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OFFICIAL M17: Tower of the Mad Mage Feedback

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  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    My main issue is them keeping it achievable for most of the player base in the time period where the rewards from said content is still relevant to people playing the game. If say in mod19 they give us items for basically free that exceed the usefulness of what can be gotten in ToMM, how many people will even bother with running the trial?

    And I sort of doubt that by Mod18 more than say 50% of the playerbase will even have a character that is 24k ilevel, when I doubt now that more than 60% have characters much higher than 21k.
  • rickcase276rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    I have little to no issue with ToMM staying as it is, or getting even harder, if that is what the developers are intending it to be. If they only ever intend that less than 10% of the playerbase will run the dungeon, then that is all good. It all comes down to the intended audience, and not everything in the game has to be accessible to everyone playing the game. And so you know, I already have a character that could run the trial, if I choose to when I unlock it.

    But we do know that by the time 80-90% of the people playing the game get 1 character to over 24k ilevel that the rewards for the trial will be obsolete, its been that way since about mod 5-6.
  • cust0mxcust0mx Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited July 2019
    We need more things happening in phase 1, the change of pace between phase 1 and 3 is too big. Not much to do in phase 1 its kinda boring tbh.
    Suggestion: inscrease the rate of tornado/eruption ect

    The portal are just a little annoying and can be put to a better use.

    Suggestion: add more portals or/and make them more punishing.
    Type of mechanics you could do is having 3 different colors for portals (purple white and red to match the elemental theme) if you touch one portal you get debuffed or a DoT, you need to find the same type of portal again to remove the debuff (if you enter through a white portal you need to come out of a red or purple one so its not too easy to go back inside)

    The +/- links are not punishing enough in phase 1
    , please add some spikes to the edge of the room that removes at least 50% of you HP if you touch them. So ppl have more incentive to do the mechanic the right way instead of just spreading no matter what. This will push players to be better for phase 3 when you would fall off the platform is you fail.


    Not 100% sure if its intended, but the lava is one shoting non tank class in phase 3 (600k base damage), i wanted to break my chain so i put a foot into the magna and i kept on being one shoted by the damage after scrolling, maybe tune it down so we can at least survive 1 or 2sec inside
    Post edited by cust0mx on
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 307 Arc User
    Please release a "baby" version of the trial (with of course less rewards) but still fun for the players that want to try new things at every mod.
    I know it cannot be issued at the same time of the master one (due to calendar issues) but it would definitely be great if it was launched during the same mod.

    Because you know ... players'retention.
  • viraaalviraaal Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    cust0mx said:


    Not 100% sure if its intended, but the lava is one shoting non tank class in phase 3 (600k base damage), i wanted to break my chain so i put a foot into the magna and i kept on being one shoted by the damage after scrolling, maybe tune it down so we can at least survive 1 or 2sec inside

    I second this, if 2 people have to break the searing chains dot by spreading, this will lead to them going to the edge of the inner circle and border onto the lava ring. If the player takes a few hits from the chains and then takes an extra step going into the fire, this will lead to death. Upon being revived you will chain die and not be able to escape.

    I would suggest either making the time between the hits be slower allowing someone the ability to escape it, or have the damage ramp up the longer you stand in it, allowing someone the ability to escape, but also punish the people who stand in it for too long. Alternatively make it dodgeable however I feel this is an easily manipulated escape.
  • greyjay1greyjay1 Member Posts: 163 Arc User
    viraaal said:

    cust0mx said:


    Not 100% sure if its intended, but the lava is one shoting non tank class in phase 3 (600k base damage), i wanted to break my chain so i put a foot into the magna and i kept on being one shoted by the damage after scrolling, maybe tune it down so we can at least survive 1 or 2sec inside

    I second this, if 2 people have to break the searing chains dot by spreading, this will lead to them going to the edge of the inner circle and border onto the lava ring. If the player takes a few hits from the chains and then takes an extra step going into the fire, this will lead to death. Upon being revived you will chain die and not be able to escape.

    I would suggest either making the time between the hits be slower allowing someone the ability to escape it, or have the damage ramp up the longer you stand in it, allowing someone the ability to escape, but also punish the people who stand in it for too long. Alternatively make it dodgeable however I feel this is an easily manipulated escape.
    Adding to this:
    Bug: Searing Chains
    If one of the 2 chained players dies before the chain brakes, the chain will disappear, but after the dead player revives both will get chained and damaged again.

    We had this happen a couple of times, I don't know if it's 100% reproduceable.
  • johnny#4757 johnny Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    Feedback: I would suggest adding more achievments like '(Personal) Do not get hit by [some ability/mechanic]' or 'Finish the trial before X minutes', giving some cool stuff for those that complete it
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,312 Arc User
    edited July 2019

    Feedback: I would suggest adding more achievments like '(Personal) Do not get hit by [some ability/mechanic]' or 'Finish the trial before X minutes', giving some cool stuff for those that complete it

    To add to that:



    The cape for no deaths is an idea, but not everyone like those capes or capes in general.

    I would suggest adding a tab to a char page (which is visible to others who inspect), with 'medals', for special achievements, fast runs, no deaths, finished at all.
    They can be grayed out placeholders with different type (gold, sliver, etc.) or number of stars / stripes set in each place.
    For example ToMM can have a place for a trophy / medal with the simplest for completing and with various stars / variants for time, no deaths etc..
    Many games (and real world) medals use these models

    This can add bragging points to people interested, add interest and increase content lifetime.
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • viraaalviraaal Member Posts: 70 Arc User
    As a tank main, can we have other / more reasons to run this trial? I see the rewards from the collections, and none of them really appeal to me. The new weapons have increased weapon damage, thats a pro, however the set bonus will always be down on a tank in the new trial as you will always have to shield the annihilate attacks and constant arcane blasts, so for me the weapons are not really a big deal.
    The rings also acquired from this trial are worthless too, as I can already cap every defence stat with current obtainable gear from module 16. Meaning the rings from the trial dont help me except maybe allow me to get a tiny bit more offensive stats, which once again for a tank are meaningless.
    I came back to this game in module 17 to play this new trial, however looking at what it gives me as a player, after beating it once, theres no real reward that will benefit my character. I dont know if this is because I currently find the trial on preview trivial, and thus im looking for things to complain about, but I dont know how much I want to be playing it, and thats a real shame, as there is a lot of potential within this trial.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User


    A lot of games design content explicitly around the 0.1%. WoW does it, Path of Exile does it. In a recent dev post in Path of Exile they explicitly said they spent around 30% of their development time designing content that only 0.1% of their player base ever sees due to how hard it is. Both of these games are significantly more successful than NW is, so it seems to be a working model. Believe it or not, if you give people something to work towards, they have a stronger incentive to play.


    PoE is effectively a solo game, with some sort of ineffective barter-trading system and a chat channel that’s disused and closed by default. And it resets to zero every 13 weeks.

    It doesn’t require people to play in groups, at specific levels, or to fill specific rolls. Things like class balance are irrelevant, and frankly, the overall game balance of that thing is completely out-of-whack. But as a solo game, it doesn’t matter.

    So maybe they can make content for 0.1% of their playerbase, to let those people puff up their egos and think they’re making others feel jealous -- or more generously, provide an example for others to aspire to -- but for the most part that’s isolated, ignorable, and therefore mostly harmless.

    NW is a much more social game, and so the effect of “0.1% content” is not to inspire solo players to aspire to that level (assuming the best of games like PoE), but rather to create fear of ostracization if you don’t “measure up” in gear or skill to other people’s expectations. (Even when such people don’t themselves meet such expectation.)

    I can’t tell you how many tanks and healers and even some dps I’ve seen who quit parties before anyone can grief them or kick them, or who offer to do so, leaving me to say, “nah you can get it, it just takes some practice. Let’s try again.” I’m sure many of those soon quit the game as well. Judging by the turnover in guild rosters, and the number of inactive players on my friends list, quite a few do.

    Or, on the other side, there are the players who think they’re “elite” but aren’t, and so won’t coordinate with the group, go do their own suicidal things, and “hamster” the whole thing up for everybody. That’s always a great way to fail.

    All that doesn’t even include all the elitist filters that come before, like “hdps” and “exp” and IL requirements that people put in their “lfm” calls and so on.

    None of that inspires people to work toward a goal, like “endgame” content might in a solo game like PoE. Rather, it discourages them, and it discourages everyone else when each individual’s “fear of failure” causes the whole group to fail.

    Even if “good healers” can theoretically complete something, discouraging more “mediocre healers” is the last thing this game needs. That doesn’t just make the healers quit, it makes everyone who can’t get a queue to pop quit.

    Now, to be fair, it’s maybe 1 in 10 players who are actually obnoxious enough to grief or kick other players who don’t measure up to their standards, but that’s enough to cause the fear which creates the overall problem, and that obnoxiousness in those who have it is enabled by this notion of “endgame 0.1% content.”
    .
    .
    The other thing is that PoE’s “0.1% content” – as far as I’m aware – doesn’t affect the rest of the game, and/or the rest of the game is much less sensitive to “balance changes” because, again, it’s effectively a solo game.

    But as evidenced by the healing nerfs in the last preview patch, the NW devs (designers), under the counsel of preview-BiS players like Sharpedge here, are willing to effect the whole rest of the game for the sake of just this “0.1% content.” That makes us fear what else might be coming, for one, and that’s probably the core of much of the backlash to it.

    It also makes us fear how it’s going to affect the other 99.9% of the game, that most of us do play – both as healers and in parties that rely on healers – because there’s certainly been no time to vet, test, or playtest that… and we just saw what happened with all these scaling gyrations were there supposedly was time to playtest them. (but primarily by preview-BiS players again)

    So if healing is too strong in the ToMM skirmish, well, adjust that skirmish, not the rest of the game!
    i like how u completely ingored shaprs reference to WoW and just picked on PoE cause its mostly a "solo" game. Way to go with your argumentation.

    I want to remind all those ppl here complaining about lomm to think back to mod 9. There the devs announced the return of 3 old dungeons and oh boy they came back... as leveling dungeons. The community must have loved it right? I mean everyone can run them without challenging themselfs, without having to rely on "Other People" (yeah, who da HAMSTER wants to play with other ppl in an MMO, or even communicate, LoL thats stupid).
    Well guess what. Everyone was HAMSTER annoyed by that decision because it serves noone if content is super easy and u can literally play with both eyes closed and your arms tied behind your back.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,243 Arc User
    I think phase 3 would be more entertaining if it also had those portals from phase 1.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,243 Arc User
    edited July 2019



    I’ll agree with that, *as long as it doesn’t affect the rest of the game.* But it does, and it is. And I’m sure there’s more to come. That doesn’t have the “aspirational” effect that you’re arguing for; rather it has a demotivational effect on some large part of the player base.


    And have you tried it on preview? If not, you are just assuming. In my opinion the heal nerfs were necessary. There are healer checks in ToMM which are much more demanding than the nostura curse or the boreworm and prior to the nerfs, if 1 of our healers fell off or died we could still finish it just fine. Now if 1 of our healers fails it is likely a wipe. It wasn't, "2 healers are required" before, it was, "1 healer is required, the second is optional." By making minor adjustments to your character you can survive the boreworm without a healer (cap defense, use something like bulette healing bonus +the insignia bonus that procs when you lose hp and healing potions). This is the only content in the game which truly requires a healer.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,243 Arc User
    edited July 2019



    I’ll agree with that, *as long as it doesn’t affect the rest of the game.* But it does, and it is. And I’m sure there’s more to come.

    And have you tried it on preview? If not, you are just assuming. In my opinion the heal nerfs were necessary.

    And you’re missing what I’m saying. I haven’t and I have no interest in trying it on preview, nor do I doubt what you’re saying about how it was working.

    It’s your solution that’s the problem. Instead of fixing TOMM to make it play as you like, you’ve advocated something that affects *the entire rest of the game*. Without testing, without considering the consequences, with at best non-data driven (when there is data) *assumptions* about how other dungeons like LOMM work for the rest of the player base.

    Now, obviously these new Mod 16 classes need a lot (a stunning amount, really) of balancing work, but as others have said, healing was not by far the most egregiously off-balance thing, and putting effort and disruption there just leaves people off-balance wondering what’s going on. And distrustful that other seemingly incomprehensible nerfs are on the way.

    It’s not because any particular nerf is going to be so bad, but because the *methodology* by which you’re making them is misguided.
    If you don't think that a paladin being able to shield you for 1.1m incoming damage is unbalanced then I don't know what to say, you clearly have no concept of what a well built healer can do and its not my fault that every single healer guide published at the moment with the exception of grey's is completely and utterly awful.

    And no I don't need to test the rest of the game since you can play the rest of it without a healer anyhow.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,243 Arc User
    edited July 2019


    If you don't think that a paladin being able to shield you for 1.1m incoming damage is unbalanced

    Did I say anything at all about Paladins? I don’t think so….


    And no I don't need to test the rest of the game since you can play the rest of it without a healer anyhow.

    You’re arguing that the game should have content that only 0.1% of the players can complete – just to provide you your own little challenge and fantasy that other players are “aspiring” to be like you -- then you’re asserting that because you don’t need a healer in the rest of the game, no one else should either, so… I guess we should just get rid of the class altogether, right?

    Sorry, but you’re really going off the deep end here….
    1) You said, "healers" and didn't specify a class. Paladins are a type of healer.
    2) Paladins were adjusted far more than clerics were and imo by the right amount.
    3) Clerics were adjusted by 10-20%, tell a dps to slot tactical enchantments and stop whining if heals are not sufficient for them, most of them seem to be using darks for some obscure reason, even though tacticals are a far superior choice. 5 tactical enchantments at rank 7 will compensate (and indeed make heals effect you for more than before) for the nerf inside dungeons and outside of them you can use whatever you like since it doesn't matter anyhow. Tacticals at rank 7 will cost you a negligible amount of AD, so don't even try to claim that this is too expensive for a new player.
    4) Warlock healers are fine and imo superior to clerics for the purposes of the trial, tactical advice above still applies.

    For anyone wanting to run the trial, you will want to cap your defense anyhow, even on a DPS or a healer. If you are playing with capped defense and tacticals, you really won't have any issues with the rest of the game. Capping defense is not hard, you get given a piece of pet gear at the start of m16 which pretty much gets you there by itself. Healers should not be able to save stupidity and this change is a step in the right direction.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User



    Well, that’s not going to happen. DPS wants offensive stats – including the bit that comes from companion influence – and they’re still going to expect the healer and tank to keep them alive. I’ve only ever seen tanks give any concern at all to incoming healing, and you’re tilting at windmills if you think dps ever will.

    They’ll yell at the tank and healer, burn scrolls, or quit the queue or the game in frustration before that happens.

    Healers will want that power and crit as well, now even more so with these nerfs.

    Maybe for your skirmish – where you think weakened healers are such a good thing anyway – but not for LOMM, for example. And given that LOMM is (the only thing in) REQ, that’s part of what leads to the shortage of healers.

    ill fix that for u: DPS that arent braindead will slot tacticals.

    If they "yell at the tank and healer, burn scrolls, or quit the queue" they are pathetic crybabies.

    And lomm can be done on a heal Warlock just fine. It needs a bit more investment then a DC or OP but they can still do it if they put any effort into it.
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,243 Arc User



    Well, that’s not going to happen. DPS wants offensive stats – including the bit that comes from companion influence – and they’re still going to expect the healer and tank to keep them alive. I’ve only ever seen tanks give any concern at all to incoming healing, and you’re tilting at windmills if you think dps ever will.

    They’ll yell at the tank and healer, burn scrolls, or quit the queue or the game in frustration before that happens.

    Healers will want that power and crit as well, now even more so with these nerfs.

    If there is a perfectly valid, cheap solution to their problem and they are not complying with it, it is entirely on them. Darks are less than a 1% dps increase for all 5 of them at rank 15, in contrast, tacticals are arguably a 60% increase to their survivability. Indirectly they will also increase the damage they deal, because they will die less often and resurrection sickness applies a 10% reduction to your outgoing damage. If there is a perfectly valid solution to your problem and you choose not to take it, then guess what, it is your fault.

    Everyone in the trial group, every single person, used the items that were required of them. We said, "tacticals on utility, 80k defense, 400k hp" and guess what, they all complied. If 6 dps can manage to sacrifice offensive stats for the purposes of succeeding, then guess what, the rest of them can as well. Your epeen is not worth letting the team down in a team game. And as I said, it isn't even expensive to switch, a single rank 7 tactical is better than 5 rank 15 darks.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User

    tom#6998 said:



    Well, that’s not going to happen. DPS wants offensive stats – including the bit that comes from companion influence – and they’re still going to expect the healer and tank to keep them alive. I’ve only ever seen tanks give any concern at all to incoming healing, and you’re tilting at windmills if you think dps ever will.

    They’ll yell at the tank and healer, burn scrolls, or quit the queue or the game in frustration before that happens.

    Healers will want that power and crit as well, now even more so with these nerfs.

    Maybe for your skirmish – where you think weakened healers are such a good thing anyway – but not for LOMM, for example. And given that LOMM is (the only thing in) REQ, that’s part of what leads to the shortage of healers.

    ill fix that for u: DPS that arent braindead will slot tacticals.

    If they "yell at the tank and healer, burn scrolls, or quit the queue" they are pathetic crybabies.

    And lomm can be done on a heal Warlock just fine. It needs a bit more investment then a DC or OP but they can still do it if they put any effort into it.
    And insulting people says more about you than about them.



    so u see: yelling at party members, blaming them for your own shortcomings, and then ragequiting the dungeon as appropriate behavior that should not be criticised? Well i just hope i never have to be in the same dungeon as u :/
  • lordaeoloslordaeolos Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User


    1. The rewards are way too low considering the Trial difficulty.
    2. The rings should be ME rewards, not trial rewards, the rings are for the most part not going to be pursued by people that can complete the trial, and the plethora of rings means that the odds of getting a ring you might want are so low that most people won't waste time grinding for them.
    3. The vast majority of the player community will never be able to finish this trial with it's current difficulty.

    Let's be honest here, this trial is aimed at the top 1% of players in this game, and for us this is going to be a fun challenge the first few weeks of release (after that, been there done that), for the rest of the community this trial will be a curse, and a point of further contention dividing the have's from the have-not's. I predict that this trial WILL cause more people to leave the game, than people it draws back. People play for content, and only stay to grind when there are things that they feel are worth grinding for.

    What is more important: making a couple dozen influential people feel challenged? or retaining ten's of thousands of players?
    "Lord Willow"
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  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    edited July 2019
    Hey everyone! Asterdahl here, finally setting aside some time to reply to some of your comments and questions. Apologies for the delay! First of all, I wanted to thank everyone who has continually tested various iterations of the trial, both during closed beta and here on preview.

    Even though I haven't had time to reply here until today, I have been keeping an eye on all of your feedback thanks to Lassor, the producer on the trial. Those of you who have been running the trial may know him as he's been watching and discussing the trial with some of you.

    Without further ado... On to answering some questions!
    Post edited by asterdahl on
  • asterdahlasterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    edited July 2019
    finmakin said:

    Hello folks,

    I have some feedback I'd like to mention about this Trial.
    Let me begin that the Dev's who are responsible for creating this trial did an awesome job, finally a fight I (and think many more with me) have been longing for a long, long time.

    Thank you so much for the kind words. I designed and implemented the fight with assistance from @ctatumdev. And of course, as always with any boss fight, a number of talented artists helped to bring the encounter to life. I'll pass all of your kind words on to the rest of the team!
    finmakin said:

    Besides this (after a couple of day's trying out this trial) I have come up with the following idea, something Dev's could take into consideration..

    I have ran this trial as Tank and as Healer..
    As tank I got quite some heavy incoming damage to deal with (big ball) which is doable if you have been properly set (and worked) up your Tank.. :)
    As Healer it's a different story to deal with when a Tank get these incoming amount of damage… Since the whole fight is very dynamic with a lot of forced movements as group, its regurally difficult to pinpoint the Tank in the crowd for performing effective healing on him / her.

    So, I came up with the thought that it should be possible for leader to attach a special icon on the tanks (even if its a simple downwards arrow) so everyone can see (especially the healers) where the tanks are located at all time in the fast pacing movements in this trial..
    Actually its the same principle when a tank gets his Defense debuffed by the giant skeleton in ME, or endboss fight in MSP, but only placed on tank by leader..
    This saves up a powerslot as replacement for Bonds of Virtue

    my 2 cents..


    Hi Finmakin! We have long wanted to add a "lucky charms" system to the game, which would allow you to mark your allies. Unfortunately there are some difficulties with doing this given the way our visual effects system works, so this isn't something we'll be able to do this module, but it is something we'd like to eventually add.

    We were able to make some improvements in Module 17 though: when you choose to always display health bars for your party, other parties in your match group should now have their health bars displayed as well. As someone who often heals, this was something I wanted to make sure we had in place before offering a challenging new trial.

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