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OFFICIAL M17: Tower of the Mad Mage Feedback

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  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    mongol69 said:

    So, I take it warlocks are non viable as dps even at endgame for tomm and possibly delegated as a tanks healbot, while another pally or cleric could do the same job, but better?

    they are very strong healers for the new trial.
  • darkheart#6758 darkheart Member Posts: 274 Arc User
    > @dolrey said:
    > 1) It is very good that developers decided to make new content hard and challenging. More players will have more content to play. It is very good.
    >
    > 2) I haven't tested TOMM by myself but I have watched some videos. And I found out one regularity: no resource management at all (as it was before class reworks in m16). I mean yes there are a lot of different interesting mechanics but most of them are like "dodge or get oneshot". Does this mean that plan of developers to move away from broken buffs and oneshot mechanics was not successful?
    >
    > Currently now in PvE healing is very very strong. Healer with relatively high item level can restore full health by just one spell. Paladins can permanently give +100% hp to everyone what is just broken and should be limited by about 30% of target's health. Well.. all classes had changed but seems like nothing changed. You still stay on full health or dead instantly. Not good.
    >
    > TOMM is not bad but I just want to see more resource management in the future in addition to all those mechanis. Health should jump up and down. It should not just be fully restored instantly as it is now because it makes battle less smart.
    >
    > Probably you should take top defencive tank and top defencive healer and measure how many damage tank can absorb per second thank to selfhealing, his shield and healer. And you will see that it's about 50% hp per second by all sources or maybe even more.
    >
    > So you see that nothing really changed. Players still have broken defencive abilities wich should be tuned.
    >
    > Ps: here I talk only about bis or close to bis characters with all available in the game different items/features/mechanics. Not about 10k characters. And not about 26k dd tanks with 300-400khp in tanky paragon.

    To your 1st point: how is making hard, challenging content going to allow for more players to run more content?

    It is going to be the exact opposite, most of the playerbase won't have the gear score to get into Tomm (on console) and because classes are still not truly balanced a lot of people won't be invited to run this content.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    > @darkheart#6758 said:
    > > @dolrey said:
    > > 1) It is very good that developers decided to make new content hard and challenging. More players will have more content to play. It is very good.
    > >
    > > 2) I haven't tested TOMM by myself but I have watched some videos. And I found out one regularity: no resource management at all (as it was before class reworks in m16). I mean yes there are a lot of different interesting mechanics but most of them are like "dodge or get oneshot". Does this mean that plan of developers to move away from broken buffs and oneshot mechanics was not successful?
    > >
    > > Currently now in PvE healing is very very strong. Healer with relatively high item level can restore full health by just one spell. Paladins can permanently give +100% hp to everyone what is just broken and should be limited by about 30% of target's health. Well.. all classes had changed but seems like nothing changed. You still stay on full health or dead instantly. Not good.
    > >
    > > TOMM is not bad but I just want to see more resource management in the future in addition to all those mechanis. Health should jump up and down. It should not just be fully restored instantly as it is now because it makes battle less smart.
    > >
    > > Probably you should take top defencive tank and top defencive healer and measure how many damage tank can absorb per second thank to selfhealing, his shield and healer. And you will see that it's about 50% hp per second by all sources or maybe even more.
    > >
    > > So you see that nothing really changed. Players still have broken defencive abilities wich should be tuned.
    > >
    > > Ps: here I talk only about bis or close to bis characters with all available in the game different items/features/mechanics. Not about 10k characters. And not about 26k dd tanks with 300-400khp in tanky paragon.
    >
    > To your 1st point: how is making hard, challenging content going to allow for more players to run more content?
    >
    > It is going to be the exact opposite, most of the playerbase won't have the gear score to get into Tomm (on console) and because classes are still not truly balanced a lot of people won't be invited to run this content.

    No challenging and hard content = no endgame = ppl that reached engame stop playing.
  • poisd2strike#7598 poisd2strike Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    mongol69 said:

    So, I take it warlocks are non viable as dps even at endgame for tomm and possibly delegated as a tanks healbot, while another pally or cleric could do the same job, but better?

    they are very strong healers for the new trial.
    While that may be the case (I don't know, since I play on Console), it is simply unacceptable that DPS Warlock is not a viable DPS class for ToMM. @asterdahl stated that all DPS classes would have the same potential for damage output in Mod 16. That is clearly not the case. So, either DPS Warlock needs to be buffed (very preferable), other DPS classes need to be nerfed (definitely not preferable) or ToMM needs to be somehow altered for DPS Warlock to be viable. I and no doubt many other DPS Warlock players have spent many millions of AD improving our DPS Warlocks. We won't be relegated to having to play Healer and having to spend many millions more AD (for new companions and other items) just to get our outgoing healing to 60% or greater for the one piece of content that apparently requires that much outgoing healing. That is simply unacceptable.
  • lordaeoloslordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User

    tom#6998 said:

    mongol69 said:

    So, I take it warlocks are non viable as dps even at endgame for tomm and possibly delegated as a tanks healbot, while another pally or cleric could do the same job, but better?

    they are very strong healers for the new trial.
    While that may be the case (I don't know, since I play on Console), it is simply unacceptable that DPS Warlock is not a viable DPS class for ToMM. @asterdahl stated that all DPS classes would have the same potential for damage output in Mod 16. That is clearly not the case. So, either DPS Warlock needs to be buffed (very preferable), other DPS classes need to be nerfed (definitely not preferable) or ToMM needs to be somehow altered for DPS Warlock to be viable. I and no doubt many other DPS Warlock players have spent many millions of AD improving our DPS Warlocks. We won't be relegated to having to play Healer and having to spend many millions more AD (for new companions and other items) just to get our outgoing healing to 60% or greater for the one piece of content that apparently requires that much outgoing healing. That is simply unacceptable.
    The measure should be: "If I take 6 of any single DPS class, can I clear this content?" if that answer is no, then that class really isn't viable as DPS. It's not just Warlocks that are in this state, Fighters, Barbarians, Clerics that want to go DPS also suffer from a lack of being able to compete, and in their current state they are not able able to meet the DPS checks to clear ToMM.

    I guess the good news is that the "pure" DPS classes all seem to be viable (though the Ranger is questionable), and the multirole classes are all viable in their non-DPS roles; which means each class can fit a valuable role, just perhaps not the role you want to play for or have invested in...

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  • mongol69mongol69 Member Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Many started warlocks as dps as per the class description and role. During the owlbear nerf many switched over to templock to be viable for runs and devs acknowledged there was a need to fix the dps role again. The last few mods warlock dps was competitive and viable.

    Many do not run as healers, did not want to run as healers since, well, the class was designated dps from the beginning, have invested in dps role and run as dps all along. Just like damnation which is now the foundation for dps role now was minimally used in any previous mods, let alone for main dps warlocks.

    If I wanted to run support as healer, I run my pally or cleric. If I want to tank I run my pally. That's why I made them, to run the assigned roles they were given in the beggining.
  • cherryman1cherryman1 Member Posts: 337 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    mongol69 said:

    Many started warlocks as dps as per the class description and role. During the owlbear nerf many switched over to templock to be viable for runs and devs acknowledged there was a need to fix the dps role again. The last few mods warlock dps was competitive and viable.



    Many do not run as healers, did not want to run as healers since, well, the class was designated dps from the beginning, have invested in dps role and run as dps all along. Just like damnation which is now the foundation for dps role now was minimally used in any previous mods, let alone for main dps warlocks.



    If I wanted to run support as healer, I run my pally or cleric. If I want to tank I run my pally. That's why I made them, to run the assigned roles they were given in the beggining.

    This same thing is happening to the Fighter and barbarian classes in the game. Cleric are still the main healers in the game but the shields that OP can create to me look to be a HUGE issue with balance on the healers side.

    Most players who have a dps capable setup want to play as a dps and should be viable.
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  • b4t1b4tb4t1b4t Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    I am glad for the new challenge but as one said only a limited amount of the players will have the score to enter the dungeon and a limited will have the stats to finish the trail.
    End Game to be honest is not all that its cracked up to be.
    When you reach that point you sit and que for dungeons back to back why because nothing else to do because no content besides the dungeon thats present.
    Right now thats lair of the mad mage and next week that will be tower of the mad mage and at some point yes people get tired of running the same thing over and over again.
    If only they would provide more actual content things might be better. Still yet I am looking forward to this trail.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,247 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Is it possible for double Hypothermia to remain random instead of targeted at the healers? The original mechanic was more interesting as it required a bit of on the spot thinking.
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    In simple terms, if I have to take my warlock in tomm as a healer, I'll never run it. Simple.

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  • giz#2086 giz Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    tom#6998 said:

    mongol69 said:

    So, I take it warlocks are non viable as dps even at endgame for tomm and possibly delegated as a tanks healbot, while another pally or cleric could do the same job, but better?

    they are very strong healers for the new trial.
    Want to know something? I hate Soulweaver and refuse to play it on my Warlock, i built a DPS class for FOUR years, i want to play DPS, not beg for a spot for TOMM as a healer. And lots of Warlocks were built for DPS, not everyone use a soulweaver loadout. It's a shame devs only wants a trial for certain classes, they lied when they said that all DPS should be able to DPS just as well as any other class with only DPS pargons. TOMM is only for "PURE" DPS classes.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    > @giz#2086 said:
    > So, I take it warlocks are non viable as dps even at endgame for tomm and possibly delegated as a tanks healbot, while another pally or cleric could do the same job, but better?
    >
    > they are very strong healers for the new trial.
    >
    > Want to know something? I hate Soulweaver and refuse to play it on my Warlock, i built a DPS class for FOUR years, i want to play DPS, not beg for a spot for TOMM as a healer. And lots of Warlocks were built for DPS, not everyone use a soulweaver loadout. It's a shame devs only wants a trial for certain classes, they lied when they said that all DPS should be able to DPS just as well as any other class with only DPS pargons. TOMM is only for "PURE" DPS classes.

    I know man, i also want to play my warlock as dps, and its a shame the devs dont balance the dps classes. I just wanted to say that healsw isnt as useless as ppl make it out to be.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,391 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Barbies, Fighters, Warlocks, need a single target balance pass. This is not trial specific, but if the content has such severe DPS checks and rage timers, then there should be more attention and priority to make the classes as equally viable as possible.

    All the class changes in m16 were to facilitate this balance, then lets see this happen..
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  • theskalltheskall Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Alright I don't usually post here but I guess someone has to say what I'm going to put here so let's just jump straight to the point:
    If you're here crying about how hard this trial is and how it needs to be nerfed, this content is not meant for you to do.
    And now with a bit more detailed explanation for why you are not supposed to do it:
    Endgame content is meant for endgame players. This means, as the name suggests, not meant for everyone
    I keep seeing people posting in all kinds of channels "HDPS LFG whatever". I'm not sure who decided you're a HDPS but about 90% of the players who I see saying that are nowhere close to being HDPS simply because their damage is low. Low damage has no place in the new trial because this entire thing is one big Dps check. You will fail and you will make your group wipe.
    Just because you show up on the top 5 in the paingiver chart in LOMM doesn't mean you are experienced or HDPS or even just endgame player. LOMM is not endgame content. It can be done in 30 minutes with only 2 people in a group.
    If a group proves it can be done (and it was), you have no reason to cry about how it needs to be nerfed. All classes are welcomed in this trial but keep in mind that if you're a hybrid class (sw DC gf gwf op) you will come with a specific role. Hybrid class are not dps classes and are not supposed to be. If you didn't realize it by now, I'm happy to bring you these news just in time before the trial goes live.
    Instead of sitting here and practicing on trying to get this content nerfed (and it won't get nerfed so you're wasting time) , go read the guide and learn how to play.
    I can't make it any clearer: endgame players means players who reached endgame. LOMM is not that. Get your stats capped, use BIS gear, boost your power to above 200k and get your HP to 350k. Then start even considering to use that H when saying you're a DPS who looks for a group.
    And please, if you're here to complain about something you just can't reach, don't blame others for it. Just take a minute and think "maybe I'm just not there yet".

    Thank you and have a great week.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    > @theskall said:
    > Alright I don't usually post here but I guess someone has to say what I'm going to put here so let's just jump straight to the point:
    > If you're here crying about how hard this trial is and how it needs to be nerfed, this content is not meant for you to do.
    > And now with a bit more detailed explanation for why you are not supposed to do it:
    > Endgame content is meant for endgame players. This means, as the name suggests, not meant for everyone
    > I keep seeing people posting in all kinds of channels "HDPS LFG whatever". I'm not sure who decided you're a HDPS but about 90% of the players who I see saying that are nowhere close to being HDPS simply because their damage is low. Low damage has no place in the new trial because this entire thing is one big Dps check. You will fail and you will make your group wipe.
    > Just because you show up on the top 5 in the paingiver chart in LOMM doesn't mean you are experienced or HDPS or even just endgame player. LOMM is not endgame content. It can be done in 30 minutes with only 2 people in a group.
    > If a group proves it can be done (and it was), you have no reason to cry about how it needs to be nerfed. All classes are welcomed in this trial but keep in mind that if you're a hybrid class (sw DC gf gwf op) you will come with a specific role. Hybrid class are not dps classes and are not supposed to be. If you didn't realize it by now, I'm happy to bring you these news just in time before the trial goes live.
    > Instead of sitting here and practicing on trying to get this content nerfed (and it won't get nerfed so you're wasting time) , go read the guide and learn how to play.
    > I can't make it any clearer: endgame players means players who reached endgame. LOMM is not that. Get your stats capped, use BIS gear, boost your power to above 200k and get your HP to 350k. Then start even considering to use that H when saying you're a DPS who looks for a group.
    > And please, if you're here to complain about something you just can't reach, don't blame others for it. Just take a minute and think "maybe I'm just not there yet".
    >
    > Thank you and have a great week.

    Dont equate complaining that the trial is to easy with critisism that some dps paths, despite the devs stating they intend for all to be somewhat on par, are to weak atm. I can practice all i want on my dps warlock, and befor u complain, i run the trial nearly every day on pre, my CW does atleast 50% more dmg then my SW. With how the dps checks in the trial work atm, i cant burden them with bringing m warlock as a dps, and thats a shame.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Hybrid class? Didn't we allready got over the point that every class got a role or two, and both should be viable and competitive?

    From what I read and saw, there is a significant difference in outcome, running with:
    Soulweaver/Devout , Hellbringer, Blademaster, Arbiter, Dreadnaught + 2 Tank compared to
    Oathkeeper+ xy healer, 4 CW/TR + 2 tank
    Wich will be the next predominant request for classes... so I build up my oathkeeper and build up my CW actually.
    If that's the consequence you pull out of actual classbalance, there is definitely something wrong.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    theskall said:

    Hybrid class on a dps role should not be able to compete with a class which had 2 dps paths. I'm not sure how you think that it makes sense to give a class 2 roles and make them best on both.

    If they make cleric best both on dps and on healing how do you think it's going to look in the game? Yea, everyone will play a cleric. If you want to play support and dps on the same class, you shouldn't be able to be best on both, and not close to best. If you're good at healing, you should be bad on dps. If you're good on dps, you should be bad on tanking/healing. That's how it works.

    and also, Warlock on DPS path is bad at healing, and Warlock on Heal path is bad at dpsing, same goes for Cleric, Barbarian, Fighter, so i dont see how your argument makes sense.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    My Paladin is overpowered healing and good in tanking, please devs take notice of building a class with two viable choices, simply lol, nothing else to comment.
  • theskalltheskall Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    > @schietindebux said:
    > My Paladin is overpowered healing and good in tanking, please devs take notice of building a class with two viable choices, simply lol, nothing else to comment.

    Did you test mod17 on preview?
    Healers were nerfed because it was too easy to heal exactly for this reason. And they increased the damage halaster deals because it was too easy to survive it
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    theskall said:

    > @schietindebux said:

    > My Paladin is overpowered healing and good in tanking, please devs take notice of building a class with two viable choices, simply lol, nothing else to comment.



    Did you test mod17 on preview?

    Healers were nerfed because it was too easy to heal exactly for this reason. And they increased the damage halaster deals because it was too easy to survive it

    by your logic they should make either the Tank paladin or the Heal paladin so bad that u wouldnt ever take that class to run the trial with.
  • theskalltheskall Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    > @tom#6998 said:
    > > @schietindebux said:
    >
    > > My Paladin is overpowered healing and good in tanking, please devs take notice of building a class with two viable choices, simply lol, nothing else to comment.
    >
    >
    >
    > Did you test mod17 on preview?
    >
    > Healers were nerfed because it was too easy to heal exactly for this reason. And they increased the damage halaster deals because it was too easy to survive it
    >
    > by your logic they should make either the Tank paladin or the Heal paladin so bad that u wouldnt ever take that class to run the trial with.

    The changes were made and I think they were fair. We all agreed that a nerf was needed for the healers.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    theskall said:

    > @tom#6998 said:

    > > @schietindebux said:

    >

    > > My Paladin is overpowered healing and good in tanking, please devs take notice of building a class with two viable choices, simply lol, nothing else to comment.

    >

    >

    >

    > Did you test mod17 on preview?

    >

    > Healers were nerfed because it was too easy to heal exactly for this reason. And they increased the damage halaster deals because it was too easy to survive it

    >

    > by your logic they should make either the Tank paladin or the Heal paladin so bad that u wouldnt ever take that class to run the trial with.



    The changes were made and I think they were fair. We all agreed that a nerf was needed for the healers.

    how about u adress what i wrote when u quote me? and not some random stuff that has nothing to do with it? Or are u saying that Healpaladin is so bad that u shouldnt take them with u for trial runs?
  • theskalltheskall Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    Thank you, I'm currently happy with how paladins are at the moment as a full support class. I just think that warlocks, fighters, barbarians and clerics shouldn't cry about their dps being low and ask to increase it to be able to compete with an actual dps class
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    TBH it's quite a bit I don't read posts invoking nerfs to trial, main point is somewhere else indeed: I would be more than glad to bring my soulweaver if there wasn't just a "secondary" healer spot while 6 for dps.
    In every pre-TotMM content endgamers were allowed to make parties in every possible combination, the incoming requirement on every class to be at top tier, with only the 3 dps/dps classes being viable is removing any purpose in M16 introduced "versatilty". And again, if dps/dps classes have smth to argue should be about not having a second role themselves (controller should be perfect for them, or even some lazy tank/healer spec are thinkable), the self claiming about having to be the only viable ones are kinda selfish and shortsighted.
    Don't need to be a genius on how current state is bringing unbalances as we got:
    - 3 viable classes fighting for 2 tank spots (pally, barb and fighter)
    - 1 class for "main" healer role (pally)
    - 2 classes for "secondary" healer (warlock and cleric)
    - 3 classes only (on 8 possible) for 6 dps spot (wizard, rogue and ranger)
    I use to set several runs, but will avoid to team up for TotMM in current state, as I would be disgusted by myself having to refuse my cleric friend because I already took the 2nd healer spot, my barb guildie because I filled tank spots and tbh I don't want even think about the pain on getting 6 capable dps having to choose from 3 classes only. In other words the great work behind making a trial will get wasted. A challenging content should have skills and gear only as eligibility criteria.
    I'm aware balancing is in process, but having it reaching an acceptable level in weeks/months/mods can't be acceptable, impact on economy and game itself could be devastating.
    There's still time for 2+ patches before trial to hit live, but starting to get skeptic: as usual behind great ideas (M16's themselves were great) a poor implementation design shows up.
    Also hope that limited resources available won't hurt won't hurt trial itself, with the result of turning it into another easy raid in order to make every dps class viable.
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