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Tiamat 10 Person is Still Unplayable
sakkara
Member Posts: 29 Arc User
I just queued for Intermediate random and got 10 person Tiamat. This quest not only is NOT an intermediate level random, it is currently still not even playable as a 25 minute timed quest. What on earth was wrong with it as a 25 person quest as it stood? As it is in its current incarnation it is more suited as an expert level queue.
So please - make the current 10 person an expert version and return the old quest as the intermediate 25 person random queue we all know and love and make us all happy and feel like we can accomplish something.
So please - make the current 10 person an expert version and return the old quest as the intermediate 25 person random queue we all know and love and make us all happy and feel like we can accomplish something.
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1) Each tank goes to 1 side.
2) Their team must get the souls to use for that side.
3) Stay on your tanks side during the Cleric phases.
4) DPS 1/3-1/2 off each head each time. Same as before all to Black, then burn down to 1/3-1/2 then Blue and so on.
In short play the mechanics and stop expecting it to be a simple smash and done.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Also the group will face more dragon breath than before since they extended the head phase and add more HP to the head in the new tiamat. So gem nowadays is more important than before. Even if one guy grab the gem there is a 10sec offset between the gem cooldown and each dragon breath. That mean 1 gem wont be enough except your healer are able to spam heal everyone during that 10sec timeframe. But that's just drain their divinity real bad. 2 gem used alternately is the ideal way in this new Tiamat. However not everyone will grab the gem or understand how or where to grab them. There is no tutorial for new player. Once less than 2 gem of a same color are collected, the group are gonna have a hard time. Even if there are 2 gem but used simultaneously, its gonna be same as u had 1 gem. Its more forgiving when its a 25man dungeon since there is more likely more people will grab the same gem and not use them simultaneously.
Anyway, people play Tiamat pretty much differently since its first launch. Almost 90% of the people grab gem in the past where as nowadays probably 10-20% of the people do that. U can almost see if the run is a fail by simply looking at how many gem are grab. My suggestion to it is that to add a tutorial phase in Tiamat to at least educate people about the existence of the dragon gem, tone down the Tiamat head HP a little bit and have the gem cooldown extended so 1 gem is enough to block every dragon breath. This dungeon is hard because everyone action matters and we have no control over their action. The developer should make it more forgiving by loosen up the mechanic abit.
My group took 4 minutes to kill the summoners. Then we quickly disposed of Severin. But - and this is a big but - it took a long time and several wipes to deal with the heads and by that time the time allotted had expired and most of the players had left the dungeon.
A tutorial would be a wonderful idea to teach people how to do this quest.
U just have to focus and follow the mechanics like every other place. All tiamats ive done since it came back we killed heads in second round. And thats without limited ppl based on itemlvl, but just taking anyone that wants to go.
First, for public queues (my schedule's pretty random, among other things, and that's my only option), there are too many mechanics going on. EVERYONE needs to grab a gem (that's two people with each color of gem = 10). Then, they need to fight *away* from the clerics, not on top of them. I've tried to tell people and tried to get aggro on my rogue to pull the mob away and use a shadow to keep them there for a little while, but rarely does anyone listen (one time there was no one on my side, so I dragged the mob to the other side, lol).
After all that, the heads... Unless you can get their attention (difficult), people really want to kill off each head and, if they can't be killed on the first round, start to drop out or ask for an abandon (this happens even when most heads were brought down to 20% or so). Yesterday was the closest I came to completing this since the change. Two runs had someone calling out directions, one of them me (I find this difficult while fighting as a rogue - my main), and they still failed. Someone still asked for an abandon right when people were starting to get the mechanics, though it didn't get abandoned (I'm sure that kept spirits up, though, lol). We almost had it...
For that matter, why not allow the same people to restart it instead of join a new queue? Other dungeons allow that, even the Bank Heist - sometimes people learn the mechanics too late and want to give it another go, sometimes not, but it's more chance to learn. Often, they vote to abandon it claiming it can't be beat (those are the people that don't want to learn, just want to be carried) - that's essentially what happens, here, when you aren't *allowed* to try again. As I said, we nearly had it, people had begun to understand the mechanics and, BOOM, fail, go join another queue. C'mon, give people the chance to learn and try again with the same people who've also learned along with them.
Anyway, sorry about the long post, but this is frustrating and these issues really need to be addressed. I don't think this is about people unwilling to learn or play by the mechanics, but people UNABLE to learn them because things move fast, no restart and, now, less players. Like the OP, I don't find that acceptable in an *intermediate* "dungeon". I want to give a big "THANK YOU!" to people who call out directions.
As for people not listing or giving a HAMSTER about what anyone says in a random que. Well thats normal for all ques. If u wanna avoid that, dont do randoms alone. Gather up a party to do them with. No amount of tutorial or changes can make up for this. Only way is for players who dont listen to chats to run their head against the walls in dungeons and being unable to complete over and over and over again. Eventually they might start to listen, or ask someone why they keep failing and being unable to complete said place.
But the way random ques used to work was that 1 player was able to carry 4 bots though anything expect latest 1 or 2 releases. So everyone got used to not having to follow mechanics. Not having to listen. Not having to pay attention. Someone would always carry them. And if not, they just abandon and the next group will have 1 carry. Mod 16 made this harder in some places. But changing the way players see content and randoms. Making this change is gonna take time. This doesnt mean there should be tutorials, or everything should be easier. Doing that would counter all the changes mod 16 is trying to bring out.
IMO, if they want us to play to a mechanic they should post the mechanic somewhow or a least have a text summary of the mission. I have not ever and will never look on the internet on how to play a game mission. To me, this is the job of the game.
Cradle, Castle Ravenloft and Drufi are fails in terms of game information. Everyone says.. .go look on the interent. I won't. Unfortunately other players must suffer through my dozen fails till I learn whats going on. This is the game's failure.
If Cryptic was doing their job, they would have done so much better to explain what everyone needed to do in MOD16 and what to expect. A few short paragraphs on what was happening was woefully lacking and to expect most players to know what to do in these new situations in naive especially when you consider how many young people (read as "kids") play and how many casual players there are. Most of them are not going to invest a lot of time looking up what to do. They are just going to play as normal and work it out as they go. Like it or not.
That is bad for people who need to complete things like Tiamat for progression and that sort of thing. Also, there are plenty or elite players that play Neverwinter that don't have a lot of mates to easily join up with on these bigger trials and, skirmishes eve if they are in a good guild. Even having something you read that is text based before you play the first time would help greatly. Remember, a lot of people play with the sound down or off or just have gotten used to not listening to NPCs.
Sadly, until things sort of settle down these types of things will just drive away the more casual players and annoy the more serious because they are not able to advance due to lack of players willing to learn mechanics. MOD16 has made mechanics more important but this also increases the learning curve. If existing players are willing to relearn and do the extra work I think things will get better but part of me worries that many players will just throw their hands and up and look for different pastures.
Cradle, Castle Ravenloft, Drufi is all the same. There is help, there is info for the parts that needs it. The rest is up to the players level of skill. Some learn fast. Some never learn. Just because ur incapable of learning a mechanic doesnt mean its bad or broken. I will never learn how to do FPS games. So i dont play them. Thats not the games fault, thats mine. NW is the same.
Anyway, if you had read what I said, I agree that you learn, but not that you're given much of a chance here. Most just follow the crowd and smash what everyone else is smashing, lol. That means kill each head in turn unless someone tells you otherwise. You don't learn that way, you fail and don't know why. That's why I praise the people who give directions - it's not fun and it's not easy. I think, other than the one that wanted to abandon, it was appreciated (why it wasn't abandoned). People saw it was working and listened more and learned. They saw it COULD be beat (it was close) when some probably thought otherwise, previously, like the Bank Heist. Again, as I said, that's not an option for some people, defeats the point of having that option and is the usual lazy type of response - "Don't like it, leave". No, I'll stick around and *try* to make things better, thanks. Yes, I know how things worked before (probably everyone here does). That's where I learned the mechanics. I followed the crowd (as above), but I learned because there was room to learn and I'm naturally stubborn, lol. I don't think anyone here is saying it should be easier, per se, but that there needs to be a *way* to learn it, whether tutorial, time to explain at the beginning, calling out and/or starting over with the same group, random or not.
Some of us who were around in Mod 5 have literally run this HUNDREDS of times. Pick their brains. It's doable -- maybe not if everyone is only 13k, but a group averaging 17-18k should be able to handle it.
Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
My Foundry playthrough channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Ruskaga/featured
are players in other mmo complaining that the dozens if not hundreds of dungeons bosses / trial / raid have no tutorials...? only in neverwinter would you here whining of this nature ...
do other huge mmos franchises dungeons/trials have tutorials for mid to high end loot dropping missions ? that are designed to be repeated a million times anyways ..
so wouldn't joining a good competent guild be a good place to start for these missing tutorials / get more information
oh thats right nevewinter is more of a social mmo now ...
how would such a hand holding tutorial be implemented anyways ..a chest opens and your just get your loot /
the game plays your character for you ..a box pops up with a wall of text for you to read for twenty minutes holding up your group?? that people will skip / ignore anyways .// a link pops up to a youtube walkthru ?? you get 200% hitpoints but no loot ? .. how does the tutorials tell you which power you should be using and when? ..is this a class specific tutorial? ..
does the tutorial change based on your item level/ gear lol ?
everyone is quick to throw around the word tutorial what kind of tutorial ??
what about people that refuse to do the tutorial system / learn the mechanics anyways ?
what about people that play the game that dont read / under stand any of the languages it is in ?
dont they use google or ask guild members ?
I mean how casual of a causal of a casual incompetent type should we be catering to here .,.
if they are so casual they cant read / inform themselves then they cant fill out information to buy cryptic zen either ,,,
and are not a majority that should be catered to anyways .
Where do u think those zerg mechanic from black to white u have learned came from? If its not for those player that posted them as a tutorial/guide in the forum back in mod5, no one will ever know about zerg tactics in Tiamat today. Be respectful to guides and tutorial. U are not who u are today without them.
Today is no longer yesterday. There are more new clueless player, spoiled player that rely on other to carry in the past, player that used to brute everything to even bother with mechanic, than those old player that know the mechanic. U cant solely rely on player figure things out themselves either. Not everyone has the same comprehension level or understand a game mechanic as fast/slow as anyone else by their own. A guide is needed to at least bring everyone to the same level where they at least know the basic mechanics. Not everyone is born a soldier. Some still require basic training.
Why should i have to post any video? .. I am not a known liar in these forums lol
and just because you want me to do recording in a quantity of runs that you control in some skewed betting that i did not agree on dont mean hamster . no kidding it does not happen everyday lol it happens multiple times per day ..
so i am Liar in the forums if i dont do your ridiculous demands lol?
I Like how you did responded to my what kind of in game tutorial is needed in game inquiry and chose to nit pick and not answer all my good points .. i think you are confused regarding what kind of tutorials people want and that i was pondering / stating view points in the forums.
now you are telling me to be respectful to guides lol who said i was not ?.. people are complaining here that there should be guides but no one should have too look them up for themselves externally from the game ..that it should be built into the game somehow ..that no ones uses google .. ...reading comprehension 101 bro get a clue people are to lazy too look up existing guides for themselves ..
you need to re read the context of what i wrote ..I never said people did not create helpful guides..just the newer generation of casual gamers want the tutorial built right into the game. stop confusing in game forum / video guides that do exist to built in game tutorials that people are asking for , that is what/ why i was debating thier use
Fyi I am 26k + item level I can take an entire side practically by myself in the cleric protection phase of dragon Queen so of coarse i can carry short manned teams
and it happens often im sorry did i need to send you video proof of my item level/ gear / mounts / companions now / scaled in tiamat lolz
no one is arguing that there are more new clueless players i certainly am not ..some require basic training no kidding.. if they want to join a guild and not go at it solo and be arrogant and sabotage the group cause they dont want to read or learn
people want tutorials for every little dungeons every little trial every little everything ..built right into the Neverwinter game
thats why i said this comment below ,..
" are players in other mmo complaining that the dozens if not hundreds of dungeons bosses / trial / raid have no tutorials..." (written)
guides exist that are written in game for other mmos for some areas but not every developers trial / raid etc has resources committed to a tutorial built right into the game ,,.,.for every single damm boss mechanic / dungeon
get it we are debating creating tutorials built right into the game that people are asking for (not me ) vs using guides that people need to look up for themselves externally that are already there / exist /no kidding I know that
Guides, tutorials, guilds, alliances. All of that is available to everyone they just have to go look for it and find it. But for something like tiamat the mechanics really isnt that hard. U have the quest tracker, u have audio. Both will tell u what to do. If u look and listen u can learn the mechanics in a few runs.
And if ur the person who have done many many runs and still dont understand, then ask someone, look for guides online. If ur the person who is unable to learn with what the game gives u of hits and help, its ur job to find other sources who can explain it in so much detail that even u can understand it. The game should not be catered to the dumbest person out there, it shouldnt be for the smartest one either. It should be for the average person. And it is. That means there will be some who think everything is to easy, and some will think everything is impossible. And then the masses of inbetween thats fine.
Guide and tutorial are needed for new player. U said it yourself, "its your job to find other source who can explain it". What do u think the source are if its not guidance from experienced player?
Also, it always helps to have more people to know about the mechanics. In game tutorial provide people with a new source of information they need. Like those guide in the forum or fansite, they are just a source of information except ingame tutorial are more accessible. I see no reason why its a bad thing to add a new source.