arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
I have to say, with my recent delve into archery, it makes more sense for rain of arrows to be with the warden, which I use for AOE. Hunters are primarily single target, and having another root ability would be great, although might be a bit of a waste on bosses.
On the point about making single target and AOE separate paths, it makes sense to me, most bosses have a campfire for you to switch loadouts (iirc switching from dps to dps is still allowed for public queues)
The suggestion is not to hijack or gimp archery. Binding makes more sense as a common power or a hunter power based on theme and feats. Keep in mind, Hunter is not solely for archery. There are hybrid builds there too. Instead of being rude, why don't you make a counter suggestion? What would you swap it with? Or, provide credible reasoning for not swapping it other than "I use the power you suggested swapping it with". Why do you think it fits better in Warden?
No it does not make sense. Did you read my assessment?
How many of you run Archer on live? How many of you run Archery with Binding Arrow on live? My guess. Zero.
Warden feats are primarily designed for Trappers. Hunter feats primarily designed for Archers. Obvious! ( Or are you pretending to not to have read the in-game texts at the very least? Because the in-game description make it obvious. The feats itself if you read them - I'm sure you did - make it doubly obvious).
Now if you want to play Hunter as trapper, expect to be gimped.
Now instead of playing Trapper Hunter gimped (as is). You suggest replacing Binding Arrow in the core powers which will gimp Archery in path designed primarily for Archers, because as I've said, Archers need Rain of Arrows as core powers for "80% solo game" with mobs in groups of multiples.
And which part again of my post is "rude"?
So you're a Trapper who wants to double dip on Archery Feats/Powers AND still access Binding Arrow.
On the flipside Archers will player double gimped as Warden with no Archery feats just to access Rain of Arrow.
That's called hi-jacking b/c Hunters are obviously catered for Archery first. You want your cake and eat it too. And as a result, Archery gets the empty saucer because we have to go Warden Tree just to do our solo with Rain of Arrows.
My suggestion?
Play Trapper as Warden ungimped. Play Archery as Hunter ungimped. Play Trapper as Hunter gimped. Play Archery as Warden gimped.
Instead of trying to unsettle the designed (nee "overbalanced") heirarchy trying to play Trapper as Hunter ungimped and forcing Archery play Warden double gimped.
That or wait for actual changes in Ranger powers and magnitude first. You all make a determination that Binding Arrow is better than the proven and Archery-reliable (live and always) Rain of Arrrows based on preliminary numbers and magnitudes.
Yet on live, how many of you player Archery + Binding Arrow again? Zero right?
I don't actually use binding Arrow, and I probably still wouldn't in most situations. I am also currently playing trapper in Warden, as you "suggest" and wouldn't be gaining anything useful with this swap; I don't like Rain. But I am looking at this from the perspective of what makes sense, not just what I want. Both paragons are intended to be equally viable as pure and hybrid builds. Hunter hybrid is intended as the root build for a hybrid. The feats say so. Therefore, it is reasonable to suggest that Hunter have access to a power which procs roots. It is extra reasonable to say that the power would be a useful common power based on it's companion power oak skin being a utility power which as is would have use only at lower levels. He suggested swapping it with Rain based on the current assessment of how the various builds will work in M16, not on how they work in M15. I don't have as deep an analysis of the numbers as he does; Rain may or may not be the appropriate power to swap. I get you on the ST vs AoE swap. AoE is a premium. But the idea that Hunter should have access to Binding Arrow is reasonable based on the redesign and current feat set up. You don't like hybrid builds? That's fine. You don't have to. You don't want to lose Rain? Okay. That's very obvious. But that in no way devalues the solid reasoning behind moving Binding. What power would you change instead of Rain? The idea is for both paths and all 4 builds to be balanced and viable.
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arazith07Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,719Arc User
Both Hunter and Warden have feats that make Archery builds possible. Same with combat, and Trapper or hybrid builds. These are just the archer specific ones (though some can be applied to pure combat as well) Warden: First Feat-25% more damage for staying in one stance for >10 seconds Second Feat-reduces cooldowns of encounters of the same stance as the triggered power. Thirds Feat-10% damage boost to lightning stuff which happens to be mostly ranged powers. Hunter: Third Feat-applies a 5% more damage to one target boost when you use a ranged power Fourth Feat-Ranged encounter powers do 50% more damage with a 50% reduction to melee.
Imo, both are just as much lending to an archery play style, just with different focus on aoe vs single target when you get into the path specific powers. The Longshot feat in Hunter might make an obvious choice, until you factor in cooldowns or the type of content or fight you are in.
Thank you. Can you create a damage per time variable say over 60 seconds how much damage that at will or encounter can do. Since cool down is a factor in my choosing of powers.
I surely can add columns to doc, but, please, explain me, what exactly do you need. If you want the estimation of total magnitude per period of time (say 60 seconds), then you can check that this value is equal to Magnitude * 60 / (cast time + cooldown time), and as Mps = Magnitude / (cast time + cooldown time), then the value you are asking me to add is basically Mps * 60. 60 is the constant value. If you want to make a decision which power to pick based on comparison of Magnitude per some period of time, then straight comparison of Mps will return same result to you.
Why not swap binding with rapid volley? Hunter seems like a single target and root based path while warden looks like multi target and storm based path. Binding is root based while rapid volley is multi target. Seems to fit in well.
1. They both can be single and multiple-target. 2. That swap could be possible either, but here's the problem: Warden already got new daily and at-will. I think it's unlikely to happen that devs will accept this swap, just because in case of such a swap warden gets 3 new powers, whereas hunter gets no new powers at all.
But frankly, I don't like suggestion that ask for swap. Its a rule set by the developer and we are asking to bend the rule to suit our build. Kinda unfair to those that play by the rule.
The whole point of testing is finding problems and suggesting improvements. (I totally agree with @kythelion#3210 on that) Many people actually asked for binding arrow to be available to Hunter (me among them). That requires a swap. I suggested a swap that is legit. Definitely, for this swap to come alive, some people should confirm that they want it to happen. As well as @noworries#8859 should confirm the possibility of this swap.
Reminder to all the Combat trying to hi-jack the Hunter path and boot the Archery to the Warden path by trying to swap Binding Arrow for the archery-crucial Rain of Arrows: Bows are the primary weapons for Rangers.
In able for archery to access Rain of Arrows, we have to run Warden and lose access the Feats. or the Secondary weapon users go to Warden to access you precious Binding Arrow as is.
The trouble with Calculator/ACT/Spreadsheet builds is they don't account for:
- Intangibles: positioning, set-up, combos, combat flow, location etc. - the fact that 80% of NW is solo campaign - the number of mobs per cluster - the fact these mobs actually move - the fact these mobs have powers.
How are Primary weapon Bow users able to handle all these without Rain of Arrow ( an archery staple).
Rain of Arrow/Cordon of Arrow/Marauder's Escape/Aimed Shot/Split Shot are crucial SOLO loadout. How the heck do you run Archery on live without these powers?
If Combat wants Binding Arrow, why not just roll Warden, than try to break the core powers? Essentially, you Combat people don't want to roll Warden, so you want the Archers to roll Warden by angling for this swap.
Archers (aka Primary weapon holder) lose access to feats if we go Warden.
Lastly, they haven't even made changes to magnitudes and powers yet.
I'm sure you're all not Archers. Hint: we don't use Binding Arrows at all. So, trying to upset and uppend the current heirarchy not to Archery benefit is wrong. Secondary weapon users go to Warden path if you want your Binding Arrow.
Sorry, but your assumptions overall seem very wrong to me. As well as the whole message of yours seems very close to insult, as you basically blame people, that they have lack of knowledge and that they are trying to hijack something. It looks more like a flame than constructive criticism. I suggest to stay chill and keep that simple aka 'I'm planning to play archer when Mod16 pops up, and I'm against that swap, as I consider RoA crucial for my build.' :-)
Here's some comment on ACT/Spreadsheets/Calculator:
ACT/Spreadsheets/Calculator are the instruments. Proper use of those instruments allows to: A. Check on practice that your theory is working B. Make a theory by analyzing data Therefore making it simpler to make some decisions when it comes to making the builds or finding the spots where your build is underperforming.
For example: If you see in the spreadsheet that first power has twice as less mps than the second power. and you also know that both of those powers are AoE and you know that you can apply the same buffs to both powers then there's not a brainer to understand, that the first power will be twice as less effective then the other power. E.g. if you take Hunter, take constricting arrow and take RoA, for example, then you can check that constricting arrow will beat RoA on any encounter where you cannot absolutely guarantee that there are over ten mobs that will stay in the area of RoA damage during the whole time this encounter is active. In case you consider that mobs are moving, then the number of mobs to reach that point when RoA becomes even to constricting increases to such a value when you need old CN and CW with (uncapped) Singularity to come back on time machine from mod3 (as i recall, they later nerfed it to 8 targets) :-)
btw, i didn't check target cap on RoA in mod 16. Does anybody know consistent method to test that value?
But frankly, I don't like suggestion that ask for swap. Its a rule set by the developer and we are asking to bend the rule to suit our build. Kinda unfair to those that play by the rule.
The whole point of testing is finding problems and suggesting improvements. (I totally agree with @kythelion#3210 on that) Many people actually asked for binding arrow to be available to Hunter (me among them). That requires a swap. I suggested a swap that is legit. Definitely, for this swap to come alive, some people should confirm that they want it to happen. As well as @noworries#8859 should confirm the possibility of this swap.
Well, Its only improvement to peoples who don't use RoA as a Hunter but it isn't for those that use RoA. Although I do agree its kinda weird to find a root based encounter like binding arrow in the Warden path. However to swap it any encounter are going to mess with someone's build to better suit someone else build. In my opinion, that's unfair. I suggest Binding arrow to be removed from the game and replace with something else.
Anyway, I don't think a suggestion on class balance should be decided through majority vote by the player for it come live. It doesn't make the game any more balance especially when most player motivation are driven by their own class and personal build preference.
according to the spreadsheet, binding arrow has a heavy attack for bow and a good power for melee, but rain of swords/arrows is less than average on both (i've used them in preview and was seriously disapointed with the chunky, slow and low damage power). Moving the binding arrow to both warden and hunter side and the rain of S/A to warden seems more than logical to me. Hunter side should be using roots to hold their foes in place while picking them off with powerful shots at range, while warden is primarily designed for close combat, using storm powers and fast recharge (TYVM DEVs), doing hit and run tactics. When i play combat on live, i have to hit hard and move fast so i don't get killed. That means encounters that are fast acting and powerful, at wills that don't slow me down or hold me in place and dailies that are more for utility than damage (interuptive shot and forest ghost). This methodology has allowed my 16k HR to match and sometimes beat 18k GWFs and usually top the DPS in FBI and MSP. Those that play archer prefer never to get close to the mobs, providing sniping and supporting roles. I think this is what the developers have planned for hunter and warden paragons.
Well, Its only improvement to peoples who don't use RoA as a Hunter but it isn't for those that use RoA. Although I do agree its kinda weird to find a root based encounter like binding arrow in the Warden path. However to swap it any encounter are going to mess with someone's build to better suit someone else build. In my opinion, that's unfair. I suggest Binding arrow to be removed from the game and replace with something else.
Anyway, I don't think a suggestion on class balance should be decided through majority vote by the player for it come live. It doesn't make the game any more balance especially when most player motivation are driven by their own class and personal build preference.
Sorry, but it seems to me that phrase 'mess with someone's build' is not applicable to PTR testing when it's officially confirmed that there are multiple tickets on HR being created, which are based on suggestions stated in this thread.
I agree that suggestion on class balance definitely not to be decided by voting on forum :-). But it can be decided by the people who read this discussion in this thread, for example.
Your suggestion is to change nothing. It's acceptable. But I cannot accept your reasoning about someone might have a build on PTR that is using RoA. That way we can stick to something like: 'WOW, the hell??? I have build on live!!! it uses PG and GW!!! I melt stuffs with that!!! Do not you dare to change that PG, because I have a build!!!'
Let's clear up a communication problem we're having here kangkeok. The idea to move a power to a different paragon path because of someone's particular current build is bad. We are in agreement here. The idea to refuse to move a power to a different paragon path because of someone's particular current build is equally bad because it's essentially the same thing. These are not valid reasons, are unfair as you put it. The idea to move Binding Arrow into the Hunter path or into a common power slot so that Hunter has access to it based on the reasoning that as per the feats this paragon is intended to make use of the root mechanic is not bad. It is not based on anyone's current build or power preference. It is based solely on the fact that the power fits into the schema of the Hunter design and therefore makes sense for Hunter to be able to use it. Discussion and deciding which power to suggest swapping it with is definitely necessary to find which power would most suitably belong in Warden instead. He suggested Rain. Only one other person has put forth an alternative power suggestion.
Also, this is a complete rework of every class. EVERY current rotation for EVERY current build for EVERY class is being rendered moot. Even more than usual, the idea of not doing something because it might make someone unhappy is a non factor. Ideas need to raised, discussed, and reasoned based on logic and how well it fits into the NEW schemas for the class. Not on which powers someone likes (or doesn't). Not on which powers are currently used in which builds. And not by refusing to consider any change at all to what has been done because change is the entire point of M16.
If you do not like the idea of moving Binding Arrow into a place where Hunter can access it for a particular reason other than "I don't like it", "I want to play Hunter and like using Rain", or "We shouldn't be discussing changes" I would be happy to evaluate a counter argument for why you think Binding Arrow belongs in Warden.
Let's clear up a communication problem we're having here kangkeok. The idea to move a power to a different paragon path because of someone's particular current build is bad. We are in agreement here. The idea to refuse to move a power to a different paragon path because of someone's particular current build is equally bad because it's essentially the same thing. These are not valid reasons, are unfair as you put it.
Not really. Its pretty much about a person that try to change the rule to suit his need VS a person who play by the rule. If RoA doesn't appeal to u, it doesn't mean it has to be taken away from those that prefer them. Just as valid as someone feels RoA is useless to a hunter doesn't mean its true to other player that plays hunter.
Because different people has different opinion on a power, I'm against power swapping. Its just gonna creates whole lots of drama on deciding which power to swap beside causing unfairness to any party. If u read my post earlier I do think binding shot, a root base encounter should not be in warden path. Therefore I m suggesting Binding arrow to be removed from the game and replaced with a new encounter. If I am the developer, I'll just remove the root mechanic from the binding shot and give it a new name to avoid all the controversy in this feedback thread. Maybe replace the root mechanic with electric damage?
Your suggestion is to change nothing. It's acceptable. But I cannot accept your reasoning about someone might have a build on PTR that is using RoA. That way we can stick to something like: 'WOW, the hell??? I have build on live!!! it uses PG and GW!!! I melt stuffs with that!!! Do not you dare to change that PG, because I have a build!!!'
Well its just as valid as your assumption that RoA is useless and RoS more useful therefore its more suitable for warden. RoA might be useless in your opinion, its doesn't mean it is for others.
6. Now considering AoE/multiple target. RoA is actually not good (just because there's absolutely no guarantee that 4 mobs will stand in it). But RoS is good, and Combat Warden can benefit from it on multi target. Hunter has better options for AoE/multiple: e.g. he has Rapid Volley which suits ranged AoE Hunter as well as hybrid AoE Hunter (btw, for some weird reason not much people try Rapid Volley - try it, it's good).
I cant accept that u pick RoA based on this reason either.
Regardless, it doesn't matter. Power swapping is always a bad idea. Like I said in the post before this one, its best to remove root mechanic from Binding shot and give it a new name to avoid all the unnecessary drama that's going to flood this thread.
@userutf8 thanks for posting your power analysis spreadsheet, much more detailed than what I had slapped together.
I agree Hindering Arrow should be available to the Hunter path. It makes sense both thematically and mechanically. I would suggest that it could even be made a Hunter exclusive encounter, swapping with Rapid Volley/Windwalk Strike. If this were done, Crushing Roots should become a Hunter exclusive passive, swapping with either Pathfinder's Action or Cruel Recovery. Doing this would cleanly split the two aspects of hybrid play between the paragons, with Warden getting the damage bonuses and cooldowns associated with stance swapping while Hunter gets Roots and their associated benefits. This would more clearly highlight the differences between the paragons, while still allowing each paragon to have both a hybrid and stance-specific playstyle.
Just so others reading the spreadsheet from the USA, UK, or other parts of the world that use the decimal point instead of a comma don't get confused, the commas in that spreadsheet are decimal separators. The International System of Units recognizes both the point and the comma. In the USA, we use the comma as a thousands separator. All the encounter magnitudes per second are pretty lame and make rapid shot or electric shot your better magnitude per second option, depending on whether you're going single target or multi-target. I worry the Developers might be reading those calculations as commas and thinking everything is fine, or worse, thinking they need to nerf them. Surely they have their own charts, graphs, and formulas to make such decisions instead of relying on the community.
To be fair, multi-charge skills and long-duration skills don't quite translate as simply as other skills when it comes to magnitude per second. Rapid Volley is probably the most powerful encounter power Hunters have.
My two cents in on the power reassignment debate - the skills should stay where they are to avoid over-specializing and creating cookie-cutter BiS clone builds. Let's have some diversity in play style and builds, please! It's boring seeing the same old thing every time and having only "one way" to do things. I like being able to change skills around if I get bored without feeling like I've shot myself in the foot. I love playing Hunter and having five charges of Rapid Volley on standby to deal with mass agro (or to pull agro intentionally if I need to). I rarely use Rain of Arrows here, but it's my defensive barrier with my archer on Live. Here, I use Ambush (when it works) to drop agro onto my pet. Of course, that's just one set of skills and one way to play.
Now, if only I could be as heroic and powerful as my pet, I'd be happy. I feel more like the companion than the hero.
A few things for those against swapping binding arrow and rain of arrow.
1. Rangers will need oak skin both in hunter and warden, and specially so at low levels.
2. Mod 16 has nothing to do with mod 15. Your current live build has no consequence and will be changed anyway, with or without binding arrow / RoA.
3. Both RoA and RoS are terrible powers. If you are currently using them, whether in mod 15 or 16, i'm afraid you've simply made a bad choice. While I'd like to see them improved, giving both paragons and paragon-less rangers access to oak skin is a lot more important.
A few things for those against swapping binding arrow and rain of arrow.
1. Rangers will need oak skin both in hunter and warden, and specially so at low levels.
There are a lot means of healing for a low level than to rely on oakskin. Also, there are other class out there that does not have self heal at low level. Its not really a must have thing as well. If that's is really your reason, u might as well suggest a swap between rapid shot and hunter teamwork too.
3. Both RoA and RoS are terrible powers. If you are currently using them, whether in mod 15 or 16, i'm afraid you've simply made a bad choice. While I'd like to see them improved, giving both paragons and paragon-less rangers access to oak skin is a lot more important.
Frankly that's not a valid reason for swapping RoA with binding. If u feel RoA are underpowered, u could have suggested developer to have them buff up to a viable level. Swapping RoA with Binding doesn't make RoA any better? In my opinion, RoA is in a good spot. Any build could benefit from it be it melee or range, root or no root.
All in all, power swapping shouldn't even be dictated by the player. Its just unfair to other player with a different opinion, especially those that are not in forum to oppose. I'm ok with player can giving feedback on which power are broken or which power are underpowered but not which power to go where or which feat to go where. It just cross the line. Anyone with that power could dictate which build are going to be viable and which wont be in mod16 and it affect all the player. If u feel binding is in a wrong paragon because of it root mechanic, there are better alternatives that's more fair other than swapping.
We're not dictating, we're suggesting improvement. That's what this thread is for. Since the only thing you have to say is that we should not do so because you don't like it, I will no longer respond to you.
I don't really think rapid volley would be a good choice. It's the only new power Hunter got. It could use a mag buff. I really don't see any of the Hunter specific powers a good swap though. The only one I could see as a possible fit in Warden would be longstrider, but that would deprive Hunter of a decent melee encounter which it sorely needs as many of the melee powers it has are buffs. I think it should be a lower level, common power. But Rain or Marauder would be the only two to consider there. Marauder is also a utility power befitting low level and has really high mag. It wouldn't be a good swap. Which leaves us back at Rain.
Since yesterday's update I am unable to swap out powers beyond a certain point on my HR/Archer build. I cannot swap out feats at all, and when I try to retrain the Boon tree it refuses to "Commit" the changes.
Since yesterday's update I am unable to swap out powers beyond a certain point on my HR/Archer build. I cannot swap out feats at all, and when I try to retrain the Boon tree it refuses to "Commit" the changes.
I just performed two Respecs on my Hunter. I was able to swap through all of the powers, assign feats, and choose boons. Have you done anything since yesterday that might have contributed to this strange bug?
We're not dictating, we're suggesting improvement. That's what this thread is for. Since the only thing you have to say is that we should not do so because you don't like it, I will no longer respond to you.
I don't really think rapid volley would be a good choice. It's the only new power Hunter got. It could use a mag buff. I really don't see any of the Hunter specific powers a good swap though. The only one I could see as a possible fit in Warden would be longstrider, but that would deprive Hunter of a decent melee encounter which it sorely needs as many of the melee powers it has are buffs. I think it should be a lower level, common power. But Rain or Marauder would be the only two to consider there. Marauder is also a utility power befitting low level and has really high mag. It wouldn't be a good swap. Which leaves us back at Rain.
Just to be clear, It isn't an improvement. Its just an opinion. That suggestion only work in favor of a group of player that don't use RoA while unfavorable to the other group of player that do. Like I said before, it isn't a fair suggestion. That's why I'm against any type of power swapping suggestion. It just gonna be unfair to a certain group.
I see why this thread are for bugs and feedback and not suggestion. If it was a feedback saying "root based encounter, Binding Arrow is in a non root based paragon, Warden and it feels out of place. ", I would have agreed. Further suggesting on which encounter to swap are just an opinion. It can't be said as an improvement as it bring problem to a certain group of people.
Also like @artifleur said earlier and I do feel it too, Rain of Arrow and Rain of Sword felt underpowered. Hope developer could look into it.
So, I have an issue with Warden Feats Swiftness of the Fox and Storm's Recovery. I see that Swiftness is intended to be the hybrid choice, but since SR will still operate just fine while swapping stances, why would I choose a 1 second cooldown reduction when I can have a 3 second cooldown reduction? Does anyone know if there are plans to bring these two feats in line with each other? Just to be clear, I like that the feats are intended to be opposing playstyle choices for achieving cooldown, just wish they offered closer to same payout.
I love how there's tons of pontificating about the sanctity of archer and trapper builds, but the loudest people are basically ignoring the scrapper playstyle in its entirety- the ranger who only carries a bow for pulling objects off of really high shelves. Dual blades combat ranger is JUST as iconic as the archer and the martial druid.
Power swapping is always a bad idea. Its just gonna creates whole lots of drama on deciding which power to swap beside causing unfairness to any party.
1. Your opinion. I consider it wrong. 2. Who is going to start the drama? I prefer numbers to drama. What about you?
Therefore I m suggesting Binding arrow to be removed from the game and replaced with a new encounter. If I am the developer, I'll just remove the root mechanic from the binding shot and give it a new name to avoid all the controversy in this feedback thread. Maybe replace the root mechanic with electric damage?
Also like @artifleur said earlier and I do feel it too, Rain of Arrow and Rain of Sword felt underpowered. Hope developer could look into it.
That's anothet hidden suggestion to buff power, although you do not provide any argumentation.
I feel that you enjoy debating more than analyzing, I suggest you to provide numbers that prove your point. If you bring up actual numerical proof that RoA is more useful on Hunter than Binding, than we can continue our arguement.
I wanted to call out a bug that will be showing up with the next preview update, already being fixed for the following update.
Deft Strikes, Swiftness of the Fox, and Longshot won't function properly. This was caused by fixes to stop the 0 damage ticks when switching stances. Apologies for the inconvenience, these will all be working again on a future update to preview.
I wanted to call out a bug that will be showing up with the next preview update, already being fixed for the following update.
Deft Strikes, Swiftness of the Fox, and Longshot won't function properly. This was caused by fixes to stop the 0 damage ticks when switching stances. Apologies for the inconvenience, these will all be working again on a future update to preview.
That's inconvenient, but THANK YOU for telling us.
I wanted to call out a bug that will be showing up with the next preview update, already being fixed for the following update.
Deft Strikes, Swiftness of the Fox, and Longshot won't function properly. This was caused by fixes to stop the 0 damage ticks when switching stances. Apologies for the inconvenience, these will all be working again on a future update to preview.
I noticed the patch notes were a bit light in hunter fixes, was the offhand damage fixed pushed in this patch as well?
> @artifleur said: > A few things for those against swapping binding arrow and rain of arrow. > > 1. Rangers will need oak skin both in hunter and warden, and specially so at low levels. > > 2. Mod 16 has nothing to do with mod 15. Your current live build has no consequence and will be changed anyway, with or without binding arrow / RoA. > > 3. Both RoA and RoS are terrible powers. If you are currently using them, whether in mod 15 or 16, i'm afraid you've simply made a bad choice. While I'd like to see them improved, giving both paragons and paragon-less rangers access to oak skin is a lot more important.
Mod 15 RoA is one of the damage sources in archery. RoS is useless tho. But then again this is off topic.
IMO swapping powers "paragon" based powers is not good. Im not oppposed to having both paths have the said powers.
> @kythelion#3210 said: > So, I have an issue with Warden Feats Swiftness of the Fox and Storm's Recovery. I see that Swiftness is intended to be the hybrid choice, but since SR will still operate just fine while swapping stances, why would I choose a 1 second cooldown reduction when I can have a 3 second cooldown reduction? Does anyone know if there are plans to bring these two feats in line with each other? Just to be clear, I like that the feats are intended to be opposing playstyle choices for achieving cooldown, just wish they offered closer to same payout.
I would like to highlight this point too. "trap feats". Cordon/pg too weak at the moment to consider slotting. Im not sure anyone is using swiftness over storms recovery, but we cant test it this week cause it needs fixing.
> So, I have an issue with Warden Feats Swiftness of the Fox and Storm's Recovery. I see that Swiftness is intended to be the hybrid choice, but since SR will still operate just fine while swapping stances, why would I choose a 1 second cooldown reduction when I can have a 3 second cooldown reduction? Does anyone know if there are plans to bring these two feats in line with each other? Just to be clear, I like that the feats are intended to be opposing playstyle choices for achieving cooldown, just wish they offered closer to same payout.
I would like to highlight this point too. "trap feats". Cordon/pg too weak at the moment to consider slotting. Im not sure anyone is using swiftness over storms recovery, but we cant test it this week cause it needs fixing.
My point exactly. I DID test them against each other earlier this week because I expected SR wouldn't work swapping stances, but it did. So it was a 2 second CD gain per power per swap over Swiftness. Swiftness will have to be buffed to also be 3 seconds so that either choice is the same, or SR needs to be stance locked somehow. If the latter is achievable it's probably more fair since SR is intended to help with pure builds who aren't always utilizing all 6 powers.
Comments
On the point about making single target and AOE separate paths, it makes sense to me, most bosses have a campfire for you to switch loadouts (iirc switching from dps to dps is still allowed for public queues)
How many of you run Archer on live? How many of you run Archery with Binding Arrow on live? My guess. Zero.
Warden feats are primarily designed for Trappers. Hunter feats primarily designed for Archers. Obvious! ( Or are you pretending to not to have read the in-game texts at the very least? Because the in-game description make it obvious. The feats itself if you read them - I'm sure you did - make it doubly obvious).
Now if you want to play Hunter as trapper, expect to be gimped.
Now instead of playing Trapper Hunter gimped (as is). You suggest replacing Binding Arrow in the core powers which will gimp Archery in path designed primarily for Archers, because as I've said, Archers need Rain of Arrows as core powers for "80% solo game" with mobs in groups of multiples.
And which part again of my post is "rude"?
So you're a Trapper who wants to double dip on Archery Feats/Powers AND still access Binding Arrow.
On the flipside Archers will player double gimped as Warden with no Archery feats just to access Rain of Arrow.
That's called hi-jacking b/c Hunters are obviously catered for Archery first. You want your cake and eat it too. And as a result, Archery gets the empty saucer because we have to go Warden Tree just to do our solo with Rain of Arrows.
My suggestion?
Play Trapper as Warden ungimped.
Play Archery as Hunter ungimped.
Play Trapper as Hunter gimped.
Play Archery as Warden gimped.
Instead of trying to unsettle the designed (nee "overbalanced") heirarchy trying to play Trapper as Hunter ungimped and forcing Archery play Warden double gimped.
That or wait for actual changes in Ranger powers and magnitude first. You all make a determination that Binding Arrow is better than the proven and Archery-reliable (live and always) Rain of Arrrows based on preliminary numbers and magnitudes.
Yet on live, how many of you player Archery + Binding Arrow again? Zero right?
Warden:
First Feat-25% more damage for staying in one stance for >10 seconds
Second Feat-reduces cooldowns of encounters of the same stance as the triggered power.
Thirds Feat-10% damage boost to lightning stuff which happens to be mostly ranged powers.
Hunter:
Third Feat-applies a 5% more damage to one target boost when you use a ranged power
Fourth Feat-Ranged encounter powers do 50% more damage with a 50% reduction to melee.
Imo, both are just as much lending to an archery play style, just with different focus on aoe vs single target when you get into the path specific powers. The Longshot feat in Hunter might make an obvious choice, until you factor in cooldowns or the type of content or fight you are in.
If you want the estimation of total magnitude per period of time (say 60 seconds),
then you can check that this value is equal to Magnitude * 60 / (cast time + cooldown time),
and as Mps = Magnitude / (cast time + cooldown time), then the value you are asking me to add is basically Mps * 60.
60 is the constant value.
If you want to make a decision which power to pick based on comparison of Magnitude per some period of time, then straight comparison of Mps will return same result to you. Not sure what to answer. :-)
Please, expand: in your opinion, what is the reasoning of using this particular set of powers? 1. They both can be single and multiple-target.
2. That swap could be possible either, but here's the problem: Warden already got new daily and at-will.
I think it's unlikely to happen that devs will accept this swap, just because in case of such a swap warden gets 3 new powers, whereas hunter gets no new powers at all. The whole point of testing is finding problems and suggesting improvements. (I totally agree with @kythelion#3210 on that)
Many people actually asked for binding arrow to be available to Hunter (me among them).
That requires a swap.
I suggested a swap that is legit.
Definitely, for this swap to come alive, some people should confirm that they want it to happen.
As well as @noworries#8859 should confirm the possibility of this swap. Sorry, but I might have missed that. That's actually nice! - Let's hope @noworries#8859 gives us some feedback on this swap possibility. Sorry, but your assumptions overall seem very wrong to me.
As well as the whole message of yours seems very close to insult, as you basically blame people, that they have lack of knowledge and that they are trying to hijack something.
It looks more like a flame than constructive criticism.
I suggest to stay chill and keep that simple aka 'I'm planning to play archer when Mod16 pops up, and I'm against that swap, as I consider RoA crucial for my build.' :-)
Here's some comment on ACT/Spreadsheets/Calculator:
ACT/Spreadsheets/Calculator are the instruments.
Proper use of those instruments allows to:
A. Check on practice that your theory is working
B. Make a theory by analyzing data
Therefore making it simpler to make some decisions when it comes to making the builds or finding the spots where your build is underperforming.
For example:
If you see in the spreadsheet that first power has twice as less mps than the second power.
and you also know that both of those powers are AoE
and you know that you can apply the same buffs to both powers
then there's not a brainer to understand, that the first power will be twice as less effective then the other power.
E.g. if you take Hunter, take constricting arrow and take RoA, for example, then you can check that constricting arrow will beat RoA on any encounter where you cannot absolutely guarantee that there are over ten mobs that will stay in the area of RoA damage during the whole time this encounter is active.
In case you consider that mobs are moving, then the number of mobs to reach that point when RoA becomes even to constricting increases to such a value when you need old CN and CW with (uncapped) Singularity to come back on time machine from mod3 (as i recall, they later nerfed it to 8 targets) :-)
btw, i didn't check target cap on RoA in mod 16. Does anybody know consistent method to test that value?
Anyway, I don't think a suggestion on class balance should be decided through majority vote by the player for it come live. It doesn't make the game any more balance especially when most player motivation are driven by their own class and personal build preference.
When i play combat on live, i have to hit hard and move fast so i don't get killed. That means encounters that are fast acting and powerful, at wills that don't slow me down or hold me in place and dailies that are more for utility than damage (interuptive shot and forest ghost). This methodology has allowed my 16k HR to match and sometimes beat 18k GWFs and usually top the DPS in FBI and MSP. Those that play archer prefer never to get close to the mobs, providing sniping and supporting roles. I think this is what the developers have planned for hunter and warden paragons.
I agree that suggestion on class balance definitely not to be decided by voting on forum :-).
But it can be decided by the people who read this discussion in this thread, for example.
Your suggestion is to change nothing. It's acceptable.
But I cannot accept your reasoning about someone might have a build on PTR that is using RoA. That way we can stick to something like: 'WOW, the hell??? I have build on live!!! it uses PG and GW!!! I melt stuffs with that!!! Do not you dare to change that PG, because I have a build!!!'
Also, this is a complete rework of every class. EVERY current rotation for EVERY current build for EVERY class is being rendered moot. Even more than usual, the idea of not doing something because it might make someone unhappy is a non factor. Ideas need to raised, discussed, and reasoned based on logic and how well it fits into the NEW schemas for the class. Not on which powers someone likes (or doesn't). Not on which powers are currently used in which builds. And not by refusing to consider any change at all to what has been done because change is the entire point of M16.
If you do not like the idea of moving Binding Arrow into a place where Hunter can access it for a particular reason other than "I don't like it", "I want to play Hunter and like using Rain", or "We shouldn't be discussing changes" I would be happy to evaluate a counter argument for why you think Binding Arrow belongs in Warden.
Because different people has different opinion on a power, I'm against power swapping. Its just gonna creates whole lots of drama on deciding which power to swap beside causing unfairness to any party. If u read my post earlier I do think binding shot, a root base encounter should not be in warden path. Therefore I m suggesting Binding arrow to be removed from the game and replaced with a new encounter. If I am the developer, I'll just remove the root mechanic from the binding shot and give it a new name to avoid all the controversy in this feedback thread. Maybe replace the root mechanic with electric damage?
I cant accept that u pick RoA based on this reason either.
Regardless, it doesn't matter. Power swapping is always a bad idea. Like I said in the post before this one, its best to remove root mechanic from Binding shot and give it a new name to avoid all the unnecessary drama that's going to flood this thread.
I agree Hindering Arrow should be available to the Hunter path. It makes sense both thematically and mechanically. I would suggest that it could even be made a Hunter exclusive encounter, swapping with Rapid Volley/Windwalk Strike. If this were done, Crushing Roots should become a Hunter exclusive passive, swapping with either Pathfinder's Action or Cruel Recovery. Doing this would cleanly split the two aspects of hybrid play between the paragons, with Warden getting the damage bonuses and cooldowns associated with stance swapping while Hunter gets Roots and their associated benefits. This would more clearly highlight the differences between the paragons, while still allowing each paragon to have both a hybrid and stance-specific playstyle.
To be fair, multi-charge skills and long-duration skills don't quite translate as simply as other skills when it comes to magnitude per second. Rapid Volley is probably the most powerful encounter power Hunters have.
My two cents in on the power reassignment debate - the skills should stay where they are to avoid over-specializing and creating cookie-cutter BiS clone builds. Let's have some diversity in play style and builds, please! It's boring seeing the same old thing every time and having only "one way" to do things. I like being able to change skills around if I get bored without feeling like I've shot myself in the foot. I love playing Hunter and having five charges of Rapid Volley on standby to deal with mass agro (or to pull agro intentionally if I need to). I rarely use Rain of Arrows here, but it's my defensive barrier with my archer on Live. Here, I use Ambush (when it works) to drop agro onto my pet. Of course, that's just one set of skills and one way to play.
Now, if only I could be as heroic and powerful as my pet, I'd be happy. I feel more like the companion than the hero.
1. Rangers will need oak skin both in hunter and warden, and specially so at low levels.
2. Mod 16 has nothing to do with mod 15. Your current live build has no consequence and will be changed anyway, with or without binding arrow / RoA.
3. Both RoA and RoS are terrible powers. If you are currently using them, whether in mod 15 or 16, i'm afraid you've simply made a bad choice. While I'd like to see them improved, giving both paragons and paragon-less rangers access to oak skin is a lot more important.
Frankly that's not a valid reason for swapping RoA with binding. If u feel RoA are underpowered, u could have suggested developer to have them buff up to a viable level. Swapping RoA with Binding doesn't make RoA any better? In my opinion, RoA is in a good spot. Any build could benefit from it be it melee or range, root or no root.
All in all, power swapping shouldn't even be dictated by the player. Its just unfair to other player with a different opinion, especially those that are not in forum to oppose. I'm ok with player can giving feedback on which power are broken or which power are underpowered but not which power to go where or which feat to go where. It just cross the line. Anyone with that power could dictate which build are going to be viable and which wont be in mod16 and it affect all the player. If u feel binding is in a wrong paragon because of it root mechanic, there are better alternatives that's more fair other than swapping.
I don't really think rapid volley would be a good choice. It's the only new power Hunter got. It could use a mag buff. I really don't see any of the Hunter specific powers a good swap though. The only one I could see as a possible fit in Warden would be longstrider, but that would deprive Hunter of a decent melee encounter which it sorely needs as many of the melee powers it has are buffs. I think it should be a lower level, common power. But Rain or Marauder would be the only two to consider there. Marauder is also a utility power befitting low level and has really high mag. It wouldn't be a good swap. Which leaves us back at Rain.
I see why this thread are for bugs and feedback and not suggestion. If it was a feedback saying "root based encounter, Binding Arrow is in a non root based paragon, Warden and it feels out of place. ", I would have agreed. Further suggesting on which encounter to swap are just an opinion. It can't be said as an improvement as it bring problem to a certain group of people.
Also like @artifleur said earlier and I do feel it too, Rain of Arrow and Rain of Sword felt underpowered. Hope developer could look into it.
2. Who is going to start the drama? I prefer numbers to drama. What about you? That's the suggestion. That's anothet hidden suggestion to buff power, although you do not provide any argumentation.
I feel that you enjoy debating more than analyzing, I suggest you to provide numbers that prove your point.
If you bring up actual numerical proof that RoA is more useful on Hunter than Binding, than we can continue our arguement.
Until then, I'm done arguing with you.
Regards
Deft Strikes, Swiftness of the Fox, and Longshot won't function properly. This was caused by fixes to stop the 0 damage ticks when switching stances. Apologies for the inconvenience, these will all be working again on a future update to preview.
> A few things for those against swapping binding arrow and rain of arrow.
>
> 1. Rangers will need oak skin both in hunter and warden, and specially so at low levels.
>
> 2. Mod 16 has nothing to do with mod 15. Your current live build has no consequence and will be changed anyway, with or without binding arrow / RoA.
>
> 3. Both RoA and RoS are terrible powers. If you are currently using them, whether in mod 15 or 16, i'm afraid you've simply made a bad choice. While I'd like to see them improved, giving both paragons and paragon-less rangers access to oak skin is a lot more important.
Mod 15 RoA is one of the damage sources in archery. RoS is useless tho. But then again this is off topic.
IMO swapping powers "paragon" based powers is not good. Im not oppposed to having both paths have the said powers.
> So, I have an issue with Warden Feats Swiftness of the Fox and Storm's Recovery. I see that Swiftness is intended to be the hybrid choice, but since SR will still operate just fine while swapping stances, why would I choose a 1 second cooldown reduction when I can have a 3 second cooldown reduction? Does anyone know if there are plans to bring these two feats in line with each other? Just to be clear, I like that the feats are intended to be opposing playstyle choices for achieving cooldown, just wish they offered closer to same payout.
I would like to highlight this point too. "trap feats". Cordon/pg too weak at the moment to consider slotting. Im not sure anyone is using swiftness over storms recovery, but we cant test it this week cause it needs fixing.