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Official M16: Warlock

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  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User
    vorphied said:

    > @lordtweety#3604 said:

    > Any chance you can take a look at daily powers balance? Brood of Hadar already was the most powerful single target daily before mod 16 and now the gap has widened a lot more for no apparent reason.

    >

    > Why are you asking him to nerf the only decent daily we have?



    I assume he’s suggesting to bring the underperforming dailies in line with BoH, not to nerf BoH to their level.

    Except we know that isn't how it works.

    The underperforming powers are underperforming because they have other features that, in theory, make up for their lack of damage and overall performance. I don't know what they are though and in using them I find that whatever they are supposed to be doing besides raw damage make 0 difference to my combat - so they never get used.

    Noworries has stated earlier in this thread that to raise damage magnitude they have to drop other functionality and likewise, to add functionality they have to reduce magnitude. Look at HfR, it had a 20+ second cooldown and did a lot of damage. Now it has a faster cooldown, but does little damage. Fiery bolt, as a single target encounter was doing s/t like 700mag damage, back to an aoe and it does bugger all. But it does that bugger all to multiple targets and spreads curse.

    So asking for disparity between dailies to be addressed is asking for it to be nerfed.

    The base issue that needs addressing with the warlock is that the class has gone from a smooth play style with lower damage numbers (compared to some other DPS classes) to a clunky, mechanic heavy play style class with low damage numbers.

    I can live with a mechanic heavy, clunky play style if it results in larger damage numbers, but it doesn't. Just as I can live with lower damage numbers with a smooth play style. But that is not what we have in mod 16.

    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 39 Arc User
    After spending quite some time with Hellbringer i checked out Soulweaver now in Vanrakdoom with lvl 80 mobs. For me that felt quite pleasing. Survivability felt good, there were some reasonable number on healing me and my companion and to my surprise i did not have the feeling that dps was really lower than with Hellbringer.

    Even if the armies of lost Immolation Spirits are gone now i am still sure that i observed kind of invisible immortal Immolation Spirits. That should be revised again.

    I used PoP, Harrow Storm and Killing Flames as encounter and Essence Defiler and Soul Reconstruction as at-wills. Dailies are Brood of Hadar and Accursed Souls.

    I did not check all of the companions i have at hand but it felt that my good old Sellsword (epic) performed very well probably dealing a good part of the damage. Being a supporter for my companion does feel right in a certain way when playing with focus on healing. But that combination felt like performing better or equally than my Hellbringer build and that is kind of strange and gives me the feeling that Hellbringer still needs some more beef on the ribs.

    If it is that a support character can push a striker companion would it not be logical if a healer comapnion could push the character too? That is asking for some dps buff coming from healer companions to push a striker character - is this reasonable?
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 593 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    I don't understand what's going on with this weekend patch but Hellbringer Warlock is mostly broken in a bad way.

    Testing done inside master expeditions.



    Killing Flames does NOT apply curses.
    Vampiric Embrace does NOT spawn a soul puppet.
    Fiery Bolt does NEITHER apply curses NOR consumes curses NOR EVEN is a single target bazooka.
    Arms of Hadar STILL has a cumulative cooldown.
    Arms of Hadar FAILS to hit enemies in front of you if floor is not perfectly plain.
    Hellfire Ring does NOT apply curses unless target is affected by casting, first AND second damage ticks.
    Flames of Phlegethos does NO area damage until second and following damage ticks. If target dies it does NO area damage. Many times area damage does NOT work because floor is not plain.



    Updated 20:38 GMT+1 time
    OK, is seems that @ramesh84 was right, I didn't respect but changed loadout and now curses are being applied as expected.

    So I'll have to retest this again.
    Post edited by nisckis on
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 128 Arc User


    Lesser Curse procs deal >10% on a single target and At Wills get buffed significant, proccing 25mag on every application.

    IMHO that's the case we need to see the big picture rather than a single power's effect. We currently have three possible choices on hellbringer side, have to say kudos to Devs for that, because having that possible in a single DPS paragon is awesome, let's not forget that, as some other classes I am playing still don't have this chance:
    A: Curse consume/removal
    B: Curse synergy
    C: A and B hybrid
    on AoE:
    A: Hellfire Ring + Fiery Bolt/Arms of Hadar (with no targeting issue) + Curse bite
    B: Hellfire Ring + Fiery Bolt + Dreadtheft or Blades
    C: no viable options
    A outperforms B and C, mainly due to curse bite is a better designed encounter than Dreadtheft or Blades. A simple solution would come just reducing cooldown and buffing Dreadtheft damage, or add a X% increased damage/sparks from curse synergy effect. I'd say not too much please, as A requires more timing/targeting skill. Taking away curse removal effect from Curse Bite would require additional effort, as many feats/powers will become useless and Dreadtheft would stay in its current state.
    on Single target:
    A: Hadar Grasp + Vampiric Embrace + Killing Flames
    B: Hellfire Ring + Blades + Killing Flames
    C: Hadar Grasp + Hellfire Ring + Killing Flames
    A and C outperform B due to design reasons too, here reasons and possible actions are a bit more complex IMHO:
    - B is allowing not to slot All Consuming Curse and has better spark generation -> more damage from soul scorch -> better cooldown reduction from Soul Spark Recovery feat;
    - A brings on table an additional damage source from Deadly Curse + All Consuming Curse combo but mainly from Soul investiture stacks, as puppet damage is more than doubled that way.
    - C can situationally outperform A in long and static fights, as mixing both benefits.
    What I see as possible solutions are:
    1. Reduce Soul investiture buff/stack to 10% or max number of stacks to 3 -> 5-7% single target damage loss to compensate.
    2. Increase spark gain from curse synergy powers: I don't like it, as rotation would get more Soul Scorch dependant.
    3. Give a Soul Investiture mechanic to curse synergy only, like "you gain a Soul investiture stack as long a curse stays on a target for more than X seconds": that would buff B only, making balancing easier.
    4. Remove curse spawning effect on some A skills and add puppet summon effect to Soul Scorch: I don't like that too, as would probably make C best option by far.

    About dailies: I can stand with flames of phlegethos and gates of hell current state only thinking they are just as a placeholder for something better would come in future. Would be awesome having them with mod16 but have no clue about the ETA and surely plenty of stuff on classes and content side have a way higher priority.
    I also like the above mentioned proposals 5e related. Concerning functionality, I am more to add something with different effect than raw damage, there's no point generation clones as, like somebody else already stated, the ones we have are working. Here's some quick thoughts:
    - Tyrannical curse: currently the 20% debuff effect is applied to daily damage only, is that WAI or a bug? If WAI I would suggest to remove the 1000 magnitude damage (and related debuff) and reduce the ap cost to 30, keeping 1 target cap; that would provide a different option for AoE, as tyrannical curse is one of few warlock powers with a target cap higher than 5. Other option is letting every attack benefit from the debuff, to provide another single target option, especially because, for what I got, the 10% from Warlock Curse feat is on a different layer than the "added effect" debuff, that means they should not overriding and that's cool, thank you.
    - Gates of Hell: I do like the idea of a big area, circle/cone/whatever, dealing DoT and providing personal/team utility (cooldown reduction, combat advantage, ap or spark gain).
    - Flames of Phlegethos: it could either work replacing the damage to nearby enemies effect with a damage buff to target or a heal effect, swapping positioning with Immolation Spirits.

    Sorry for long post, have a great day.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    according to what @geekoxxiii allready posted I did some testings on preview, checking the actual values of powers.

    That´s my results, sry for the poor grafik, my job does not center arround graphics :)

    Sry..GoH was a wrong number, it`s 900 mag, my fault, I critted maybe 5 times in a row and did not recognize it in the end, since my char was stripped to the bone, having near no critstat.

    @noworries#8859 can you please correct tooltips and fix some issues here and there ?
    Powerreplenish for Dreadtheft is far too low-10 for activation once+5 each tic at least, otherwise you are punished on top even daring to chose that encounter.
    Dark Spiral Charge is actually nice recharging your AP with 16 + 14 on creation in combat
    Brood of Hadar deals less than it should, GoH is in a BAD spot I think, upfrondamage from Hellfire Ring is low compared to the DOT, maybe invert it like 200 on hit 100 on the DOT, or 150:150.
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • espasbadfistespasbadfist Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 39 Arc User
    @schietindebux awesome dilligence (others too of course). Still amazed how you stay so passionate.
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    nisckis said:


    Killing Flames does NOT apply curses.
    Fiery Bolt does NEITHER apply curses NOR consumes curses NOR EVEN is a single target bazooka.
    Hellfire Ring does NOT apply curses unless target is affected by casting, first AND second damage ticks.

    Had same issues, fixed by respeccing
  • ramesh84ramesh84 Member Posts: 128 Arc User

    GoH is in a good spot I think,

    @schietindebux had same result before last patch, only difference on GoH, as It had same values than AS first hit on each target (tried both with 1 and 4 targets).
    If actually 1700-ish magnitude on each target could be a work in progress buff not included in this patch notes.
  • samfandango#1314 samfandango Member Posts: 28 Arc User
    FB is applying curse as is KF, and responding quite quickly too. Nice
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    ramesh84 said:


    Lesser Curse procs deal >10% on a single target and At Wills get buffed significant, proccing 25mag on every application.

    IMHO that's the case we need to see the big picture rather than a single power's effect. We currently have three possible choices on hellbringer side, have to say kudos to Devs for that, because having that possible in a single DPS paragon is awesome, let's not forget that, as some other classes I am playing still don't have this chance:
    A: Curse consume/removal
    B: Curse synergy
    C: A and B hybrid
    on AoE:
    A: Hellfire Ring + Fiery Bolt/Arms of Hadar (with no targeting issue) + Curse bite
    B: Hellfire Ring + Fiery Bolt + Dreadtheft or Blades
    C: no viable options
    A outperforms B and C, mainly due to curse bite is a better designed encounter than Dreadtheft or Blades. A simple solution would come just reducing cooldown and buffing Dreadtheft damage, or add a X% increased damage/sparks from curse synergy effect. I'd say not too much please, as A requires more timing/targeting skill. Taking away curse removal effect from Curse Bite would require additional effort, as many feats/powers will become useless and Dreadtheft would stay in its current state.
    on Single target:
    A: Hadar Grasp + Vampiric Embrace + Killing Flames
    B: Hellfire Ring + Blades + Killing Flames
    C: Hadar Grasp + Hellfire Ring + Killing Flames
    A and C outperform B due to design reasons too, here reasons and possible actions are a bit more complex IMHO:
    - B is allowing not to slot All Consuming Curse and has better spark generation -> more damage from soul scorch -> better cooldown reduction from Soul Spark Recovery feat;
    - A brings on table an additional damage source from Deadly Curse + All Consuming Curse combo but mainly from Soul investiture stacks, as puppet damage is more than doubled that way.
    - C can situationally outperform A in long and static fights, as mixing both benefits.
    What I see as possible solutions are:
    1. Reduce Soul investiture buff/stack to 10% or max number of stacks to 3 -> 5-7% single target damage loss to compensate.
    2. Increase spark gain from curse synergy powers: I don't like it, as rotation would get more Soul Scorch dependant.
    3. Give a Soul Investiture mechanic to curse synergy only, like "you gain a Soul investiture stack as long a curse stays on a target for more than X seconds": that would buff B only, making balancing easier.
    4. Remove curse spawning effect on some A skills and add puppet summon effect to Soul Scorch: I don't like that too, as would probably make C best option by far.

    About dailies: I can stand with flames of phlegethos and gates of hell current state only thinking they are just as a placeholder for something better would come in future. Would be awesome having them with mod16 but have no clue about the ETA and surely plenty of stuff on classes and content side have a way higher priority.
    I also like the above mentioned proposals 5e related. Concerning functionality, I am more to add something with different effect than raw damage, there's no point generation clones as, like somebody else already stated, the ones we have are working. Here's some quick thoughts:
    - Tyrannical curse: currently the 20% debuff effect is applied to daily damage only, is that WAI or a bug? If WAI I would suggest to remove the 1000 magnitude damage (and related debuff) and reduce the ap cost to 30, keeping 1 target cap; that would provide a different option for AoE, as tyrannical curse is one of few warlock powers with a target cap higher than 5. Other option is letting every attack benefit from the debuff, to provide another single target option, especially because, for what I got, the 10% from Warlock Curse feat is on a different layer than the "added effect" debuff, that means they should not overriding and that's cool, thank you.
    - Gates of Hell: I do like the idea of a big area, circle/cone/whatever, dealing DoT and providing personal/team utility (cooldown reduction, combat advantage, ap or spark gain).
    - Flames of Phlegethos: it could either work replacing the damage to nearby enemies effect with a damage buff to target or a heal effect, swapping positioning with Immolation Spirits.

    Sorry for long post, have a great day.
    A lot I agree with, here are my thoughts.
    Actually running a build with high recovery on sparks, I feel like having significant problems getting a solid rotation running, despite the fact that a build focussed on Soul investiture using ACC+DC is performing better on focus damage atm.
    I don´t feel like the class needs a push into a higher sparkrecovery same as higher Scorch/KF/CD reset output as you point at, the class allready plays pretty "hyperactive", since cooldowns are low on top.

    1. I´d prefer to lift magnitude on encounterpowers and same way increase cooldowns on a balanced level.
    That way the option to run a spark orientated recovery-build would feel less "stressing" and maybe worth it/rewarding on a geared level, if general stats get adjusted on a healthy level.
    2. I also would agree about lowering the stacks of Soulinvestiture, since stacking that buff up to 5 as a main goal just punishes the warlock in so many aspect and is an annoyance most of the time. Maybe just 3 stacks as you said for 7%, lasting for 20 seconds ONLY if you took Soul Desecration on top, or maybe make that buff work only in combination with SD, not without.
    3. As mentioned above I think feats should get reverted since there is no point picking Soul Desecration actually in any setup.

    ->now you have a pure dps setup with straight buffs, same as other classes are build, not that dependant on a puppet, able to go into recovery/CD reduction, being buffed for 20% from feats, ignoring ACC/DC by running FoE+DtD and encounter like KF+BoVA/HR+ encounter "xy" with higher burst (needs to be implemented) and...
    you have a Puppet orientated build, focussing on that Puppet, being less bursty but might have a better utility for less geared player, buffing puppet damage and own encounter-damage, using encounter that are less spark focussed being slower in the sum but may be rewarding if buffed up by spending a constant 21% encounter-buff + a buffed puppet +3x60%.

    So in case of that scenario you might think: "I just pick SI over Creeping Death and Executionres gift on top", the effect will be, you have to chose HG + "xy" + KF, your 21% encounter buff stacks slow and runs off in the end, same as having less CD reduction and less spark gain, you will not overcome Creeping Death flat 10% buff I think...has to be balanced thoughtfully.
    Pick N°1 is a pure dps spec, more rewarding but in need of more efforts to perform and
    Pick N°2 is a slower more confortible build, less stressing in the end, going all the puppet route inclusive Wrathfull Souls with a stable 15% encounter buff running of after 20 seconds, maybe Wrathfull Souly could buff the puppet to have 100% + HP.
    Barbarians Ragemeter needs 100 seconds to drop to zero !
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    ramesh84 said:

    GoH is in a good spot I think,

    @schietindebux had same result before last patch, only difference on GoH, as It had same values than AS first hit on each target (tried both with 1 and 4 targets).
    If actually 1700-ish magnitude on each target could be a work in progress buff not included in this patch notes.
    That´s a really strange thing here, now values are set lower on 900mag -> too low, checked it few hours back--> 1720 all the time ?
    ... maybe me maybe @noworries#8859 at work.. on a sunday??
    PS: found the error..unexpected crits several times in a row on a char with near no critstat...
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    Also, even if they were at work, changing something like that requires a patch and none of those happened today.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 593 Arc User
    OK, is seems that @ramesh84 was right, I didn't respect but changed loadout and now curses are being applied as expected.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    only wanted to point at the latest results @thefabricant posted here
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1246312/official-m16-general-feedback
    Actually the warlock doesn´t look that desparate and with few improvements the class can perform not only concerning dps but also gameplay, esp. if I compare the gameplay vs. other classes I tested so far from wich I dislike my DC having clunky nonfluent gameplay, dislike the GF with it´s looong CD´s, same as I think OP, smashing all stuff with one encounter is not a perfect product, not that it´s not satisfying but somehow monotone.
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 593 Arc User
    Is it me only or Creeping Death is not working at all?
  • mongol69mongol69 Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    > @nisckis said:
    > Is it me only or Creeping Death is not working at all?

    If you hit a target and wait a bit it may proc creeping death damage channel but appears that dots will cancel and overide it. So, super sweet feat. Try removing weapon enchant and testing with npnm acc to apply lc and hr at will only, hit and wait about 8 seconds and check log to see it in action, if your lucky.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • nisckisnisckis Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 593 Arc User
    I'm not doing any DoT but it doesn't activate :(
  • mongol69mongol69 Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Creeping death is broken, use ri.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • pyrosorcererpyrosorcerer Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 135 Arc User
    hawkeyel said:

    I really do feel this Mod. would have been better if they had just added a new healer class and did the SW as they did the CW and made it DPS only. Being that both the Fury and Damnation are both very different play styles and pushing them both into a very limited way to play either. Makes being a Hellbring a very broken mess. While I will agree, tests on a target dummy looks okay. In game play however it is the SW that then becomes the target dummy. Good luck.

    absolutely not, if there was a disagree button I'd press it a 100 times. There are several equally interested in healer spec as in the other that I know, myself included.
  • warravanawarravana Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    Can you then explain to us in which edition of the D&D the healer's warlock was formed, who made a deal with Archdemon Belial on the class quest?
    El sol negro brilla, en la frente de la locura el firmar,
    Kelemvor tomó mi trono de la muerte, pero soy eterno en la oscuridar...
    https://www.youtube.com/c/cyric
  • mongol69mongol69 Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    > @douglasopferbeck said:
    > I agree that I would prefer to see two fully fleshed out dps paths instead of the hybrid damanation/fury dps we have currently.

    ^^ 100%
    I started my warlock as dps, after owlbear "fix", as many did, I made a templock loadout. That was only to be functionally useful in a team for group buffs, but went right back to dps once it became viable again.
    I didnt invest into the warlock with the mindset of, hey wouldn't it be great to heal and do moderate damage.
    Post edited by mongol69 on
  • frogwalloper#6494 frogwalloper Member Posts: 787 Arc User

    I agree that I would prefer to see two fully fleshed out dps paths instead of the hybrid damanation/fury dps we have currently.

    I'd be happy with ONE dps path that's decent enough that it isn't immediately forbidden from taking up a dps spot.
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User

    I really do feel this Mod. would have been better if they had just added a new healer class and did the SW as they did the CW and made it DPS only.

    hawkeyel said:

    absolutely not, if there was a disagree button I'd press it a 100 times. There are several equally interested in healer spec as in the other that I know, myself included.

    I never wanted a heal spec. I don't play buffer anymore with my warlock either.

    The temptation warlock is a major dps buffer. Healing, since they did the last class balancing act became a side effect. Allies do 20% more damage to targets affected by your Warlocks Curse. That line from the temptation capstone is why Temptation became an endgame dungeon requirement. It was never about the healing. Too many warlocks don't understand this.

    Personally, I cringe anytime someone says they love being a Healer Warlock. I don't understand it, there is a perfectly awesome Cleric that can heal with their divine whatsits, while my Warlock feeds her patron Arch Devil with the souls of her victims.

    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • arakk00arakk00 Member Posts: 166 Arc User
    @lordtweety#3604 It basically boils down to the simple fact that not all warlock players are edgelords who liked the unhealthy 'only damage' meta. Before Mod 6, Temptation was a SERIOUS HEALER. It didn't have any damage on the capstone. It just healed your allies for twice your lifesteal rating. Before mod 6, that was enough to make us good-because we still needed healing, and we did more damage than a 'full buff' DC or a healer DC. What ended up being the arrangement, usually, was that the Templock would heal AND do damage. In other words- these changes move us back toward where we were before the game started floating down HAMSTER creek.
    A <Friendly Dragon>!
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