I mentioned this on the fighter thread, but having given it a bit more thought I'm wondering...
What do Wizards, Rogues and Rangers bring to a Dungeon Group, that Warlocks, Barbarians, Fighters and Clerics don't?
Because I can tell you what those second 4 bring that the first 3 don't... the flexibility to change into a support role at any Camp Fire along the dungeon.
Balance in role v role performance seems to be one of the main thrusts of the overhaul. What you might be forgetting is that (particularly end-game) dungeon groups look to extract every single perceived benefit they can when tackling the toughest content.
I'm sitting here thinking, "If a Barbarian's DPS build is as DPS valid as a Rogue, why not take a Barbarian for the extra Tanking if we need it?" Same with say... Ranger vs Cleric, or Wizard vs Fighter...
Why take something that has the same capacity in one role as its alternatives, but lacks the versatility of a second entire role within the party?
(And a third load out answers the "Single Target vs AoE" argument.)
Why would I not take... Paladin + 2 from Barbarian/Fighter + 2 from Cleric/Warlock (Or just one of each). That gives 3 Healers, 3 Tanks, 4 DPS that can be organised into any combination of 5 to suit the situation in a given dungeon?
This isn't a moan, or a complaint, by the way. I'm genuinely interested in knowing how you've gone about making sure pure DPS classes will be just as eagerly required in end game content as DPS/Support hybrids.
I hope you don't get stuck in the long grass of the statistical tweaks and bugs to not get the chance to keep ALL classes "in the loop" as it were as. For me, getting rid of the 2/2/1 "meta" group from end game was just as important as anything else in the overhaul.
Hello! Thanks for the feedback, I can assure you we are dedicated to ensuring that everyone playing as a DPS will have as equal a consideration as possible in group content.
One of the ways we will avoid the problem you are describing is: you will be unable to change paragon paths in queued content. So you won't be taking a barbarian swordmaster over a rogue because the barbarian has the option to switch to a tank if needed.
I am actually not certain if this change is in the preview build that is up right now, I apologize and I can't check at the moment. There also may be some issues and ways to circumvent this at the moment, but over the next few weeks we'll be closing any holes.
To be clear, you'll still be able to change loadouts, but the loadout must match the role you queued as. (Loadouts now clearly have the role marked on them in your loadout list as as well.)
Hopefully this answers your question and your concerns!
To clarify, for example a wizard can switch from Arcanist to Thaumaturge or Thaumaturge to Arcanist during a dungeon, but a Cleric cannot swap between Devout and Arbiter in a dungeon? Also, does this apply to random queues only or also premades?
No, I am comparing Neverwinter to the Neverwinter I played when I started the game. I started this game long before you did. When I started it, the cloak did not exist, the DC sigil did not exist, heck, artifacts did not even exist and the game was a lot more balanced (and it had a much larger playerbase).
Furthermore, I literally just proposed they double the AP gain per second that you currently have, effectively netting you more AP then you currently get from the cloak, the point is, the cloak should not exist because there is no reason to ever unslot 1. Maybe you should actually read what I write instead of complaining.
And with regards to that comment on 20 button games, when I started NW, CDs looked like this: https://youtu.be/Bd3VnfA6i_A Notice, he holds encounters, choosing not to use them, instead of spamming encounters, because timing was essential. If you think buff timing was hard, this was 10000x harder.
Yeah, let me just go back to using the iPhone 5 from 6 years ago. Because I want products to be the way they were when I first started using them. Games evolve which a lot of people seem to not understand, it is not the same game we had at the launch. And so what if you have played longer than me and youre amazingly great at math? My opinion matters just as much as anyone else, you cant just throw my argument out the window just because I started at mod 5 and you at beta. I'm not sitting here complaining just because I'm salty that you do great math, I'm trying to bring forth my way of looking at the stale boring gameplay that we have before us which you completely disregard in your feedback. You want more strategic decisions in using our powers, whats strategic about it now? There is 0 rotations and variations on how to do things. You literally stand and wait for your powers to come back, thats it.
Did you even watch the video? There is nothing strategic about now, just like there is nothing strategic about stacking buffs, but there is something strategic happening in that video and that is what you are missing. If you watch closely, you will see they are explicitly not spamming encounters or using them the very moment they are off cooldown, they are waiting till the correct moment. To get there, you first need to cut down on the relative strength of characters, a lot. People need to go from being gods to being mere mortals, where failing to position will instantly see you die.
Did you also miss the point where I was actually proposing they buff AP gain overall, or is reading comprehension difficult?
You are putting your own reasons for playing up as the only reasons that are valid. No some of us DON'T want the content to be so difficult we can't do it. Not everybody has top flight reactions and a connection that allows us to use them. Strategy doesn't work if the red patches only arrive AFTER the damage has killed you, and this is all too common. Some of us just want a fun game to play not a military operation, we'd play a raiding game if we wanted that. The downpowering and more important slowing down of any decent attacks are a disaster for my fun.
This is a fairly average ping for me, often its worse, especially in ToNG or CoDG. Unless you also live in Africa or back of the nowhere Australia my connection is probably worse than yours, a lot worse. If I can do it, so can you.
No, I am comparing Neverwinter to the Neverwinter I played when I started the game. I started this game long before you did. When I started it, the cloak did not exist, the DC sigil did not exist, heck, artifacts did not even exist and the game was a lot more balanced (and it had a much larger playerbase).
Furthermore, I literally just proposed they double the AP gain per second that you currently have, effectively netting you more AP then you currently get from the cloak, the point is, the cloak should not exist because there is no reason to ever unslot 1. Maybe you should actually read what I write instead of complaining.
And with regards to that comment on 20 button games, when I started NW, CDs looked like this: https://youtu.be/Bd3VnfA6i_A Notice, he holds encounters, choosing not to use them, instead of spamming encounters, because timing was essential. If you think buff timing was hard, this was 10000x harder.
Yeah, let me just go back to using the iPhone 5 from 6 years ago. Because I want products to be the way they were when I first started using them. Games evolve which a lot of people seem to not understand, it is not the same game we had at the launch. And so what if you have played longer than me and youre amazingly great at math? My opinion matters just as much as anyone else, you cant just throw my argument out the window just because I started at mod 5 and you at beta. I'm not sitting here complaining just because I'm salty that you do great math, I'm trying to bring forth my way of looking at the stale boring gameplay that we have before us which you completely disregard in your feedback. You want more strategic decisions in using our powers, whats strategic about it now? There is 0 rotations and variations on how to do things. You literally stand and wait for your powers to come back, thats it.
Did you even watch the video? There is nothing strategic about now, just like there is nothing strategic about stacking buffs, but there is something strategic happening in that video and that is what you are missing. If you watch closely, you will see they are explicitly not spamming encounters or using them the very moment they are off cooldown, they are waiting till the correct moment. To get there, you first need to cut down on the relative strength of characters, a lot. People need to go from being gods to being mere mortals, where failing to position will instantly see you die.
Did you also miss the point where I was actually proposing they buff AP gain overall, or is reading comprehension difficult?
You are putting your own reasons for playing up as the only reasons that are valid. No some of us DON'T want the content to be so difficult we can't do it. Not everybody has top flight reactions and a connection that allows us to use them. Strategy doesn't work if the red patches only arrive AFTER the damage has killed you, and this is all too common. Some of us just want a fun game to play not a military operation, we'd play a raiding game if we wanted that. The downpowering and more important slowing down of any decent attacks are a disaster for my fun.
This is a fairly average ping for me, often its worse, especially in ToNG or CoDG. Unless you also live in Africa or back of the nowhere Australia my connection is probably worse than yours, a lot worse. If I can do it, so can you.
What's your graphics setup like?
It may not be network lag, so much as graphics lag; remember how everyone had all that trouble back in the snow filled regions when they first launched? Or maybe I'm just daffy and remembering things that never happened.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
No, I am comparing Neverwinter to the Neverwinter I played when I started the game. I started this game long before you did. When I started it, the cloak did not exist, the DC sigil did not exist, heck, artifacts did not even exist and the game was a lot more balanced (and it had a much larger playerbase).
Furthermore, I literally just proposed they double the AP gain per second that you currently have, effectively netting you more AP then you currently get from the cloak, the point is, the cloak should not exist because there is no reason to ever unslot 1. Maybe you should actually read what I write instead of complaining.
And with regards to that comment on 20 button games, when I started NW, CDs looked like this: https://youtu.be/Bd3VnfA6i_A Notice, he holds encounters, choosing not to use them, instead of spamming encounters, because timing was essential. If you think buff timing was hard, this was 10000x harder.
Yeah, let me just go back to using the iPhone 5 from 6 years ago. Because I want products to be the way they were when I first started using them. Games evolve which a lot of people seem to not understand, it is not the same game we had at the launch. And so what if you have played longer than me and youre amazingly great at math? My opinion matters just as much as anyone else, you cant just throw my argument out the window just because I started at mod 5 and you at beta. I'm not sitting here complaining just because I'm salty that you do great math, I'm trying to bring forth my way of looking at the stale boring gameplay that we have before us which you completely disregard in your feedback. You want more strategic decisions in using our powers, whats strategic about it now? There is 0 rotations and variations on how to do things. You literally stand and wait for your powers to come back, thats it.
Did you even watch the video? There is nothing strategic about now, just like there is nothing strategic about stacking buffs, but there is something strategic happening in that video and that is what you are missing. If you watch closely, you will see they are explicitly not spamming encounters or using them the very moment they are off cooldown, they are waiting till the correct moment. To get there, you first need to cut down on the relative strength of characters, a lot. People need to go from being gods to being mere mortals, where failing to position will instantly see you die.
Did you also miss the point where I was actually proposing they buff AP gain overall, or is reading comprehension difficult?
You are putting your own reasons for playing up as the only reasons that are valid. No some of us DON'T want the content to be so difficult we can't do it. Not everybody has top flight reactions and a connection that allows us to use them. Strategy doesn't work if the red patches only arrive AFTER the damage has killed you, and this is all too common. Some of us just want a fun game to play not a military operation, we'd play a raiding game if we wanted that. The downpowering and more important slowing down of any decent attacks are a disaster for my fun.
This is a fairly average ping for me, often its worse, especially in ToNG or CoDG. Unless you also live in Africa or back of the nowhere Australia my connection is probably worse than yours, a lot worse. If I can do it, so can you.
What's your graphics setup like?
It may not be network lag, so much as graphics lag; remember how everyone had all that trouble back in the snow filled regions when they first launched? Or maybe I'm just daffy and remembering things that never happened.
No, I am comparing Neverwinter to the Neverwinter I played when I started the game. I started this game long before you did. When I started it, the cloak did not exist, the DC sigil did not exist, heck, artifacts did not even exist and the game was a lot more balanced (and it had a much larger playerbase).
Furthermore, I literally just proposed they double the AP gain per second that you currently have, effectively netting you more AP then you currently get from the cloak, the point is, the cloak should not exist because there is no reason to ever unslot 1. Maybe you should actually read what I write instead of complaining.
And with regards to that comment on 20 button games, when I started NW, CDs looked like this: https://youtu.be/Bd3VnfA6i_A Notice, he holds encounters, choosing not to use them, instead of spamming encounters, because timing was essential. If you think buff timing was hard, this was 10000x harder.
Yeah, let me just go back to using the iPhone 5 from 6 years ago. Because I want products to be the way they were when I first started using them. Games evolve which a lot of people seem to not understand, it is not the same game we had at the launch. And so what if you have played longer than me and youre amazingly great at math? My opinion matters just as much as anyone else, you cant just throw my argument out the window just because I started at mod 5 and you at beta. I'm not sitting here complaining just because I'm salty that you do great math, I'm trying to bring forth my way of looking at the stale boring gameplay that we have before us which you completely disregard in your feedback. You want more strategic decisions in using our powers, whats strategic about it now? There is 0 rotations and variations on how to do things. You literally stand and wait for your powers to come back, thats it.
Did you even watch the video? There is nothing strategic about now, just like there is nothing strategic about stacking buffs, but there is something strategic happening in that video and that is what you are missing. If you watch closely, you will see they are explicitly not spamming encounters or using them the very moment they are off cooldown, they are waiting till the correct moment. To get there, you first need to cut down on the relative strength of characters, a lot. People need to go from being gods to being mere mortals, where failing to position will instantly see you die.
Did you also miss the point where I was actually proposing they buff AP gain overall, or is reading comprehension difficult?
You are putting your own reasons for playing up as the only reasons that are valid. No some of us DON'T want the content to be so difficult we can't do it. Not everybody has top flight reactions and a connection that allows us to use them. Strategy doesn't work if the red patches only arrive AFTER the damage has killed you, and this is all too common. Some of us just want a fun game to play not a military operation, we'd play a raiding game if we wanted that. The downpowering and more important slowing down of any decent attacks are a disaster for my fun.
This is a fairly average ping for me, often its worse, especially in ToNG or CoDG. Unless you also live in Africa or back of the nowhere Australia my connection is probably worse than yours, a lot worse. If I can do it, so can you.
What's your graphics setup like?
It may not be network lag, so much as graphics lag; remember how everyone had all that trouble back in the snow filled regions when they first launched? Or maybe I'm just daffy and remembering things that never happened.
Well, I don't know what your play experience was like-my point was that other people may theoretically have even worse play experience not due to network lag, but due to other graphical programming issues or whatever.
But I say that mostly out of a vague understanding that sort of thing has been a problem before, not with any comprehensive understanding of how various forms of latency work.
A masaive amount of feedback is concerned with the lack of build option and i see NO responce whatsoever to tha subject.
Is there any talk among you to remedy this part or is everything set in stone already(usually is at this time when it hit preview).
I see some feedback on tweeks, like aggro, a bit more damage with at wills but absolutly no answer to ANYTHING concerning this MAJOR outcry about limiting people into certain builds(with a comment about not wanting bad builds ??? isent that part of the game not to hand out premade characters...)
There has been several good suggestions about how to make character creation more varied but you stay silent on the matter can you please at least comment this.
Best
I have responded to this feedback quite a bit in the various class threads I am handling (Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, and Cleric.) I will try to address the topic more directly in this thread in the near future.
You're welcome! Alright, let me try to address your original concern and questions about build diversity.
First of all, yes, we absolutely did simplify build diversity at the base class level. Both by isolating more powers to the paragon paths, and by reducing the number of feat choices.
These changes were made for two reasons: First, to make it possible for more classes to support two different roles. Many of the classes have since launch had feat trees dedicated to roles they could not play, and we finally wanted to make these options viable. Unfortunately, working with only a handful of powers unique to each paragon path, it would have been incredibly difficult to offer more roles for most classes.
Second, we wanted to reduce the number of wrong choices you could make when building your character. When compared with other MMOs where any attempt is made to balance classes, you still have a tremendous amount of freedom when building your character, in the form of boons, companions, mounts, insignias, gems, and equipment. There are opportunities to fail there, but we didn't think it was a great experience to fail before you even leave your character sheet.
I understand some players enjoy an underdog build. I have seen the argument that players who are in favor of less chances for players to fail; and thus an increase in the effectiveness of the average player in random content, are elitist. I would challenge this notion a bit. A system whereby it is possible to have a build that is superior in orders of magnitude when compared with another is a system which fosters and appeals to true elitism much more. Players who are happy that more players will have a competent build ultimately want to play with more people and have a good time.
That said, setting aside the goals for a moment. We did set out to offer more varied gameplay styles, and to make sure that the limited choices you do have are much more impactful than most of the choices in the old system. Some feats have missed the mark there, and we're working on reviewing those, and I hope you'll keep an eye on the changes in the coming weeks and continue to provide feedback.
Very much tnx for this information and explenation.
I think you are on the right track when it comes to not to confuse the players to much in character building and thereby allow total failiure in builds that simply are totally wrong.
However I do think a bit more flexibility when it comes to playstyle is what most players are looking for(at least I am). If you can reach about the same result by using feats that are more tied to utility and less to powers thereby allowing people more freedom to what kind of character you want to have.
A good example on live is Gf tact that can pick feats from either conq path or protect path making it more dps oriented or more tanky but still keep the main to Buffing.
Another good example is Hr that has a good option to become either semi combat/trapper or semi trapper/combat or even semi archer/trapper.
Locking the initial stats + locking feats to powers and separating so much between the 2 path is ofc a good thing when it comes to prevent people from making wrong shoised but if it is possible to make for more diversity and different playstyles quite a lot of players would be very greatful.
Best
it depends on how they are done, there could be some Powers that can be enhanced or give another extra bonus to them in the Feat tree, but that isn't going to make them Mandatory, and i do not belive that is the intention. All i know after the whole talk in the Barbarian thread with our Developer, he left me the impression that out of the 9 encounters (for each path) all of them can be a choice, so different encounters = different styles, with Class mechanics being different, Class features etc. It basically makes out of 1 class to multiply and creates 2 classes, which is great. 2 different playstyles. Now like he told you, you can still customize your build "you still have a tremendous amount of freedom when building your character, in the form of boons, companions, mounts, insignias, gems, and equipment. " All of the narrowing the choices was to remove the fake choices, and now Developers can adjust for class balance, thanks to all of these changes. I'm lookin forward for the following weeks, because i kno' that after 15 modules, something is being done towards class balance, i just hope that Developers would maintain this further, and wish that @asterdahl would stay to improve it more.
:-) Tremendous amount of feedom makes me smile a bit.
I do understand that the actual choice is indeed tremendous if you count using different isignias, take boons that are pretty much useless compared to the few that are good etc etc.
First I want to say that that will have very little impact on your playstyle, however companions, mount powers and gear will ofc allow a certain freedom when it comes to building your character but most of that is imo an illution.
If you take into an account the new stat curve for arpen, defence, crit etc the end zones having 24000 it will certainly limit the options as they negate whatever you have making anything below useless exept hp/power.
In my character creation I feel less locked down on my Hr then on my Gf/pal which feel very limited indeed both in tank and dps set up.
My major concern is that the feats should allow for more utility choices i.q. defence vs hp, power vs crit not locking down feats to become utterly useless when i don´t use a certain encounter. The feat you pick should more or less always give an impact on how you play not lock down some way to be much more effective then others.
That is a bit to much guidience by making others that you want to use so much less effective.
Again i do understand the part of avoiding to make to bad choices but this feel just a tad bit to much pick this IT IS THE BEST.
Please don't level lock Yawning Portal. Please make it a place like the Moonstone mask, and later add third level as Vip! It would be a perfert place to roleplay and I would like to be able to acess it with all my characters no matter the level. Even if you have to level lock undermountain you do not need to level lock the travel option to get to the Yawning Portal. Please consider changing this to allow any level to go there.
So it can be a hub for yet more sexual flirting like MM? Please, no. Just. No.
Of course not and also Moonstone is mild depending on the people. This is a roleplaying game and I really would like to see more roleplay in other locations. They way they designed it makes it harder to see rp outside the moonstone mask, and the problem is many see it as a brothel lorewise and basically pretty much is one. There is many that possibly avoid roleplaying because its confined to one place, and having an non brothel roleplay hub would really be beneficial to the roleplay community.
i'm with hustin on this personally and mild? lol. I guess it depends on what you're used to. I'm fine with keeping it in moonstone because I don' thave to go there. yawning portal we have to go to.. so please no..
With the level cap increasing, could we take this mod as an opportunity to update Guild armors and accessories? The current Company armor is far outdated and wouldn't be recommended for anything more than collections sake. A Level 80 armor set with equal stats to the Spy Guild's armor would be a decent update to the Guild armories.
Warlock: Don't want to let you down but I am hell bound. - Imagine Dragons Cleric: You can be an angel of mercy or give in to hate. - Shinedown Wizard: The more the dark consumes me, I pretend I'm burning bright. - Shinedown Barbarian: Am I beautiful... as I tear you to pieces? - In This Moment
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theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
With the level cap increasing, could we take this mod as an opportunity to update Guild armors and accessories? The current Company armor is far outdated and wouldn't be recommended for anything more than collections sake. A Level 80 armor set with equal stats to the Spy Guild's armor would be a decent update to the Guild armories.
I'm assuming that all the "well actually we need to update X" stuff occurs in mod 17. So the way things go is: Mod 16 launches People get all the mod 16 gear Mod 17 launches People now can use professions/guild stores to get gear that is > mod 16 gear.
[style color="fuchsia"]Text in fuchsia[/style] <font color=red>This text will display in red.</font> Delete me. I can't get color to work!
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @thefiresidecat said: > Please don't level lock Yawning Portal. Please make it a place like the Moonstone mask, and later add third level as Vip! > It would be a perfert place to roleplay and I would like to be able to acess it with all my characters no matter the level. Even if you have to level lock undermountain you do not need to level lock the travel option to get to the Yawning Portal. Please consider changing this to allow any level to go there. > > So it can be a hub for yet more sexual flirting like MM? Please, no. Just. No. > > Of course not and also Moonstone is mild depending on the people. This is a roleplaying game and I really would like to see more roleplay in other locations. They way they designed it makes it harder to see rp outside the moonstone mask, and the problem is many see it as a brothel lorewise and basically pretty much is one. There is many that possibly avoid roleplaying because its confined to one place, and having an non brothel roleplay hub would really be beneficial to the roleplay community. > > > i'm with hustin on this personally and mild? lol. I guess it depends on what you're used to. I'm fine with keeping it in moonstone because I don' thave to go there. yawning portal we have to go to.. so please no..
RP dating in campaign areas? Let me ask Will Smith... "Aww, HAAAAAIL no!"
You wanna get geek-freaky? Take that kinky HAMSTER to Moonstone or a back alley of PE.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
No, I am comparing Neverwinter to the Neverwinter I played when I started the game. I started this game long before you did. When I started it, the cloak did not exist, the DC sigil did not exist, heck, artifacts did not even exist and the game was a lot more balanced (and it had a much larger playerbase).
Furthermore, I literally just proposed they double the AP gain per second that you currently have, effectively netting you more AP then you currently get from the cloak, the point is, the cloak should not exist because there is no reason to ever unslot 1. Maybe you should actually read what I write instead of complaining.
And with regards to that comment on 20 button games, when I started NW, CDs looked like this: https://youtu.be/Bd3VnfA6i_A Notice, he holds encounters, choosing not to use them, instead of spamming encounters, because timing was essential. If you think buff timing was hard, this was 10000x harder.
Yeah, let me just go back to using the iPhone 5 from 6 years ago. Because I want products to be the way they were when I first started using them. Games evolve which a lot of people seem to not understand, it is not the same game we had at the launch. And so what if you have played longer than me and youre amazingly great at math? My opinion matters just as much as anyone else, you cant just throw my argument out the window just because I started at mod 5 and you at beta. I'm not sitting here complaining just because I'm salty that you do great math, I'm trying to bring forth my way of looking at the stale boring gameplay that we have before us which you completely disregard in your feedback. You want more strategic decisions in using our powers, whats strategic about it now? There is 0 rotations and variations on how to do things. You literally stand and wait for your powers to come back, thats it.
Did you even watch the video? There is nothing strategic about now, just like there is nothing strategic about stacking buffs, but there is something strategic happening in that video and that is what you are missing. If you watch closely, you will see they are explicitly not spamming encounters or using them the very moment they are off cooldown, they are waiting till the correct moment. To get there, you first need to cut down on the relative strength of characters, a lot. People need to go from being gods to being mere mortals, where failing to position will instantly see you die.
Did you also miss the point where I was actually proposing they buff AP gain overall, or is reading comprehension difficult?
You are putting your own reasons for playing up as the only reasons that are valid. No some of us DON'T want the content to be so difficult we can't do it. Not everybody has top flight reactions and a connection that allows us to use them. Strategy doesn't work if the red patches only arrive AFTER the damage has killed you, and this is all too common. Some of us just want a fun game to play not a military operation, we'd play a raiding game if we wanted that. The downpowering and more important slowing down of any decent attacks are a disaster for my fun.
This is a fairly average ping for me, often its worse, especially in ToNG or CoDG. Unless you also live in Africa or back of the nowhere Australia my connection is probably worse than yours, a lot worse. If I can do it, so can you.
good lord. that shouldn't be playable. I honestly don't know how you do it. when my ping starts getting bad enough to start rubberbanding I have to hang up the controller for the evening.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,457Arc User
No, I am comparing Neverwinter to the Neverwinter I played when I started the game. I started this game long before you did. When I started it, the cloak did not exist, the DC sigil did not exist, heck, artifacts did not even exist and the game was a lot more balanced (and it had a much larger playerbase).
Furthermore, I literally just proposed they double the AP gain per second that you currently have, effectively netting you more AP then you currently get from the cloak, the point is, the cloak should not exist because there is no reason to ever unslot 1. Maybe you should actually read what I write instead of complaining.
And with regards to that comment on 20 button games, when I started NW, CDs looked like this: https://youtu.be/Bd3VnfA6i_A Notice, he holds encounters, choosing not to use them, instead of spamming encounters, because timing was essential. If you think buff timing was hard, this was 10000x harder.
Yeah, let me just go back to using the iPhone 5 from 6 years ago. Because I want products to be the way they were when I first started using them. Games evolve which a lot of people seem to not understand, it is not the same game we had at the launch. And so what if you have played longer than me and youre amazingly great at math? My opinion matters just as much as anyone else, you cant just throw my argument out the window just because I started at mod 5 and you at beta. I'm not sitting here complaining just because I'm salty that you do great math, I'm trying to bring forth my way of looking at the stale boring gameplay that we have before us which you completely disregard in your feedback. You want more strategic decisions in using our powers, whats strategic about it now? There is 0 rotations and variations on how to do things. You literally stand and wait for your powers to come back, thats it.
Did you even watch the video? There is nothing strategic about now, just like there is nothing strategic about stacking buffs, but there is something strategic happening in that video and that is what you are missing. If you watch closely, you will see they are explicitly not spamming encounters or using them the very moment they are off cooldown, they are waiting till the correct moment. To get there, you first need to cut down on the relative strength of characters, a lot. People need to go from being gods to being mere mortals, where failing to position will instantly see you die.
Did you also miss the point where I was actually proposing they buff AP gain overall, or is reading comprehension difficult?
You are putting your own reasons for playing up as the only reasons that are valid. No some of us DON'T want the content to be so difficult we can't do it. Not everybody has top flight reactions and a connection that allows us to use them. Strategy doesn't work if the red patches only arrive AFTER the damage has killed you, and this is all too common. Some of us just want a fun game to play not a military operation, we'd play a raiding game if we wanted that. The downpowering and more important slowing down of any decent attacks are a disaster for my fun.
This is a fairly average ping for me, often its worse, especially in ToNG or CoDG. Unless you also live in Africa or back of the nowhere Australia my connection is probably worse than yours, a lot worse. If I can do it, so can you.
What's your graphics setup like?
It may not be network lag, so much as graphics lag; remember how everyone had all that trouble back in the snow filled regions when they first launched? Or maybe I'm just daffy and remembering things that never happened.
@asterdahl "A system whereby it is possible to have a build that is superior in orders of magnitude when compared with another is a system which fosters and appeals to true elitism much more."
so asking a handful of best in class folks to determine the proper character build to force on everyone else is actually less elitist because in being prevented from making poor choices, we are all a little closer to best in class??? heck we may even be worth tolerating in a random queue...
"Players who are happy that more players will have a competent build ultimately want to play with more people and have a good time."
so the types of people who deem other people's character build "competent" will have more fun now??? now i understand what you are getting at... mod16 isn't elitist because 19k ilvl act rotation macroers can finally mingle with the common folk knowing that any bad choice they might have made in the name of fun, play style, lore, or role playing will have been eliminated and all they will have to correct is everyone's rotation.
@asterdahl "A system whereby it is possible to have a build that is superior in orders of magnitude when compared with another is a system which fosters and appeals to true elitism much more."
so asking a handful of best in class folks to determine the proper character build to force on everyone else is actually less elitist because in being prevented from making poor choices, we are all a little closer to best in class??? heck we may even be worth tolerating in a random queue...
"Players who are happy that more players will have a competent build ultimately want to play with more people and have a good time."
so the types of people who deem other people's character build "competent" will have more fun now??? now i understand what you are getting at... mod16 isn't elitist because 19k ilvl act rotation macroers can finally mingle with the common folk knowing that any bad choice they might have made in the name of fun, play style, lore, or role playing will have been eliminated and all they will have to correct is everyone's rotation.
I feel like there's a straw man here, so let me rephrase Asterdahl's position:
"trap" options are not actually options, they are traps.
"Underwater basketweaving" feats are not real feats, they are trap.
"System mastery" has its role, but a player that is not especially well informed should be able to perform adequately. If there's a huge gulf between best and worst builds, then the worst builds either A.) can't do the bare minimum of content or B.) the content is totally irrelevant for the best builds.
I'm not 100% on board with the *way* this issue was resolved in mod 16, but I can at least understand the purpose of the changes.
(Excluding the stat changes, those are just bad)
2
theycallmetomuMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,861Arc User
@asterdahl "A system whereby it is possible to have a build that is superior in orders of magnitude when compared with another is a system which fosters and appeals to true elitism much more."
so asking a handful of best in class folks to determine the proper character build to force on everyone else is actually less elitist because in being prevented from making poor choices, we are all a little closer to best in class??? heck we may even be worth tolerating in a random queue...
"Players who are happy that more players will have a competent build ultimately want to play with more people and have a good time."
so the types of people who deem other people's character build "competent" will have more fun now??? now i understand what you are getting at... mod16 isn't elitist because 19k ilvl act rotation macroers can finally mingle with the common folk knowing that any bad choice they might have made in the name of fun, play style, lore, or role playing will have been eliminated and all they will have to correct is everyone's rotation.
I feel like there's a straw man here, so let me rephrase Asterdahl's position:
"trap" options are not actually options, they are traps.
"Underwater basketweaving" feats are not real feats, they are trap.
"System mastery" has its role, but a player that is not especially well informed should be able to perform adequately. If there's a huge gulf between best and worst builds, then the worst builds either A.) can't do the bare minimum of content or B.) the content is totally irrelevant for the best builds.
I'm not 100% on board with the *way* this issue was resolved in mod 16, but I can at least understand the purpose of the changes.
(Excluding the stat changes, those are just bad)
Also, to be clear:
There are something on the order of 160 different builds, ignoring gear, companions, and mounts. There's more than enough room to distinguish oneself. I'd personally prefer 4 sets of 3 instead of 5 sets of 2, but that's only relevant at the margin.
1
minotaur2857Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,141Arc User
No, I am comparing Neverwinter to the Neverwinter I played when I started the game. I started this game long before you did. When I started it, the cloak did not exist, the DC sigil did not exist, heck, artifacts did not even exist and the game was a lot more balanced (and it had a much larger playerbase).
Furthermore, I literally just proposed they double the AP gain per second that you currently have, effectively netting you more AP then you currently get from the cloak, the point is, the cloak should not exist because there is no reason to ever unslot 1. Maybe you should actually read what I write instead of complaining.
And with regards to that comment on 20 button games, when I started NW, CDs looked like this: https://youtu.be/Bd3VnfA6i_A Notice, he holds encounters, choosing not to use them, instead of spamming encounters, because timing was essential. If you think buff timing was hard, this was 10000x harder.
Yeah, let me just go back to using the iPhone 5 from 6 years ago. Because I want products to be the way they were when I first started using them. Games evolve which a lot of people seem to not understand, it is not the same game we had at the launch. And so what if you have played longer than me and youre amazingly great at math? My opinion matters just as much as anyone else, you cant just throw my argument out the window just because I started at mod 5 and you at beta. I'm not sitting here complaining just because I'm salty that you do great math, I'm trying to bring forth my way of looking at the stale boring gameplay that we have before us which you completely disregard in your feedback. You want more strategic decisions in using our powers, whats strategic about it now? There is 0 rotations and variations on how to do things. You literally stand and wait for your powers to come back, thats it.
Did you even watch the video? There is nothing strategic about now, just like there is nothing strategic about stacking buffs, but there is something strategic happening in that video and that is what you are missing. If you watch closely, you will see they are explicitly not spamming encounters or using them the very moment they are off cooldown, they are waiting till the correct moment. To get there, you first need to cut down on the relative strength of characters, a lot. People need to go from being gods to being mere mortals, where failing to position will instantly see you die.
Did you also miss the point where I was actually proposing they buff AP gain overall, or is reading comprehension difficult?
You are putting your own reasons for playing up as the only reasons that are valid. No some of us DON'T want the content to be so difficult we can't do it. Not everybody has top flight reactions and a connection that allows us to use them. Strategy doesn't work if the red patches only arrive AFTER the damage has killed you, and this is all too common. Some of us just want a fun game to play not a military operation, we'd play a raiding game if we wanted that. The downpowering and more important slowing down of any decent attacks are a disaster for my fun.
This is a fairly average ping for me, often its worse, especially in ToNG or CoDG. Unless you also live in Africa or back of the nowhere Australia my connection is probably worse than yours, a lot worse. If I can do it, so can you.
We have a South African in our guild who regularly does high end dungeons with a ping of 3000.
Your connection is worse than mine, I have a much better ping than that, but it still doesn't stop red areas appearing after or as the damage associated with them does, and turning the graphics down or upgrading my graphics card hasn't helped.
Why slider? It could just be so if u buy it, all your old seals are changed into new ones. BTW same gose for relic traders in Storm King campagne. We can't trade them (relics) to anyone, not even between characters in the same account so waht;s the point of slider there? I won't mention that this slider is not from 0 to max of owned relics of selected type but 20.
I mentioned this on the fighter thread, but having given it a bit more thought I'm wondering...
What do Wizards, Rogues and Rangers bring to a Dungeon Group, that Warlocks, Barbarians, Fighters and Clerics don't?
Because I can tell you what those second 4 bring that the first 3 don't... the flexibility to change into a support role at any Camp Fire along the dungeon.
Balance in role v role performance seems to be one of the main thrusts of the overhaul. What you might be forgetting is that (particularly end-game) dungeon groups look to extract every single perceived benefit they can when tackling the toughest content.
I'm sitting here thinking, "If a Barbarian's DPS build is as DPS valid as a Rogue, why not take a Barbarian for the extra Tanking if we need it?" Same with say... Ranger vs Cleric, or Wizard vs Fighter...
Why take something that has the same capacity in one role as its alternatives, but lacks the versatility of a second entire role within the party?
(And a third load out answers the "Single Target vs AoE" argument.)
Why would I not take... Paladin + 2 from Barbarian/Fighter + 2 from Cleric/Warlock (Or just one of each). That gives 3 Healers, 3 Tanks, 4 DPS that can be organised into any combination of 5 to suit the situation in a given dungeon?
This isn't a moan, or a complaint, by the way. I'm genuinely interested in knowing how you've gone about making sure pure DPS classes will be just as eagerly required in end game content as DPS/Support hybrids.
I hope you don't get stuck in the long grass of the statistical tweaks and bugs to not get the chance to keep ALL classes "in the loop" as it were as. For me, getting rid of the 2/2/1 "meta" group from end game was just as important as anything else in the overhaul.
Hello! Thanks for the feedback, I can assure you we are dedicated to ensuring that everyone playing as a DPS will have as equal a consideration as possible in group content.
One of the ways we will avoid the problem you are describing is: you will be unable to change paragon paths in queued content. So you won't be taking a barbarian swordmaster over a rogue because the barbarian has the option to switch to a tank if needed.
I am actually not certain if this change is in the preview build that is up right now, I apologize and I can't check at the moment. There also may be some issues and ways to circumvent this at the moment, but over the next few weeks we'll be closing any holes.
To be clear, you'll still be able to change loadouts, but the loadout must match the role you queued as. (Loadouts now clearly have the role marked on them in your loadout list as as well.)
Hopefully this answers your question and your concerns!
To clarify, for example a wizard can switch from Arcanist to Thaumaturge or Thaumaturge to Arcanist during a dungeon, but a Cleric cannot swap between Devout and Arbiter in a dungeon? Also, does this apply to random queues only or also premades?
This question is very important for the 2x DPS classes (CW, TR, HR).
I'm not super familiar with all of the mod16 changes, but I got the sense that these classes offered paragons that were different in playstyle and also in single target vs. AoE focus. If players are unable to switch between the two paragons, it would effectively force everyone to queue with the single target focus paragon and run suboptimal AoE builds. Assuming you can only pick one for the whole dungeon, optimized single target DPS is more important than AoE.
Please allow classes to change paragons as long as they don't change roles.
About the feats locked on Encounters this is how i see, I ll speak only about Barbarian, DPS path and TANK path, since there are shared atwills,encounters,dailies and class features, they obviously shouldnt hv high damage or high survival abilities, so this is where the Feats are coming through, because the Feats will be there to enhance the Powers to make them be used for that certain Role.
If they succed into doing this? I don't know, thats why we are here to give them feedback, to make them work, but imo if they succed into making them usefull, why shouldn't we help them to do so?
Can you imagine that finally we will have working as intended Classes, and easy to balance between themselves later on, because now compared to what was in the past, the Developers kno' exactly how to track the problems and keep them from running wild.
It will be easy to provide metrics from our side, and the DATAs they have on their side, to balance all classes between themselves, the developers even repeated that they are goin to make the following
Barbarians, Fighters and Paladins will be equally good on TANKING
Warlocks, Paladins and Clerics will be equally good on HEALING
Barbarians, Rogues, Fighters, Wizards, Rangers , Warlocks will be equally good on DPS.
Now we know that equallity can't be achieved, but in this new system the discrepancy will be low, so finally they can make them close to equal, and be done with it.
Anyway this is how i think the new system would work, or will work. It is the only way to not make Godly classes that 1 class with 1 meta is the best at everything.
Your argument are both strong and imo valid, i can see the point you are making and it is a good one.
I also think that especially you pointing out that tank will be equally good at tanking as well as dps classes on dps and healing on healing something that will change the game to the better.
Making sure that this flavor or the month class/build due to nerfing/boosting will go away will certainly help the player experience better on a long term basis(even if it might in fact lower something in sales point of view but that is another matter).
However there are several post about locking down at wills with certain encounters in feats together with both dailies and other encounters to other feats will streamline what to pick and how to play a bit to much and imho that is something that in the long run will make the game less fun to play when forced into using a to much set up build.
I strongly think that what you are saying, again very good arguments, can be done and still leave up to the players a bit more room to viggle between what to use and how to performe depending on how they pick their feats etc.
A good example is the last feat on Hr range where you pick between 2 dailies as the LAST and final feat at lvl 80. If i do not want to use either of them, or if I in different situation have better use of others that feat is just vasted. If feats was instead tied to something that effect the characters in there overall performance it would allow more freedom in both playstyle and overall performance.
> Except this means you can't have pally switch from heal to tank, cleric from DPS to heal and (G)F from tank to DPS if you want to try a different configuration for a particular fight because people are having issues.
>
> There needs to be a way of taking a time out to make the changes and only checking AFTER.
Private queues can reshuffle the same way as when players swap characters, leave and get reinvited.
Yeah, but this sort of frustration is much more likely in a public Q situation where one of the tank or healer is not up to the job, and a cleric or pally of higher IL needs to step up.
And if they aren't locked to a specific Role then the whole Question that was put up a few posts ago comes up. If you could change, then why would you ask for a Rogue when a Barb can do the Rogue's job AND tank if needed.
you will be unable to change paragon paths in queued content [...] To be clear, you'll still be able to change loadouts, but the loadout must match the role you queued as.
To clarify, for example a wizard can switch from Arcanist to Thaumaturge or Thaumaturge to Arcanist during a dungeon, but a Cleric cannot swap between Devout and Arbiter in a dungeon? Also, does this apply to random queues only or also premades?
Unfortunately, he says both "you can't swap Paragons" and "you can swap loadouts as long as roles match". So I want the same clarification, please?
I suspect "queued content" means "all queued content" - but in a private queue, you could leave, swap loadouts, and be re-invited, so the restriction seems a little pointless.
Anyway. Great questions, I would love that clarification too!
Comments
This is a fairly average ping for me, often its worse, especially in ToNG or CoDG. Unless you also live in Africa or back of the nowhere Australia my connection is probably worse than yours, a lot worse. If I can do it, so can you.
It may not be network lag, so much as graphics lag; remember how everyone had all that trouble back in the snow filled regions when they first launched? Or maybe I'm just daffy and remembering things that never happened.
But I say that mostly out of a vague understanding that sort of thing has been a problem before, not with any comprehensive understanding of how various forms of latency work.
I do understand that the actual choice is indeed tremendous if you count using different isignias, take boons that are pretty much useless compared to the few that are good etc etc.
First I want to say that that will have very little impact on your playstyle, however companions, mount powers and gear will ofc allow a certain freedom when it comes to building your character but most of that is imo an illution.
If you take into an account the new stat curve for arpen, defence, crit etc the end zones having 24000 it will certainly limit the options as they negate whatever you have making anything below useless exept hp/power.
In my character creation I feel less locked down on my Hr then on my Gf/pal which feel very limited indeed both in tank and dps set up.
My major concern is that the feats should allow for more utility choices i.q. defence vs hp, power vs crit not locking down feats to become utterly useless when i don´t use a certain encounter. The feat you pick should more or less always give an impact on how you play not lock down some way to be much more effective then others.
That is a bit to much guidience by making others that you want to use so much less effective.
Again i do understand the part of avoiding to make to bad choices but this feel just a tad bit to much pick this IT IS THE BEST.
Cleric: You can be an angel of mercy or give in to hate. - Shinedown
Wizard: The more the dark consumes me, I pretend I'm burning bright. - Shinedown
Barbarian: Am I beautiful... as I tear you to pieces? - In This Moment
Mod 16 launches
People get all the mod 16 gear
Mod 17 launches
People now can use professions/guild stores to get gear that is > mod 16 gear.
<font color=red>This text will display in red.</font>
Delete me. I can't get color to work!
> Please don't level lock Yawning Portal. Please make it a place like the Moonstone mask, and later add third level as Vip!
> It would be a perfert place to roleplay and I would like to be able to acess it with all my characters no matter the level. Even if you have to level lock undermountain you do not need to level lock the travel option to get to the Yawning Portal. Please consider changing this to allow any level to go there.
>
> So it can be a hub for yet more sexual flirting like MM? Please, no. Just. No.
>
> Of course not and also Moonstone is mild depending on the people. This is a roleplaying game and I really would like to see more roleplay in other locations. They way they designed it makes it harder to see rp outside the moonstone mask, and the problem is many see it as a brothel lorewise and basically pretty much is one. There is many that possibly avoid roleplaying because its confined to one place, and having an non brothel roleplay hub would really be beneficial to the roleplay community.
>
>
> i'm with hustin on this personally and mild? lol. I guess it depends on what you're used to. I'm fine with keeping it in moonstone because I don' thave to go there. yawning portal we have to go to.. so please no..
RP dating in campaign areas?
Let me ask Will Smith...
"Aww, HAAAAAIL no!"
You wanna get geek-freaky? Take that kinky HAMSTER to Moonstone or a back alley of PE.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
so asking a handful of best in class folks to determine the proper character build to force on everyone else is actually less elitist because in being prevented from making poor choices, we are all a little closer to best in class??? heck we may even be worth tolerating in a random queue...
"Players who are happy that more players will have a competent build ultimately want to play with more people and have a good time."
so the types of people who deem other people's character build "competent" will have more fun now??? now i understand what you are getting at... mod16 isn't elitist because 19k ilvl act rotation macroers can finally mingle with the common folk knowing that any bad choice they might have made in the name of fun, play style, lore, or role playing will have been eliminated and all they will have to correct is everyone's rotation.
hat tip to @dread4moor
Hit for 13million+ in a heroic in Twisted Caverns.
And it's "font color=whatever" and "/font", not "style".
"trap" options are not actually options, they are traps.
"Underwater basketweaving" feats are not real feats, they are trap.
"System mastery" has its role, but a player that is not especially well informed should be able to perform adequately. If there's a huge gulf between best and worst builds, then the worst builds either A.) can't do the bare minimum of content or B.) the content is totally irrelevant for the best builds.
I'm not 100% on board with the *way* this issue was resolved in mod 16, but I can at least understand the purpose of the changes.
(Excluding the stat changes, those are just bad)
There are something on the order of 160 different builds, ignoring gear, companions, and mounts. There's more than enough room to distinguish oneself. I'd personally prefer 4 sets of 3 instead of 5 sets of 2, but that's only relevant at the margin.
Your connection is worse than mine, I have a much better ping than that, but it still doesn't stop red areas appearing after or as the damage associated with them does, and turning the graphics down or upgrading my graphics card hasn't helped.
I'm not super familiar with all of the mod16 changes, but I got the sense that these classes offered paragons that were different in playstyle and also in single target vs. AoE focus. If players are unable to switch between the two paragons, it would effectively force everyone to queue with the single target focus paragon and run suboptimal AoE builds. Assuming you can only pick one for the whole dungeon, optimized single target DPS is more important than AoE.
Please allow classes to change paragons as long as they don't change roles.
Your argument are both strong and imo valid, i can see the point you are making and it is a good one.
I also think that especially you pointing out that tank will be equally good at tanking as well as dps classes on dps and healing on healing something that will change the game to the better.
Making sure that this flavor or the month class/build due to nerfing/boosting will go away will certainly help the player experience better on a long term basis(even if it might in fact lower something in sales point of view but that is another matter).
However there are several post about locking down at wills with certain encounters in feats together with both dailies and other encounters to other feats will streamline what to pick and how to play a bit to much and imho that is something that in the long run will make the game less fun to play when forced into using a to much set up build.
I strongly think that what you are saying, again very good arguments, can be done and still leave up to the players a bit more room to viggle between what to use and how to performe depending on how they pick their feats etc.
A good example is the last feat on Hr range where you pick between 2 dailies as the LAST and final feat at lvl 80.
If i do not want to use either of them, or if I in different situation have better use of others that feat is just vasted.
If feats was instead tied to something that effect the characters in there overall performance it would allow more freedom in both playstyle and overall performance.
Best
red text goes hereWithout the Code tags, that looks like this: red text goes here
HTML, not BBCode. Angle brackets, not square.
I suspect "queued content" means "all queued content" - but in a private queue, you could leave, swap loadouts, and be re-invited, so the restriction seems a little pointless.
Anyway. Great questions, I would love that clarification too!