to put in the time and effort, experience the many many failures that come with progressing through difficult content, I have to play a healer? A role and accompanying playstyle that I simply do not enjoy. Not even a little bit. So essentially what you are saying is, that it does not matter if I, or anyone in a similar situation, can experience TOMM in a way that I enjoy? Why would I, or anyone, ever do that? This game is supposed to be fun.
But maybe it is only supposed to be fun for a few? I don't buy it. Sure, it's an easy position to take when you are amongst the few, but it's also lazy and a little antisocial. Yeah, sometimes everyone should do things they enjoy less for the good of the team, but having playing-while-miserable be the only way you can participate in something, is a pretty rough deal.
I realize the realities of class balance as they are are not of your making, and were the situation reversed I would have little qualms about using the benefits handed to me either. The fact that you can, I hope, face the challenge of TOMM in a way that is fun to you is a bonus. It certainly does not in any way diminish the accomplishments of managing it. However, the existing imbalance is still something that needs to be addressed.
(..and now we wait for the reductio ad absurdum counters like "what if my idea of fun is being only 10k IL" )
No, my argument is quite clear. It is enough that every class has at least 1 viable role when releasing the trial. I have said, multiple times throughout this thread, that it would be nice if the other roles of the classes were viable, but that them not being viable is not a sufficient reason to delay the addition of new content. If Archery HR is not viable in the new trial (which it isn't) you do not delay the entire trial to accommodate Archery HR. You do not expect every single build on every single class to be viable, but so long as the class itself is viable, there is reason enough to proceed with releasing the trial.
Difficult content is, by its very nature exclusionary. Not everyone is going to be able to do it and not every build will be able to finish. Whilst by nature, if you are someone excluded because of choices you made you feel left out, there are also other choices you can make to get yourself included. Even though it would have been preferable for every role on every class to be viable within the trial, I consider exclusion based on play style preference to not be an invalid grounds to exclude people.
The attitude of, "if I can't have it no one can," is just jealousy and that is it. Yes, it is not nice to be left out, but we all get left out of something at some point. If they delayed the trial for every single request like this, it would never be released. How about instead of trying to take stuff away from the those who can, constructively suggest changes to your class, or take the (offered) advice and build another role.
In other words, if Barbies want to go into TOMM, they have to go as a Sentinel Tank. Too bad for you that you spent all that AD on DPS companions! Guess you'll now have to spend a lot of AD on tanking companions. Oh they had better be at legendary too, otherwise you aren't going to make 24k IL.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
The experience in my guild, that I have seen, is that fewer people have been logging in, because they are bored out of their minds with nothing to do except endless ME's all day. "Well, why not try TOMM?" To do TOMM you need very expensive gear even to get to the 24k mark. Is it even possible to get to 24k with only blue/purple insignia, purple companions only, purple mount only, and max rank 13 enchants? Those last few steps to get the legendary mount/insignia/companions/enchants are very very expensive.
But what irritates me the most about how Mod 16/17 shook out, is the apparent blurred lines between the devs and some of the elites. The devs invited a number of elite players to trial test Mod 16, designed basically a brand new game based heavily on their feedback, tuned the damage of TOMM based on their input, and - lo and behold - it's many of those very same elite players who are benefitting the most from this brand new game. We would all scream foul if Asterdahl or some other dev were to use his inside knowledge of the game to play the game and manipulate it for his benefit in-game. And yet there is the appearance of a bunch of mini-Asterdahl's doing the same thing right now in the game. It smells fishy, and the devs should do a better job separating the game players from the game developers.
Lets count, by names who are those many players, out of the 20 finished, and the more that trying, who were privately invited? And lets hear since when preview is closed to anyone on PC?
I am referring to the Mod 16 trial testers.
What mod16 trial testers...There was no trial, and what special communication was there? You can read all about the great communication there... Also again, not the same people, not on players side (mod16 and mod17, different test group except 2? people), not the same devs who responsible for the closed beta on both mods.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Maybe I am taking his words out of context, maybe not. Seeing the comment of " that is good enough" comes across as if you are a dc, barbie, etc run your support paragon otherwise too bad wait till they fix your class.
I have already stated, further up in response to someone else that the context is, "they should not remove tomm just because of the class problem." There is no disagreement about there being a class problem, just that the correct action is not removing tomm.
It is not a class problem but a code problem of how damage is calculated that is benefiting 4 classes: Rogue, Wizard, Rangers and Warlocks(sorry I threw Warlocks in here I know you are struggling and need everything to get decent damage out). IMO, players using these classes in ToMM should be banned as they are abusing a known issue to beat content and earn AD, similar to the hunt exploit.
Another solution is the devs lower Wizard, Rogue and Ranger base damage by 25% to make it closer to the other classes until the devs can fix the damage calculation for all classes.
I don't think the devs will do anything and players will find ways to beat it.
I'm sticking to my guns on not playing it; even though I probably would love the trial as I love over challenging difficult content that requires team work.
1. Holding on not playing it? You are on console... what beating it? What playing it.... What commenting on difficulty..
2. Do you even understand the damage calculation.. No words can describe waht I want to write now..
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
But what irritates me the most about how Mod 16/17 shook out, is the apparent blurred lines between the devs and some of the elites. The devs invited a number of elite players to trial test Mod 16, designed basically a brand new game based heavily on their feedback, tuned the damage of TOMM based on their input, and - lo and behold - it's many of those very same elite players who are benefitting the most from this brand new game. We would all scream foul if Asterdahl or some other dev were to use his inside knowledge of the game to play the game and manipulate it for his benefit in-game. And yet there is the appearance of a bunch of mini-Asterdahl's doing the same thing right now in the game. It smells fishy, and the devs should do a better job separating the game players from the game developers.
Where is this nonsense comes from? If only someone could sue you for defamation and libel.... Spreading BS, with 0 knowledge.
"Heavily on their feedback"..
I'll just quote a beginning of an idiom
"Better to remain silent and be thought a ...."
In hopes that people start thinking before they type, and think even more careful on what they base what they type, on some vivid imagination, the blame they usually want to attribute to people, their own personal hate or actual objective facts.
Whilst I have (admittedly) been a little less graceful in completing the trial than I should have been, none of those of us who have beaten the trial are spamming channels asking for, "exp" players. In fact, when people do do that, we have taken the time to call them out for it every so often, when we see it happen. We have ran with the people we trained with because we spent days worth of time practicing on preview (I think my black ice overloads ran out of time 5 times on preview, that is 40h of time) as a group and when the trial came to live, we stuck with that group, because we had committed a lot of work into forming it.
We also took the time to write guides on how to beat the trial, for anyone else who wants to give it a try. I won't lie, it won't be easy and you will also fail a lot before you succeed, but it isn't like anything is hidden. You can see how we did it and from there try to replicate our successes.
I thank you all for the work you and everyone has done for the new trial. At the same time, the trial should be removed until the developers can make it so that all dd are on closer footing with the fix they have mentioned. Until that is done the damage dealers in every ToMM runs will be Ranger, Rogue and Wizard as they offer the highest damage potential.
I don't expect Cryptic to do anything with ToMM; however, the game current states makes it unfair for four of the seven damage dealer classes. You know that and even admitted that Cleric DD were bad in ToMM. Its not that Clerics are bad its just that Wizards do to much damage.
No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
LMAO....
They should because it is no fair that classes with a damage dealer role is forced to play as a support role. It is also not fair that these players are now fighting for 4-5 spots in a group vs. the 5-6 spots that is available to damage dealers.
I main a wizard and I feel bad for the other damage dealing classes. It needs to be fair for all classes that can be damage dealers.
Unless they had a ~100m ad DpS they were likely not competing for a DpS slot anyhow. The DpS requirement for the trial is very, very high and the tank/healer requirement, not really. Our first completion of the trial on the live server was with a single healer, our tanks are for the most part are literally DpS players who spent barely anything gearing up alts so they could run the trial. 1 of them is running with some R9s equipped. The hardest test for the support, is learning the mechanics, then they have the easiest roles to play in the trial (unless you are solo healing).
And if they did have a toon that cost that much then they can definitely afford to make a support loadout for the trial.
different on xbox (not sure about ps4) stuff is significantly cheaper and if you farmed your insignias those were basically free. all the significant cost was in the greens. I know I didn't spend 100 mil or close to it and I have everything but the alpha. I basically built everything myself, insignias, bondings runes etc. still and investment on what you kept instead of sold. but I'd guess over all it's probably more like 35 mil to 50 mil on xbox especially if you're not making/farming stuff yourself. the biggest expense is probably getting req pets to leg. Still not cheap though. (assuming you don't absolutely NEED the alpha lol)
hmmm. ok I just did the math on the current costs of some of the additional things you need without the basics just buying and I was wrong. but I think you might be wrong too. I'm going to guess it's even more expensive than 100 mil on pc.
if you bought
bark 4.2 empowered 15 10.8 bonding 15 4.8 leg mount (Generic) 6 rad 15 x 12 19.2 tactical 15 11 vorp 14 5.6 dom insignia 12 brut insignia lots more depending on which they are selling for about 3.5 mil on xbox each. were cheaper if you made yourself during event..
just adding up those things not including other things is 81 mil so yeah. significant. I never even knew i had so much lol
The experience in my guild, that I have seen, is that fewer people have been logging in, because they are bored out of their minds with nothing to do except endless ME's all day. "Well, why not try TOMM?" To do TOMM you need very expensive gear even to get to the 24k mark. Is it even possible to get to 24k with only blue/purple insignia, purple companions only, purple mount only, and max rank 13 enchants? Those last few steps to get the legendary mount/insignia/companions/enchants are very very expensive.
But what irritates me the most about how Mod 16/17 shook out, is the apparent blurred lines between the devs and some of the elites. The devs invited a number of elite players to trial test Mod 16, designed basically a brand new game based heavily on their feedback, tuned the damage of TOMM based on their input, and - lo and behold - it's many of those very same elite players who are benefitting the most from this brand new game. We would all scream foul if Asterdahl or some other dev were to use his inside knowledge of the game to play the game and manipulate it for his benefit in-game. And yet there is the appearance of a bunch of mini-Asterdahl's doing the same thing right now in the game. It smells fishy, and the devs should do a better job separating the game players from the game developers.
Lets count, by names who are those many players, out of the 20 finished, and the more that trying, who were privately invited? And lets hear since when preview is closed to anyone on PC?
I am referring to the Mod 16 trial testers.
What mod16 trial testers...There was no trial, and what special communication was there? You can read all about the great communication there... Also again, not the same people, not on players side (mod16 and mod17, different test group except 2? people), not the same devs who responsible for the closed beta on both mods.
Fine, the beta testers if you wish.
And I didn't even know until now that there was a secret mod17 group too. Gee, what a surprise.
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But what irritates me the most about how Mod 16/17 shook out, is the apparent blurred lines between the devs and some of the elites. The devs invited a number of elite players to trial test Mod 16, designed basically a brand new game based heavily on their feedback, tuned the damage of TOMM based on their input, and - lo and behold - it's many of those very same elite players who are benefitting the most from this brand new game. We would all scream foul if Asterdahl or some other dev were to use his inside knowledge of the game to play the game and manipulate it for his benefit in-game. And yet there is the appearance of a bunch of mini-Asterdahl's doing the same thing right now in the game. It smells fishy, and the devs should do a better job separating the game players from the game developers.
They should because it is no fair that classes with a damage dealer role is forced to play as a support role. It is also not fair that these players are now fighting for 4-5 spots in a group vs. the 5-6 spots that is available to damage dealers.
I main a wizard and I feel bad for the other damage dealing classes. It needs to be fair for all classes that can be damage dealers.
While I agree with some of your points, especially the first part (and you don't only need the IL BUT the stats, otherwise it would be fairly easy to 24k in comparison) I disagree with the second part.
Even if you didn't just take closed testing but preview testing into consideration, the players up to test are often vets that have already put so many (in the thousands) of hours into this game that they can and want actively test it. (Especially after so much testing has proven fruitless in the past)
The issue is not with the people that did the testing, but it is in my opinion that we all NEEDED those players to test the trial because ... well, who else would've done it?
And, there was a point @micky1p00 made: you can still test stuff on preview. Even if you might not have access to all gear that you haven't farmed yet, there is still the possibility to easily max out on stats if you make the effort to find others to test it with. (Altho it sounded easier finding other likeminded ppl than it ever was for me lol)
I actually do not mind that those testing and already completing the trial will get more profit out of it. There is no other way they can profit for all the time put into testing.
If I go onto preview, I expect an advantage on live for me, too. Whether its expierence/economy advantage, whatever.
The way people are taking this issues with Tomm to heart was to be expected I guess, but in the end, it will blow over. Even if there are people leaving now, its not because of Tomm or its design of catering only to a certain kind of player, but because of more general issues with the game in the last few mods, I guess.
There are other options, the question is just if you can leave all the time spent on NW behind or not.
I can see many people waiting on next mod, as always, but hopefully (for NW, too) with more content, as in: Strongholds, Dungeons, PVE, putting the new shiny profession interface to use, implementing recipes that do not completely kill everything people paid for MW for the last months or years ... stuff like that. Better rewards for more time spent on the same old tiring content that gets more demanding/frustrating the longer it takes or the more people don't even know it anymore, because why run RLQ RIQ when you can so easily cap that tiny RAD cap with MEs and WEs on main and an alt and (lol) REQ. No need to ever see Valindra again, I guess.
I mean, I can dream...
Of course it's an heated argument cause everybody cares about the game. That could be a positive thing .... right?
And if they did have a toon that cost that much then they can definitely afford to make a support loadout for the trial.
But maybe it is only supposed to be fun for a few? I don't buy it. Sure, it's an easy position to take when you are amongst the few, but it's also lazy and a little antisocial. Yeah, sometimes everyone should do things they enjoy less for the good of the team, but having playing-while-miserable be the only way you can participate in something, is a pretty rough deal.
I realize the realities of class balance as they are are not of your making, and were the situation reversed I would have little qualms about using the benefits handed to me either. The fact that you can, I hope, face the challenge of TOMM in a way that is fun to you is a bonus. It certainly does not in any way diminish the accomplishments of managing it. However, the existing imbalance is still something that needs to be addressed.
(..and now we wait for the reductio ad absurdum counters like "what if my idea of fun is being only 10k IL"
I can go to preview all I want and test a bunch of stuff, that is what I've actually done, that is how I was able to determine that the Mod 13/14 hunt gear really is superior, damage-wise, to the Mod 16/17 higher-stat gear. But, I don't have personal access to Asterdahl, the way that the trial testers did. That's the difference.
The line between dev and player is being blurred, and IMO there ought to be a more clear division between the two.
Difficult content is, by its very nature exclusionary. Not everyone is going to be able to do it and not every build will be able to finish. Whilst by nature, if you are someone excluded because of choices you made you feel left out, there are also other choices you can make to get yourself included. Even though it would have been preferable for every role on every class to be viable within the trial, I consider exclusion based on play style preference to not be an invalid grounds to exclude people.
The attitude of, "if I can't have it no one can," is just jealousy and that is it. Yes, it is not nice to be left out, but we all get left out of something at some point. If they delayed the trial for every single request like this, it would never be released. How about instead of trying to take stuff away from the those who can, constructively suggest changes to your class, or take the (offered) advice and build another role.
There was also help offered with gear and any items players wanted to help them, posted in public.
Regardless of any feedback, any changes were also public, and anyone could train the month or preview to get the same advantage and the same communication
This is the same with many thing, you invest work/effort/time, you get ahead of those that didn't. Or should people be reworded the same regardless of effort or investment put in?
There is no insider information, more so in this case, every mechanics was listed long before it went live. No hidden synergy, no secret Xuna companions, all there..
> (Quote)
> No, they should not. Every single class has a role that works in the trial, that is good enough.
See this is where I will disagree with you. It has already been stated by the devs that all dps classes should be within range of each other in overall damge. That is not the case right now, and you know it.
Telling a Cleric, warlock, barbie sorry go with the other paragon because that is only way you are useful in the trial is wrong. What gives you the right to tell that Cleric go healer or you don't get in the trial, when that person chooses to run as an dps?
The unbalanced classes isn't your fault, but stop with the you must go support because only the wizard,rogue, hr should be top dps.
Can Tomm be completed with those classes (dc,warlock,fighter,barbie) as the 6 dps toons? If no, then that should tell you something is wrong
> Every class has the option to join ToMM and the tools to complete the trial. Just because it doesn't fit your play style, does not mean your class is completely incapable or that you are somehow missing out. And yes, there does need to be a balance pass, EVERYONE agrees with this. But since every class CAN get into ToMM and complete it, the trial should not be taken out. I am saying this as an Arbiter main.
I have never stated it should be removed until balance issues are fixed as someone else has suggested. And while every class can get into Tomm if they meet il levels, the classes I listed couldn't beat it as the dps. That is an issue.
The only 2 things I would have liked to have seen differently is that the gear was BTA. Reason being: you wanted hard content meant specifically for you, you got that. The gear should have been your cherry on top to showoff as the people who beat it. Not make a massive profit off the sale of the gear.
The other thing would have been a nTomm and mTomm as this would have giving others that dont qualify to at least have something to attempt, otherwise this mod offers them very little.
Just like end gamers hated mod 15 because it offered them nothing, how do you think those that aren't end game feeling.for this mod?
Changes take time, especially when the most recent major rework went live a short 4 months ago. Just this month they put in more data collection stuff so they can better work on the disparity between classes. Things don't happen overnight, especially with the size of the team working on Neverwinter.
Maybe I am taking his words out of context, maybe not. Seeing the comment of " that is good enough" comes across as if you are a dc, barbie, etc run your support paragon otherwise too bad wait till they fix your class.
I agree with you that the state of balance is no reason to delay the content. I have zero expectation of everything being always in my favor and am fine with a period of sucking it up.. after all, have played my warlock through all the previous dark times
The content however does provides a HUGE reason to address the balance issues and the current state is certainly not "good enough". I would go as far as to say that your good enough there is awful close to "in a good place"
As for choices and consequences, sure, but its not quite that simple here. Had I chosen ineffective powers, feats, a bad rotation, sub-par companions or was plain to lazy to put in the time.. I would agree. But to be excluded based on something you have zero influence on, or be forced to play in a way that disgusts you (yeah I do feel that strongly about healing.. yech!). It sucks. And I feel I have a right to express that fact, but if it seems I mean to say that because it sucks for me it should suck for everyone else. That is certainly not my intent.
bottom line for me is simple.. if I can't have it yet, fine, I can wait, more power to those that can, but if I am to be forever excluded or forced into misery.. that is not ok. Oh and don't badmouth jealousy, its one of the drivers of change for the whole of humanity. Righteous indignation shapes the world..
Anyway, I did not mean lose so much of your line's context, yet that is what I ended up doing by rushing. So apologies
Next, I want to discuss the issue of roles, not classes. In 10 man content you typically get 2 healers, 2 tanks and 6 damage dealers. If groups are able to beat it with one healer, as sharp pointed out, that means the group is damage dealer heavy and with the current imbalance for classes it causes further issues for player who don't play one of the top damage dealing classes. This goes back to my first point the content is to easy as it can be beaten with one healer. Therefore the content should be adjusted to ensure groups are taking 2 healers. In fact, I believe the hardest trial should require 3 healers and 3 tanks but that is something we discuss another time.
As for the non top damage dealing classes being able to play as a support role, see my point on roles where group can already complete the new trial with one healer and that most group makeup is 2 healer, 2 tanks and 6 damage dealers. The standard group makeup should have room for the any of the damage dealer class and all class should have the capability to produce similar damage given that there are more damage dealer spots do to mod 16 changes for group composition.
IMO, if the wizard, rogue and ranger all produce damage similar to a cleric, fighter or barbarian I believe that there would be less completed ToMM runs and some player would be asking for damage buffs because someone already did in the post where the developers stated that warlock, wizard, rogue and ranger were all over producing and needed to be fixed.
With all of this said I'm firm in belief that ToMM should be removed until the devs can fix the classes a bit; at least the underlining issue that is making Cleric, Fighter and Barbarian under perform. As for the warlock, that class needs some buffs.
I play an end game wizard that can easily get into ToMM but I wont' step foot into ToMM until its fair for all end game damage dealers.
Another solution is the devs lower Wizard, Rogue and Ranger base damage by 25% to make it closer to the other classes until the devs can fix the damage calculation for all classes.
I don't think the devs will do anything and players will find ways to beat it.
I'm sticking to my guns on not playing it; even though I probably would love the trial as I love over challenging difficult content that requires team work.
Ofc, if not everything then at least those, because this is what people (again most) played and geared for usually.
I would ofc love to see a more rapid and better class changed to everything needed.
Also the notion of X, Y ,Z class is not viable, I'm not sure it's right, there is discrepancy, and it should be fixed ASAP. but can a mix of classes succeed. IMO the question will be, can they get it with almost no deaths... This makes it much lower margin of error, way higher debuff synergy and investment in specific artifacts and what not, but perhaps it is possible (I don't know for sure, didn't see anyone succeed, but I have feeling that it is)
Also again, not the same people, not on players side (mod16 and mod17, different test group except 2? people), not the same devs who responsible for the closed beta on both mods.
2. Do you even understand the damage calculation.. No words can describe waht I want to write now..
Spreading BS, with 0 knowledge.
"Heavily on their feedback"..
I'll just quote a beginning of an idiom
"Better to remain silent and be thought a ...."
In hopes that people start thinking before they type, and think even more careful on what they base what they type, on some vivid imagination, the blame they usually want to attribute to people, their own personal hate or actual objective facts.
different on xbox (not sure about ps4) stuff is significantly cheaper and if you farmed your insignias those were basically free. all the significant cost was in the greens. I know I didn't spend 100 mil or close to it and I have everything but the alpha. I basically built everything myself, insignias, bondings runes etc. still and investment on what you kept instead of sold. but I'd guess over all it's probably more like 35 mil to 50 mil on xbox especially if you're not making/farming stuff yourself. the biggest expense is probably getting req pets to leg. Still not cheap though. (assuming you don't absolutely NEED the alpha lol)
hmmm. ok I just did the math on the current costs of some of the additional things you need without the basics just buying and I was wrong. but I think you might be wrong too. I'm going to guess it's even more expensive than 100 mil on pc.
if you bought
bark 4.2
empowered 15 10.8
bonding 15 4.8
leg mount (Generic) 6
rad 15 x 12 19.2
tactical 15 11
vorp 14 5.6
dom insignia 12
brut insignia lots more depending on which they are selling for about 3.5 mil on xbox each. were cheaper if you made yourself during event..
just adding up those things not including other things is 81 mil so yeah. significant. I never even knew i had so much lol
And I didn't even know until now that there was a secret mod17 group too. Gee, what a surprise.