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[PC] Bugged Self Buffs on the Asterdahl Classes

rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,370 Arc User
The following self buffs are confirmed to be adding to the Critical Severity/Combat Advantage portion of the damage formula, rather than being a multiplicative buff in the buff category of damage.

Barbarian
-Trample the Fallen
-Raging Strikes
-Battlerage (the mechanic)
-Relentless Battlerage

Fighter:

-Vengeance above 50%
-Combat Superiority
-Determination
-Enduring Vengeance

(yes, I rechecked these today, still bugged)

Cleric

-Doomslayer
-Divine Equilibrium

The following self bugs are confirmed to be on live
.

Coincidentally (or not so coincidentally?), the known instances of the bug are on all the classes that @asterdahl handled in the Mod 16 rework (GF/GWF/DC). I am gathering all the bugged self buffs I know into one thread so asterdahl doesn't need to go into separate threads to figure out what's going on. If he wants the proof, the bug reports listing the bugs are linked below.

I do note that not every self buff was mentioned on these classes. I didn't have the patience to check those other buffs, but I would bet they are bugged by being additive to CA/Severity as well.
____

Individual Threads of Proof:

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1250926/barbarian-damage-bonuses-bugged

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1250399/pc-fighter-bugs-self-buffs-incorrectly-calculating-heavy-slash-tooltip-incorrect

https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1250929/pc-doomslayer-and-divine-equilibrium-additive-instead-of-multiplicative

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Comments

  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    Making such kind of mistakes is not as bad as not placing fixing them as #1 priority after they being discovered. This bug on fighter has been reported since a while and I've not seen a single attempt fixing in preview patch notes.
    I could accept a low QA engagement if devs actions would be more responsive towards players reporting.
  • lordaeoloslordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    has seekers vengeance on the Ranger been tested? It may be in all the classes that have feats/ class features that add damage multipliers... possibly working as intended?
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  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,370 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    has seekers vengeance on the Ranger been tested? It may be in all the classes that have feats/ class features that add damage multipliers... possibly working as intended?

    Most of the Ranger stuff I tried works. I checked Seeker's, Throw Caution, Deft Strikes, and Twin Blade Storm. If skeptical, check below.

    I don't feel like testing every Ranger buff in the interest of time and don't have everything unlocked on a live Ranger, so I can't test some of the higher end stuff on the roleplayer path (What's Hunter?).

    Also worth noting that according to Sharpedgelord Testing™, Wizard buffs like Arcane Stacks, Controlled Momentum, amd Chilling Presence are working correctly.

    With the given that all the CW stuff works and that a good portion of the Ranger stuff works correctly, we can make the logical assumption that noworries classes (HR/CW/TR/SW) have correctly programmed buffs.

    Though if anyone can provide proof stating otherwise, they are feel free to disprove that notion.

    _____
    Conditions were naked, guild ArmorPen Boon, 84% Crit Sev, effective 9500 (10000 CA-500 dummy Awareness), 100 fixed damage weapons, and 16 STR.

    Seeker's

    Expected damage if bugged:

    100*0.25*1.04*(1+0.84+0.0950+0.10)=52.91

    Expected damage if correct:

    100*0.25*1.04*(1+0.84+0.0950)*1.1=55.341

    This is the result:


    And I can assure you I was standing in the correct spot to get Seeker's Vengeance.



    Throw Caution

    I don't think anyone uses Throw Caution anymore, but it is calculated correctly. Used Seeker's for this test, in addition to Throw Caution, Crit, and companion for CA.

    Expected damage if bugged:

    100*0.25*1.04*(1+0.84+0.0950+0.1+0.1)=55.51

    Expected damage if correct:

    100*0.25*1.04*(1+0.84+0.0950)*1.1*1.1=60.8751

    Result:


    Deft Strikes
    Used Steel Breeze for the test, but same conditions of before are held constant. I couldn't get the numbers to exactly match up, but the damage is very close to the buffed damage.

    Expected Damage if bugged:

    100*1.5*1.04*(1+0.84+0.0950+0.1+0.1)=333.06

    Expected Damage if Correct:
    100*1.5*1.04*(1+.84+0.095)*1.1*1.1=365.2506

    Result:


    Twin Blade Storm:
    Used Clear the Ground. Since it's Lightning damage, need to use magic damage and account for 12 INT rather than my STR. Used Seeker's, got a Crit, had CA, and had companion CA wall.

    Expected damage if bugged:
    100*0.20*1.03*(1+0.84+0.095+0.1+0.08)=43.569

    Expected damage if correct:
    100*0.20*1.03*1.08*1.1*(1+0.84+0.095)=47.3548

    Result:



  • katamaster81899katamaster81899 Member Posts: 1,157 Arc User
    If these adjustments are made, will TOMM difficulty be adjusted to account for it?
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  • nitocris83nitocris83 Member, Cryptic Developer, Administrator Posts: 4,093 Community Manager
    Hey folks, jumping in this thread to let folks know that internal discussions are happening regarding classes. I will be monitoring this topic, especially once the trial hits live, more folks attempt it, and we start getting internal data. Changes to classes aren't decisions made rashly or impulsively so we will setup Q&As and continue to check in on player discussions among multiple channels.

    As always, please keep feedback constructive. Emotions can run high on these topics on all sides but it helps when we can all focus on facts and not inflammatory speculation or personal attacks.
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,298 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    rjc9000 said:


    So, tell us, where on any of the Mod 16 Official Feedback Threads was it mentioned that:

    -buffs are supposed to be additive?

    And especially:

    -buffs are supposed to be included in the same damage multiplier as Critical Severity and Combat Advantage?

    These are decisions I would say the devs are free to make without seeking any form of approval from the playerbase :) It however would be better if they informed us of such major changes.

    I assume this change will be valid for all +dps buffs(also from gear), not just the self buffs that OP posted about.

    It is fairly obvious that multiplicative dps buffs are bad - they makes the value of such buffs increase exponentially the more buffs you have. Things easily get out of control that way. My personal opinion is this is a needed and overdue change.

    There however could be a discussion about how additive dps buffs are implemented, or rather what base damage they refer to.

    Cryptic has chosen to let additive dps buffs refer to base damage before CA and crit severity. They could just as well let additive dps buffs refer to base damage including CA and crit severity, although that would introduce a small exponential effect by itself. It however would make dps buffs more valuable.

    The way it is done now reduces the value of +dps buffs dramatically.

    But either way, when his is implemented properly, of course there need to be a balancing pass to the classes. They are currently tuned with the current situation in mind, so cannot just remove that dps and say sorry :)



  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    weapons * magnitude * (1 + power / 100000) * ( 1 + crit * severity ) * (1 + ca) * ( arp_resistance) * (1- targetdeflectChance * deflectSeverity) * ( 1 + SUM OF ALL DAMAGE BUFFS) * (1 + SUM OF ALL DEBUFFS)

    This is how additive buffs should work.

    If when things where they belong too over-perform, then the can be adjusted, if it's lower CA ratio, severity, or adjusting the buffs or magnitudes.
    But the entire things should have at least some consistency and logic first.

    This please: logical formulas = easier balance too. Just mind not to fix everything without coming with balancing compensation too.
    Have a nice day.
  • rapidstar#3272 rapidstar Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    The only classes I play are GWF and paladin. How much would this nerf affect TR/HR/CW ?
  • leviatano#7198 leviatano Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    I hope that these changes will hit neverwinter before console release of mod 17. If not, no one would bring a DC or GF as dps in ToMM. People are investing on dps path, that is a whole different thing from the healer or tank one. So, DC's, GF's, GWF's' and SW's deserves the same love as damage dealers.
  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    ...

    Is this on live or preview? because saying warlock is overperforming on live is probably the biggest joke i've heard in some time
    Post edited by rev#7881 on
  • bgl#5946 bgl Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Please give me a real world example, how this huge number of multiplicative damage amounts to an unfair advantage for the warlock. (I mean, honestly, 10x 20% ???)

    If you argue with fantasy numbers for fixing a problem, I get the feeling the problem is fantasy, too.
    Post edited by bgl#5946 on
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,298 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    The way additive dps buffs is implemented on Live now reduces the value of +3% dps to less than 1% actual dps:
    (base 1 + CA 1 + crit sev 1,5 + dpsbuff 0.03) = 3,53
    0.03/3,53 = 0.0085

    3% nominal dps buff corresponds to a 0.85% dps increase.

    Assuming 200k power, that is equivalent to 3000 * 0.85 = 2550 power increase.

    With the additive dps buffs, the new mod 16 gear will be at least close to being competitive with the old dps buff gear.
    With multiplicative dps buffs the old dps buff gear is a lightyear ahead as it will be worth 3% or more depending on how many dps buffs you can stack.

    So the multiplicative buff error also is at the bottom of Cryptic missing the target of phasing out the old dps gear.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User

    ...

    Is this on live or preview? because saying warlock is overperforming on live is probably the biggest joke i've heard in some time

    I don't think this is because its overperforming but because it's bugged. hopefully they will adjust damage to be at least what it is already.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 341 Arc User
    I like the additive formulas which is what should be happening instead of the multiplicative formulas of the past. Having those classes have those results does make a lot of sense of why they are doing so well. If memory serves the changes were being done at the same time as the issues with scaling. I can easily see oversights happening at that time. I am patient for fixes but it looks like if they remove those buffs we will have to see where those classes fall at in terms of the dps pecking order. Balancing will probably be a never ending task.
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  • theraxin#5169 theraxin Member Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    I see the theoretical advantage of making it additive for the long term, but making it fixed for certain classes and push fixing for others until more data is gathered will make things pretty miserable for the fixed ones until that later time.

    And because there is a direct correlation between the underperforming classes and those classes that got fixed, how about reverting the fix until mod18, where more data will be gathered and the problem is more understood?
  • dlynn334dlynn334 Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    At the end of the day, the Barb, DC, and GF were not up to par with the CW, HR, and TR. So I understand player frustrations which is acceptable. The SW is stuck in the middle of this so I do have some concern what will happen in the future. Either way I have invested to much time and resources into this class so I will ride through both the good times and bad. Have fun with release!
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    @nitocris83 just as a heads up. the facebook and reddit forums are blowing up wiht this. various facebook groups have a ton of people trying to sell their toons over this. I would like to suggest damage control of some sort :) some sort of statement assuring people that you don't really intend on nerfing without rebalancing damages. honestly... the viral on this is worse than I remember the viral for mod 16. people aren't taking it well at all.
This discussion has been closed.