Try typing tiamat tutorial on google, there are plenty of videos, or images explaining what to do. They are 3 years old, but still can be useful.
Fortunate for those players who visit this forum and have look upon your advice. Sadly, its unfortunate for those that don't even visit the forum. Its even unfortunate, when those player join your group and messes up your run.
Does that kind of player really bother to learn a strat even explained in game ? You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make it drink.
People who don't visit forum doesn't mean they don't want to learn the mechanic. U can't profile people with that.
Random groups, however....in particular random groups with people that don't follow instructions, take gems and don't use them, or die over and over...well, those are problematic.
But those people are problematic in any dungeon, so is not a problem with this trial like people is saying.
The problem is that lots of bad players are used to have success in some trials (tiamat + demogorgon) even if all the players are mediocre.
Its just like back in mod 5. Until the zerg tactic are more commonly known among the player in the game, only will pug run have more success. Although for mod 16, that's gonna take a very long time since they reduce the max player down from 25 to 10. So its not so forgiving as before when 3 or 4 clueless player could still be carried.
The game need to provide people some info on the mechanics to speed up the process or else people's morale gonna take its toll. Like many coin heist before the fix, people just assume its undoable and leave the instance without trying. Even now after the fix, I still see people leave because they still think its undoable.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
But those people are problematic in any dungeon, so is not a problem with this trial like people is saying.
Agree. which is also why I said I consider the difficulty just right, Very easy for a BiS group. Comfortable for a coordinated guild group with average gear...a painful experience for an uncoordinated, uncooperative, undergeared group. Yup...that's how it should be.
Hoping for improvements...
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
Try typing tiamat tutorial on google, there are plenty of videos, or images explaining what to do. They are 3 years old, but still can be useful.
Fortunate for those players who visit this forum and have look upon your advice. Sadly, its unfortunate for those that don't even visit the forum. Its even unfortunate, when those player join your group and messes up your run.
Does that kind of player really bother to learn a strat even explained in game ? You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make it drink.
People who don't visit forum doesn't mean they don't want to learn the mechanic. U can't profile people with that.
The group contains people who doesn't visit forum AND doesn't look advices. For real, after getting a** kicked at tiamat, a decent player would ask what the strat is and follow it.
Random groups, however....in particular random groups with people that don't follow instructions, take gems and don't use them, or die over and over...well, those are problematic.
But those people are problematic in any dungeon, so is not a problem with this trial like people is saying.
The problem is that lots of bad players are used to have success in some trials (tiamat + demogorgon) even if all the players are mediocre.
Its just like back in mod 5. Until the zerg tactic are more commonly known among the player in the game, only will pug run have more success. Although for mod 16, that's gonna take a very long time since they reduce the max player down from 25 to 10. So its not so forgiving as before when 3 or 4 clueless player could still be carried.
The game need to provide people some info on the mechanics to speed up the process or else people's morale gonna take its toll. Like many coin heist before the fix, people just assume its undoable and leave the instance without trying. Even now after the fix, I still see people leave because they still think its undoable.
Getting in depth tutorials on places some players in random ques refuse to learn isnt gonna help. Take demo for instance. Some have said the starting scenematics are good and provide all the help anyone needs to know to do the dungeon. Yet in randoms its more often that black portals are hit than yellow ones. Its more often that half the group is doing portals on their own and doesnt focus purple ones.
Those that wanna learn mechanics they will learn. They will look for guides in text or videoes. Or they will ask their guild / alliance / friends for help and figure things out. Some people wanna learn, and get all the help they can, but still never learn. No amount of help from guild would help those. And no more game help is needed for those that wanna learn. So the group we are stuck with is the people in random ques that doesnt wanna learn.
We should ask ourself, how can we punish those who refuse to learn or try enough to force them to learn. What about upgrading the leaver system to include private ques after x leaves in a week. And increase the que timer with every leave too. And what about leaver penalty to anyone who leaves the que so u dont get a free leave after the first one leaves.
And since most random groups ive seen always have 1 or 2 veteran players who knows the mechanics, a harder leave system could motivate those to explain the mechanics to the new people so reduce the risk of fail and having to leave.
But there will always be risk with going random groups > premade groups, like language barriers. Someone not reading chat. Organizing can be hard or impossible. And the risk of getting some super casual player without bonding stones and doesnt have a care in the world for how their stats are. Thats the risk u take. And u get extra RADs for it. Dont like the risk, dont use random que. Getting back to a system where all risk is removed because a few people can solo and carry everyone is a stupid idea.
Try typing tiamat tutorial on google, there are plenty of videos, or images explaining what to do. They are 3 years old, but still can be useful.
Fortunate for those players who visit this forum and have look upon your advice. Sadly, its unfortunate for those that don't even visit the forum. Its even unfortunate, when those player join your group and messes up your run.
Does that kind of player really bother to learn a strat even explained in game ? You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make it drink.
People who don't visit forum doesn't mean they don't want to learn the mechanic. U can't profile people with that.
This is a game. A game that people play to enjoy themselves. If they like getting their HAMSTER kicked and failing everything, good for them. If they dont, they will seek out help in some form to get better and reduce the risk of fail. A person who doesnt seek help in any form, is clearly not wanting to learn mechanics.
Try typing tiamat tutorial on google, there are plenty of videos, or images explaining what to do. They are 3 years old, but still can be useful.
Fortunate for those players who visit this forum and have look upon your advice. Sadly, its unfortunate for those that don't even visit the forum. Its even unfortunate, when those player join your group and messes up your run.
Does that kind of player really bother to learn a strat even explained in game ? You can lead a donkey to water, but you can't make it drink.
People who don't visit forum doesn't mean they don't want to learn the mechanic. U can't profile people with that.
The group contains people who doesn't visit forum AND doesn't look advices. For real, after getting a** kicked at tiamat, a decent player would ask what the strat is and follow it.
How would u know if those people that don't visit the forum doesn't seek advise in game?
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
The group contains people who doesn't visit forum AND doesn't look advices. For real, after getting a** kicked at tiamat, a decent player would ask what the strat is and follow it.
How would u know if those people that don't visit the forum doesn't seek advise in game?
Getting in depth tutorials on places some players in random ques refuse to learn isnt gonna help. Take demo for instance. Some have said the starting scenematics are good and provide all the help anyone needs to know to do the dungeon. Yet in randoms its more often that black portals are hit than yellow ones. Its more often that half the group is doing portals on their own and doesnt focus purple ones.
Those that wanna learn mechanics they will learn. They will look for guides in text or videoes. Or they will ask their guild / alliance / friends for help and figure things out. Some people wanna learn, and get all the help they can, but still never learn. No amount of help from guild would help those. And no more game help is needed for those that wanna learn. So the group we are stuck with is the people in random ques that doesnt wanna learn.
Its true there are those people that are eager to jump into action without bother knowing the mechanics. They might be one of those people who don't go internet for guide. But then there are people who dont go to internet to seek out guide but is willing/prefer to learn things ingame. If ingame tutorial are able to help these people, I consider the tutorial a success.
Also u cant blame people for not opening purple portal in demo run. The tutorial does not include tactics on which portal to open. Its more of a communication problem.
The group contains people who doesn't visit forum AND doesn't look advices. For real, after getting a** kicked at tiamat, a decent player would ask what the strat is and follow it.
How would u know if those people that don't visit the forum doesn't seek advise in game?
Just read my message.
I'm just pointing out there are people who doesn't visit forum and does look for advice ingame. Ingame tutorial are meant for them.
Getting in depth tutorials on places some players in random ques refuse to learn isnt gonna help. Take demo for instance. Some have said the starting scenematics are good and provide all the help anyone needs to know to do the dungeon. Yet in randoms its more often that black portals are hit than yellow ones. Its more often that half the group is doing portals on their own and doesnt focus purple ones.
Those that wanna learn mechanics they will learn. They will look for guides in text or videoes. Or they will ask their guild / alliance / friends for help and figure things out. Some people wanna learn, and get all the help they can, but still never learn. No amount of help from guild would help those. And no more game help is needed for those that wanna learn. So the group we are stuck with is the people in random ques that doesnt wanna learn.
Its true there are those people that are eager to jump into action without bother knowing the mechanics. They might be one of those people who don't go internet for guide. But then there are people who dont go to internet to seek out guide but is willing/prefer to learn things ingame. If ingame tutorial are able to help these people, I consider the tutorial a success.
Also u cant blame people for not opening purple portal in demo run. The tutorial does not include tactics on which portal to open. Its more of a communication problem.
Those that wanna learn mechanics but doesnt like guides or videos of walkthoughs, those will ask their friends / guild / alliance. And if ur in a guild / alliance who cant help u, i would find another place to be. This is a MMO, grouped content are supposed to be played with ur group. Things are supposed to be learned and figured out with a group. If u refuse to talk to other players and want the game to make up for ur lack of interest in the social and other players part of the game, well thats a fault only on the players part, not something the game needs to make up for.
And u can complete tiamat without using the gems, its just a lot harder. Since in tiamat u cant do w/e u want and get ur random completion on a bronze.
Like ive said several times, it would be bad for the game if tutorials or hints where to explain mechanics. So when they dont do it other places, it shouldnt do it on tiamat either.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
The group contains people who doesn't visit forum AND doesn't look advices. For real, after getting a** kicked at tiamat, a decent player would ask what the strat is and follow it.
How would u know if those people that don't visit the forum doesn't seek advise in game?
Just read my message.
I'm just pointing out there are people who doesn't visit forum and does look for advice ingame. Ingame tutorial are meant for them.
So you are telling me there are people who doesn"t visit forum, and does look for advice in game? Shouldn't they get advice when they ask ? Some real player teaching you how to do it is far better than an in game tutorial
The group contains people who doesn't visit forum AND doesn't look advices. For real, after getting a** kicked at tiamat, a decent player would ask what the strat is and follow it.
How would u know if those people that don't visit the forum doesn't seek advise in game?
Just read my message.
I'm just pointing out there are people who doesn't visit forum and does look for advice ingame. Ingame tutorial are meant for them.
So you are telling me there are people who doesn"t visit forum, and does look for advice in game? Shouldn't they get advice when they ask ? Some real player teaching you how to do it is far better than an in game tutorial
Of course its better for someone to teach but we all know this cant be a realistic feat. U might find there are people patient enough to teach but it cant be happening 24/7 on every Tiamat run that pop in random que.
Getting in depth tutorials on places some players in random ques refuse to learn isnt gonna help. Take demo for instance. Some have said the starting scenematics are good and provide all the help anyone needs to know to do the dungeon. Yet in randoms its more often that black portals are hit than yellow ones. Its more often that half the group is doing portals on their own and doesnt focus purple ones.
Those that wanna learn mechanics they will learn. They will look for guides in text or videoes. Or they will ask their guild / alliance / friends for help and figure things out. Some people wanna learn, and get all the help they can, but still never learn. No amount of help from guild would help those. And no more game help is needed for those that wanna learn. So the group we are stuck with is the people in random ques that doesnt wanna learn.
Its true there are those people that are eager to jump into action without bother knowing the mechanics. They might be one of those people who don't go internet for guide. But then there are people who dont go to internet to seek out guide but is willing/prefer to learn things ingame. If ingame tutorial are able to help these people, I consider the tutorial a success.
Also u cant blame people for not opening purple portal in demo run. The tutorial does not include tactics on which portal to open. Its more of a communication problem.
Those that wanna learn mechanics but doesnt like guides or videos of walkthoughs, those will ask their friends / guild / alliance. And if ur in a guild / alliance who cant help u, i would find another place to be. This is a MMO, grouped content are supposed to be played with ur group. Things are supposed to be learned and figured out with a group. If u refuse to talk to other players and want the game to make up for ur lack of interest in the social and other players part of the game, well thats a fault only on the players part, not something the game needs to make up for.
And u can complete tiamat without using the gems, its just a lot harder. Since in tiamat u cant do w/e u want and get ur random completion on a bronze.
Like ive said several times, it would be bad for the game if tutorials or hints where to explain mechanics. So when they dont do it other places, it shouldnt do it on tiamat either.
Sadly, like u said, its a social game. U cant interfere with people freedom or dictate other on what they can or can not do.
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alphastreamMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 209Arc User
I'm again in disbelief at the development team. I can't understand how they released this new version and found it acceptable. Are they really playtesting? How could they have playtested this and found it to be a fix?
- There was nothing wrong with the old version in Mod 15. It was fun and rewarding. - The current format is less fun, even if it worked, than the 25-person version. - The current version doesn't work, because it's terribly put together. The expectations on timing, challenge, spacing... the entire thing doesn't work in the current form.
Please reinstate the old version, scaled properly.
Learn more about Dungeons & Dragons tabletop at Alphastream.org.
There are several things wrong with Tiamat and it *does* need a tutorial or something to help people learn the mechanics. As others have said, with 25 players there was room for error and learning - not anymore. That's also 5 people per head (each head being nearly as tough as a boss in other 5 person, intermediate dungeons - just something I noticed). Even in Demogorgon, you really only have to worry about "don't touch green portals" and it tells you on screen to run for safety, etc.
First, for public queues (my schedule's pretty random, among other things, and that's my only option), there are too many mechanics going on. EVERYONE needs to grab a gem (that's two people with each color of gem = 10). Then, they need to fight *away* from the clerics, not on top of them. I've tried to tell people and tried to get aggro on my rogue to pull the mob away and use a shadow to keep them there for a little while, but rarely does anyone listen (one time there was no one on my side, so I dragged the mob to the other side, lol).
After all that, the heads... Unless you can get their attention (difficult), people really want to kill off each head and, if they can't be killed on the first round, start to drop out or ask for an abandon (this happens even when most heads were brought down to 20% or so). Yesterday was the closest I came to completing this since the change. Two runs had someone calling out directions, one of them me (I find this difficult while fighting as a rogue - my main), and they still failed. Someone still asked for an abandon right when people were starting to get the mechanics, though it didn't get abandoned (I'm sure that kept spirits up, though, lol). We almost had it...
Like most people here, I've run this hundreds of times across many mods. It's extremely hard to get people to work together. It's also extremely frustrating to get everything done you want to get done. Challenge is fine, but many factors you can't control (other players, bad design) and the end result is you waste time and aren't having fun.
Some things should be challenging, but some things should have fairly reasonable completion times and just be fun. The whole Random Queue is really bad at separating these or rewarding properly for challenge. And players can't tell what should and shouldn't be challenging... devs can't figure it out either, and that's the biggest problem.
Learn more about Dungeons & Dragons tabletop at Alphastream.org.
I'm again in disbelief at the development team. I can't understand how they released this new version and found it acceptable. Are they really playtesting? How could they have playtested this and found it to be a fix?
- There was nothing wrong with the old version in Mod 15. It was fun and rewarding. - The current format is less fun, even if it worked, than the 25-person version. - The current version doesn't work, because it's terribly put together. The expectations on timing, challenge, spacing... the entire thing doesn't work in the current form.
Please reinstate the old version, scaled properly.
They said the engine didnt handle 25 man very well, so thats why they removed 15 players from the trial. Mod 15 tiamat wasnt fun. It was casual, no risk free loot dungeon. Didnt even matter if several players left or went AFK, just a few strong DPS could solo the place.
But it does work now, mechanics work, the timings work. One thing i did notice, the dmg from the white head on the ground seems very strong, mostly oneshotting players with the DoT who stand in it. Havnt tried using the gem, cause i just move away from the AoE so i dont care myself.
Ive done some in both premade and in random groups. Timing is fine. The steps how they progress is fine. The challenge is fitting, since the biggest challenge is to make the other 9 ppl listen when u explain to them what to do. But the trial itself is fine on the challenge scale.
There are several things wrong with Tiamat and it *does* need a tutorial or something to help people learn the mechanics. As others have said, with 25 players there was room for error and learning - not anymore. That's also 5 people per head (each head being nearly as tough as a boss in other 5 person, intermediate dungeons - just something I noticed). Even in Demogorgon, you really only have to worry about "don't touch green portals" and it tells you on screen to run for safety, etc.
First, for public queues (my schedule's pretty random, among other things, and that's my only option), there are too many mechanics going on. EVERYONE needs to grab a gem (that's two people with each color of gem = 10). Then, they need to fight *away* from the clerics, not on top of them. I've tried to tell people and tried to get aggro on my rogue to pull the mob away and use a shadow to keep them there for a little while, but rarely does anyone listen (one time there was no one on my side, so I dragged the mob to the other side, lol).
After all that, the heads... Unless you can get their attention (difficult), people really want to kill off each head and, if they can't be killed on the first round, start to drop out or ask for an abandon (this happens even when most heads were brought down to 20% or so). Yesterday was the closest I came to completing this since the change. Two runs had someone calling out directions, one of them me (I find this difficult while fighting as a rogue - my main), and they still failed. Someone still asked for an abandon right when people were starting to get the mechanics, though it didn't get abandoned (I'm sure that kept spirits up, though, lol). We almost had it...
Like most people here, I've run this hundreds of times across many mods. It's extremely hard to get people to work together. It's also extremely frustrating to get everything done you want to get done. Challenge is fine, but many factors you can't control (other players, bad design) and the end result is you waste time and aren't having fun.
Some things should be challenging, but some things should have fairly reasonable completion times and just be fun. The whole Random Queue is really bad at separating these or rewarding properly for challenge. And players can't tell what should and shouldn't be challenging... devs can't figure it out either, and that's the biggest problem.
Thank you. That's it exactly - fun. I don't find it fun to run public/random queues and fail unless I, or someone, calls out instructions (I can't play very well if I'm doing that). You know, in the old days (late 70s early 80s - PONG, lol), if their was anything to learn you got a short instruction manual (larger for D&D, lol) and no one told you to go to the library or something if you didn't know how something worked. They were games, they were supposed to be fun. If there was challenge, it was in how to beat the challenge, not how to figure out what the challenge was. Atari had an unfinished game series, "SwordQuest", that did exactly this and failed spectacularly.
A few people here seem to think the new version's fun and that's fine, but they keep telling others the way they're *supposed* to have fun, too. Like I told one, basically that's like saying, "Don't like it, leave" - I won't, I'll keep exercising my right to disagree. They say if you don't want to go out of the game to learn, instead of a harmless few second tutorial, you're lazy. I agree about your "challenging" point. That and fun are a matter of perspective (hell, the whole way people learn and play the game is), but some insist that people have to do it their way or they're, somehow, lazy.
I was going to ask some questions on this topic, anyway, so I'll do it here.
To those people (one in particular): - Why is this the right way to do Tiamat just because it works for you? - How does it affect your enjoyment of the game if some people want to learn in-game with a few second tutorial? - How is the above somehow "wrong" whether or not other MMOs do it or other dungeons in this one do it? - How is a few second tutorial intrusive? - If the above is "lazy", how do these "lazy" players affect your enjoyment of the game? - How do you KNOW everyone has the option to learn from guildies, etc, just because you do? You don't. - Why do you even care (going as far as being insulting) that others may enjoy the game differently from you if doesn't affect *your* enjoyment?
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates
- Why is this the right way to do Tiamat just because it works for you?
What ever way the group can complete it is the right way. Going together one head at the time just seems to be the easiest way and work the best. Dont think anyone said u "have" to do it this way. This is just the way everyone does it.
- How does it affect your enjoyment of the game if some people want to learn in-game with a few second tutorial?
My enjoyment of the game lies in figuring things out. Having tutorials that explain mechanics would reduce my enjoyment a lot. Since u have nothing to figure out, game gives it all to u.
- How is the above somehow "wrong" whether or not other MMOs do it or other dungeons in this one do it?
Tutorials that explain mechanics are wrong. Its a game, that means u have to figure something out urself. Its not a step by step program u follow and then get some chest at the end.
- If the above is "lazy", how do these "lazy" players affect your enjoyment of the game?
Im sure if those players who wants tutorials and doesnt like to figure things out get mechanics explained tutorial on tiamat, they will want one on all the other dungeons that they fail at. And the game is no longer a game, its a step by step guide to get a chest.
- How do you KNOW everyone has the option to learn from guildies, etc, just because you do? You don't.
Everyone have the option to learn from guild / alliance. There is a ton of guilds out there with veteran players in. Most of them really arent that hard to get into. So if u dont have this way of getting help, find urself another guild.
- Why do you even care (going as far as being insulting) that others may enjoy the game differently from you if doesn't affect *your* enjoyment?
I dont care how players enjoy the game. May it be never premade groups, only randoms. Or never even do dungeons. Or only do crafting. It doesnt matter to me. But same for them all is, they are playing the game. These tutorials that u want takes the game out of the game. Step by step guides on getting a chest is not a game.
And what would happen if tiamat got this step by step that u are asking for. How many random que CRs do u think is completed? Or CODG? What about the other old places that no one have run a lot in years. How many can remember mechanics on cragmire? or wolf den ? If tiamat got a step by step, would shouldnt the others? And sure u might think, its only for tiamat, everyone will be ok and not ask for them on the others. But i can guarantee u that if one gets it, a lot will want to see it for everything.
"Give someone a finger, and they will take the whole hand."
Some people have fun playing something challenging, some other people have fun playing something easier. Why not giving them all what they want?
I mean current Tiamat is in Random: Intermediate queue. That's the main problem. Either make an easier version of Tiamat for Intermediate queue or move it to Advanced queue (or do both things with better rewards for Advanced version).
Btw, please do that for Bank Heist too (make it an easier version or move it to Advanced queue, or do both things).
These tutorials that u want takes the game out of the game. Step by step guides on getting a chest is not a game.
Just to be clear with u the second time. Never in the game has tutorial ever interfere with player's tactics or suggested any tactics to win the game. Take demogorgon for example, tutorial only provide the information that the player need to close the portal before the times runs out but never did it suggest on which portal to close. The "close only purple portal" are just tactics made by the player to win the game. Only guides made by player teaches u how to win.
Don't get confuse here. Tutorial does not teach player to win. They only introduce the player to the tools available. What the player gonna do with these tools are up for them to decides.
I don't get why people are so against ingame tutorial. What harm are there to add in another source of information on top of having advice from vet player or the internet guide? Adding ingame tutorial only broaden the option for people to get their information from. Its not about which source are better. Its more about expanding the option so more type of people are expose to the information. I'm starting to think people are nitpicking here.
What ever way the group can complete it is the right way. Going together one head at the time just seems to be the easiest way and work the best. Dont think anyone said u "have" to do it this way. This is just the way everyone does it.
No, there haven't been any reasonable answers.
You misunderstand. Pre vs. post change (25 vs 10). The mechanics were completely changed. As I mentioned and @kangkeok, further elaborated on, it was supposed to be 5 per head, now it's 2. Don't tell me it's because the devs said it was too hard on the engine. It worked fine, just as PE did, but now PE instances only have 20 players in them and there's still some problems. It's difficult to believe Cryptic when they say things are WAI and then dial them back or Beholder weapons were in the game and findable, but weren't, among other things.
My enjoyment of the game lies in figuring things out. Having tutorials that explain mechanics would reduce my enjoyment a lot. Since u have nothing to figure out, game gives it all to u.
It's been said enough times, here, that you can skip it (why do you bother telling others to learn when you won't, yourself?), so it doesn't affect your ability to figure it out at all. Again, how does it affect YOUR enjoyment for OTHERS to play and learn differently?
Tutorials that explain mechanics are wrong. Its a game, that means u have to figure something out urself. Its not a step by step program u follow and then get some chest at the end.
As you said, it's a GAME. That means you enjoy it. If a tutorial, that DOESN'T affect you, helps someone enjoy it, why are you against that? Again, how does it affect YOUR enjoyment for OTHERS to play and learn differently?
Im sure if those players who wants tutorials and doesnt like to figure things out get mechanics explained tutorial on tiamat, they will want one on all the other dungeons that they fail at. And the game is no longer a game, its a step by step guide to get a chest.
If that's what they enjoy, why are you against it? Again, how does it affect YOUR enjoyment for OTHERS to play and learn differently?
Everyone have the option to learn from guild / alliance. There is a ton of guilds out there with veteran players in. Most of them really arent that hard to get into. So if u dont have this way of getting help, find urself another guild.
Are you incapable of reading? How many times and how many people have to explain, to you, that that's just not true. Go back and read.
Oh, that's why you give them a hard time when they don't learn quickly enough for you. Not only have you not answered a single question (which, again, haven't been answered *reasonably* before, just as now), but, contrary to what you say, you've proven, by your "answers", that you only want people to play, enjoy and learn the way you tell them to or they're wrong.
Not only that, but you completely ignored, as usual, what @alphastream and I had to say about challenge. The challenge isn't supposed to be in *learning* to play, but in the play, itself. If you enjoy the challenge of learning to play, great, have at, no one's asking you to stop with a tutorial that you can ignore, but you're demanding that others stop enjoying by not having the OPTION for one, if that's the way they enjoy the game.
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates
But those people are problematic in any dungeon, so is not a problem with this trial like people is saying.
Agree. which is also why I said I consider the difficulty just right, Very easy for a BiS group. Comfortable for a coordinated guild group with average gear...a painful experience for an uncoordinated, uncooperative, undergeared group. Yup...that's how it should be.
I somewhat disagree with your last point. Actually, no, I'm just seeing it from a different perspective. Generally, we're talking about public/random queues, here, where a lot of people aren't necessarily uncoordinated, etc (it's a mix). Certainly, being a bunch of strangers and not knowing what to do makes thing difficult, but otherwise, they seem to handle it pretty well (if they listen) when someone starts giving instructions. Without the instructions, they still work together (one head at a time), just not in a way that will win.
"When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser." - Socrates
These tutorials that u want takes the game out of the game. Step by step guides on getting a chest is not a game.
Just to be clear with u the second time. Never in the game has tutorial ever interfere with player's tactics or suggested any tactics to win the game. Take demogorgon for example, tutorial only provide the information that the player need to close the portal before the times runs out but never did it suggest on which portal to close. The "close only purple portal" are just tactics made by the player to win the game. Only guides made by player teaches u how to win.
Don't get confuse here. Tutorial does not teach player to win. They only introduce the player to the tools available. What the player gonna do with these tools are up for them to decides.
I don't get why people are so against ingame tutorial. What harm are there to add in another source of information on top of having advice from vet player or the internet guide? Adding ingame tutorial only broaden the option for people to get their information from. Its not about which source are better. Its more about expanding the option so more type of people are expose to the information. I'm starting to think people are nitpicking here.
And there is already helpfull info in tiamat for this. There is the quest tracker, there is the voice ques. After each summoner is killed a thing pops up u can interact with, so why not try it ? They even made so the gems now are on "F" instead of having to be slotted, this alone made it easier and more intuitive.
Demo tutorials have never helped in random ques. Most skip them, those who watch learn nothing from them. Why would it be any different from tiamat ? Tiamat can be complete without any gems, its just slower and more of a mess, but possible. This makes the gems a tactic u can use or not. So a video telling players to grab a gem will indeed be a tutorial on what tactics to use. And even then, how many will know when to use them? how many will pick one up anyway, they either skip the video or doesnt learn from it, demo has thought us that much. The only reason u dont see people complaining about demo being to hard for them here, is that u can get the random completing from a bronze so they hardly ever fail.
If u wanna help making tiamat less of a pain in random que, make it so that when the timer runs out, u get participation trophy for sticking around 25 min, aka the random quest is completed and satisfied. But the chest at the end is still closed.
You misunderstand. Pre vs. post change (25 vs 10). The mechanics were completely changed.
No, they were not.
The first time I random queued into the new 10 man, I took 1 look at how hard the mobs were to kill in the first phase then applied the natural logical extensions of that difficulty to the old tactics, and cleared the trial with just me calling instructions and running at appropriate times.
The only new thing I learnt, in that first run, was that each party has to go to a side.
Kill summoners, get a soul, defend clerics, go to each head taking of 1/3 to 1/2 HP depending on group DPS, repeat until success (2nd or 3rd phase of Tia depending on your available dps).
Its the exact same tactics you had to use when Tia first dropped.
But you have to pay attention to the red splats and such now, not simply ignore them like you have for the last 5 modules.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I'm again in disbelief at the development team. I can't understand how they released this new version and found it acceptable. Are they really playtesting? How could they have playtested this and found it to be a fix?
Given who you are, I found this a disappointing post.
For an average group of players, this is entirely reasonable content. If they work the mechanics and use the simple strategies of the trial; get souls, defend cleric, 1/3 off each head, repeat cleric and 1/3 2 more times.
BIS groups might be able to do it in one phase. I've never put 10 of them in 1 spot to try it.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
What ever way the group can complete it is the right way. Going together one head at the time just seems to be the easiest way and work the best. Dont think anyone said u "have" to do it this way. This is just the way everyone does it.
No, there haven't been any reasonable answers.
You misunderstand. Pre vs. post change (25 vs 10). The mechanics were completely changed. As I mentioned and @kangkeok, further elaborated on, it was supposed to be 5 per head, now it's 2. Don't tell me it's because the devs said it was too hard on the engine. It worked fine, just as PE did, but now PE instances only have 20 players in them and there's still some problems. It's difficult to believe Cryptic when they say things are WAI and then dial them back or Beholder weapons were in the game and findable, but weren't, among other things.
The mechanics where not changed. The way the devs intended us to play it with how we did play it didnt match, so when they changed it up, it didnt really change anything, cause of how everyone played it. Going 5 on each head, vs all grouped 1 head of the time, thats not a mechanic, thats a way we play it.
It doesnt really matter what u think of cryptic or how much u believes them or not. Thats what they said, thats what we have to go on. Tiamat is old content, but u need to run it for getting boons. So making the que easier to get enough people for was a QoL in my opinion, no matter why they decided to change it.
My enjoyment of the game lies in figuring things out. Having tutorials that explain mechanics would reduce my enjoyment a lot. Since u have nothing to figure out, game gives it all to u.
It's been said enough times, here, that you can skip it (why do you bother telling others to learn when you won't, yourself?), so it doesn't affect your ability to figure it out at all. Again, how does it affect YOUR enjoyment for OTHERS to play and learn differently?
Demo que have those cutscenes, they never helped in random ques for better clear rates. Only thing that helps clear rates is that its easier, u dont have to coordinate much of anything, and if u fail, u complete it on bronze.
So ur idea that these scenes will magically "fix" tiamat in randoms is just wrong.
And when a game needs to explain and point out mechanics and tactics for a group to follow in order to have better clear rates, thats a really sad day. Either the game is extremely hard, or the majority of players arent bright enough to play the game on the difficulty that the devs made it. So they made a game for the wrong customers. And its not the first thing, and i do hope its not the last thing.
Tutorials that explain mechanics are wrong. Its a game, that means u have to figure something out urself. Its not a step by step program u follow and then get some chest at the end.
As you said, it's a GAME. That means you enjoy it. If a tutorial, that DOESN'T affect you, helps someone enjoy it, why are you against that? Again, how does it affect YOUR enjoyment for OTHERS to play and learn differently?
Im against what the tutorial stand for, how it can effect the game long term. Like ive said already.
There is plenty of games out there who are super hard, instant death, no forgiveness. Some like those games, some dont. Cryptic made a game with the help and difficulty they found fitting. The day they will be forced to dumb everything down because else they will lose to many player, that indeed will be a sad day. And like i said, that is where it will really effect my enjoyment.
As it is right now, i have no issues helping someone learn or understand mechanics, not when im with them in random groups either. Helping them increase my odds of a clear. But sure, lets fill the game with tutorials so that its not needed anymore. U will see suddenly no one have any kind of patience for players learning, cause there was a tutorial, so everyone should know by default. And those who doesnt will get kicked or left behind anyway no one wanting to help them.
Im sure if those players who wants tutorials and doesnt like to figure things out get mechanics explained tutorial on tiamat, they will want one on all the other dungeons that they fail at. And the game is no longer a game, its a step by step guide to get a chest.
If that's what they enjoy, why are you against it? Again, how does it affect YOUR enjoyment for OTHERS to play and learn differently?
Answered above, and previous too. But sure lets go over it again. When everything will be dumbed down that will affect my enjoyment. I dont care how they play or learn, just not when the game needs to be dumbed down for them to have a chance.
Everyone have the option to learn from guild / alliance. There is a ton of guilds out there with veteran players in. Most of them really arent that hard to get into. So if u dont have this way of getting help, find urself another guild.
Are you incapable of reading? How many times and how many people have to explain, to you, that that's just not true. Go back and read.
No i read just fine. Ty for the concern though. Doesnt matter how many times someone says it or complain about it, fact is that everyone have the option to join a guild. Plenty of big friendly guilds out there. If ur guild doesnt wanna help u, or doesnt have the veteran players to know things, then find another guild. U can jump guilds as much as u want, try as many as u want. Some get lucky and find it on the first try, some have to go though several of them. Doesnt change the fact, everyone have the option.
Oh, that's why you give them a hard time when they don't learn quickly enough for you. Not only have you not answered a single question (which, again, haven't been answered *reasonably* before, just as now), but, contrary to what you say, you've proven, by your "answers", that you only want people to play, enjoy and learn the way you tell them to or they're wrong.
Not only that, but you completely ignored, as usual, what @alphastream and I had to say about challenge. The challenge isn't supposed to be in *learning* to play, but in the play, itself. If you enjoy the challenge of learning to play, great, have at, no one's asking you to stop with a tutorial that you can ignore, but you're demanding that others stop enjoying by not having the OPTION for one, if that's the way they enjoy the game.
Ive answered several times, u just to refuse to read what i said. Or ur not capable of understanding what i said.
Everyone is welcome to play the game how they see fit, how they enjoy it. But like ive said multiple times. A dumbed down game is not in my interest. And what u want is not more ways of players to learn. What u want is a dumbed down game. If a game is to hard for someone who have tried the tools at their disposal maybe they should consider another game? I for one dont go play games im bad at, and then go cry on forums that game is to hard, that i dont know what to do, that i couldnt be bothered to do my part in learning the game, and that i want them to implement more help and make it easier.
Tiamat before mod 16, those kind of people where carried though. Now they have to do their part of a group and they give up before they even tried. At launch tiamat had some bugs with the adds making it to hard. When that was fixed everyone was still abandoning it, no one wanted to do it. It was to hard, to much this and that. And yes it was hard. Just the clerics though, the heads where almost instant kills if u could get to them. Tiamat like all other dungeons in random ques suffered from alot of players not being able to balance their stats properly. Some didnt know, some didnt care, some thought it was a rich mans game. W/e the reason might me, it was on the players part. And all the blogposts that came out, with detail of stat changes, and helpfull info on some of the classes changes didnt help this issue much. Only time and countless fails will make someone wake up and start to look inwards on what to change and how to start getting better clear rates.
But still, so many was complaining about tiamat (that was fully doable and actually easier than now after the adds dmg was fixed), that they decided to change things. And its easier to coordinate 10 players instead of 25. U only have 2 clerics now so less spots to be confused about. The heads take longer, but we have double the time to kill them. So dying and having to run back no longer sets back the group as much. Gems have 1min CD instead of 2min to make up for the less amount of players. In all ways they made the trial easier. But it still requires mostly on having players coordinated. Premade group of strong players can still struggle if u dont coordinate. No amout of tutorials will change this. And thats the real problem, a problem that isnt just in tiamat. Its hard to coordinate groups in randoms for many different reasons. And tiamat might suffer more from this problem than any other place. And this is not fixed from putting in tutorials, or from making everything so easy that half the group can go afk. That doesnt fix the issue, it just hides it. And thats how it was before mod 16.
I'm again in disbelief at the development team. I can't understand how they released this new version and found it acceptable. Are they really playtesting? How could they have playtested this and found it to be a fix?
Given who you are, I found this a disappointing post.
For an average group of players, this is entirely reasonable content. If they work the mechanics and use the simple strategies of the trial; get souls, defend cleric, 1/3 off each head, repeat cleric and 1/3 2 more times.
BIS groups might be able to do it in one phase. I've never put 10 of them in 1 spot to try it.
U can do 1 phase without having everyone be BiS. If everyone does things right, if u work together. Did some 1 phase, some 2 phase last double tyranny for the tiamat things on a 20-21k alt with the groups being of average same quality as my own toon. Was 2-3 healers and 7-8 dps. Didnt use tanks for the 1 phases.
In Throne the tip on the top right of the screen will tell you to use the hulks to break the shield / prison bars. This is a useful tool and I very rarely see anyone that does not know the mechanic.
At some point they stopped doing this, CODG does not give the same advise on the skulls or ooze giving players any hints.
I agree that small tips on what is expected next is what most players would expect. This is how the quests bring you thru the entire game.
They do not tell you the best way to beat content (purple tears only) but do advise you will need to at least open the tears.
I am not for full in game tutorials but do believe much of the new content is missing very basic information on how to do things.
Remember not everyone wants to learn from watching others, PC end game players get the fun of figuring things out but late starters and console players are kicked / unwanted in groups if they expect to have the same fun experience.
Comments
The game need to provide people some info on the mechanics to speed up the process or else people's morale gonna take its toll. Like many coin heist before the fix, people just assume its undoable and leave the instance without trying. Even now after the fix, I still see people leave because they still think its undoable.
For real, after getting a** kicked at tiamat, a decent player would ask what the strat is and follow it.
Those that wanna learn mechanics they will learn. They will look for guides in text or videoes. Or they will ask their guild / alliance / friends for help and figure things out. Some people wanna learn, and get all the help they can, but still never learn. No amount of help from guild would help those. And no more game help is needed for those that wanna learn. So the group we are stuck with is the people in random ques that doesnt wanna learn.
We should ask ourself, how can we punish those who refuse to learn or try enough to force them to learn. What about upgrading the leaver system to include private ques after x leaves in a week. And increase the que timer with every leave too. And what about leaver penalty to anyone who leaves the que so u dont get a free leave after the first one leaves.
And since most random groups ive seen always have 1 or 2 veteran players who knows the mechanics, a harder leave system could motivate those to explain the mechanics to the new people so reduce the risk of fail and having to leave.
But there will always be risk with going random groups > premade groups, like language barriers. Someone not reading chat. Organizing can be hard or impossible. And the risk of getting some super casual player without bonding stones and doesnt have a care in the world for how their stats are. Thats the risk u take. And u get extra RADs for it. Dont like the risk, dont use random que. Getting back to a system where all risk is removed because a few people can solo and carry everyone is a stupid idea.
Also u cant blame people for not opening purple portal in demo run. The tutorial does not include tactics on which portal to open. Its more of a communication problem.
And u can complete tiamat without using the gems, its just a lot harder. Since in tiamat u cant do w/e u want and get ur random completion on a bronze.
Like ive said several times, it would be bad for the game if tutorials or hints where to explain mechanics. So when they dont do it other places, it shouldnt do it on tiamat either.
Shouldn't they get advice when they ask ? Some real player teaching you how to do it is far better than an in game tutorial
- There was nothing wrong with the old version in Mod 15. It was fun and rewarding.
- The current format is less fun, even if it worked, than the 25-person version.
- The current version doesn't work, because it's terribly put together. The expectations on timing, challenge, spacing... the entire thing doesn't work in the current form.
Please reinstate the old version, scaled properly.
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Some things should be challenging, but some things should have fairly reasonable completion times and just be fun. The whole Random Queue is really bad at separating these or rewarding properly for challenge. And players can't tell what should and shouldn't be challenging... devs can't figure it out either, and that's the biggest problem.
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But it does work now, mechanics work, the timings work. One thing i did notice, the dmg from the white head on the ground seems very strong, mostly oneshotting players with the DoT who stand in it. Havnt tried using the gem, cause i just move away from the AoE so i dont care myself.
Ive done some in both premade and in random groups. Timing is fine. The steps how they progress is fine. The challenge is fitting, since the biggest challenge is to make the other 9 ppl listen when u explain to them what to do. But the trial itself is fine on the challenge scale.
A few people here seem to think the new version's fun and that's fine, but they keep telling others the way they're *supposed* to have fun, too. Like I told one, basically that's like saying, "Don't like it, leave" - I won't, I'll keep exercising my right to disagree. They say if you don't want to go out of the game to learn, instead of a harmless few second tutorial, you're lazy. I agree about your "challenging" point. That and fun are a matter of perspective (hell, the whole way people learn and play the game is), but some insist that people have to do it their way or they're, somehow, lazy.
I was going to ask some questions on this topic, anyway, so I'll do it here.
To those people (one in particular):
- Why is this the right way to do Tiamat just because it works for you?
- How does it affect your enjoyment of the game if some people want to learn in-game with a few second tutorial?
- How is the above somehow "wrong" whether or not other MMOs do it or other dungeons in this one do it?
- How is a few second tutorial intrusive?
- If the above is "lazy", how do these "lazy" players affect your enjoyment of the game?
- How do you KNOW everyone has the option to learn from guildies, etc, just because you do? You don't.
- Why do you even care (going as far as being insulting) that others may enjoy the game differently from you if doesn't affect *your* enjoyment?
And what would happen if tiamat got this step by step that u are asking for. How many random que CRs do u think is completed? Or CODG? What about the other old places that no one have run a lot in years. How many can remember mechanics on cragmire? or wolf den ? If tiamat got a step by step, would shouldnt the others? And sure u might think, its only for tiamat, everyone will be ok and not ask for them on the others. But i can guarantee u that if one gets it, a lot will want to see it for everything.
"Give someone a finger, and they will take the whole hand."
Why not giving them all what they want?
I mean current Tiamat is in Random: Intermediate queue.
That's the main problem.
Either make an easier version of Tiamat for Intermediate queue or move it to Advanced queue (or do both things with better rewards for Advanced version).
Btw, please do that for Bank Heist too (make it an easier version or move it to Advanced queue, or do both things).
Don't get confuse here. Tutorial does not teach player to win. They only introduce the player to the tools available. What the player gonna do with these tools are up for them to decides.
I don't get why people are so against ingame tutorial. What harm are there to add in another source of information on top of having advice from vet player or the internet guide? Adding ingame tutorial only broaden the option for people to get their information from. Its not about which source are better. Its more about expanding the option so more type of people are expose to the information. I'm starting to think people are nitpicking here.
You misunderstand. Pre vs. post change (25 vs 10). The mechanics were completely changed. As I mentioned and @kangkeok, further elaborated on, it was supposed to be 5 per head, now it's 2. Don't tell me it's because the devs said it was too hard on the engine. It worked fine, just as PE did, but now PE instances only have 20 players in them and there's still some problems. It's difficult to believe Cryptic when they say things are WAI and then dial them back or Beholder weapons were in the game and findable, but weren't, among other things. It's been said enough times, here, that you can skip it (why do you bother telling others to learn when you won't, yourself?), so it doesn't affect your ability to figure it out at all. Again, how does it affect YOUR enjoyment for OTHERS to play and learn differently? As you said, it's a GAME. That means you enjoy it. If a tutorial, that DOESN'T affect you, helps someone enjoy it, why are you against that? Again, how does it affect YOUR enjoyment for OTHERS to play and learn differently? If that's what they enjoy, why are you against it? Again, how does it affect YOUR enjoyment for OTHERS to play and learn differently? Are you incapable of reading? How many times and how many people have to explain, to you, that that's just not true. Go back and read. Oh, that's why you give them a hard time when they don't learn quickly enough for you. Not only have you not answered a single question (which, again, haven't been answered *reasonably* before, just as now), but, contrary to what you say, you've proven, by your "answers", that you only want people to play, enjoy and learn the way you tell them to or they're wrong.
Not only that, but you completely ignored, as usual, what @alphastream and I had to say about challenge. The challenge isn't supposed to be in *learning* to play, but in the play, itself. If you enjoy the challenge of learning to play, great, have at, no one's asking you to stop with a tutorial that you can ignore, but you're demanding that others stop enjoying by not having the OPTION for one, if that's the way they enjoy the game.
Demo tutorials have never helped in random ques. Most skip them, those who watch learn nothing from them. Why would it be any different from tiamat ? Tiamat can be complete without any gems, its just slower and more of a mess, but possible. This makes the gems a tactic u can use or not. So a video telling players to grab a gem will indeed be a tutorial on what tactics to use. And even then, how many will know when to use them? how many will pick one up anyway, they either skip the video or doesnt learn from it, demo has thought us that much. The only reason u dont see people complaining about demo being to hard for them here, is that u can get the random completing from a bronze so they hardly ever fail.
If u wanna help making tiamat less of a pain in random que, make it so that when the timer runs out, u get participation trophy for sticking around 25 min, aka the random quest is completed and satisfied. But the chest at the end is still closed.
The first time I random queued into the new 10 man, I took 1 look at how hard the mobs were to kill in the first phase then applied the natural logical extensions of that difficulty to the old tactics, and cleared the trial with just me calling instructions and running at appropriate times.
The only new thing I learnt, in that first run, was that each party has to go to a side.
Kill summoners, get a soul, defend clerics, go to each head taking of 1/3 to 1/2 HP depending on group DPS, repeat until success (2nd or 3rd phase of Tia depending on your available dps).
Its the exact same tactics you had to use when Tia first dropped.
But you have to pay attention to the red splats and such now, not simply ignore them like you have for the last 5 modules.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
For an average group of players, this is entirely reasonable content. If they work the mechanics and use the simple strategies of the trial; get souls, defend cleric, 1/3 off each head, repeat cleric and 1/3 2 more times.
BIS groups might be able to do it in one phase. I've never put 10 of them in 1 spot to try it.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
It doesnt really matter what u think of cryptic or how much u believes them or not. Thats what they said, thats what we have to go on. Tiamat is old content, but u need to run it for getting boons. So making the que easier to get enough people for was a QoL in my opinion, no matter why they decided to change it.
Demo que have those cutscenes, they never helped in random ques for better clear rates. Only thing that helps clear rates is that its easier, u dont have to coordinate much of anything, and if u fail, u complete it on bronze.
So ur idea that these scenes will magically "fix" tiamat in randoms is just wrong.
And when a game needs to explain and point out mechanics and tactics for a group to follow in order to have better clear rates, thats a really sad day. Either the game is extremely hard, or the majority of players arent bright enough to play the game on the difficulty that the devs made it. So they made a game for the wrong customers. And its not the first thing, and i do hope its not the last thing. Im against what the tutorial stand for, how it can effect the game long term. Like ive said already.
There is plenty of games out there who are super hard, instant death, no forgiveness. Some like those games, some dont. Cryptic made a game with the help and difficulty they found fitting. The day they will be forced to dumb everything down because else they will lose to many player, that indeed will be a sad day. And like i said, that is where it will really effect my enjoyment.
As it is right now, i have no issues helping someone learn or understand mechanics, not when im with them in random groups either. Helping them increase my odds of a clear. But sure, lets fill the game with tutorials so that its not needed anymore. U will see suddenly no one have any kind of patience for players learning, cause there was a tutorial, so everyone should know by default. And those who doesnt will get kicked or left behind anyway no one wanting to help them. Answered above, and previous too. But sure lets go over it again. When everything will be dumbed down that will affect my enjoyment. I dont care how they play or learn, just not when the game needs to be dumbed down for them to have a chance. No i read just fine. Ty for the concern though. Doesnt matter how many times someone says it or complain about it, fact is that everyone have the option to join a guild. Plenty of big friendly guilds out there. If ur guild doesnt wanna help u, or doesnt have the veteran players to know things, then find another guild. U can jump guilds as much as u want, try as many as u want. Some get lucky and find it on the first try, some have to go though several of them. Doesnt change the fact, everyone have the option.
Ive answered several times, u just to refuse to read what i said. Or ur not capable of understanding what i said.
Everyone is welcome to play the game how they see fit, how they enjoy it. But like ive said multiple times. A dumbed down game is not in my interest. And what u want is not more ways of players to learn. What u want is a dumbed down game. If a game is to hard for someone who have tried the tools at their disposal maybe they should consider another game? I for one dont go play games im bad at, and then go cry on forums that game is to hard, that i dont know what to do, that i couldnt be bothered to do my part in learning the game, and that i want them to implement more help and make it easier.
Tiamat before mod 16, those kind of people where carried though. Now they have to do their part of a group and they give up before they even tried. At launch tiamat had some bugs with the adds making it to hard. When that was fixed everyone was still abandoning it, no one wanted to do it. It was to hard, to much this and that. And yes it was hard. Just the clerics though, the heads where almost instant kills if u could get to them. Tiamat like all other dungeons in random ques suffered from alot of players not being able to balance their stats properly. Some didnt know, some didnt care, some thought it was a rich mans game. W/e the reason might me, it was on the players part. And all the blogposts that came out, with detail of stat changes, and helpfull info on some of the classes changes didnt help this issue much. Only time and countless fails will make someone wake up and start to look inwards on what to change and how to start getting better clear rates.
But still, so many was complaining about tiamat (that was fully doable and actually easier than now after the adds dmg was fixed), that they decided to change things. And its easier to coordinate 10 players instead of 25. U only have 2 clerics now so less spots to be confused about. The heads take longer, but we have double the time to kill them. So dying and having to run back no longer sets back the group as much. Gems have 1min CD instead of 2min to make up for the less amount of players. In all ways they made the trial easier. But it still requires mostly on having players coordinated. Premade group of strong players can still struggle if u dont coordinate. No amout of tutorials will change this. And thats the real problem, a problem that isnt just in tiamat. Its hard to coordinate groups in randoms for many different reasons. And tiamat might suffer more from this problem than any other place. And this is not fixed from putting in tutorials, or from making everything so easy that half the group can go afk. That doesnt fix the issue, it just hides it. And thats how it was before mod 16.
When you go to class do you learn everything that was in that class the first time?
Do you learn it just because someone explained it?
Or do you need to think about the knowledge you were exposed to and perhaps apply it in some way that forces you to think about the knowledge?
Tutorials will not solve a thing.
To many people already cannot get the clues the game gives them, why do you think tutorials would be any different?
I say this as a person who still cannot stay on the platform in CoDG, and I've watched plenty of tutorials and still cannot get it right.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
At some point they stopped doing this, CODG does not give the same advise on the skulls or ooze giving players any hints.
I agree that small tips on what is expected next is what most players would expect. This is how the quests bring you thru the entire game.
They do not tell you the best way to beat content (purple tears only) but do advise you will need to at least open the tears.
I am not for full in game tutorials but do believe much of the new content is missing very basic information on how to do things.
Remember not everyone wants to learn from watching others, PC end game players get the fun of figuring things out but late starters and console players are kicked / unwanted in groups if they expect to have the same fun experience.