thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited September 2019
The problem is the existence of a group finder system in the first place. It is not the fault of the NW devs for implementing one, they were simply emulating systems that existed in older mmos, but it is the problem in the first place. In my opinion, the following should happen:
Remove the queue menu entirely. It is an example of a convenience feature which undermines part of the premise of MMOs, which is socialization.
Add the doors to each dungeon/trial to campaign zones.
In order to enter a dungeon/trial, you need to walk with your group to the door and enter there. At the door you can specify whether you are entering the normal version or heroic version.
There is no Item Level requirement to enter. Each next tier of dungeon requires you complete all the dungeons of the previous tier on that character at least once.
This does the following:
It forces some limited amount of communication between players. Because you cannot just, "hit a button and have a queue" either you round people up in looking for group, or, due to frustration, you start forming connections with people and run with a set group of people more and more often.
It breathes some life back into dead lfg channels, due to there being no other way for people that have not met anyone yet to group up. This is good for the community, as more noise in channels by people = new player is more likely to stay.
Due to the requirement to try the new content being completing the previous content, the player should at *least* have gear good enough to complete the previous content. Whilst it might not be good enough to actually complete the new content, because that new player cannot just randomly queue into it and needs to find people willing to take them, their gear/skill needs to at least be good enough to convince someone that they can come in.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
The problem is the existence of a group finder system in the first place. It is not the fault of the NW devs for implementing one, they were simply emulating systems that existed in older mmos, but it is the problem in the first place. In my opinion, the following should happen:
Remove the queue menu entirely. It is an example of a convenience feature which undermines part of the premise of MMOs, which is socialization.
Add the doors to each dungeon/trial to campaign zones.
In order to enter a dungeon/trial, you need to walk with your group to the door and enter there. At the door you can specify whether you are entering the normal version or heroic version.
There is no Item Level requirement to enter. Each next tier of dungeon requires you complete all the dungeons of the previous tier on that character at least once.
This does the following:
It forces some limited amount of communication between players. Because you cannot just, "hit a button and have a queue" either you round people up in looking for group, or, due to frustration, you start forming connections with people and run with a set group of people more and more often.
It breathes some life back into dead lfg channels, due to there being no other way for people that have not met anyone yet to group up. This is good for the community, as more noise in channels by people = new player is more likely to stay.
Due to the requirement to try the new content being completing the previous content, the player should at *least* have gear good enough to complete the previous content. Whilst it might not be good enough to actually complete the new content, because that new player cannot just randomly queue into it and needs to find people willing to take them, their gear/skill needs to at least be good enough to convince someone that they can come in.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
I think its a god awful idea for anyone who doesnt play this game full time. got a job and responsibilities? no more neverwinter for you!
6
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
The problem is the existence of a group finder system in the first place. It is not the fault of the NW devs for implementing one, they were simply emulating systems that existed in older mmos, but it is the problem in the first place. In my opinion, the following should happen:
Remove the queue menu entirely. It is an example of a convenience feature which undermines part of the premise of MMOs, which is socialization.
Add the doors to each dungeon/trial to campaign zones.
In order to enter a dungeon/trial, you need to walk with your group to the door and enter there. At the door you can specify whether you are entering the normal version or heroic version.
There is no Item Level requirement to enter. Each next tier of dungeon requires you complete all the dungeons of the previous tier on that character at least once.
This does the following:
It forces some limited amount of communication between players. Because you cannot just, "hit a button and have a queue" either you round people up in looking for group, or, due to frustration, you start forming connections with people and run with a set group of people more and more often.
It breathes some life back into dead lfg channels, due to there being no other way for people that have not met anyone yet to group up. This is good for the community, as more noise in channels by people = new player is more likely to stay.
Due to the requirement to try the new content being completing the previous content, the player should at *least* have gear good enough to complete the previous content. Whilst it might not be good enough to actually complete the new content, because that new player cannot just randomly queue into it and needs to find people willing to take them, their gear/skill needs to at least be good enough to convince someone that they can come in.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
I think its a god awful idea for anyone who doesnt play this game full time. got a job and responsibilities? no more neverwinter for you!
Except I do? Believe it or not, if everyone is forced to make groups and not find them randomly, then everyone who wants to do it, will do it, Everyone who currently random queues and doesn't premake groups will be forced to use LFG, which means you should see the same number of groups forming, but with additional steps involved. I played MMOs without group finders, they were a lot more social and people could not afford to be HAMSTER, because it gave you a reputation within the community and then people wouldn't invite you to groups.
Having to manually make groups becomes a shared inconvenience, everyone is aggravated by it in some way, but the inconvenience exists for a good reason.
The problem is the existence of a group finder system in the first place. It is not the fault of the NW devs for implementing one, they were simply emulating systems that existed in older mmos, but it is the problem in the first place. In my opinion, the following should happen:
Remove the queue menu entirely. It is an example of a convenience feature which undermines part of the premise of MMOs, which is socialization.
Add the doors to each dungeon/trial to campaign zones.
In order to enter a dungeon/trial, you need to walk with your group to the door and enter there. At the door you can specify whether you are entering the normal version or heroic version.
There is no Item Level requirement to enter. Each next tier of dungeon requires you complete all the dungeons of the previous tier on that character at least once.
This does the following:
It forces some limited amount of communication between players. Because you cannot just, "hit a button and have a queue" either you round people up in looking for group, or, due to frustration, you start forming connections with people and run with a set group of people more and more often.
It breathes some life back into dead lfg channels, due to there being no other way for people that have not met anyone yet to group up. This is good for the community, as more noise in channels by people = new player is more likely to stay.
Due to the requirement to try the new content being completing the previous content, the player should at *least* have gear good enough to complete the previous content. Whilst it might not be good enough to actually complete the new content, because that new player cannot just randomly queue into it and needs to find people willing to take them, their gear/skill needs to at least be good enough to convince someone that they can come in.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
I think its a god awful idea for anyone who doesnt play this game full time. got a job and responsibilities? no more neverwinter for you!
Except I do? Believe it or not, if everyone is forced to make groups and not find them randomly, then everyone who wants to do it, will do it, Everyone who currently random queues and doesn't premake groups will be forced to use LFG, which means you should see the same number of groups forming, but with additional steps involved. I played MMOs without group finders, they were a lot more social and people could not afford to be HAMSTER, because it gave you a reputation within the community and then people wouldn't invite you to groups.
Having to manually make groups becomes a shared inconvenience, everyone is aggravated by it in some way, but the inconvenience exists for a good reason.
i disagree, i think it will do nothing but hurt the ever small population this game has. it will run off normal mmo players and leave a minority. simply agree to disagree.
I really don't get why some people are acting as if a class having a specific role is a new thing. Or a class being preferred over another class is a new thing. Or a class being asked to run certain powers is a new thing.
OPs were expected to run bubble for a long time when they first came out. GFs got kicked to the curb when OPs first came out. GFs were expected to run CS & Fray for a long time or they weren't desired. DCs were expected to run AA & HG nonstop. DO DCs were expected to buff. TRs were expected to SoD. SWs were expected to temp and debuff for a bit. DCs were expected to hea....oh wait no one needed heals for the last 2-3 years.
This game has been about classes doing what's best at the moment to get through the FOTM content. And every time someone whined about their class getting left behind or another class being picked over them, etc etc.
ToMM can stay open. ToMM wasn't designed for 95% of the playerbase and the devs stated it's not intended to be pugged nor is it intended for most players. ToMM is an experiment by the devs with to create some hard endgame content.
The only issue here is that this dev team ONLY released ToMM. The players that can't run it have to find something else to do and expeditions are lame.
So now we have the qq crowd that can't possibly be asked to run a different paragon or a different power or a different class. I miss a huge chunk of the player base that has left this game over the past 2 years. We knew the value of switching up builds when needed. We each had multiple toons that could be swapped in and out depending on need.
Now this player base has turned into a large chunk of "this is how i build and you can all go to *!HAMSTER because i'm not changing a thing but you have to pick me up or i'll waaaaaaah".
Mod 16 and 17 didn't fix anything. Things are actually worst than they were in mod 15. Mod 16 was suppose to bring about a balance to the game and make it easier for the developers to fix prevailing issues. The big issue that is causing imbalance is that the code used by the two devs were different and this impacted classes ability to produce similar damage. The four classes that benefited are Rogue, Warlock, Wizard and Ranger. Of these four only the warlock is a sub-par damage dealer while the other three are the top damage dealers in the game.
Like I stated more than once I don't think the devs will pull ToMM. I also think that it is unfair for the players of cleric, warlock, barbarian and fighters as these classes are under performing damage wise and have to battle each other out for the 1 healer and tank role left in groups as most groups are taking 1 paladin healer and 1 paladin. I know that may not always be the case but that is how it seems from all runs that have available videos. Some are even doing 1 healer runs.
So those that are making a comment about all classes having roles that can be used in ToMM are correct but with less support roles needed those classes are typically outside of the invite wondering why the devs did what they did to the game. Those who want to get into ToMM but can't do to their damage dealer being inferior some leave, some simply try to get into groups as support (and be ineffective given their lack of knowledge playing as support), and others will play other content.
I'm hopeful that the devs fix the class imbalance before mod 18 so this way all classes can play as a DPS in ToMM before the next mod.
How is this any worse than mod 15? You are complaining that 4 classes have to queue for 2 roles. when back in mod 15 you had all 7 dps classes queuing for 1 or 2 spots in a dungeon. The only class that didn't have a specified dps slot was Pally. Although even that didn't stop people as you could actually queue as dps as a pally if you had a loadout without a paragon specified. So realistically you had all 8 classes queue for 2 spots. That is twice as bad as it is now.
If you are talking random Q than it is still 3 dps and 2 support for a dungeon and 6 dps and 4 support for a trial. That hasn't changed. My comment on available spots was for preformed ToMM groups.
In mod 15 a CoDG group had 2-3 dps players that were a GWF or TR usually with the rest as buffers. Now it is 2 healer and 2 tanks with 6 damage dealers. There is a vast difference between mod 15 and the current game. Mod 15 it was better IMO because even if you played an inferior DPS class you had a greater odd of joining a group playing a support role. Now the inferior damage dealing classes are fighting for the limited support roles.
The problem is the existence of a group finder system in the first place. It is not the fault of the NW devs for implementing one, they were simply emulating systems that existed in older mmos, but it is the problem in the first place. In my opinion, the following should happen:
Remove the queue menu entirely. It is an example of a convenience feature which undermines part of the premise of MMOs, which is socialization.
Add the doors to each dungeon/trial to campaign zones.
In order to enter a dungeon/trial, you need to walk with your group to the door and enter there. At the door you can specify whether you are entering the normal version or heroic version.
There is no Item Level requirement to enter. Each next tier of dungeon requires you complete all the dungeons of the previous tier on that character at least once.
This does the following:
It forces some limited amount of communication between players. Because you cannot just, "hit a button and have a queue" either you round people up in looking for group, or, due to frustration, you start forming connections with people and run with a set group of people more and more often.
It breathes some life back into dead lfg channels, due to there being no other way for people that have not met anyone yet to group up. This is good for the community, as more noise in channels by people = new player is more likely to stay.
Due to the requirement to try the new content being completing the previous content, the player should at *least* have gear good enough to complete the previous content. Whilst it might not be good enough to actually complete the new content, because that new player cannot just randomly queue into it and needs to find people willing to take them, their gear/skill needs to at least be good enough to convince someone that they can come in.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
I think its a god awful idea for anyone who doesnt play this game full time. got a job and responsibilities? no more neverwinter for you!
Except I do? Believe it or not, if everyone is forced to make groups and not find them randomly, then everyone who wants to do it, will do it, Everyone who currently random queues and doesn't premake groups will be forced to use LFG, which means you should see the same number of groups forming, but with additional steps involved. I played MMOs without group finders, they were a lot more social and people could not afford to be HAMSTER, because it gave you a reputation within the community and then people wouldn't invite you to groups.
Having to manually make groups becomes a shared inconvenience, everyone is aggravated by it in some way, but the inconvenience exists for a good reason.
Random Q is design to help generate AD into the game. Removing it would reduce the amount that is generated by the random Q. It would negatively impact the game. Just no....
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
The problem is the existence of a group finder system in the first place. It is not the fault of the NW devs for implementing one, they were simply emulating systems that existed in older mmos, but it is the problem in the first place. In my opinion, the following should happen:
Remove the queue menu entirely. It is an example of a convenience feature which undermines part of the premise of MMOs, which is socialization.
Add the doors to each dungeon/trial to campaign zones.
In order to enter a dungeon/trial, you need to walk with your group to the door and enter there. At the door you can specify whether you are entering the normal version or heroic version.
There is no Item Level requirement to enter. Each next tier of dungeon requires you complete all the dungeons of the previous tier on that character at least once.
This does the following:
It forces some limited amount of communication between players. Because you cannot just, "hit a button and have a queue" either you round people up in looking for group, or, due to frustration, you start forming connections with people and run with a set group of people more and more often.
It breathes some life back into dead lfg channels, due to there being no other way for people that have not met anyone yet to group up. This is good for the community, as more noise in channels by people = new player is more likely to stay.
Due to the requirement to try the new content being completing the previous content, the player should at *least* have gear good enough to complete the previous content. Whilst it might not be good enough to actually complete the new content, because that new player cannot just randomly queue into it and needs to find people willing to take them, their gear/skill needs to at least be good enough to convince someone that they can come in.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
I think its a god awful idea for anyone who doesnt play this game full time. got a job and responsibilities? no more neverwinter for you!
Except I do? Believe it or not, if everyone is forced to make groups and not find them randomly, then everyone who wants to do it, will do it, Everyone who currently random queues and doesn't premake groups will be forced to use LFG, which means you should see the same number of groups forming, but with additional steps involved. I played MMOs without group finders, they were a lot more social and people could not afford to be HAMSTER, because it gave you a reputation within the community and then people wouldn't invite you to groups.
Having to manually make groups becomes a shared inconvenience, everyone is aggravated by it in some way, but the inconvenience exists for a good reason.
Random Q is design to help generate AD into the game. Removing it would reduce the amount that is generated by the random Q. It would negatively impact the game. Just no....
I don't think you quite understand, I wouldn't just remove random queue, I would remove the queue system entirely. AD can be added to simply finishing the run, the random queue reward doesn't need to be for random queuing and in fact rewarding people for playing with random groups is terrible design. It is rewarding antisocial gameplay.
plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,417Arc User
edited September 2019
1. I disagree with RQ design is to help generate AD into the game. Before the existence of RQ, IMO, it was a lot easier to generate rAD. Before RQ, it was fun. RQ is not fun. 2. RQ destroyed a lot of dungeon runs that were done a lot before the existence of RQ. IMO, RQ destroyed the social game play that was rich before RQ. Again, before RQ, it was fun. 3. what thefabricant suggested is basically go back to the old days. People grouped up before the door. I don't think I will like it.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
re rewarding anti social gameplay... maybe but so what. it's giving more than one segment of the population a chance to get into a game even if they can't complete it. I personally enjoy the experience. (for some things, on my most bis toons only...lol) it definitely can cut down on time trying to get a group together. there are just so few people playing and not all in the same zone that it makes it possible to get a group where you might not be able to otherwise. I get that pc has lfg rooms that you can utilize from anywhere but for us console people you have to be in the same zone as they are. we don't have lfg channels other than the zone lfg lfg channel. it's common on console for groups to try adn form and after like half an hour of looking for the healer or whatever we're all like just que it and we're able to get in. I can't say how it would affect pc because pc is a totally different animal than console.. but I can say with certainty this would hurt, maybe mortally so, the console population
Due to the requirement to try the new content being completing the previous content, the player should at *least* have gear good enough to complete the previous content. Whilst it might not be good enough to actually complete the new content, because that new player cannot just randomly queue into it and needs to find people willing to take them, their gear/skill needs to at least be good enough to convince someone that they can come in.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
The idea is not bad, but it fall on the last point (the first in the quote). This, probably, could be even harder for new players to find a group to join the dungeons, because most likely people will check their equip/stuff. Then the improvement in this sense could be not a scaling equal to everyone, but scaling by group. I mean, a scaling that allows a group of 15k IL as well as a group of 24k IL to join a dungeon in a balanced way. The darksides of this thing what are? End Game people will never feel like made improvements. It could be nice for some of them and not for others... It's a very hard controversy to solve to be honest...
But, from my point of view, in terms of queuing, it was way more balanced before mod 16 than now. It depended mainly from players abilities. I make you an example: if a group of players with IL 14k would queue REQ (14k was the minimum) they could find balance in the dungeon with chance to complete it playing in sinergy. Now there is not at all. If people with the minum IL required for a queue now go there, most likely they don't complete it. Of course, most of the times, as I said many times by now, it's players (and devs) fault. Because they care about IL to join a specific dungeon but they don't care about the stats required to do it (And minimum stats are not clearly specified and highlighted). To start solving this, maybe could be done a tooltip in game everyone can access where it's possible to read: - The minimum stats needed for a specific queue; - The minimum stats for playing campaigns; - The minimum stats for a specific dungeons; - A voice, inside the character sheet, as before. I mean, a voice that clearly specify for example the % of defenses ignored and crit chance. If you have, for example, 45k Arm Pen, when you queue LoMM it says clearly "60% defenses ignored" instead of nothing. In this way people can understand and think "Maybe I have not enough for this dungeon! I should work on it".
Don't know, but it's only my point of view. Too many things are not clear for lots of people and I'm not asking they should me like me or you who search in google or make tests to discover it. A lot of player open only the game, so, it's good if they can find all the informations about the game IN the game.
The problem is the existence of a group finder system in the first place. It is not the fault of the NW devs for implementing one, they were simply emulating systems that existed in older mmos, but it is the problem in the first place. In my opinion, the following should happen:
Remove the queue menu entirely. It is an example of a convenience feature which undermines part of the premise of MMOs, which is socialization.
Add the doors to each dungeon/trial to campaign zones.
In order to enter a dungeon/trial, you need to walk with your group to the door and enter there. At the door you can specify whether you are entering the normal version or heroic version.
There is no Item Level requirement to enter. Each next tier of dungeon requires you complete all the dungeons of the previous tier on that character at least once.
This does the following:
It forces some limited amount of communication between players. Because you cannot just, "hit a button and have a queue" either you round people up in looking for group, or, due to frustration, you start forming connections with people and run with a set group of people more and more often.
It breathes some life back into dead lfg channels, due to there being no other way for people that have not met anyone yet to group up. This is good for the community, as more noise in channels by people = new player is more likely to stay.
Due to the requirement to try the new content being completing the previous content, the player should at *least* have gear good enough to complete the previous content. Whilst it might not be good enough to actually complete the new content, because that new player cannot just randomly queue into it and needs to find people willing to take them, their gear/skill needs to at least be good enough to convince someone that they can come in.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
I think its a god awful idea for anyone who doesnt play this game full time. got a job and responsibilities? no more neverwinter for you!
Except I do? Believe it or not, if everyone is forced to make groups and not find them randomly, then everyone who wants to do it, will do it, Everyone who currently random queues and doesn't premake groups will be forced to use LFG, which means you should see the same number of groups forming, but with additional steps involved. I played MMOs without group finders, they were a lot more social and people could not afford to be HAMSTER, because it gave you a reputation within the community and then people wouldn't invite you to groups.
Having to manually make groups becomes a shared inconvenience, everyone is aggravated by it in some way, but the inconvenience exists for a good reason.
Random Q is design to help generate AD into the game. Removing it would reduce the amount that is generated by the random Q. It would negatively impact the game. Just no....
I don't think you quite understand, I wouldn't just remove random queue, I would remove the queue system entirely. AD can be added to simply finishing the run, the random queue reward doesn't need to be for random queuing and in fact rewarding people for playing with random groups is terrible design. It is rewarding antisocial gameplay.
As someone that has ran many guilds the random Q system is actually a good system. I have used those to help build up a guild and recruit player who were new to the game and needed help. Those players ended up sticking around and reaching end and played to a high level. Random Q systems have their benefits.
I went into a REQ alone and got 4 other players who never even been in LoMM. We were all on the mic. I was able to walk them through the dungeon and explain all the mechanics also one end up in my alliance as they wanted to join. All thing you point out about the game being social I just proved how valuable random Q can be for newer players who may not know much or which guild they want to join, etc... joining a random Q you may find yourself a guild, new friends in the game, etc... I've seen this more than once.
When I started playing MMOs random Q allowed me to form many friends, join guilds, etc... You ideals are only self serving and not really benefiting the community where as a random Q system does in fact have many benefits. Players like yourself may not find the benefit from random Q system but they do have a place in a game like NWO.
Random Q is design to help generate AD into the game. Removing it would reduce the amount that is generated by the random Q. It would negatively impact the game. Just no....
This is not at all accurate. AD was generated just fine before Random Qs were even a thought in the devs heads. For a good deal of players, AD was generated in far greater amounts before random q's came along.
And it wouldn't be that hard to simply add AD to the end of a non-queued dungeon.
I'm still not a proponent of removing random Q's entirely and I rarely even run outside private Qs. But I wouldn't mind seeing newer attempts at a nonQ dungeon/trial/skirm.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
I think its a god awful idea for anyone who doesnt play this game full time. got a job and responsibilities? no more neverwinter for you!
Gamers nowdays (for those who can remember and compare with things like UO or Everquest) want to consume the game, or more precisely devour it as fast as they can more or less like how US "cliché" eat. Patience is inexistant. Players want to do things now. No talk, no walk.
It is the McDonald drive-in model "order-pay-take your food-eat quickly- (and be already hungry 3hours later)"...
What a great time to play MMORPGs... I miss the old 90s and early 2000s, before the WoW juggernault had brought to MMORPG more and more people into what was a "niche". Nowdays, MMORPGs don't exist anymore. We only have MMOGs.... RP is long gone...
If I wanted to do things "now" because I'm an impatient <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I wouldn't play NW altogether and look for a game with a not as tedious grind and rng that forces me to run the same content for months because I keep dropping green companion gear... And vanity pets. Whatever. If you think the queue system is responsible for the negative touches in the community, please also look elsewhere too.
The problem with removing queues is that this would lead to much more exclusion when running dungeons. Every player trying to run something would be subject to scrutiny before even being given the chance to prove what they can do in the dungeon. Queue systems allow players meeting certain basic requirements to at least get their foot in the door, and removing them would simply lead to yet more elitism that we definitely do not need.
Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
The problem with removing queues is that this would lead to much more exclusion when running dungeons. Every player trying to run something would be subject to scrutiny before even being given the chance to prove what they can do in the dungeon. Queue systems allow players meeting certain basic requirements to at least get their foot in the door, and removing them would simply lead to yet more elitism that we definitely do not need.
agree with this. what I do think they could do that might get rid of some of the more annoying players is to remove bonus ad for random ques. people doing this on alts and toons too low for the ad is the bigger problem imo. like someone else said in a different context just give some bonus daily ad from chests for content that is relevant to your stat level. they have il levels as entry points but that's silly at this point. Il Has NEVER been more meaningless. at this point it needs to be based on arpen and power. must have this much arpen and power to enter. or at least meet arpen...
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arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
There are several types of problem/toxic players. You have the bots, trolls, players who don't listen to advice or ignore mechanics (not aiming thoons at the right target, and are not to be confused with new players), and item level or power stat elistists (not to be confused with players who happen to have higher item level and/or power). Most get around these types of players by joining guilds and expanding friends lists and forming groups from these. However there are times when your buddies might all be busy irl, or its not a prime time for your guild and you just want to grind out some rAD, so you turn to the public channels and the current queue system, which is rife with bots, trolls, and terrible players. Removing the queue system would get rid of 3 of the above toxic player types but open the door for the fourth. Luckily the fourth type of player can simply be ignored just like those who develop a bad reputation for being a troll or terrible at following mechanics.
In place of the "k" queue window, we could get a LFG window that lists all the current group adverts, so those logging in to find some quick dungeons can do so and apply to appropriate groups.
There are several types of problem/toxic players. You have the bots, trolls, players who don't listen to advice or ignore mechanics (not aiming thoons at the right target, and are not to be confused with new players), and item level or power stat elistists (not to be confused with players who happen to have higher item level and/or power). Most get around these types of players by joining guilds and expanding friends lists and forming groups from these. However there are times when your buddies might all be busy irl, or its not a prime time for your guild and you just want to grind out some rAD, so you turn to the public channels and the current queue system, which is rife with bots, trolls, and terrible players. Removing the queue system would get rid of 3 of the above toxic player types but open the door for the fourth. Luckily the fourth type of player can simply be ignored just like those who develop a bad reputation for being a troll or terrible at following mechanics.
In place of the "k" queue window, we could get a LFG window that lists all the current group adverts, so those logging in to find some quick dungeons can do so and apply to appropriate groups.
devs have a lot of options with pc, but I do'nt think they have so many options with chat or lfg systems with console. they have to navigate ps4 and xbox rules and restrictions then. plus if I am reading what you are suggesting correctly I think it's a lot of dev work that would be required to change a system that is working adequately imo. it's not ideal but it's working. and there are so so many things in this game that ARE broken and Do need fixing badly. I'd really rather they left working things alone lest they become another broken toy on the pile that makes this game one step closer to dead.
Port Nyanzaru (as much as I hate its dumb bright yellow visuals) actually worked quite well as a bustling central hub. There were always like 100s team hosting T9, CoDG, MPF, Demo, anything. On PS4 at least I think the Port Nyanzaru (and *cough* early Barovia) era was the peak and like at least 50 times more active then Yawning Portal (and 2/3 of that activity is about freaking Master Expeditions) . Would have been nice to be able to access Port zone & LfG chat globally if custom channels for whatever reason are not possible on consoles to add.
Port Nyanzaru (as much as I hate its dumb bright yellow visuals) actually worked quite well as a bustling central hub. There were always like 100s team hosting T9, CoDG, MPF, Demo, anything. On PS4 at least I think the Port Nyanzaru (and *cough* early Barovia) era was the peak and like at least 50 times more active then Yawning Portal (and 2/3 of that activity is about freaking Master Expeditions) . Would have been nice to be able to access Port zone & LfG chat globally if custom channels for whatever reason are not possible on consoles to add.
I don't have the numbers or anything but I think the player base has just significantly declined. also t9 and codg were just objectively better so more people were running it. really Lomm is a terrible dungeon. it's easy and the rewards match that level of difficulty. I'd rather go back and re run t9 or codg personally.
Getting rid of the queue system would drive a way a huge portion of the remaining NW crowd at a faster rate in which it would attract new players to replace them. The system we have now works fine as long as the runs themselves are working properly and people can get in and out not only in a timely fashion but in a way that it doesn't cost them too much resources (read as: more than they get from completing it).
With the way things are now between the wonky scaling and dungeons that are just broke or even just have got to a point where they aren't fun anymore players have just stopped running them. There has to be an incentive (positive value) to play them where the players don't come out upside down on cost and/or time.
And despite a lot of the rhetoric in this thread, a HUGE portion of NW is solo players (even those in guilds). NW never has been a typical MMO which is why many people play it. Forcing people to interact with complete strangers might work with some of the NW population but I'm willing to bet a huge portion would just not play anymore.
If NW had a massive player base perhaps it could take such a hit, but right now I really have a gut feeling NW is hanging on by a thread. A push like mentioned above to drive off a good portion of the remaining players would be a nail in the coffin IMO.
The queue system was working just fine before MOD16. We need to get back to a point where there is a real reward for completing them (even players who are endgame or near end game level as well as those who are not) but for this to happen the dungeons themselves have to be tuned so that people with the appropriate IL (or whatever litmus test you want to give them) have a reasonably good chance to not just complete them but to complete them in a timely manner as well.
I don't have the numbers or anything but I think the player base has just significantly declined. also t9 and codg were just objectively better so more people were running it. really Lomm is a terrible dungeon. it's easy and the rewards match that level of difficulty. I'd rather go back and re run t9 or codg personally.
Yeah, it's only slightly better weapons (and some prefer Watcher set), shirt & pants from seals. Even during 2x seals I didn't see that many farms. On the other hand it's easy to craft a key each day since the currency drops from Master Expeditions which is nice.
To be honest I don't mind the dungeon being more accessable. If you look at how the game was on Preview getting all necessary stats up wasn't always easy, so I suppose they also considered players who are slightly undergeared (dungeons takes longer but is not unbeatable). That's ok from a design point of view for a new dungeon, except the fact that it's the only endgame content during Mod 16. Reward-wise I think it would have been nice to get Etchings & Zok boxes, maybe capped to a few per week, since many players farm those and the rewards can be nice. Lots of people were playing Barovia and the dungeon had relatively high requirements. Sure I wish there were some more mechanics but it's not too bad all things considered. They didn't want to repeat the mistake of having many people being unable to beat a new dungeon like in Barovia. That's what ToMM is for.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
I think its a god awful idea for anyone who doesnt play this game full time. got a job and responsibilities? no more neverwinter for you!
Gamers nowdays (for those who can remember and compare with things like UO or Everquest) want to consume the game, or more precisely devour it as fast as they can more or less like how US "cliché" eat. Patience is inexistant. Players want to do things now. No talk, no walk.
It is the McDonald drive-in model "order-pay-take your food-eat quickly- (and be already hungry 3hours later)"...
What a great time to play MMORPGs... I miss the old 90s and early 2000s, before the WoW juggernault had brought to MMORPG more and more people into what was a "niche". Nowdays, MMORPGs don't exist anymore. We only have MMOGs.... RP is long gone...
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
I think its a god awful idea for anyone who doesnt play this game full time. got a job and responsibilities? no more neverwinter for you!
Gamers nowdays (for those who can remember and compare with things like UO or Everquest) want to consume the game, or more precisely devour it as fast as they can more or less like how US "cliché" eat. Patience is inexistant. Players want to do things now. No talk, no walk.
It is the McDonald drive-in model "order-pay-take your food-eat quickly- (and be already hungry 3hours later)"...
What a great time to play MMORPGs... I miss the old 90s and early 2000s, before the WoW juggernault had brought to MMORPG more and more people into what was a "niche". Nowdays, MMORPGs don't exist anymore. We only have MMOGs.... RP is long gone...
First and foremost when I played Everquest I was in college and now I'm an adult with responsibilities. With that comes the inability to play MMOs for hours on end. Instead I have to plan my gaming time around my responsibilities. Some nights I have zero time to play vs. when I was college I had an abundance of time to play.
As time pass between when I was in college and now one thing that has happened within society is the desire to have more things being convenient to allow us to enjoy more things or do more things. This includes MMO games. I look at ESO and they started out with requiring players to acquire everything on all characters and yet now if you complete everything on one character you can acquire it with cash for convenience purposes instead of grinding it out. NWO being a F2P game has similar things.
Random Q's simply add to that flow of convenience and prior to random Q you could randomly still Q for a dungeon. The Q system isn't horrible as I pointed out. It has a purpose.
As for RP in MMOs that is still a thing. You get with a group and your roleplay. There is a difference between role playing in a MMO and simply trying to improve your character. When I played DCUO I had my max character and one of my alts I was in a role playing guild/league and it was fun when I got bored of playing all the end game content. In fact, I have seen a RP guild in NWO on the PS4, so there are still players that role play in MMO.
Today everything is more about here and now and can I get to the same point that another player is at within a short time instead of investing hours upon hours upon hours, which will eventually become months to achieve the same thing they have. Nope, today convenience allows players to get there much quicker as that is what society deemed as the norm.
Port Nyanzaru (as much as I hate its dumb bright yellow visuals) actually worked quite well as a bustling central hub. There were always like 100s team hosting T9, CoDG, MPF, Demo, anything. On PS4 at least I think the Port Nyanzaru (and *cough* early Barovia) era was the peak and like at least 50 times more active then Yawning Portal (and 2/3 of that activity is about freaking Master Expeditions) . Would have been nice to be able to access Port zone & LfG chat globally if custom channels for whatever reason are not possible on consoles to add.
I don't have the numbers or anything but I think the player base has just significantly declined. also t9 and codg were just objectively better so more people were running it. really Lomm is a terrible dungeon. it's easy and the rewards match that level of difficulty. I'd rather go back and re run t9 or codg personally.
LoMM is a great dungeon by design but the problem isn't the dungeon its that on console we never got to experience the dungeon as originally designed. We got the adjusted version so it is much easier than what PC players initially got. That change was a result of PC player feedback.
The current problem in this game is the excessive damage that wizard, rogue and rangers do. I'm not joking either. I got into a group on my cleric running as a healer in LoMM. We had a barbarian, warlock and cleric as our DD. That dungeon went from OMG super easy to being reasonable but not hard. We didn't wipe but you can easily tell that there was no rogue, ranger or wizard in the group. Same group was going to run it again but the cleric needed to go we got a wizard and and shaved almost 5 minutes off our time in LoMM. The devs are addressing this issue but it should have been address prior to mod 16 even launching. Instead it might be address by mod 18.
Things felt a lot better in mod 15, content was actually better. T9 I went in with a tank and healer we one phased Orcus. Yeah T9 with 3 players can one phase Orcus. It took 4 players in prior mods and 5 for most groups. CoDG is just as bad. FBI I can solo no problem on Wizard, didn't even pop a potion. Couldn't do that in mod 15, I needed a few health stones and even died once or twice, not in mod 16.
Game isn't better it just as broke as it was in prior mods.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
re rewarding anti social gameplay... maybe but so what. it's giving more than one segment of the population a chance to get into a game even if they can't complete it. I personally enjoy the experience. (for some things, on my most bis toons only...lol) it definitely can cut down on time trying to get a group together. there are just so few people playing and not all in the same zone that it makes it possible to get a group where you might not be able to otherwise. I get that pc has lfg rooms that you can utilize from anywhere but for us console people you have to be in the same zone as they are. we don't have lfg channels other than the zone lfg lfg channel. it's common on console for groups to try adn form and after like half an hour of looking for the healer or whatever we're all like just que it and we're able to get in. I can't say how it would affect pc because pc is a totally different animal than console.. but I can say with certainty this would hurt, maybe mortally so, the console population
Believe it or not, queue systems weren't always in MMOs. The first MMOs I played, initially did not have them. I have seen both sides of the queue system, before they were added and after they were added. Not having a queue system does not magically prevent people who are not completely geared from getting groups. When I first started MMOs, I was also super casual, had no clue what I was doing and the way to resolve the issue was to join guilds. Even the most hardcore MMOs have casual friendly guilds, that advertise themselves both in game and online as accepting new players. From there, you can ask for help with your first runs of dungeons/raids and then eventually, once you have experience, asking in lfg is no longer a problem. Although at that point, you probably have made friends in game and no longer need to ask in channels regardless.
This is the social aspect of MMOs, the "multiplayer" aspect. Random queues are anything but social I would bet that aside from, "hi, gg, thanks" and other 1 word commentaries, random queues pass in complete silence. That is my experience with them and I used to random queue a lot. I would bet the statistics are something like, "97% of random queues pass by without more than 1 word sentences." There are literally NPCs in single player games which communicate more than players in random queues, they may as well just be bots.
I don't see why a game which markets itself around being social should push itself towards people who are anything but wanting to be social.
The problem is the existence of a group finder system in the first place. It is not the fault of the NW devs for implementing one, they were simply emulating systems that existed in older mmos, but it is the problem in the first place. In my opinion, the following should happen:
Remove the queue menu entirely. It is an example of a convenience feature which undermines part of the premise of MMOs, which is socialization.
Add the doors to each dungeon/trial to campaign zones.
In order to enter a dungeon/trial, you need to walk with your group to the door and enter there. At the door you can specify whether you are entering the normal version or heroic version.
There is no Item Level requirement to enter. Each next tier of dungeon requires you complete all the dungeons of the previous tier on that character at least once.
This does the following:
It forces some limited amount of communication between players. Because you cannot just, "hit a button and have a queue" either you round people up in looking for group, or, due to frustration, you start forming connections with people and run with a set group of people more and more often.
It breathes some life back into dead lfg channels, due to there being no other way for people that have not met anyone yet to group up. This is good for the community, as more noise in channels by people = new player is more likely to stay.
Due to the requirement to try the new content being completing the previous content, the player should at *least* have gear good enough to complete the previous content. Whilst it might not be good enough to actually complete the new content, because that new player cannot just randomly queue into it and needs to find people willing to take them, their gear/skill needs to at least be good enough to convince someone that they can come in.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.
I think its a god awful idea for anyone who doesnt play this game full time. got a job and responsibilities? no more neverwinter for you!
Except I do? Believe it or not, if everyone is forced to make groups and not find them randomly, then everyone who wants to do it, will do it, Everyone who currently random queues and doesn't premake groups will be forced to use LFG, which means you should see the same number of groups forming, but with additional steps involved. I played MMOs without group finders, they were a lot more social and people could not afford to be HAMSTER, because it gave you a reputation within the community and then people wouldn't invite you to groups.
Having to manually make groups becomes a shared inconvenience, everyone is aggravated by it in some way, but the inconvenience exists for a good reason.
Random Q is design to help generate AD into the game. Removing it would reduce the amount that is generated by the random Q. It would negatively impact the game. Just no....
I don't think you quite understand, I wouldn't just remove random queue, I would remove the queue system entirely. AD can be added to simply finishing the run, the random queue reward doesn't need to be for random queuing and in fact rewarding people for playing with random groups is terrible design. It is rewarding antisocial gameplay.
As someone that has ran many guilds the random Q system is actually a good system. I have used those to help build up a guild and recruit player who were new to the game and needed help. Those players ended up sticking around and reaching end and played to a high level. Random Q systems have their benefits.
And how is this any different to advertising in a channel saying, "looking for new players." Furthermore, this is the exception, not the norm. Most people just use the system to avoid having to socialize.
The problem with removing queues is that this would lead to much more exclusion when running dungeons. Every player trying to run something would be subject to scrutiny before even being given the chance to prove what they can do in the dungeon. Queue systems allow players meeting certain basic requirements to at least get their foot in the door, and removing them would simply lead to yet more elitism that we definitely do not need.
The funny thing is, we don't need to hypothetically guess what games without queue systems look like, since they existed in the past and we know how players solve this issue. They solve it by SOCIALIZING. Joining guilds, forming communities and doing the things which are in the spirit of what MMOs should be about. Doing things online in social groups of people. The hilarious thing is, those games were so much more social than MMOs now that its oceans apart. Everyone knew who everyone else was, either by knowing them directly, or by knowing someone who knew someone who knew that person. If you were an HAMSTER, the whole server knew about it and it wasn't good for you. People didn't tolerate that kind of behavior.
Item level requirements for dungeons are stupid and they always have been. Raise them too high and good players who could complete the dungeon with less are upset, lower them too low and bad players who can't do them with that much complain, even if there is a group somewhere which can do them with the minimum. There is no perfect threshold. Getting rid of them and the queue system is the start to creating a much better MMO environment.
Comments
- Remove the queue menu entirely. It is an example of a convenience feature which undermines part of the premise of MMOs, which is socialization.
- Add the doors to each dungeon/trial to campaign zones.
- In order to enter a dungeon/trial, you need to walk with your group to the door and enter there. At the door you can specify whether you are entering the normal version or heroic version.
- There is no Item Level requirement to enter. Each next tier of dungeon requires you complete all the dungeons of the previous tier on that character at least once.
This does the following:- It forces some limited amount of communication between players. Because you cannot just, "hit a button and have a queue" either you round people up in looking for group, or, due to frustration, you start forming connections with people and run with a set group of people more and more often.
- It breathes some life back into dead lfg channels, due to there being no other way for people that have not met anyone yet to group up. This is good for the community, as more noise in channels by people = new player is more likely to stay.
- Due to the requirement to try the new content being completing the previous content, the player should at *least* have gear good enough to complete the previous content. Whilst it might not be good enough to actually complete the new content, because that new player cannot just randomly queue into it and needs to find people willing to take them, their gear/skill needs to at least be good enough to convince someone that they can come in.
Queue systems imo are the biggest failed experiment in MMOs. They need to die. Sometimes, added inconvenience serves a good purpose, the "inconvenience" of having to communicate with others to form a party is in the spirit of what it is to play an MMO and is healthy for the game.Having to manually make groups becomes a shared inconvenience, everyone is aggravated by it in some way, but the inconvenience exists for a good reason.
In mod 15 a CoDG group had 2-3 dps players that were a GWF or TR usually with the rest as buffers. Now it is 2 healer and 2 tanks with 6 damage dealers. There is a vast difference between mod 15 and the current game. Mod 15 it was better IMO because even if you played an inferior DPS class you had a greater odd of joining a group playing a support role. Now the inferior damage dealing classes are fighting for the limited support roles.
2. RQ destroyed a lot of dungeon runs that were done a lot before the existence of RQ. IMO, RQ destroyed the social game play that was rich before RQ. Again, before RQ, it was fun.
3. what thefabricant suggested is basically go back to the old days. People grouped up before the door. I don't think I will like it.
Then the improvement in this sense could be not a scaling equal to everyone, but scaling by group. I mean, a scaling that allows a group of 15k IL as well as a group of 24k IL to join a dungeon in a balanced way. The darksides of this thing what are? End Game people will never feel like made improvements. It could be nice for some of them and not for others...
It's a very hard controversy to solve to be honest...
But, from my point of view, in terms of queuing, it was way more balanced before mod 16 than now. It depended mainly from players abilities. I make you an example: if a group of players with IL 14k would queue REQ (14k was the minimum) they could find balance in the dungeon with chance to complete it playing in sinergy. Now there is not at all. If people with the minum IL required for a queue now go there, most likely they don't complete it. Of course, most of the times, as I said many times by now, it's players (and devs) fault. Because they care about IL to join a specific dungeon but they don't care about the stats required to do it (And minimum stats are not clearly specified and highlighted).
To start solving this, maybe could be done a tooltip in game everyone can access where it's possible to read:
- The minimum stats needed for a specific queue;
- The minimum stats for playing campaigns;
- The minimum stats for a specific dungeons;
- A voice, inside the character sheet, as before. I mean, a voice that clearly specify for example the % of defenses ignored and crit chance. If you have, for example, 45k Arm Pen, when you queue LoMM it says clearly "60% defenses ignored" instead of nothing. In this way people can understand and think "Maybe I have not enough for this dungeon! I should work on it".
Don't know, but it's only my point of view. Too many things are not clear for lots of people and I'm not asking they should me like me or you who search in google or make tests to discover it. A lot of player open only the game, so, it's good if they can find all the informations about the game IN the game.
I went into a REQ alone and got 4 other players who never even been in LoMM. We were all on the mic. I was able to walk them through the dungeon and explain all the mechanics also one end up in my alliance as they wanted to join. All thing you point out about the game being social I just proved how valuable random Q can be for newer players who may not know much or which guild they want to join, etc... joining a random Q you may find yourself a guild, new friends in the game, etc... I've seen this more than once.
When I started playing MMOs random Q allowed me to form many friends, join guilds, etc... You ideals are only self serving and not really benefiting the community where as a random Q system does in fact have many benefits. Players like yourself may not find the benefit from random Q system but they do have a place in a game like NWO.
And it wouldn't be that hard to simply add AD to the end of a non-queued dungeon.
I'm still not a proponent of removing random Q's entirely and I rarely even run outside private Qs. But I wouldn't mind seeing newer attempts at a nonQ dungeon/trial/skirm.
Gamers nowdays (for those who can remember and compare with things like UO or Everquest) want to consume the game, or more precisely devour it as fast as they can more or less like how US "cliché" eat.
Patience is inexistant.
Players want to do things now.
No talk, no walk.
It is the McDonald drive-in model "order-pay-take your food-eat quickly- (and be already hungry 3hours later)"...
What a great time to play MMORPGs... I miss the old 90s and early 2000s, before the WoW juggernault had brought to MMORPG more and more people into what was a "niche".
Nowdays, MMORPGs don't exist anymore.
We only have MMOGs.... RP is long gone...
Whatever. If you think the queue system is responsible for the negative touches in the community, please also look elsewhere too.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
In place of the "k" queue window, we could get a LFG window that lists all the current group adverts, so those logging in to find some quick dungeons can do so and apply to appropriate groups.
just my 2 cents.
With the way things are now between the wonky scaling and dungeons that are just broke or even just have got to a point where they aren't fun anymore players have just stopped running them. There has to be an incentive (positive value) to play them where the players don't come out upside down on cost and/or time.
And despite a lot of the rhetoric in this thread, a HUGE portion of NW is solo players (even those in guilds). NW never has been a typical MMO which is why many people play it. Forcing people to interact with complete strangers might work with some of the NW population but I'm willing to bet a huge portion would just not play anymore.
If NW had a massive player base perhaps it could take such a hit, but right now I really have a gut feeling NW is hanging on by a thread. A push like mentioned above to drive off a good portion of the remaining players would be a nail in the coffin IMO.
The queue system was working just fine before MOD16. We need to get back to a point where there is a real reward for completing them (even players who are endgame or near end game level as well as those who are not) but for this to happen the dungeons themselves have to be tuned so that people with the appropriate IL (or whatever litmus test you want to give them) have a reasonably good chance to not just complete them but to complete them in a timely manner as well.
To be honest I don't mind the dungeon being more accessable. If you look at how the game was on Preview getting all necessary stats up wasn't always easy, so I suppose they also considered players who are slightly undergeared (dungeons takes longer but is not unbeatable). That's ok from a design point of view for a new dungeon, except the fact that it's the only endgame content during Mod 16. Reward-wise I think it would have been nice to get Etchings & Zok boxes, maybe capped to a few per week, since many players farm those and the rewards can be nice. Lots of people were playing Barovia and the dungeon had relatively high requirements. Sure I wish there were some more mechanics but it's not too bad all things considered. They didn't want to repeat the mistake of having many people being unable to beat a new dungeon like in Barovia. That's what ToMM is for.
As time pass between when I was in college and now one thing that has happened within society is the desire to have more things being convenient to allow us to enjoy more things or do more things. This includes MMO games. I look at ESO and they started out with requiring players to acquire everything on all characters and yet now if you complete everything on one character you can acquire it with cash for convenience purposes instead of grinding it out. NWO being a F2P game has similar things.
Random Q's simply add to that flow of convenience and prior to random Q you could randomly still Q for a dungeon. The Q system isn't horrible as I pointed out. It has a purpose.
As for RP in MMOs that is still a thing. You get with a group and your roleplay. There is a difference between role playing in a MMO and simply trying to improve your character. When I played DCUO I had my max character and one of my alts I was in a role playing guild/league and it was fun when I got bored of playing all the end game content. In fact, I have seen a RP guild in NWO on the PS4, so there are still players that role play in MMO.
Today everything is more about here and now and can I get to the same point that another player is at within a short time instead of investing hours upon hours upon hours, which will eventually become months to achieve the same thing they have. Nope, today convenience allows players to get there much quicker as that is what society deemed as the norm.
The current problem in this game is the excessive damage that wizard, rogue and rangers do. I'm not joking either. I got into a group on my cleric running as a healer in LoMM. We had a barbarian, warlock and cleric as our DD. That dungeon went from OMG super easy to being reasonable but not hard. We didn't wipe but you can easily tell that there was no rogue, ranger or wizard in the group. Same group was going to run it again but the cleric needed to go we got a wizard and and shaved almost 5 minutes off our time in LoMM. The devs are addressing this issue but it should have been address prior to mod 16 even launching. Instead it might be address by mod 18.
Things felt a lot better in mod 15, content was actually better. T9 I went in with a tank and healer we one phased Orcus. Yeah T9 with 3 players can one phase Orcus. It took 4 players in prior mods and 5 for most groups. CoDG is just as bad. FBI I can solo no problem on Wizard, didn't even pop a potion. Couldn't do that in mod 15, I needed a few health stones and even died once or twice, not in mod 16.
Game isn't better it just as broke as it was in prior mods.
This is the social aspect of MMOs, the "multiplayer" aspect. Random queues are anything but social I would bet that aside from, "hi, gg, thanks" and other 1 word commentaries, random queues pass in complete silence. That is my experience with them and I used to random queue a lot. I would bet the statistics are something like, "97% of random queues pass by without more than 1 word sentences." There are literally NPCs in single player games which communicate more than players in random queues, they may as well just be bots.
I don't see why a game which markets itself around being social should push itself towards people who are anything but wanting to be social. And how is this any different to advertising in a channel saying, "looking for new players." Furthermore, this is the exception, not the norm. Most people just use the system to avoid having to socialize. The funny thing is, we don't need to hypothetically guess what games without queue systems look like, since they existed in the past and we know how players solve this issue. They solve it by SOCIALIZING. Joining guilds, forming communities and doing the things which are in the spirit of what MMOs should be about. Doing things online in social groups of people. The hilarious thing is, those games were so much more social than MMOs now that its oceans apart. Everyone knew who everyone else was, either by knowing them directly, or by knowing someone who knew someone who knew that person. If you were an HAMSTER, the whole server knew about it and it wasn't good for you. People didn't tolerate that kind of behavior.
Item level requirements for dungeons are stupid and they always have been. Raise them too high and good players who could complete the dungeon with less are upset, lower them too low and bad players who can't do them with that much complain, even if there is a group somewhere which can do them with the minimum. There is no perfect threshold. Getting rid of them and the queue system is the start to creating a much better MMO environment.