I enjoy playing with new arbiter mechanics in pve, however in pvp mages for instance have a huge advantage damage wise against us. Since we need to hit with lance for an about 6 sec if not more to fully charge our fire pips in order to make fully charged FF skill. 6 seconds to build up power for arbiter is quite a lot vs something that could be fired instantly ...
> @iamsmokingone#2455 said: > this is the arbiter i've been running. i have radiant rank 15 in all offense slots, dark rank 15 in all utility and ruthless rank 15 in all defense. companion has 3 r15 recondite runestones and 3 r15 bonding runestones. r14 terror and elven batttle. ~20.8k IL > https://imgur.com/a/dhQTECf > https://imgur.com/a/S7jFW0P > https://imgur.com/a/MKmKD2g > https://imgur.com/a/4Gy2HUA > I saw on another thread about someone soloing esot so i tried it and it was easy, i feel it was about as hard as it should be for someone with her gear. i thought for a moment the boss garakas was actually going to kill me when i almost had him dead....his damage seemed to increase as the fight went on. took 10 min 18 sec and it said i killed 71 enemies and died 0 times. but this dungeon actually felt right. (Epic Shores of Tuern)
Aside from taking a lot longer solo than it does in M15, I think that the ESOT experience is tuned as I expected. I didn’t encounter any scaling issues on my runs.
Garakas has always been an extremely hard hitter for being in such a low dungeon, so I’m not surprised that he can still hurt.
this is the arbiter i've been running. i have radiant rank 15 in all offense slots, dark rank 15 in all utility and ruthless rank 15 in all defense. companion has 3 r15 recondite runestones and 3 r15 bonding runestones. r14 terror and elven batttle. ~20.8k IL https://imgur.com/a/dhQTECf https://imgur.com/a/S7jFW0P https://imgur.com/a/MKmKD2g https://imgur.com/a/4Gy2HUA I saw on another thread about someone soloing esot so i tried it and it was easy, i feel it was about as hard as it should be for someone with her gear. i thought for a moment the boss garakas was actually going to kill me when i almost had him dead....his damage seemed to increase as the fight went on. took 10 min 18 sec and it said i killed 71 enemies and died 0 times. but this dungeon actually felt right. (Epic Shores of Tuern)
Are you in guild? You miss 8k power. Also those stat and eq could be bit better balanced and we don't know if you performed best you could (it gets time to learn how DC operates after changes). Point is that even if we're uncertain you're "BiS" you still managed to solo grouped content. That shouldn't be the case and it proves that eSoT (and other content at this range) is still too easy. It was designed for 5 people after all.
Been playing Arbiter some now also. My complaint about divinity Regen still stands. A small increase would make it more forgiving. I know you want there to be fail error and skill requirement, but it still needs to be friendly to play. A little room for error in rotation goes a long way. It is significantly easier to build ap in this build however. I pretty much never got my daily up in devout. I was able to refill it about every 3-4 mobs as Arbiter. Something is off. Also, playing Arbiter you are rewarded for providing heals by using bastion with pips, which can be used to increase damage or eaten for divinity making the play easier, smoother, and more rewarding. Devout has no such. I'm expected, as you have said, to provide damage between my heals, but I have no mechanic to make this largely feasible. It eats too much divinty for not enough return, especially since devout does not have an instant divinity return like Arbiter can do by consuming pips.
Thanks for the feedback. The healing mechanic on Arbiter is far too strong right now. I know there's a very strong feeling that the divinity mechanic is not forgiving for Devout right now, so it is something that we are looking at. That being said, in group play, once you get even a little used to it—it's actually very uncommon to run out of divinity. So we don't want to overcorrect.
The unintuitive thing about asking for more divinity regeneration is, that the game will actually be less forgiving. Which was the whole problem with group content in the first place that resourced based healing will help to solve. Let's say you regenerate your divinity as fast as Arbiter on your Devout, we now assume you can get your divinity back extremely quick. Mistakes in content now need to happen on a timescale that your group can wipe quickly in the few seconds it takes for you to get back to a full bar.
On the other hand if divinity regenerates slowly, and you spend it slowly, we can allow for continued mistakes to be made, as you dip deeper and deeper into your reserves, because we know you can't get it back quickly, and if you run out completely, then you'll wipe.
That said, we don't want it to be miserable to play solo either—so we're going to keep an eye on things and adjustments are still very much on the table.
Thank you for engaging with us. First time in years I feel like we're not going to be saddled with absolute garbage. Just to be clear, I'm not asking for a large increase to divinty regeneration. It doesn't need that, just a SMALL tweak. When I'm running picture perfect on rotation on Arbiter, I'm not having any trouble, but if they start fanning around me and I'm not able to get a good judgement AoE on them, I'm in serious trouble. I run out of divinty trying to spam a mix of DPS and heals and find myself trying to kite and survive on atwills. I don't want an infinite divinity pool so there's no skill level. But, soloing a middle geared character through the solo content feels a little too harsh with the current divinty regeneration rate. In teams, I didn't have any problems.
On devout, my complaint is related, but not the same. I don't have any divinty issues if I'm just healbotting really. It's simple. A little boring but effective. It's when I try to throw that DPS I to the mix you say I should be able to. That eats my divinity like candy, and then I find myself shortchanged on heals without the time to stand there like an idiot holding tab.
Happy to engage! This week's build will feature a reduction to the cost of daunting light for Devouts. I'm going to keep my eye on this feedback. We're also still making adjustments to enemy difficulty, so I'm worried about turning too many dials at once, considering that it generally feels good in group play.
But I don't want it to suck to play as a Cleric in the open world any more than you do, so let me know how you feel over the coming weeks.
Well, I love the look and feel of the Arbiter. I'm going to post a basic rotation that will hopefully be effective at getting people used to powering up your encounter powers. First, I start with Lance At-Will to build fire pips. After I have a couple (or filled, your preference) I drop a Forgemaster's Flame encounter on the strongest mob. That will, in turn, give a radiant pip. So then I build radiant stacks by using the Sacred Flame [i think] At-Will. When full, I drop a Daunting Light on all the weaker mobs that have no doubt surrounded me by now. That gives me a pip of Fire. At this point, I liked using Divine Glow with the Feat 'Tipping the Scales' which gives full pips as long as you have at least 1 pip in fire or radiant. This would fill up my fire stacks and allow another fully maxed out Forgemaster's.
Keeping in mind those Encounter powers will also fill pips, but with the Divinity management, it seemed like an 'expensive' way of gaining pips, when At-Wills will do so for free.
So here is the critical feedback. 1) Divinity regeneration is slow. I foresee groups waiting in between battles for the Cleric to refill divinity. What it is from a D&D standpoint: "Following the harrowing battle, the Cleric grasps her holy symbol and prays for more divine inspiration." What it really is: "Wait a minute, I have to hold down tab for 20 seconds..." Perhaps increasing the rate of recovery outside of battle would help. 2) I love that At-Wills GENERATE pips. I hate the At-Wills USE pips. After running through River District Dig Sites (good mix of strength of enemies in there) for a couple hours, I NEVER wanted my At-Will to do 20 more Magnitude by using all the stacks. All it did was frustrate me when I misclicked or got out of rotation slightly.
Thanks for the updates to the class! Now I just need to find a group willing to let the Cleric learn to to heal so I can post comments on that!
Thanks for the feedback! I am truly happy to hear that you're having some fun with the Arbiter's mechanics!
I'd like to comment on two things: first, for the Arbiter, you can actually consume your pips to restore a huge chunk of divinity. Channeling divinity when you have pips consumes them to restore divinity. Give the a shot and after you've played with it for a while, let me know if you still feel like its too slow. How you work this into your rotation will depend on your build and power choices.
Second, on the topic of at-wills consuming pips. Please note that dailies can also be empowered by radiant or burning judgement. I did consider not allowing at-wills to consume pips, however, as using the opposite element would have to switch you to the other side of the scale anyway (because you can't have both burning and radiant judgement) I saw no reason not to let the at-wills benefit from judgement. In reality, yes you probably never want to actually consume pips with an at-will, but its better that if you make that mistake, at least your at-will did get some boost.
Yep, those at-will pip mechanics make sense, good call.
As for consuming the pips to restore divinity, it certainly makes pip and divinity Regen an interesting mechanic during battles, but I’m still not sold on out-of-battle divinity regeneration. It looked like the most I got was about 1/3 of the bar refilled with full pips. Maybe almost half. That still feels a little slow.
My 2 cents! Thanks!
Divinity from consuming judgement doesn't increase when out of combat, just the passive rate of restoration. I am considering increasing it, that being said—damage of divinity powers is balanced around as if you naturally waited for the divinity to come back. Other classes cool down's don't reset between pulls, so I may have to make other adjustments to compensate if out of combat divinity were increased too much.
Ive had full evening of pvp duels 1v1 ...and im surprised how chains are useless. Tank can just pick his shield up and backpedal like a boss as if nothing happened.
On the other note : Have you seen Tanks Shield Throw???? Thats just a joke 3 sec STUN control that can be followed by an anvil and 1 shot there u go. Nothing can be done vs that. And it seems there is a bug with the Shield Throw as well, Elven battle does not reduce its 3 sec duration whatsoever. It feels that i stay more then 3 sec more like 4..... PLAIN STUN CONTROL
Can we have similar control effect instead of useless chains?
Thanks for the report on shield throw. I'll look into it. Also, I'll be looking into the chains not properly holding down the fighter, they should not be able to move, regardless of block.
At first I was so excited about this new mod. but now I find the Cleric too easy to play. No skill or thought is really needed to and I personally feel this game had taken a back step for AC DC (sound like all classes and the method of playing) In my opinion my 5 year old granddaughter could play the test sever and I feel we have no choice but to become cookie cutter players. Hopefully some changes come or they put this mod on the back burner and re evaluate it. I'm not going to just stand there and throw a skill here and there BORING. How to fix this, I'm not sure except go to another game and that will very upsetting. tears. We are at the a certain level of skill and game playing. I don't feel this mod will continue the evolution or a positive improvement to the mmropg gaming community. Sorry my opinion.
I see some other players offering comments like this, but what specifically is the issue? How is M16 Cleric gameplay less complex than that of M15 AC DC, which is decidedly cookie-cutter if you are playing optimally? Seriously, you don't even have to care what you're attacking as long as you're hitting your powers in the appropriate sequence and casting AA constantly; you don't even need to really attempt to heal anyone and have no expectation at all of dealing meaningful damage.
I don't ask these questions to be belligerent; I'm genuinely curious as to why players feel that meaningful choices have been taken away and/or that their classes have become dumbed-down. To use Cleric as an example again, almost all of the Cleric feats were terrible in M15, but many of them looked decent upon casual observation...like Initiate of the Faith and almost the entire Virtuous and Faithful trees.
Im adding to the post of arazith07 in an other thread that its also the fluidity and the variety of encounters. We have a cleanse encounter now. Its great, really great. Its like the feat cleanse. But as an encounter. Awesome. I was using Cleanse as a heroic feat, it was needed in some situations despite the rage of former dps gf and survivor's wraps. But then we have different encounters that heal, thats all. And 1 mitigation encounter, astral shield. And its horrendous so far to use. I take it, we need practice.
But playing an AC like arazith07 mentioned was all about the pace. It felt quite intense to be able to get those 2 dailies up at same time, the exaltation on dps, and break the spirit empowered. Granted i was not often playing in groups one phasing bosses because most of my friends in NW dont belong to this category,but even with my friends, playing my AC was pleasant. It was intense. It was fun. Sometimes with weaker groups from alliance i even had to heal but it was still fun. I even had to dust off my faithful loadout for some K Team,specially the CR one. Still, it was fluid.
So since Terramak mentionned on stream that we need to insist on forum on the reasons why we are feeling bummed about the changes, im posting again.
I do not complain about losing powershare, about losing recovery,or investment into my character because its part of mmorpgs, i do complain because:
-I heal but it seems like my healing doesn't count towards any action points gain -I want to protect my tank, my melee dps but astral shield is tedious to cast and use (i mean, compare it to circle of power of Oathkeeper, now we talk about fluidity, why not doing something similar for us???) -I want to experience some rythm, some activity in my healing actions but for now, i almost bore myself to death when playing as devout in dungeon. -the divinity gain is somewhat off for a devout playing in group content.
On the other side, playing an Arbiter has some "rythm". Some kind of combos in it. The radiant/burning mechanisms is great. It takes a little to get used to but its great. I feel active, i feel not stuck on the ground...I dont feel thick or heavy. I dont know how to say it better. So promised its the last time im writing about it, still being hopeful for next weeks patches.
Hey Eolee, thanks so much for returning to clarify your points. I'm glad you're enjoying arbiter, but let me try to put aside some of your fears for Devout if I can, since it seems like you really want to play a healer!
There are some issues with AP gain while healing right now, we're looking into them, and I want to make sure you can gain AP as a healer, just as well as any other role.
In regards to Astral Shield vs. Circle of Power, those two are very different spells. Circle of Power is now just a healing buff zone that the Paladin healer wants to stand in, so it actually makes them "less" mobile as well. That being said, for this week—you'll have the option to take a feat instead of the deprecated wide flare, that allows you to move while channeling astral shield. Let me know what you think.
Ultimately, Astral Shield may not be for everyone, but it is quite powerful currently. Internally, some of our testers have been making good use out of it and enjoying it, that being said, a lot of content is just too easy to heal right now, so I can totally see the point about it being a bit boring. We're looking into making adjustments that should make healing more challenging and exciting.
Another problem, searing light is stated as hitting enemies in a line, but from 3 days of testing I find this power to only hit 1 target, while forgemasters flame has on several occasions killed 2,3 or even 4 enemies at once yet is stated as single target and FF can still be cast 2x if spammed
Thank you for the report, I'll look into the area of effect for these spells. We've never seen Forgemaster's Flame hit more than one target, and it hits so hard—I feel like someone would have noticed if it had! So that's a bizarre bug, I'll work to track it down, and ensure searing light is hitting multiple targets as well.
Can you comment on the intent of how a Devout is supposed to recover divinity? I can see the ticks over time if I want to hold tab, and possibly losing a (valuable) encounter slot for DG. Am I missing something else? The feats that give divinity don't feel like they do much.
I think the problem I'm encountering is that Devout feels really unsatisfying not being able to do anything about divinity. On the Arbiter side, you can spend your pips to get divinity. Admittedly this allows for dramatic divinity gain that would overpower Devout's healing. But the distinct lack of any option to do "anything" active when your divinity drains feels really unsatisfying. Throwing your hands up to the sky and slowly walking around feels really depressing.
The answer, though it seems like you already know and are not going to like it—is that is what channel divinity is for. Healers are not supposed to be able to recover their divinity quickly for reasons I have elaborated on quite a bit already, though I'm happy to go over them again if you have trouble finding any of the posts where I address it.
That being said, I'm not unsympathetic, and I'd like to make sure I understand the feedback clearly, so if you are having trouble with divinity, can you tell me more about it? Are you mostly having issues solo? In group play? What powers were you running?
Are you using more than 1 spender in solo play? Have you tried adding non-spenders to your bar as well?
In group play at least, divinity hasn't been a challenge at all in content that isn't having bugs for any of our recent internal playtests, so I am honestly much more concerned that healing is a little too easy and boring at the moment. But if other people are having major divinity issues in party play, I want to hear all about it.
(Admittedly, if your group is doing terrible, and you have divinity issues after desperately healing them for a while, well that's actually intentional!)
Ive had full evening of pvp duels 1v1 ...and im surprised how chains are useless. Tank can just pick his shield up and backpedal like a boss as if nothing happened.
On the other note : Have you seen Tanks Shield Throw???? Thats just a joke 3 sec STUN control that can be followed by an anvil and 1 shot there u go. Nothing can be done vs that. And it seems there is a bug with the Shield Throw as well, Elven battle does not reduce its 3 sec duration whatsoever. It feels that i stay more then 3 sec more like 4..... PLAIN STUN CONTROL
Can we have similar control effect instead of useless chains?
Thanks for the report on shield throw. I'll look into it. Also, I'll be looking into the chains not properly holding down the fighter, they should not be able to move, regardless of block.
Can you pls look for "Into the Frey" daily that gives HUGE amount of AP to that matter that GF can have his shield up almost always blocking all the incoming damage.
Can you comment on the intent of how a Devout is supposed to recover divinity? I can see the ticks over time if I want to hold tab, and possibly losing a (valuable) encounter slot for DG. Am I missing something else? The feats that give divinity don't feel like they do much.
I think the problem I'm encountering is that Devout feels really unsatisfying not being able to do anything about divinity. On the Arbiter side, you can spend your pips to get divinity. Admittedly this allows for dramatic divinity gain that would overpower Devout's healing. But the distinct lack of any option to do "anything" active when your divinity drains feels really unsatisfying. Throwing your hands up to the sky and slowly walking around feels really depressing.
The answer, though it seems like you already know and are not going to like it—is that is what channel divinity is for. Healers are not supposed to be able to recover their divinity quickly for reasons I have elaborated on quite a bit already, though I'm happy to go over them again if you have trouble finding any of the posts where I address it.
That being said, I'm not unsympathetic, and I'd like to make sure I understand the feedback clearly, so if you are having trouble with divinity, can you tell me more about it? Are you mostly having issues solo? In group play? What powers were you running?
Are you using more than 1 spender in solo play? Have you tried adding non-spenders to your bar as well?
In group play at least, divinity hasn't been a challenge at all in content that isn't having bugs for any of our recent internal playtests, so I am honestly much more concerned that healing is a little too easy and boring at the moment. But if other people are having major divinity issues in party play, I want to hear all about it.
(Admittedly, if your group is doing terrible, and you have divinity issues after desperately healing them for a while, well that's actually intentional!)
Okay, I feel the need to give my 2 cents on this.
I don't think the issue here is whether you can heal enough (although that could be part of the issue). Devout just "feels" slower to play due to the channel divinity requirement.
Arbiter rotation is like at-wills tab encounter at-wills tab encounter encounter at-wills daily etc
which translates to a feeling of something like damage damage damage damage tab damage damage damage
while devout is more like at-wills encounter encounter encounter hold tab encounter hold tab encounter encounter hold tab daily encounter
which feels more like heal heal heal waiting waiting waiting waiting still waiting heal waiting waiting heal heal waiting shield! heal waiting
Waiting feels bad. It's not that I feel like I need to save everyone every half second (well ... I do kinda. Why aren't their HP bars full ), but more of what the pacing feels like during the cooldowns and divinity down time. Arbiter's mechanic feels fun to regenerate divinity, and even fools me a bit into thinking my at-wills are actually useful, while Devout I know full well that holding tab to regenerate my divinity is doing nothing, and feels like doing nothing.
It feels super bad and slow when the best action to take in a given situation is no action (holding tab is very similar to no action). It's more of a pace of combat issue for me rather than simply an "I don't heal enough" issue.
I have seen a small progress in the healing build this week, thank you for taking some of our thoughts into consideration. The shorter cooldown on healing word is nice (although i would prefer no cast time on healing word as it is now and a cheaper divinity cost) and the divinity is recharging abit better but it is still abit to costly on the abilities and a need to recharge the divinity in combat alot and after it is still too long between fights. I would prefer the current style more of not using so many at wills please than this slow pace, the over usage of at wills kill the momentum alot and hinders more interesting rotations and a nice flow. I still find the buffs are too weak or not enaugh of them. A healer's job is also to help prevent damage and boost dps when needed for the group and understand mechanics of the fight not just damage and resource control/ managment. A smart buff at the right moment can go a long way and make it more interesting for the caster. Like many suggest it would be nice some kind of pip or empowerment etc system for healers also, maybe the stronger buffs could even be built into that if you prefer the people "working" more for them but would need to be nice ones and effective. Ex: a 20% group dps boost for 5 seconds or 20% defence buff or what i prefer doing the most cooldown reductions and action filling of the group (with this slow pace now would be welcome), these values are just random ideas and would need to fit the combat system now naturally. Because this is the main issue i have felt now switching from live to test and vice vesra, on live the flow is really nice for healer or buffer, wich would be important to feel in the new mod. Also i have seen you will readjust the rotation for the dps tree that it doesn't heal more than a healer, thank you I mainly wanted to say something positive and that i see a small progression in the heal tree slowly, it still needs alot of work ex the feats, also the class feature i find the last 3 abit bad like the range healing, the 1% only etc. and proper group buffs less focused bonuses for the player only, cleric is a support group role and heals. I wish you much luck because i would love to feel that playing healer and buffer is fun, useful and powerful, not limited to just spaming heals and waiting for damage or at wills. A dc currently on live feels like you're a powerful and meaningful player in the group. Thanx for your efforts
> @iamsmokingone#2455 said: > Are you in guild? You miss 8k power. Also those stat and eq could be bit better balanced and we don't know if you performed best you could (it gets time to learn how DC operates after changes). Point is that even if we're uncertain you're "BiS" you still managed to solo grouped content. That shouldn't be the case and it proves that eSoT (and other content at this range) is still too easy. It was designed for 5 people after all. > > No i'm not in a guild, she doesn't need one. and i don't see anything wrong with a near endgame character being able to solo one of the easiest 5 man dungeons available. i think simply the fact that i can solo castle never has helped me carry random public groups through that otherwise wouldn't beat it. it makes sense to me that a near BiS character could solo some of the 5 man dungeons, albeait not easily. > > its funny to me that all you can take from my post is a place to judge whether or not my toon is "BiS" or not. as if that is the most important thing. you elitists are all alike
I can’t speak for that poster, but I didn’t read it that way at all. I think they were speaking to dungeon difficulty vs. the kind of character you were using to test and speculating that the dungeon might be undertuned for actual group play (which would be consistent with the current ESOT, and I think that’s fine since it’s an entry-level 70 dungeon).
Often repeat edits from new posters are marked as "likely spam" and need to be reviewed by a moderator before they appear again. @kreatyve@tripsofthrymr@frozenfirevr can you confirm that that's what happening for ODT here and maybe flag his account to avoid this?
Another problem, searing light is stated as hitting enemies in a line, but from 3 days of testing I find this power to only hit 1 target, while forgemasters flame has on several occasions killed 2,3 or even 4 enemies at once yet is stated as single target and FF can still be cast 2x if spammed
Thank you for the report, I'll look into the area of effect for these spells. We've never seen Forgemaster's Flame hit more than one target, and it hits so hard—I feel like someone would have noticed if it had! So that's a bizarre bug, I'll work to track it down, and ensure searing light is hitting multiple targets as well.
I have finished entire new campaign, completed all quests and zones and i have NOT seen FF hitting more then 1 enemy. Hovewer, I can defenately confirm that searing light has problems hitting enemies in line.
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frozenfirevrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,475Community Moderator
Often repeat edits from new posters are marked as "likely spam" and need to be reviewed by a moderator before they appear again. @kreatyve@tripsofthrymr@frozenfirevr can you confirm that that's what happening for ODT here and maybe flag his account to avoid this?
Can you comment on the intent of how a Devout is supposed to recover divinity? I can see the ticks over time if I want to hold tab, and possibly losing a (valuable) encounter slot for DG. Am I missing something else? The feats that give divinity don't feel like they do much.
I think the problem I'm encountering is that Devout feels really unsatisfying not being able to do anything about divinity. On the Arbiter side, you can spend your pips to get divinity. Admittedly this allows for dramatic divinity gain that would overpower Devout's healing. But the distinct lack of any option to do "anything" active when your divinity drains feels really unsatisfying. Throwing your hands up to the sky and slowly walking around feels really depressing.
The answer, though it seems like you already know and are not going to like it—is that is what channel divinity is for. Healers are not supposed to be able to recover their divinity quickly for reasons I have elaborated on quite a bit already, though I'm happy to go over them again if you have trouble finding any of the posts where I address it.
That being said, I'm not unsympathetic, and I'd like to make sure I understand the feedback clearly, so if you are having trouble with divinity, can you tell me more about it? Are you mostly having issues solo? In group play? What powers were you running?
Are you using more than 1 spender in solo play? Have you tried adding non-spenders to your bar as well?
In group play at least, divinity hasn't been a challenge at all in content that isn't having bugs for any of our recent internal playtests, so I am honestly much more concerned that healing is a little too easy and boring at the moment. But if other people are having major divinity issues in party play, I want to hear all about it.
(Admittedly, if your group is doing terrible, and you have divinity issues after desperately healing them for a while, well that's actually intentional!)
Okay, I feel the need to give my 2 cents on this.
I don't think the issue here is whether you can heal enough (although that could be part of the issue). Devout just "feels" slower to play due to the channel divinity requirement.
Arbiter rotation is like at-wills tab encounter at-wills tab encounter encounter at-wills daily etc
Arbiter rotation actually looks like this to me, not that I spend a lot of time with the DC actually.
Single target: Lance of Faith-stack Burning judgement encounter - Forgemaster encounter Devine Glow - radiant judgement filled instantly encounter - BtS or Gaes Lance of Faith- stack Burning judgement If Daily up - Guardian of Faith then Forgemaster
At-wills stack any judgement, when low on Divinity tab, refill Divinity Sacred Flame stack radiant Judgement encounter - BtS or Gaes etc.
frozenfirevr sorry about that, yes i did a few edits and it disapeared and thought it was the connection so saved the draft and tried reposting, now i know ty
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mrvincent1959Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
You took away everything I did as a AC Cleric for buffing the party and all im asking for is a little bit back.
How about for example, a Devout Class Feature or Feat choice that says something like - "Allies who are under your Heal Over Time effects do 5% more damage and take 5% less damage from all sources"?
I need something more to work with to make building my Devout Cleric a little more interesting.
That being said, I'm not unsympathetic, and I'd like to make sure I understand the feedback clearly, so if you are having trouble with divinity, can you tell me more about it? Are you mostly having issues solo? In group play? What powers were you running?
Are you using more than 1 spender in solo play? Have you tried adding non-spenders to your bar as well?
In group play at least, divinity hasn't been a challenge at all in content that isn't having bugs for any of our recent internal playtests, so I am honestly much more concerned that healing is a little too easy and boring at the moment. But if other people are having major divinity issues in party play, I want to hear all about it.
(Admittedly, if your group is doing terrible, and you have divinity issues after desperately healing them for a while, well that's actually intentional!)
I can definitely adjust as you are suggesting. It's mostly been in group content while I was still experimenting, and I did have more than one spender (DL + some heal).
That said, I think @darthtzarr summed it up pretty well. I don't always run out of divinity, but when I need to top up in combat or even between pulls, it just feels bad. Sitting there waiting (or walking slowly behind the group) holding tab is not a satisfying experience.
As I alluded to, I understand that we can't have a limitless divinity pool. I think what I'm trying to articulate is that it feels annoying that you don't have any real active options for recovering divinity should you ever run low.
I would love to see some kind of active mechanic for recovering divinity. Or if the tab mechanic had some kind of interaction with gameplay (like the Arbiter has with the pips). I would argue that you'd need to reduce passive divinity to compensate, but it would feel much better to not be helplessly throwing your hands up and waiting for the holy ticks to do their thing.
Can you comment on the intent of how a Devout is supposed to recover divinity? I can see the ticks over time if I want to hold tab, and possibly losing a (valuable) encounter slot for DG. Am I missing something else? The feats that give divinity don't feel like they do much.
I think the problem I'm encountering is that Devout feels really unsatisfying not being able to do anything about divinity. On the Arbiter side, you can spend your pips to get divinity. Admittedly this allows for dramatic divinity gain that would overpower Devout's healing. But the distinct lack of any option to do "anything" active when your divinity drains feels really unsatisfying. Throwing your hands up to the sky and slowly walking around feels really depressing.
The answer, though it seems like you already know and are not going to like it—is that is what channel divinity is for. Healers are not supposed to be able to recover their divinity quickly for reasons I have elaborated on quite a bit already, though I'm happy to go over them again if you have trouble finding any of the posts where I address it.
That being said, I'm not unsympathetic, and I'd like to make sure I understand the feedback clearly, so if you are having trouble with divinity, can you tell me more about it? Are you mostly having issues solo? In group play? What powers were you running?
Are you using more than 1 spender in solo play? Have you tried adding non-spenders to your bar as well?
In group play at least, divinity hasn't been a challenge at all in content that isn't having bugs for any of our recent internal playtests, so I am honestly much more concerned that healing is a little too easy and boring at the moment. But if other people are having major divinity issues in party play, I want to hear all about it.
(Admittedly, if your group is doing terrible, and you have divinity issues after desperately healing them for a while, well that's actually intentional!)
Okay, I feel the need to give my 2 cents on this.
I don't think the issue here is whether you can heal enough (although that could be part of the issue). Devout just "feels" slower to play due to the channel divinity requirement.
Arbiter rotation is like at-wills tab encounter at-wills tab encounter encounter at-wills daily etc
Arbiter rotation actually looks like this to me, not that I spend a lot of time with the DC actually.
Single target: Lance of Faith-stack Burning judgement encounter - Forgemaster encounter Devine Glow - radiant judgement filled instantly encounter - BtS or Gaes Lance of Faith- stack Burning judgement If Daily up - Guardian of Faith then Forgemaster
At-wills stack any judgement, when low on Divinity tab, refill Divinity Sacred Flame stack radiant Judgement encounter - BtS or Gaes etc.
I actually didn't even think about number of encounters or which powers were being used. The rotation was merely an example of how the Arbiter doesn't ever actually stop doing stuff... not trying to actually mimic an optimal rotation.
Okay, since the questions and comments on ability scores are being studiously, wholesale ignored, I will try a narrower, more direct question. In what manner are we intended to boost our healing output? Is healing calculated as a form of damage thus I should invest in INT and power, possibly crit? Or is healing it's own contained category that I have no access to specifically boost? I do not seem to have the tools at my disposal in my modest means to root out this answer for myself.
Feedback:In both Paragons Paths, 8 of the 10 feats affects just 1 or 2 skills, instead of giving general bonuses for the intended role. This forces us into using certain skills all the time, which makes us less versatile in different situations and feels like you're taking a feat to make certain skills less bad overall, instead of taking a feat because it makes your character better in the role you're selecting. This is something that I don't see in other DPS or Healing classes and what feels like the Clerics are getting the worse nerf out of all classes. Sure, some classes have feats that affect certain powers, but for the cleric, only ONE SET of the five sets of feats for each Paragon are "Boosts", those are the divinity feats.
That means that SEXTEEN of the 20 feats are just extra effects to skills. In addition, those Feats don't give particularly good effects, and they affect skills that are not even that good to begin with, so you are forced to slot whatever skills the feats tells you to and since most of the skills that are affected by said feats are not even good skills, you just take the feats to make them more bearable.
In fact, trying to feel a little more bearable is generally the entire feeling I got from the new DC. Sorry to say that, but I really feel the DCs got the worse nerf out of everyone, mostly because the selling point of the changes to feat trees were that Feats were supposed to be a meaningful change to our characters, and that is not what Clerics are getting now.
Bug(?):Also, Sun burst is not giving extra burning judgement charges. Is this because of the changes before the preview went live? If so, shouldn't that be noted by the person in charge for that? I mean, the purpose of giving us less feats would also be to make it easier to balance, right? And yet, even that feat was kept broken after a simple change?
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silvergryphMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 740Arc User
Okay, since the questions and comments on ability scores are being studiously, wholesale ignored, I will try a narrower, more direct question. In what manner are we intended to boost our healing output? Is healing calculated as a form of damage thus I should invest in INT and power, possibly crit? Or is healing it's own contained category that I have no access to specifically boost? I do not seem to have the tools at my disposal in my modest means to root out this answer for myself.
Power has always added to outgoing healing, and it still will. Heals can also crit. I have asked if there is any hidden rating "opposing" Critical Strike for heals and I am assuming the lack of response indicates there is not. So as far as stats in relation to heals the closest things we have are DEX for crit severity and CHA for recharge speed on heals with cooldowns. I have suggested that they make WIS give a Healing Bonus (incoming AND outgoing instead of just incoming).
Okay, since the questions and comments on ability scores are being studiously, wholesale ignored, I will try a narrower, more direct question. In what manner are we intended to boost our healing output? Is healing calculated as a form of damage thus I should invest in INT and power, possibly crit? Or is healing it's own contained category that I have no access to specifically boost? I do not seem to have the tools at my disposal in my modest means to root out this answer for myself.
Power has always added to outgoing healing, and it still will. Heals can also crit. I have asked if there is any hidden rating "opposing" Critical Strike for heals and I am assuming the lack of response indicates there is not. So as far as stats in relation to heals the closest things we have are DEX for crit severity and CHA for recharge speed on heals with cooldowns. I have suggested that they make WIS give a Healing Bonus (incoming AND outgoing instead of just incoming).
I am aware that power and crit affect heals on life, but it is nice to know this is still the same.
Comments
> this is the arbiter i've been running. i have radiant rank 15 in all offense slots, dark rank 15 in all utility and ruthless rank 15 in all defense. companion has 3 r15 recondite runestones and 3 r15 bonding runestones. r14 terror and elven batttle. ~20.8k IL
> https://imgur.com/a/dhQTECf
> https://imgur.com/a/S7jFW0P
> https://imgur.com/a/MKmKD2g
> https://imgur.com/a/4Gy2HUA
> I saw on another thread about someone soloing esot so i tried it and it was easy, i feel it was about as hard as it should be for someone with her gear. i thought for a moment the boss garakas was actually going to kill me when i almost had him dead....his damage seemed to increase as the fight went on. took 10 min 18 sec and it said i killed 71 enemies and died 0 times. but this dungeon actually felt right. (Epic Shores of Tuern)
Aside from taking a lot longer solo than it does in M15, I think that the ESOT experience is tuned as I expected. I didn’t encounter any scaling issues on my runs.
Garakas has always been an extremely hard hitter for being in such a low dungeon, so I’m not surprised that he can still hurt.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
But I don't want it to suck to play as a Cleric in the open world any more than you do, so let me know how you feel over the coming weeks.
Hey Eolee, thanks so much for returning to clarify your points. I'm glad you're enjoying arbiter, but let me try to put aside some of your fears for Devout if I can, since it seems like you really want to play a healer!
There are some issues with AP gain while healing right now, we're looking into them, and I want to make sure you can gain AP as a healer, just as well as any other role.
In regards to Astral Shield vs. Circle of Power, those two are very different spells. Circle of Power is now just a healing buff zone that the Paladin healer wants to stand in, so it actually makes them "less" mobile as well. That being said, for this week—you'll have the option to take a feat instead of the deprecated wide flare, that allows you to move while channeling astral shield. Let me know what you think.
Ultimately, Astral Shield may not be for everyone, but it is quite powerful currently. Internally, some of our testers have been making good use out of it and enjoying it, that being said, a lot of content is just too easy to heal right now, so I can totally see the point about it being a bit boring. We're looking into making adjustments that should make healing more challenging and exciting.
That being said, I'm not unsympathetic, and I'd like to make sure I understand the feedback clearly, so if you are having trouble with divinity, can you tell me more about it? Are you mostly having issues solo? In group play? What powers were you running?
Are you using more than 1 spender in solo play? Have you tried adding non-spenders to your bar as well?
In group play at least, divinity hasn't been a challenge at all in content that isn't having bugs for any of our recent internal playtests, so I am honestly much more concerned that healing is a little too easy and boring at the moment. But if other people are having major divinity issues in party play, I want to hear all about it.
(Admittedly, if your group is doing terrible, and you have divinity issues after desperately healing them for a while, well that's actually intentional!)
Can you pls look for "Into the Frey" daily that gives HUGE amount of AP to that matter that GF can have his shield up almost always blocking all the incoming damage.
I don't think the issue here is whether you can heal enough (although that could be part of the issue). Devout just "feels" slower to play due to the channel divinity requirement.
Arbiter rotation is like
at-wills
tab
encounter
at-wills
tab
encounter
encounter
at-wills
daily
etc
which translates to a feeling of something like
damage
damage
damage
damage
tab
damage
damage
damage
while devout is more like
at-wills
encounter
encounter
encounter
hold tab
encounter
hold tab
encounter
encounter
hold tab
daily
encounter
which feels more like
heal
heal
heal
waiting
waiting
waiting
waiting
still waiting
heal
waiting
waiting
heal
heal
waiting
shield!
heal
waiting
Waiting feels bad. It's not that I feel like I need to save everyone every half second (well ... I do kinda. Why aren't their HP bars full
It feels super bad and slow when the best action to take in a given situation is no action (holding tab is very similar to no action). It's more of a pace of combat issue for me rather than simply an "I don't heal enough" issue.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
The shorter cooldown on healing word is nice (although i would prefer no cast time on healing word as it is now and a cheaper divinity cost) and the divinity is recharging abit better but it is still abit to costly on the abilities and a need to recharge the divinity in combat alot and after it is still too long between fights.
I would prefer the current style more of not using so many at wills please than this slow pace,
the over usage of at wills kill the momentum alot and hinders more interesting rotations and a nice flow.
I still find the buffs are too weak or not enaugh of them. A healer's job is also to help prevent damage and boost dps when needed for the group and understand mechanics of the fight not just damage and resource control/ managment.
A smart buff at the right moment can go a long way and make it more interesting for the caster.
Like many suggest it would be nice some kind of pip or empowerment etc system for healers also,
maybe the stronger buffs could even be built into that if you prefer the people "working" more for them but would need to be nice ones and effective.
Ex: a 20% group dps boost for 5 seconds or 20% defence buff or what i prefer doing the most cooldown reductions and action filling of the group (with this slow pace now would be welcome), these values are just random ideas and would need to fit the combat system now naturally.
Because this is the main issue i have felt now switching from live to test and vice vesra,
on live the flow is really nice for healer or buffer, wich would be important to feel in the new mod.
Also i have seen you will readjust the rotation for the dps tree that it doesn't heal more than a healer, thank you
I mainly wanted to say something positive and that i see a small progression in the heal tree slowly,
it still needs alot of work ex the feats, also the class feature i find the last 3 abit bad like the range healing, the 1% only etc.
and proper group buffs less focused bonuses for the player only, cleric is a support group role and heals.
I wish you much luck because i would love to feel that playing healer and buffer is fun, useful and powerful, not limited to just spaming heals and waiting for damage or at wills. A dc currently on live feels like you're a powerful and meaningful player in the group.
Thanx for your efforts
> Are you in guild? You miss 8k power. Also those stat and eq could be bit better balanced and we don't know if you performed best you could (it gets time to learn how DC operates after changes). Point is that even if we're uncertain you're "BiS" you still managed to solo grouped content. That shouldn't be the case and it proves that eSoT (and other content at this range) is still too easy. It was designed for 5 people after all.
>
> No i'm not in a guild, she doesn't need one. and i don't see anything wrong with a near endgame character being able to solo one of the easiest 5 man dungeons available. i think simply the fact that i can solo castle never has helped me carry random public groups through that otherwise wouldn't beat it. it makes sense to me that a near BiS character could solo some of the 5 man dungeons, albeait not easily.
>
> its funny to me that all you can take from my post is a place to judge whether or not my toon is "BiS" or not. as if that is the most important thing. you elitists are all alike
I can’t speak for that poster, but I didn’t read it that way at all. I think they were speaking to dungeon difficulty vs. the kind of character you were using to test and speculating that the dungeon might be undertuned for actual group play (which would be consistent with the current ESOT, and I think that’s fine since it’s an entry-level 70 dungeon).
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Hovewer, I can defenately confirm that searing light has problems hitting enemies in line.
Single target:
Lance of Faith-stack Burning judgement
encounter - Forgemaster
encounter Devine Glow - radiant judgement filled instantly
encounter - BtS or Gaes
Lance of Faith- stack Burning judgement
If Daily up - Guardian of Faith then
Forgemaster
At-wills stack any judgement, when low on Divinity
tab, refill Divinity
Sacred Flame stack radiant Judgement
encounter - BtS or Gaes
etc.
sorry about that, yes i did a few edits and it disapeared and thought it was the connection so saved the draft and tried reposting, now i know ty
How about for example, a Devout Class Feature or Feat choice that says something like - "Allies who are under your Heal Over Time effects do 5% more damage and take 5% less damage from all sources"?
I need something more to work with to make building my Devout Cleric a little more interesting.
That said, I think @darthtzarr summed it up pretty well. I don't always run out of divinity, but when I need to top up in combat or even between pulls, it just feels bad. Sitting there waiting (or walking slowly behind the group) holding tab is not a satisfying experience.
As I alluded to, I understand that we can't have a limitless divinity pool. I think what I'm trying to articulate is that it feels annoying that you don't have any real active options for recovering divinity should you ever run low.
I would love to see some kind of active mechanic for recovering divinity. Or if the tab mechanic had some kind of interaction with gameplay (like the Arbiter has with the pips). I would argue that you'd need to reduce passive divinity to compensate, but it would feel much better to not be helplessly throwing your hands up and waiting for the holy ticks to do their thing.
Signature [WIP] - tyvm John
This is something that I don't see in other DPS or Healing classes and what feels like the Clerics are getting the worse nerf out of all classes. Sure, some classes have feats that affect certain powers, but for the cleric, only ONE SET of the five sets of feats for each Paragon are "Boosts", those are the divinity feats.
That means that SEXTEEN of the 20 feats are just extra effects to skills. In addition, those Feats don't give particularly good effects, and they affect skills that are not even that good to begin with, so you are forced to slot whatever skills the feats tells you to and since most of the skills that are affected by said feats are not even good skills, you just take the feats to make them more bearable.
In fact, trying to feel a little more bearable is generally the entire feeling I got from the new DC. Sorry to say that, but I really feel the DCs got the worse nerf out of everyone, mostly because the selling point of the changes to feat trees were that Feats were supposed to be a meaningful change to our characters, and that is not what Clerics are getting now.
Bug(?):Also, Sun burst is not giving extra burning judgement charges. Is this because of the changes before the preview went live? If so, shouldn't that be noted by the person in charge for that? I mean, the purpose of giving us less feats would also be to make it easier to balance, right? And yet, even that feat was kept broken after a simple change?
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