Official M16: General Feedback

1141517192060

Comments

  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    @asterdahl
    A thought on the balancing of power damage, particularly for tank classes:


    You've told us that your paradigm is that at-wills provide 1/5 of your damage, with the rest being 1/5 from each encounter power and 1/5 from your dailies. I don't think there's anything wrong with this model per se, but it doesn't currently reflect for tanks because of how much time each tank class spends blocking- if you drop your guard, it's generally going to be for an Encounter that's come off cooldown, rather than to trade hits where it feels like you've got a wiffle bat and the other guy's got a classic slugger.

    At the very least, I'd suggest rolling back the tank spec damage penalty for atwills, maybe even add a Riposte mechanic where blocking attacks gives you a short duration of bonus atwill damage- not enough to make them hit like Encounters, obviously, but enough to constitute a damage increase proportional to the amount of time you expect us to spend blocking and encourage us to stop blocking to get a hit in.

    On the topic, given that tanks spend less of their time attacking (as it's generally our job to make the healer's life easier by blocking a hit, even with Encounters off cooldown, rather than to keep attacking unless we're actively losing threat), is the damage penalty even needed at all? We're not generally going to outdps the dps in our groups, since we'll be in front of the mobs(no consistent Combat Advantage, less incentive to gear for it), we won't be chasing offensive stats as hard due to needing to balance them with defensive ones, and we have less offensive uptime due to blocking when the dps is attacking.


    (post isn't showing up in Stats/mechanics, dunno why, giving it a shot over here)

    Hi Fenrir, thanks for the feedback! I will say, that we were taking into account blocking when we made those decisions. I would like to clarify though, that it's not intended that you "always be blockin'." In fact, you can keep threat in groups right now, and to do that you need to make good use of at-wills, only blocking when big damage is coming, or you see your health slipping and you're not getting any heals in time.

    That takes a while to get used to, especially as healers are learning to play. That being said, I do understand the core of your feedback and I am carefully reviewing tank DPS, I address this a bit more in the relevant class threads, so feel free to follow up this discussion in one of those threads. (Whichever you prefer.)
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    marnival said:

    Dear Devs.

    A masaive amount of feedback is concerned with the lack of build option and i see NO responce whatsoever to tha subject.

    Is there any talk among you to remedy this part or is everything set in stone already(usually is at this time when it hit preview).

    I see some feedback on tweeks, like aggro, a bit more damage with at wills but absolutly no answer to ANYTHING concerning this MAJOR outcry about limiting people into certain builds(with a comment about not wanting bad builds ??? isent that part of the game not to hand out premade characters...)

    There has been several good suggestions about how to make character creation more varied but you stay silent on the matter can you please at least comment this.

    Best

    Hello there @marnival , i see you have been looking for answers from devs, i am not a developer, but i am going to discuss about build options, and mainly on my main class Barbarian.

    Currently the class isn't that viable, as the Developer that is doing so has been pretty transparent of why is that, but he is been Listening to our feedback, and is been doing alot of good changes to the class in the upcoming patch, and the next after.
    Now i kno' that when you look at the new class revamp, you will think that every class can be played as only 2 paths, for barbarian is going to be TANK and DPS. And you might think that this is all, well it isn't the case for me. I think that in a final state a DPS Barbarian will change alot of its rotations in a PvE fight depending on situations, our Developer has a good grasp on the AoE(Cone, Straight line, 180 Degree) vs ST powers, Buff powers, Damage powers with or without Added Effect bonus, which means that the idea of having a tier 1, tier 2 or tier 3 power is out of the window, and ALL 9 Encounters can find a place in your Rotation, now it depends on the Situations where you are placed in, also the same thing will apply for class feature, where some of them will feel much better in Single Target or others in AoE. Hopefully he continues to listen to us, and we will get Slam (it was on the TANK path) and Indomitable Strength (it was on the TANK path) we will get them on the DPS path with the upcoming patch. Anyway so the new system narrowed down the powers/feats but has definitely taken away the FAKE CHOICES, and in my class case it made a wider variety of choices, and this is only on the DPS path, currently the TANK path is still being worked at, but they have done right the Class Mechanics on it.
    So i speak about my class, i dont speak for all of them, and i do not think the Barbarians are gettin a special treatement, or maybe your class you main will be just as good as Barbarian. Anyway hope you guys keep providing good feedback.
    I am glad you find that Gwf(barbarian) has some option that suits you :-).

    I am aiming a bit more about that when looking at boons(they are what they are and can not say i disslike the new set up) and feats they offer a very limited way of building your character.
    You might have several option during trash clearing and bosses on how the fight is set up(boss with aoe, boss that spawn a lot of adds etc etc) but the in the very character creation selecting stats, feats, boons and powers you are more or less doing a premade character.

    As an example on live my hr has 5 different loadouts from full trapper, full combat, hybrid combat, hybrid archer combat and hybrid archer trapper all which has differnt boons, feats, encouters enchants etc. Same is with my OP who has 4 different builds and my Gf 5 that I switch constantly between.

    The hours i have spent trying out new builds are both to many to remember and also been a very rewarding experience.

    Now with the change to stats, very limited feats that is mostly tied to certain powers among other things the theorycrafting when it comes to character creation is more or less gone, You might have some space for variation in what enounters you use when you play switching out this for that during differnt fights but that is another issue,

    Best

  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    bpstuart said:

    Ok not a bug or anything but for the love of sanity, change the companion's area of effect indicator to be different from that of the enemies, in a fracas you can't tell the difference between your healer's sunburst and some foe about to fill you with spiked death.

    you have spent the last few modules training us that "Red circle is dangerzone" so now companions giving of Danger circles just make me instinctively dodge away from my companions


    This is definitely a bug, and I've let the companion designer know, sorry about that! (I saw this the other day and also dodged it instinctively. Yikes!)
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    edited March 2019

    Complimentary Feedback

    The environments in Mod16 are gorgeous.
    The terrain, background details, subtle lighting effects... stunning.
    I particularly like the Tavern. Feels grounded and fun to run around with it's circular design.
    And a bartender who walks away from you and you have to grab his attention. Got a laugh out of that.
    Please extend congrats to the artists for their work.


    Forwarded your kudos to the artist and content designer involved!
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    > @hercules125 said:

    > Just wondering if it's too late for them to reconsider the class changes at this point....

    > IMO they should keep the level cap increase, new zones and content, but throw all the massive game play changes away.



    In short, yes.



    Longer answer, the class changes are currently shocking and can be hard to grasp in the sea of bugs and balancing problems that always plague the first public release of such a large patch. However as time goes on and the bugs get squashed and the balance gets sorted we will be able to get a better appreciation for the state of the classes in the game.



    The changes are not as limiting as people are feeling right now, That doesn’t mean I don’t think there isn’t room for improvement in the classes, on the contrary, but I do think that once the bulk of the work on bugs and balance is done it will be easier to discuss those in class improvements as well. Those non-starter powers in various trees and classes that need to go because they break the design goals of the module are much easier to replace and test for broken interactions now than they have ever been in the past.

    I appreciate your tempered approach to change, and we are all of one mind that things are far from perfect at the moment. We are working on it.

    Make sure you post as much about those specific powers as you can in various class threads. (I'm sure you have, but I want to remind everyone, that if you think a power is worthless, let us know.)
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Haven't seen this mentioned, but forgive me if it was and I missed it:

    On M16 currently:
    Superior Potion of Accuracy -> gives Crit Strike
    Superior Tidespan Potion -> gives Accuracy
    Could we move Accuracy stat to the Potion of Accuracy, and then rename Tidespan potions to something like Potion of Precision or Cruelty (to play off the old green armor name when they had Crit)?

    Noted, we'll look into this.
  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User

    Nowdays we all have the same build, crit 100% and power creep.
    With undermountain we will have a choice: crit build or CA build.
    Sure we all will miss the extreme buff but I think it will give us the opportunity to show more gameplay skills.
    A lot of people cry about the new companion system but just think about it, its super nice now we are not limited in slots and we can be very situational. I mean we can tweak the player power regarding where and what we fighting ( a set of companions for pve, a set for boss fight, a set for party, etc.).

    Once main issues fixed, I really believe undermountain will be fun.

    Indeed.

    MOD15
    image

    MOD16
    image
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    > @kangkeok said:

    > After watching the stream, standardizing everyone abilities score in character creation is just not right. Using new player unfamiliarity to the game as an excuses is even worse.



    It's called a gradual operation disinvestment plan.



    When a company anticipates diminishing returns from an asset or revenue source, instead of selling it off or killing it outright, they gradually streamline it to continue earning on a smaller and smaller scale for as long as possible.



    First, they trim the fat: Get rid of cost-centers. Non-money-making, non-essential products, services or features.

    Remember the Gateway? Foundry? Those were cost centers. Gone.



    Phase 2 is scaling down the complexity or quality of your product to lesson production cost. eg. A no-roll prefab character class system with only 2 options for each class.



    Takes far less FTEs to run. We are in phase 2 now.



    This will get censored if I explain phase 3 which should happen in the next 1-2 years I'm guessing.

    I responded to a similar post in another thread, but I would like to reiterate that the large scale overhauls in Module 16 are not part of a business initiative. The Neverwinter design team has wanted to make some large scale and sweeping changes to many of the core fundamental elements of the game that prevented us offering interesting and challenging content to any meaningful degree.

    It's certainly true that our job in regards to keeping classes balanced moving forward will be easier. However, it is not the case that the Neverwinter team has lost designers and can no longer support keeping "more complex" classes in a balanced state. I will be the first to admit that the classes have never been in a balanced state, not even at launch.

    Of course, you may choose to not to believe whatever you'd like, but hopefully that gives you a little insight. None of that by the way, is to say that we aren't seriously listening to everyone's feedback about the changes they don't like.



  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer
    marnival said:

    Dear Devs.

    A masaive amount of feedback is concerned with the lack of build option and i see NO responce whatsoever to tha subject.

    Is there any talk among you to remedy this part or is everything set in stone already(usually is at this time when it hit preview).

    I see some feedback on tweeks, like aggro, a bit more damage with at wills but absolutly no answer to ANYTHING concerning this MAJOR outcry about limiting people into certain builds(with a comment about not wanting bad builds ??? isent that part of the game not to hand out premade characters...)

    There has been several good suggestions about how to make character creation more varied but you stay silent on the matter can you please at least comment this.

    Best

    I have responded to this feedback quite a bit in the various class threads I am handling (Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, and Cleric.) I will try to address the topic more directly in this thread in the near future.
  • obsidiancran3
    obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    Why am I getting scaled in the Undermountain dungeon?
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • asterdahl
    asterdahl Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 1,258 Cryptic Developer

    Why am I getting scaled in the Undermountain dungeon?

    This is a bug, and will absolutely not be happening at launch.
  • marnival
    marnival Member Posts: 1,432 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    marnival said:

    Dear Devs.

    A masaive amount of feedback is concerned with the lack of build option and i see NO responce whatsoever to tha subject.

    Is there any talk among you to remedy this part or is everything set in stone already(usually is at this time when it hit preview).

    I see some feedback on tweeks, like aggro, a bit more damage with at wills but absolutly no answer to ANYTHING concerning this MAJOR outcry about limiting people into certain builds(with a comment about not wanting bad builds ??? isent that part of the game not to hand out premade characters...)

    There has been several good suggestions about how to make character creation more varied but you stay silent on the matter can you please at least comment this.

    Best

    I have responded to this feedback quite a bit in the various class threads I am handling (Paladin, Fighter, Barbarian, and Cleric.) I will try to address the topic more directly in this thread in the near future.
    Many tnx for the answer @asterdahl many /hugs.

    Best
  • xdruidgregx
    xdruidgregx Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    Does that "Retrane All Boons" button is intended to be there when M16 goes live? I presume not as there also is "Retrain Boon page" button ( though it;s grayed out now). Anyway, presuming i would have to pay to redistribute boons some of them are just not worth of picking ( those aiming specific type of enemy, I wont even mention 5% that they give when maxed). Why enyone would want to limit himself to boon that gives "advantage" only towards one type of enemy.



    I'm maxed out on boons, in red i marked boons enemy type specific. As u see i havent pick any of it coz they're not universal enough to be useful. I'm almost sure large percent of players if not all of them skipp those boons all togethers.

    Solution for that adjust % of those boons or remake them and make boons free to redistribyte, i might pick dmg and rez against dinos when i'm doing thing on chult but i don't need them while on DR where there are no dinos.

    about feats, u could make bunch of them and allow player to pick limited number of them. You might say: "how is it diferent then now", well for once it wouldn't be divided by trees. One list like boons now and enlocking nest one would be limited by character level (every 10 levels would unlock new point to redistripute amongs them).
    Biggest challenge would be making all of them equally usable. Its just an idea though.



  • viraaal
    viraaal Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Wrong thread, deleted and will repost in the right place.
  • wormwoood
    wormwoood Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    it would be nice to have companion and mounts useable account wide, once you have them on one toon... something like a common storage that all characters on account could access.... might something like this be posable?.. thanks for your time..
  • xdruidgregx
    xdruidgregx Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    Could someone tell me whats general damage calculation formula? I presume magnitude of skills is present in that formula.
  • dread4moor
    dread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    > @kangkeok said:

    > After watching the stream, standardizing everyone abilities score in character creation is just not right. Using new player unfamiliarity to the game as an excuses is even worse.



    It's called a gradual operation disinvestment plan.



    When a company anticipates diminishing returns from an asset or revenue source, instead of selling it off or killing it outright, they gradually streamline it to continue earning on a smaller and smaller scale for as long as possible.



    First, they trim the fat: Get rid of cost-centers. Non-money-making, non-essential products, services or features.

    Remember the Gateway? Foundry? Those were cost centers. Gone.



    Phase 2 is scaling down the complexity or quality of your product to lesson production cost. eg. A no-roll prefab character class system with only 2 options for each class.



    Takes far less FTEs to run. We are in phase 2 now.



    This will get censored if I explain phase 3 which should happen in the next 1-2 years I'm guessing.

    I responded to a similar post in another thread, but I would like to reiterate that the large scale overhauls in Module 16 are not part of a business initiative. The Neverwinter design team has wanted to make some large scale and sweeping changes to many of the core fundamental elements of the game that prevented us offering interesting and challenging content to any meaningful degree.

    It's certainly true that our job in regards to keeping classes balanced moving forward will be easier. However, it is not the case that the Neverwinter team has lost designers and can no longer support keeping "more complex" classes in a balanced state. I will be the first to admit that the classes have never been in a balanced state, not even at launch.

    Of course, you may choose to not to believe whatever you'd like, but hopefully that gives you a little insight. None of that by the way, is to say that we aren't seriously listening to everyone's feedback about the changes they don't like.



    I do believe you.
    That is, I believe you are being honest in telling what you know to be true.
    Also, you are a real person with a real job.
    This is all just a game to us, but this is your profession.
    Discussing matters that effect your career and future employment in a casual way on a game forum really is unfair and a bit cruel, really.
    I apologize for that.

    I was pointing out the fact that many of Cryptic's product/service reduction decisions exactly fit the pattern of the classic gradual disinvestment business model.
    That doesn't mean it applies to your company, but it is a legitimate observation.

    If you say Mod16 changes are not "product downsizing", we'll have to take your word for it.




    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    adinosii said:


    To me this looks like a (very misguided) effort to prevent new players from making "bad" choices, but the result is that it removes much of the fun from character building, and may increase the likelihood of veteran players leaving.

    Nah.. they are doing this prevent power creep. They are splitting all the feat up so player could no longer combine all the BIS feat together to create a BIS cookie cutter build. Mod15 is all about picking the best feat and putting them together. Picking the best encounter and spam them together and Wham! 1-2hit boss. No different with playing a high striker. Just gather everything up and smash it.

    If u ask me about build flexibility? I say both mod doesn't have much to look from end game perspective. Mod 16 is restricted by the option given to player. Mod15 is dictate by the meta optimization. Anything that is not in meta, isn't viable. Though the effect that the both generate are quite the opposite. Mod 16 reduces the power creep by dividing powerful feat in sets of option and between paragon. While mod 15 encourage power creep by allowing the player to horde all the best feat together. And the developer no doubt are trying to reduce the power creep.
  • xdruidgregx
    xdruidgregx Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    OK, i understand that but it's as u said:
    kangkeok said:

    (...)Mod15 is all about picking the best feat and putting them together. (...)

    and that means there are "best" feats and that means that feats are not equal. This in my opinion is core of problem here not sheer number of feats. I understand its not easy to balance them and lower number makes it easier, not always less choice is better choise.
  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    OK, i understand that but it's as u said:

    kangkeok said:

    (...)Mod15 is all about picking the best feat and putting them together. (...)

    and that means there are "best" feats and that means that feats are not equal. This in my opinion is core of problem here not sheer number of feats. I understand its not easy to balance them and lower number makes it easier, not always less choice is better choise.
    Hmm.. not exactly. I dont know how to phrased it but lets just say the "important" feat. Take a look at trapper feat. There are few main feat must be taken for them to function as in mod15 but i'll take 2 of the most crucial one as an example. Thorn root for damage and swiftness of fox for encounter spamming. This 2 feat gives trapper both damage and cooldown reduction in mod 15. While mod16 separates them. So u can pick between cooldown or the damage but u cant have both. The developer could have let them pick between a damage feat and a movement speed feat but they didn't. Else people will go for the obvious. That's how they keep balance in mod16.
  • silvertail
    silvertail Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 97 Arc User
    With the current ability stats the only difference you can make is to change your race. As a rogue since dex does nothing for my char other then raise crit why would i want it as my highest stat? I can easily make up for that with gear. Str gives higher damage so as it stands now i would rather have a higher str. However that would mean changing my race as that is the only way to even come close to being able to change ability stats as it stands now. I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY A DRAGON BORN!!! Some people like that race that fine I do not. I have always played a half elf in DnD which is why I play one here even though it didn't give the best stats for a rogue. However in live the only reason I don't have the bis damage is because I only have rank 10 enchants.

    You will never be able to stop people from making mistakes. As I have kids this is proof ( no matter how many times you tell them they will get hurt THEY will still do it). The better thing to do would have been to do a reroll token ( say for 500 zen in store) Hell you would even have older players who have been here from the start buying them just to make a change.

    The reason I started this game was because of the Drizzt books that I love. The reason I continue to play is because of the choices I have in setting up a char as well as the combat system. Even with all the bugs in the game I've never thought about finding a new one. I've stayed at a lower item lvl simply because of the challenge it give in doing dungeons. Yes I like doing high damage but I don't enjoy one shotting bosses. I like having to come up with a strategy on how to finish a dungeon vs raw power.

    There are a lot of things in the mod that will be great when the bugs are fixed but this isn't one of them. What does dex do for my char now? It doesn't give me a higher dodge rate, movement speed, faster attacking speed or anything else other then really crit. That is now capped at 50%. ( which with the way mobs are I'll never see it).

    The biggest point is you can't change the fact that people make mistakes. You can give them ways to fix them such as the above mentioned reroll token which isn't even in the game now (unless the race reroll gives it to you)

    stealth is survival skills (and not tanking skills, that is really different)
    stealth is damage
    stealth is mobility
    stealth is everything
    everything is stealth
    Stealth make TR OP, but lack of stealth make TR useless.
  • chrisb#7185
    chrisb#7185 Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    Given the massive changes to companions requiring huge investment for players to address please either

    A: give a free unlimited option to move companions between characters (account bound)
    B: give a free time limited option to move companions between characters
    C: give the option to move companions between characters for Zen/AD

    Rgds
  • xdruidgregx
    xdruidgregx Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    kangkeok said:



    Hmm.. not exactly. I dont know how to phrased it but lets just say the "important" feat. Take a look at trapper feat. There are few main feat must be taken for them to function as in mod15 but i'll take 2 of the most crucial one as an example. Thorn root for damage and swiftness of fox for encounter spamming. This 2 feat gives trapper both damage and cooldown reduction in mod 15. While mod16 separates them. So u can pick between cooldown or the damage but u cant have both. The developer could have let them pick between a damage feat and a movement speed feat but they didn't. Else people will go for the obvious. That's how they keep balance in mod16.

    I understand that and agree with you but we went from 40+ feats to 10. Selection as is in M16 is ok, but why not instead ot pick this or that feat make it multi choice. U would have to pick one of lets say 4 feats every rank. Same functionality and more combinations, problem solved, everyone's happy. That being said all of those choices need to be of equal usability with each other.


    Post edited by xdruidgregx on
  • rjc9000
    rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User
    edited March 2019

    Could someone tell me whats general damage calculation formula? I presume magnitude of skills is present in that formula.

    The most basic would be:

    (Weapon Damage)*(Magnitude)

    for most things in the game.

    You'd then need to consider other factors such as:

    Enemy DR and your RI (enemy DR-yourRI)
    Power (1+ Power/50000)
    Buffs (Product of (1+Buff%))

    and so on. I believe Janne's site has some handy info on the damage formula.

  • xdruidgregx
    xdruidgregx Member Posts: 57 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:


    The most basic would be:

    (Weapon Damage)*(Magnitude)

    for most things in the game.

    You'd then need to consider other factors such as:

    Enemy DR and your RI (enemy DR-yourRI)
    Power (1+ Power/50000)
    Buffs (Product of (1+Buff%))

    and so on. I believe Janne's site has some handy info on the damage formula.

    k, thx for that.
  • mordekai#1901
    mordekai#1901 Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User
    edited March 2019
    Will new Boons be added as new campaigns come along?
    I'm just concerned that, pretty soon, what have always been seen as the main campaign rewards may become attrition based. In the sense that the "Better you get" the less enticing the remaining Boons become, because you fill up the ones you actually WANT as soon as they are available.

    Post edited by mordekai#1901 on
  • fisenfis
    fisenfis Member Posts: 133 Arc User


    Attempted a heroic in the last new area, I know we are scaled down making the heroics harder to do but are we really supposed to be doing this little damage? The hardest hit I did with my daily (which usually hits for 300k+) hit for 3k damage. Even with a 10 man group these heroics seems next to impossible to complete.