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Pitiful state of the Warlock
silverwolf
Member Posts: 187 Arc User
I've been a Warlock since I first started playing approx 4 years ago. But this mod has seen a sharp decline in the Warlock's abilities as a DPS class and it's not much better as a Healer either.
Let's take a look at the three largest magnitudes from each of the "Main" dps classes that you can see running around ...
As can be seen from the above table the Warlock is already substantially lower than other classes along with the Wizard and the Ranger.
If we factor in the ability to apply buffs/debuffs from Feats/Encounters and Skills things take a bit of a downward turn for the Warlock.
Here's how many buff/debuff options are available per class:
So we can see that the Warlock has the joint lowest options available to it for increasing its DPS abilities.
Buff/Debuff %age with first 5 seconds of combat.
Well, things aren't looking too good for the Warlock here, they have the lowest magnitudes, the least amount of buff/debuff options and cannot get those buffs/debuff into play early enough in combat; in fact for the Warlock to reach full buffs (45.5%) it takes them approx 90 seconds and they need to hope that the Soul Puppet (which they cannot control) actually survives long enough too.
Clearly things need to improve for the Warlock.
Killing Flames has an approx cast rate of 82% of between 400 to 460 and in only 2% of the cases was the hit above 550 (551 and 574).
Dreadtheft is uninterruptible but doesn't have a scaled cooldown based upon how long the cast was active so the player suffers from a long cooldown even if they've been interrupted at the beginning of the attack.
When we look at the healing side for the Warlock, things are mostly alright except for the spark generation, the Warlock does not have the ability to generate sparks if there are no enemies present ( a bit of a problem right after the boulders are dropping on the first phase of the Bore Worm). The Warlock is not an effective healer if there are no enemies to fight but are still locked in combat-stance.
Let's take a look at the three largest magnitudes from each of the "Main" dps classes that you can see running around ...
| Barbarian | Cleric | Ranger | Rogue | Warlock | Wizard |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Frenzy - 1100 | Forgemaster's Flame - 600 | Marauder's Rush - 600 | Assassinate - 650 | Killing Flames - 600 (Max value) | Repel - 475 (Max Value) |
| IBS - 700 | Daunting Light - 500 | Boar Rush - 450 | Wicked Reminder - 600 | Dreadtheft - 275 | Chill Strike - 400 |
| Punishing Charge - 700 | Geas - 500 | Hindering Strike - 400 | Lashing Blade - 550 | Vampiric Embrace - 200 | Icy - 400 |
| Total : 2500 | Total : 1650 | Total : 1300 | Total : 1800 | Total : 1075 | Total : 1275 |
| Avg : 833.3 | Avg : 550 | Avg : 433.3 | Avg : 600 | Avg : 358.3 | Avg : 425 |
If we factor in the ability to apply buffs/debuffs from Feats/Encounters and Skills things take a bit of a downward turn for the Warlock.
Here's how many buff/debuff options are available per class:
| Barbarian | Cleric | Ranger | Rogue | Warlock | Wizard |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 8 | 6 | 15 | 10 | 6 | 13 |
Buff/Debuff %age with first 5 seconds of combat.
| Barbarian | Cleric | Ranger | Rogue | Warlock | Wizard |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 25% | 50% | 35% Melee, 85% Ranged |
40% | 17.7% | 35% |
Clearly things need to improve for the Warlock.
Killing Flames has an approx cast rate of 82% of between 400 to 460 and in only 2% of the cases was the hit above 550 (551 and 574).
Dreadtheft is uninterruptible but doesn't have a scaled cooldown based upon how long the cast was active so the player suffers from a long cooldown even if they've been interrupted at the beginning of the attack.
When we look at the healing side for the Warlock, things are mostly alright except for the spark generation, the Warlock does not have the ability to generate sparks if there are no enemies present ( a bit of a problem right after the boulders are dropping on the first phase of the Bore Worm). The Warlock is not an effective healer if there are no enemies to fight but are still locked in combat-stance.
- Make Killing Flames magnitude a flat 600, not a range.
- Increase the magnitude of all other encounters by 50% (They'll still be much lower than the other classes)
- Apply Soul Investiture to the Warlock and not the Soul Puppet to ensure the 25% buff is not lost when something the player cannot control gets killed.
- The Warlock needs more ways to gain Soul Investiture other than Hadar's Grasp (19 sec cooldown) or Killing Flames (hoping the Warlock gets the Kill-Shot)
- Soul Investiture needs to stack faster to not disadvantage the Warlock, currently the Warlock takes 90 seconds to reach full buffs, nearly 3000% slower than the fastest to gain the same amount of self buffs.
- Powers that apply Creeping Death should not cancel a previously running Creeping Death, they should have their own Creeping Death tick which should run in parallel to other ticks of Creeping Death
-OR-
Creeping Death should tick once per initial hit for 60% of the damage dealt by that hit. - Warlock's Bargain should not cost Soul Sparks
- Warlock's Bargain should not heal the Warlock
- Warlock's Bargain should not heal Allies
- Warlock's Bargain should grant the Warlock two Soul Sparks
- Warlock's Bargain should remove one negative effect from allies within a radius of 30' (not requiring line of sight like it does at the moment)
17
Comments
All those numbers are fairly pointless without the context of all the other stuff that feeds into them.
Powers are more than the headline magnitude... lots of things improve damage or make the value of damage better by virtue of faster turn around.
Ask some deeper delving questions that go beyond surface Base Magnitude.
How fast do they recharge?
Do they do additional DoT or other special effect that I might be able to use to my advantage?
How well do those Powers synergise with Feats, and At-Wills?
What do Class Features do to maximise the output on those powers? And if I change my set up will I see a change in damage output?
Have I, for instance, got a class mechanic that allows me to regularly shave 3 seconds off Enc. Cooldowns and deal extra damage?
Am I smart enough to use X, Y and then apply Z to effectively triple the damage of what looks like a weak power, by looking beyond the headline magnitudes?
Barbarians need high headline magnitudes, because... well... sorry, but... it needs to be kept simple...
Warlocks, and Wizards and others have cool thinky stuff going on that allows them to do clever stuff and make more complex effects that do much more than the headline magnitudes.
I'm on record as saying that the Warlocks TAB Power is extremely dull and uninspiring compared, for instance, to the sexy new Cleric Mana Pool mechanic. But even with my part-time alt Warlock I'm doing fine as far as damage goes and while I might not be winning any Paingiver contests, (which are frankly for people with the mental age of 12 anyway...) I'm having a lot of fun bestowing, and then ripping out, curses and watching a lot of stuff die quite quickly.
If you want powers that do lots of damage without a lot of complicated mechanics, then Magic Users are never going to be a good choice. That's the domain of the sort of "Brute Force and Ignorance" that normally comes wrapped in armour and swinging something that looks like its just been uprooted.
There is a lot of potential in Warlocks when you delve down into their bag of tricks.
Certainly a long way from "Pitiful".
Which I hate.
And I mean
- hate -
I hated it before mod16, and now that it's been shoved in my face, I hate it even more.
I didn't really use it before M16, but now I use it all the time.
What is it you hate?
The damage? The fact that it does sympathetic rather than direct damage? Too useful?
Interestingly, it doesn't look like the OP is using it, given the powers they listed.
Most classes now have one or two Encounter powers that are fundamental to a good build.
I'm not debating whether that's right or wrong, it just is.
Want to play a wizard that throws Fireballs about, but for whatever reason hate Chill and Freeze effects and powers? Wizard's probably not the class for you, cos that Freezy stuff will be pretty important IF you want to do damage along with putting on a fireworks display.
You don't need CB to perform as a Warlock, roll with any damage dealing Encounters you want, but it gives some of the best damage output, and when used with Parting Blasphemy even more so.
TBH in solo play I barely remember to use it except in Runed MEs where mobs take a lot longer.
But I don't play to be BiS or top of the boards or feel the need to be better or even as good as other classes. As long as I'm having fun and it's working OK. I like blowing stuff up with Fiery Bolts and killing stuff close up with Hellfire Ring.
Someone will probably tell me that's wrong as well, but I couldn't care less.
But, if you DO want to be top banana, then you have to go with the best combinations. And for Warlock that generally includes Curse Bites.
And "Warlocks are Pitiful"
"Hold on, what about THIS?"
"No, you hold, what if I don't want to use that..."
Doesn't support the contention that Warlocks are in a pitiful state.
It supports the notion that any class you choose to play while not using its most effective powers will not be as good as if you DID...
I spent the time checking every recharge time for the powers, I simplified the results to fit into the forum and try to not have the post too long for the devs to actually read. I checked all the DoTs, you'd be surprised to find that our class doesn't have the most DoTs - go figure.
To help with the testing I sat in my stronghold and fired off 100 Killing Flames just to see the percentages, then after finishing that data set, I ran it again, are you putting the same amount of time into testing this stuff too to help the WArlock community or just sitting there spouting rhetoric because you feel like it ? Perhaps if you have a great build and setup, time how long it takes you to achieve your maximum dps potential, I removed all of the artefacts, gear potions, food etc and only used what was on the Feat/Boon pages as everything else was available to all classes, I spent thousands in real world money ranking up tons of different comps on all of these toons to help check things just to see how they benefit the class, are you putting in the same level of effort for the community ?
Magnitude plays a huge part in the damage calculation, try reading Janne's site. The cooldowns are approx the same across all of the classes, I know because I put them all in a spreadsheet (here's me being all clever and using a computer - oooh)
You should go back and check the 3 second cooldown on Soul Scorch, I recorded it and narrowed it down to a thousandth of a second and checked the times - 18 sparks = 2 seconds, not 3 like it's supposed to; but, I mean, you know the class so well so you obviously knew that too - right ? (See, I can be condescending too, try being nice to people and they will be nice to you too).
Warlock is in a pitiful state, it takes far too long for the Warlock to reach their full potential compared to the other classes who can reach that in a much shorter time than the Warlock, that means that the Warlock simply cannot do the same level of damage as the other classes. Not only do we have less DoTs to help us out now, we also can't hit as hard as we used to either. The nerf on Creeping Death which was the biggest percentage of DPS that we had absolutely gutted the Warlock's ability to compete for top DPS.
Is it about being top or smooth runs ? Smooth runs obviously but that doesn't mean that all of us are content to "Be behind the wheel of a muscle-car with flat tyres" (as I recall reading a post with that great quote in it).
I want to compete for the top of the DPS chart but still have smooth runs, I want that other players that are less-skilled at the class that I am to have an easier time when playing the class. I don't like the stigma that exists in the community that the Warlock class is garbage and have people excluded from runs simply because they're a Warlock.
I've had people complaining that they have had to swap and rank up other toons simply because no-one wants a Warlock as a DPS or a Healer. I run in LoMM with a set group and we have a Warlock in there, he knows his class, he's not quite end-game yet but he's really close to it. He's a good Warlock, I was on my Ranger and joined his LoMM run part way through the dungeon at Arcturia (they'd failed 4 times before I joined). By the end of the dungeon I'd hit 125 M, he was on 65M, not because he cannot play his class, but because it cannot hit hard enough and fast enough compared to the other classes that hve their buffs up straight away. I'm starting combat with a 35% DPS buff on the first second, the Warlock is on about 4.5% I've already smoked the mob before he has a chance do deal anything meaningful.
What is a fact is that, when the classes were reworked for M10, the guy that was responsible for the Warlock rework, left cryptic halfway trough, and the missing polishing on the rework was basicly what lead to the warlock underperforming from mod 10.5-15 (Mod10 there were was still a bug around that gave us crazy dmg)
And the M16 rework sadly didnt deliver what most Warlocks (the few that still play) hoped for.
We should be considered as tanks for how much aggro we get on the forums
The warlock used to have a mixed bag that I could play around with and still be effective. There were times I paired up Blades and Spheres, but that combo doesn't seem to work anymore. Used to use vampiric embrace. That's broken too. Wraith's Shadow which used to be a thing is now a mere shadow of its former self. Arms of Hadar are broken. Fiery Bolt is rubbish. Those two and PoP were my stand by. It was Whoosh! Thwump! Ba-Boom! as I zipped all over the place.
Now it's pfffff.... pfffftt...pffff..., while I mash away at shadow slip because for some reason my warlock's feet keep getting glued to the floor.
I used to love the warlock. It was all flame and explosive fury, now it's like ripping paper.
I guess the main reason I've always disliked cb is I think it lacks oomph. I also find it rather silly to curse, uncurse, curse, uncurse, curse and wait, wait, wait - uncurse! - curse, wait, wait, wait, - uncurse!- etc, etc, ad nauseum. That's just how I feel about it. It's fine if you like it. But I can't help raising an eyebrow when someone says the warlock's got a bag of tricks when from my point of view it's a one-trick pony with three broken legs.
And perhaps that's the reason why everyone's using curse bite now - not because it's so wonderful, but because it's the only leg left to stand on.
BIS when it comes to equipment I get. I don't like it, but I get it. But BIS when it comes to at-wills and encounters - just makes all the other ones seem like a waste of development time.
Here's a clear example of how badly the warlock stacks against other DPS classes. I have one toon for each class and my CW that has just cracked 20k does more damage than my warlock that is 23k. I have an easier time on a class I have yet to learn than I have on a class I've used for years. Truth right here.
The warlock was top dog for a bit (I even remember puppet builds doing crazy damage before they got fixed). To say warlock was never top DPS is incorrect.
U can consider those (Like the old TT, or Murderous Flames etc) as WaI or not, but SW was at the top at those times.
Well its not like that really mattered since back then buffs were so crazy that anything was OP as HAMSTER, anyone remembers DC Powerlooping into infinity?
Well maybe u can elaborate why u think that the warlock does not deserve to be competetive with the likes of CW or TR in terms of dmg?
And if its, "because he has a healing path too" (which i hope its not) then let me remind u that asterdahl stated that they intend for all DPS paths to be on equal footing in terms of their dps.
I distinctly remember this being the splash description for SW:
Is it too powerful? What?
Too useful?
Most classes now have a couple or even one Power they rely on to compete in the charts. Why would Warlock be any different?
But I'm not sure how many classes have a power that allows them to target an uncapped number of enemies, across an AoE that includes pretty much everywhere you can see, and cause three figure magnitude damage and has two charges?
Your ad nauseam example is pretty much the way most classes operate. Use at wills till a power is ready, use it, follow a cycle, repeat... (include ad nauseam, if it really does make you sick...)
If the problem is that warlock doesn't do as much damage and kill everything as quickly as before, then that's not a Warlock issue, that's the way HAMSTER works now for everyone.
Out of all 8 of my characters the only one that is close to being better than it was in Mod 15, is my Rogue. But that's only because it was so badly beaten by the pointless class tweaking in M15 and everything else has been reduced far more in comparison by the M16 changes.
But, you're the expert... so I guess it must be me not understanding that I'm not actually having fun, and really just participating in a charade of repetitive behaviour. Unlike all the other character classes where no one ever follows set "Rotations" or patterns of power use. Cos that would be just ad nauseam pffft pffft pffft ing wouldn't it...
(As a test I ran without CB and used FB, HR and Arms of Hadar. Swapping Warlocks Curse in for Parting Blasphemy, I have no clue whether it was several percentage points better or worse, but it took around the same time to kill the same stuff... it was messy and loud. Perhaps with your background in class development you could try and expand on something like that? The problem is I was still having to curse, curse, curse to get the 10% damage bonus from WC... and I'm not sure that's fixable on Warlock. Cursing is probably here to stay.)
So I don't like curse bite. That's not a personal attack against you. I'm astounded you think the warlock's A-O-K, but you don't see me slinging snide comments at you.
That aside: Messy and Loud is what I want.
Maybe it's just me, but I'm having a lot of trouble with Arms of Hadar simply not working - similar to some issues with a few of the wizard's encounters. Where I initiate it. It goes into cool down. But nothing happens. The enemies are unaffected in any way.
That's my problem with FB, HR, and Arms. If arms worked properly for me, I'd be happy to base my warlock around that rotation. But I stopped using it cause it wasn't working.
I'd like to see either a little more damage from Fiery Bolt, or a shorter cooldown, or some kind of curse synergy. I just think it's lacking. That's not my "expert" opinion. It's my personal opinion. I'd like to play around with Vampiric Embrace too, and Dreadtheft, but Vampiric Embrace isn't very good any more, and Dreadtheft is so wonky for me. I get some use out of Blades in solo stuff, but I could wish it did a little more damage.
Which leads me right back to Curse Bite. They did a great job with Curse Bite. I wish it came with three charges, but it works pretty well. I admit it.
lol - I just don't like it. I never have, and now the Hellbringer essentially revolves around it since so many other encounters are either working poorly or are simply subpar.
I really don't understand why anyone would be upset if damage magnitudes were increased and improperly working encounters were fixed.
I'm not running LoMM to compete with end game table toppers, and mainly doing PUG queues and 1 rune MEs and I'm having little to no issue. The only problem I had was when I forgot to switch insignia on my Basilisk and was farming rAD instead of getting Heals for Crits... Oh, and the time I forgot I wasn't on my Rogue and dropped 3 Runes on an ME... That took a LONG time... (really really really long time...) but still managed it.
There may be some technical, nerdgasm stat-based reason why what I did was "wrong" but it was more fun than a barrel of monkeys and made lots of noise and mess.
My Warlock is like my third or fourth tier character, I'm running at 20.6k (IL) with most stats above 60K, Power at just under 100K and R12 Bondings on an Epic Iouon Stone of Might, (R9/10 Empowereds) so nowhere near "End Game BiS" but not exactly a complete moose either.
If I was really into the stats sheets and pie charts and graphs side of the game, (and transferred the good stuff off my Rogue) I could probably fine tune the build I'm using into something "Good", but certainly playing solo I don't feel any great need for Curse Bites, and while it certainly helps in group play up to FBI/MSP (which is about as far as I've got with random queues) it's not as important as getting the timing right on Scorch for maximising output in prolonged fights..
(And Scorch STILL looks and feels HAMSTER-poor in a fight and the speed at which it drains after a fight. It's a crappy little green laser pointer... it should be more impressive.)
As far as using CB in group play, I probably will revert to it, and yeah it is probably the most useful power there is, and that does make it a priority choice. But I have to do that with most of my characters. My alt pally can't pull aggro like a main that someone has built properly so I know I'm going to need Vow of Enmity if I land in a PUG with DPS Barbarians. (Whose response to getting a full red aggro bar seems to be to hit everything as hard as possible to make it go away.)
I agree that what you said before about Shadow Slip is a pain in the HAMSTER, but its one of those "Do you want to self interrupt, or do you want powers to fire regardless" dilemmas that I remember the Paladin always having issues with till they fixed the hierachy of powers in the last mod.
Maybe an "Interrupt" toggle for class move manoeuvres?
TBH I've not had any issues with Arms not firing properly, certainly nowhere near the amount of times I've cast Fireball as my Wizard and not known if anything actually happened. "It's gone to cooldown, and I think that monster has fewer HP than it did 3 seconds ago, but... I wanted a BOOM!" That happens a LOT.